Official BBR Tier List v6

[Tesh]

Its easily +1 Sonic if you time him out. His moves are really pretty, but he can't catch Sonic.

 

[Steam]

this sonic main trolling

 

[Tesh]

lol those edits

 

[Kinzer]

this sonic main trolling

The sad thing is to some degree he means what he says.

and I couldn't agree more. I've been saying it since the start that Lucario was never a bad MU, and while I would never go as far as to suggest outright playing campy, there was never a need to rush in head first for a quick loss.

 

[Steam]

I still feel lucario has a +3 on sonic... it's a matchup the lucario definitely has to know to have that edge though... but aura isn't the only thing that gives lucario the advantage in that matchup :/

I'm just confused... what sonic actually has that matches up with lucario well other than mobility... something that can overcome being completely outranged/disjointed/camped/muscled.

 

[Kinzer]

I'm just confused... what sonic actually has that matches up with lucario well other than mobility... something that can overcome being completely outranged/disjointed/camped/muscled.

He never needs to commit to a thing he does.

Even though it sounds stupid, that's the one saving grace that prevents it from making this matchup unwinnable in the first place.

You leave yourself open, or if you commit to an attack you weren't suppose to, and you'll be lucky to take only 4-8% from the chain.

The wonderful thing is in actual play there's no way any one player can take into account every, single, option Sonic has in his arsenal. You can limit it sure, but you'll never outright take away the (one) appropriate response(s).

... It's just that once you bring that into theory you also have to consider that as players you're limited by human error, and not always do players respond in the way they're suppose to. :/

 

[Steam]

then that can apply to like every character... :/

 

[Shaya]

Steam hating on Sonic instead of Marth?

Must be because Europes real good.

 

[Steam]

: /

I still think sonic should be like 5 places higher than he is currently on the tier list. Sonic is good for the reason kinzer said basically.

 

[Kinzer]

then that can apply to like every character... :/

I'm not aware of another character that has nearly the same multitude of things needed to be taken into consideration.

... Well, someone else besides Meta Knight, obviously.

There are probably some others in the high-tier that do have those qualifications, but then now they're already where they want to be moreorless, now aren't they? Admittedly my knowledge is much more invested in the other half of the cast; it's much easier given that there is only so much they can do, which is why they are where they are.

That is my point entirely though, I'm sure you see it too. There's a trend with characters who have a lot of mobility and options who get rises, while characters with staggering metagame are lucky to stay where they are (we'll ignore lack of representation for this case as well; as it's just a whole other subject which gives its own reasons for placement).

I won't go through the trouble of giving specifics, not to mention another tier list may or may not be coming around sometime soon, so I'd really like to see where that goes and whether or not all of this is true or not... or is at least consistent. If I'm at least on the target then Sonic will see another rise, albeit small this time around.

 

[Steam]

I was saying that that applies to sonic vs. everyone. but i was looking for specific reasons that make the luc v. sonic matchup not as bad compared to his others... unless all of sonic's matchups are improving.

 

[Kinzer]

I was saying that that applies to sonic vs. everyone. but i was looking for specific reasons that make the luc v. sonic matchup not as bad compared to his others... unless all of sonic's matchups are improving.

Aside from Meta Knight and IMO Falco, they have been actually.

... Well actually I dunno about MK. If you ask me, it keeps going back and forth between "oh it's not so bad" and "if the MK players made an active effort to get better he'd be banned by now." It's that same reason of thinking that makes me go back and forth with thinking Sonic Vs. MK is near even, and that there's no way in Hell Meta Knight should ever have to lose (against anyone hurp-a-derp).

Anyway I'm just going on a rant. It's true, this way of thinking does apply to every character for what it's worth. It just so happens that some characters do a better job at making Sonic work harder for his victories. Lucario, as a concept and as a character, is the very bane of Sonic, it just so happens that Lucario's moveset is so absurdly slow that it just becomes a game of prediction; where in this case Lucario can get more rewards for his risks, and may only get the same negative consequences at best.

 

[infiniteV115]

I don't think any of Lucario's moves qualify as "absurdly slow" except his smashes, side-b and upb
Unless you want to count ending lag as well, which woud throw in bair and nair

 

[Steam]

yeah I'm pretty sure lucario's not absurdly slow :I

cept in movement

 

[Kinzer]

yeah I'm pretty sure lucario's not absurdly slow :I

cept in movement

We'll have to agree to disagree then. I've basically trained myself to believing that success in this matchup; from Sonic's perspective at least, is to force Lucario to commit and punish. There's no way Sonic can directly challenge his range, and his kill power is something to be respected but not feared (That's what made everyone believe he was the worst for Sonic for the longest time). Perhaps I should've further specified as well, because what's slow is the attacks that are meant to kill.

Unless I'm uninformed, there's no other way around it, to winning the MU I mean.

 

[Steam]

well it depends what you use... fair is fast and outspaces sonic for the most part but does like no damage.

lucario can also kill with uair, dair... and just about everything when he reaches the % sonic will usually kill him at.

but yeah people getting scared of lucario is why they lose to him for free.

 

[Kinzer]

... Why would anyone be killing or getting killed with Dair? >~<

At least everything else you said I can dig. I have my doubts with Luc's fair but it ain't worth arguing over as there are ways to use it properly and ways that make it punishable, which that can be said for Sonic's stuff too.

 

[Steam]

dair has kill power, is a 4 frame move, and has a giant hitbox. even though it's below him lucario can find ways to land it. especially since at high% is becomes pretty safe and it also has the ability to shield poke.

 

[Exceladon City]

Steam hating on Sonic instead of Marth?

Must be because Europes real good.

Damn, just when I thought you were dead...

well it depends what you use... fair is fast and outspaces sonic for the most part but does like no damage.

lucario can also kill with uair, dair... and just about everything when he reaches the % sonic will usually kill him at.

but yeah people getting scared of lucario is why they lose to him for free.

Fair outspaces everything sans Bair. I could be wrong about that though. I only use Bair when I'm trying to challenge Lucy in the air.

 

[Espy Rose]

Steam forgets to mention how easily you can SDI out of Lucario's dair.
And then punish him because the hitstun is so low.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Steam forgets to mention how easily you can SDI out of Lucario's dair.
And then punish him because the hitstun is so low.

This, for sure.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

dair has kill power, is a 4 frame move, and has a giant hitbox. even though it's below him lucario can find ways to land it. especially since at high% is becomes pretty safe and it also has the ability to shield poke.

It won't be killing unless lucario and opponent both have high percent. So, it's not that great of a kill move.

But, this move makes me hate being under lucario when he is on a platform. Reminds me of link's OoS option off of platforms in smash64.

 

[Steam]

Steam forgets to mention how easily you can SDI out of Lucario's dair.
And then punish him because the hitstun is so low.

it's why I think lucario's dair is really overrated. but I was mentioning why you can't just write it off.

@excel- sonic's bair outranges lucario's fair but luc's fair will out disjoint it.

@xeylode- Dair is probably like... the 3rd strongest move that lucario will actually ever be able to land, after Fsmash and Aurashere. but it's situational just because of how it is... it's best for the stall or to cover your ***. I find myself to be killing with uair/bair a lot though

 

[Deleted member]

Killing with Lucario's nair is so satisfying. :3

 

[Seagull Joe]

Killing with Lucario's nair is so satisfying. :3

The Junebug!

@Abraham: MJG can't namesearch. His name isn't at least 4 letters. I don't think Lounis really namesearches.

How do you SDI 's dair? sucks at SDI lmao...

 

[Steam]

wolf is probably too much of a brick to get out easily. but you DI up. the higher you are in relation to lucario the better chance you have of getting out. it's slightly easier to get out at higher% and sometimes if you're high enough you don't even need to DI. if it's a perfectly spaced Dair though you probably can't get out

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I wonder if Wolf could SDI it downward and escape, especially if the Lucario is trying to space it in a way that would be proper against most characters.

 

[Steam]

I wonder if Wolf could SDI it downward and escape, especially if the Lucario is trying to space it in a way that would be proper against most characters.

it would be hard since the first hit of dair pops you up slightly. I have never seen someone get out of dair that way.

 

[C.J.]

Whenever I manage to SDI out of it, I always get out to the right or left of Lucario.

 

[Steam]

Whenever I manage to SDI out of it, I always get out to the right or left of Lucario.

well you were below him before so you still pretty much DI out of the top.

 

[Browny]

Oh not this **** again.

No you did not SDI lucarios dair, you were hit with the very edge of the hitbox such that the second hit didnt connect. Just like if marth hits you with the tip of db1 and does all 4, you hold away and escape it. If he hit the first swing at close range, you will never escape it.

Honestly its just like people claiming amazing DI to survive an attack when the attack simply did not kill them, no di at all would have survived it. So annoying.

 

[C.J.]

Oh not this **** again.

No you did not SDI lucarios dair, you were hit with the very edge of the hitbox such that the second hit didnt connect. Just like if marth hits you with the tip of db1 and does all 4, you hold away and escape it. If he hit the first swing at close range, you will never escape it.

Honestly its just like people claiming amazing DI to survive an attack when the attack simply did not kill them, no di at all would have survived it. So annoying.

I can believe/accept this.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

What Browny said. You try SDIing a 2 hit attack to avoid the second hit while the attack has a hitbox on, what, frame 4? Get real.

 

[MasterSwordStudio]

Nice List-I Love Olimar's Position! Poor Olimar... He's so underappreciated...

 

[ShadowLink84]

Oh not this **** again.

No you did not SDI lucarios dair, you were hit with the very edge of the hitbox such that the second hit didnt connect. Just like if marth hits you with the tip of db1 and does all 4, you hold away and escape it. If he hit the first swing at close range, you will never escape it.

Honestly its just like people claiming amazing DI to survive an attack when the attack simply did not kill them, no di at all would have survived it. So annoying.

I think it would help if you pointed out that it is the lack of hitstun which means you cannot SDI it.
Much like how with Metaknight's tornado it cannot be SDI'ed due to have only 2(?) frames of stun.

nless it is like Marth's Fsmash with the "cinematic" hitstun.

 

[phi1ny3]

Nice List-I Love Olimar's Position! Poor Olimar... He's so underappreciated...

"Underappreciated" doesn't come close to describing the animosity towards Oli lol.

 

[Linkshot]

Unless it is like Marth's Fsmash with the "cinematic" hitstun.

It's not "cinematic" hitlag. There just an SDI Mod = x0 on it.

 

[Shaya]

That's what we refer to as Cinematic Hitlag.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Am I the only one who couldn't help but laugh at the term "cinematic hitstun"? I don't think Brawl is that bad

 

[Linkshot]

Well, at first thought, "cinematic hitlag" would mean anything where time freezes (hitting multiple targets with the second hitbox of Light Arrow, for example) and absolutely nothing can be done.

With Marth's Final Smash, the only one that is stuck in place is the victim. Other players can still move freely.
Er, and Marth of course.

Just a miscommunication, though. I'll remember for future reference.