Official BBR Tier List v6

[smashkng]

IMO Wario is Ganon's best high tier MU by far. Wario is the only high tier with nothing that completely walls Ganon. All of Wario's approach options can be punished if read. Also grab release to Fsmash kills Wario at around 85% and a lot of his grab release options deal a ton of damage (Ganon can even GR infinite Wario LOL), so Wario can't afford to get grabbed by him.

 

[infiniteV115]

Ganon can GR infinite Wario? Are you sure?
I would like to see evidence for this.

 

[Shaya]

Ganondorf's grab is actually very high in terms of hitbox.

I'm pretty sure he's one of the few characters who can just standing infinite wario.

 

[zmx]

IMO Wario is Ganon's best high tier MU by far. Wario is the only high tier with nothing that completely walls Ganon. All of Wario's approach options can be punished if read. Also grab release to Fsmash kills Wario at around 85% and a lot of his grab release options deal a ton of damage (Ganon can even GR infinite Wario LOL), so Wario can't afford to get grabbed by him.

So in conclusion, Ganon is a top tier character, one Tornado away from being banned.

 

[infiniteV115]

So I guess the reason the MU stayed +2 is because the Warios were like "LOL we're not going to get grabbed by a Ganon!"
Or it WOULD have been +3/4 but the infinite brought it down to +2, because Wario's fart builds up during the infinite or something. And of course edgeguarding gimps and it's Ganon and stuff

Who else can AR infinite Wario? Apparently ZSS can but it's really hard (and I've yet to receive the explanation on how to do it)
Anyone else? Marth? Yoshi?

 

[DeLux]

Doc King, explain the D3 vs IC match-up to me please.

Bumping this because Hylian and I need advice

Or at least I do. D3 is by far my most hated matchup and is autoloss for me in tournament.

 

[Shaya]

I've played D3 against ICs multiple times in tournament as well as semi consistently in friendlies...

It's not that auto loss as you'd think...

*game starts*
*Ics throw ice blocks*
*dedede holds a*
now what?

Then the amazingness of hard read dash grab fthrow/bthrows into amazingness.

Shame him approaching is balls.

 

[DeLux]

Shaya, I'm horrendous in that matchup and even I know that I should desync blizzard that.

But I have guard breaking issues as a player, so if a DDD Bthrows me near the ledge, I more or less cry and get killed.

If my pool at apex is like TL, Peach, Snake, MK, DDD, Rob, ZSS, I'm going to come in last. DDD being the outlier since he's SUPPOSED to be a +2 or +3 and everyone else is we go even to get pooped on

 

[Shaya]

But ftilt out disjoints blizzard!

 

[da K.I.D.]

So I guess the reason the MU stayed +2 is because the Warios were like "LOL we're not going to get grabbed by a Ganon!"
Or it WOULD have been +3/4 but the infinite brought it down to +2, because Wario's fart builds up during the infinite or something. And of course edgeguarding gimps and it's Ganon and stuff

Who else can AR infinite Wario? Apparently ZSS can but it's really hard (and I've yet to receive the explanation on how to do it)
Anyone else? Marth? Yoshi?

Ike can GR him, run under him and pivot grab him from the other side indefinitely.

And then GR in to bair.

 

[Doc King]

Doc King, explain the D3 vs IC match-up to me please.

I don't have much knowledge in the matchup, but imo it is one of D3's hardest matchups. Climbers can chaingrab and combo D3 a lot and D3 has to play safe in the matchup. Climbers can punish D3's poor approaching and he can't really grab the climbers which is D3's biggest thing in his metagame.

D3 has a few good options like swallow on the edge which can make Nana SD pretty easily (There's a vid of a D3 player doing it in tourney), his good ranged attacks like f tilt, his good air game, and his good counterpicks.

Overall it's -2 D3 imo. Such a dangerous matchup for D3.

IMO Wario is Ganon's best high tier MU by far. Wario is the only high tier with nothing that completely walls Ganon. All of Wario's approach options can be punished if read. Also grab release to Fsmash kills Wario at around 85% and a lot of his grab release options deal a ton of damage (Ganon can even GR infinite Wario LOL), so Wario can't afford to get grabbed by him.

I would agree. It's like Ganon's only good character matchup where he can actually do cool stuff.

 

[Coney]

ONE SIDE:

lmfao okay okay i think now people are taking the ddd hate way too far

he's a good character. and he def doesn't get ***** by zero suit. come play me at apex.

if you guys are saying ddd is bad just to troll doc king i am in 100% percent support of that, but this is getting kinda out of control and i'm getting the impression most of you haven't ever really played a good ddd.

OTHER SIDE

Someone needs to step up and show the world that King DDD>Zss and Lucario, especially Zss.

I do agree that someone should improve D3. I've been theorycrafting him like a boss for a while. We just need a D3 salem to show this stuff off.

this is dumb and honestly kind of offensive. there have been three extremely notable ddds in history, all for a pretty decent span of brawl's lifetime, and you're saying none of them have done for the character what salem did in one tournament?

and doc, excuse me, but what in the actual ****? you have been advertising your hella-impractical infinites on characters we already beat for MONTHS and MONTHS. there is a reason that every single ddd in existence brushes off your findings, and its because you present them as this revolutionary pivot in the ddd metagame when all you're doing is infiniting peach on a slope. we beat peach. i have never lost to a peach and i have absolutely no idea why you spend your days trying to find better ways to beat jigglypuff. it's jigglypuff, you moron. back-air.

i honestly hope another prodigy ddd comes along before the end of brawl. i would love to see it. but if you think he's going to be winning because of your findings, you're dead wrong, because if he's honestly good, he won't be losing to these characters anyway.

 

[Doc King]

ONE SIDE:

lmfao okay okay i think now people are taking the ddd hate way too far

he's a good character. and he def doesn't get ***** by zero suit. come play me at apex.

if you guys are saying ddd is bad just to troll doc king i am in 100% percent support of that, but this is getting kinda out of control and i'm getting the impression most of you haven't ever really played a good ddd.

OTHER SIDE





this is dumb and honestly kind of offensive. there have been three extremely notable ddds in history, all for a pretty decent span of brawl's lifetime, and you're saying none of them have done for the character what salem did in one tournament?

and doc, excuse me, but what in the actual ****? you have been advertising your hella-impractical infinites on characters we already beat for MONTHS and MONTHS. there is a reason that every single ddd in existence brushes off your findings, and its because you present them as this revolutionary pivot in the ddd metagame when all you're doing is infiniting peach on a slope. we beat peach. i have never lost to a peach and i have absolutely no idea why you spend your days trying to find better ways to beat jigglypuff. it's jigglypuff, you moron. back-air.

i honestly hope another prodigy ddd comes along before the end of brawl. i would love to see it. but if you think he's going to be winning because of your findings, you're dead wrong, because if he's honestly good, he won't be losing to these characters anyway.

You made it sound like I thought that the characters that D3 can infinite are bad.

I'm just trying to help with D3's metagame and I don't see what's wrong with that. I will admit though I do present it like it's gonna completely change matchups. I just mainly do that because I think it's cool that I found something and I like to brag about it a lot. I think in honesty, this can help a little with our metagame, but it's not gonna change our metagame by a lot. Like Allshort17's forum on the D3 boards says that sometimes even the littlest things can help. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=314322

I've actually found stuff about tech chasing, which can help us with our bad matchups. http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=191110

I'll take back what I said about the salem thing. I just assumed that D3 wasn't getting anywhere because ppl on here said so.

I'm sorry Coney.

 

[Coney]

i understand there's satisfaction in your findings and i definitely think what you're doing is helping the metagame, but if a new ddd comes along, it's not going to be small, incremental changes in winning matchups that are going to be what defines him. each successive ddd took the past notion of ddd and drove it way further than simple technical execution and small, situational ATs

 

[Doc King]

i understand there's satisfaction in your findings and i definitely think what you're doing is helping the metagame, but if a new ddd comes along, it's not going to be small, incremental changes in winning matchups that are going to be what defines him. each successive ddd took the past notion of ddd and drove it way further than simple technical execution and small, situational ATs

I'm kind of having a hard time finding out what you are trying to say. It seems confusing to me.

 

[Coney]

to progress a character isn't just to apply incremental, technical changes. it's taking preconceived notions of the character and turning them on their ear to create a whole new understanding of the character

ultra-super-defensive patient ddd isn't going anywhere. that's what people have been doing for years, that's the style 9B perfected and eventually dropped. unless someone comes along and can do it better than absolutely anyone ever, people have already adapted and prepared for that. for someone to succeed with that kind of style would take far more patience and ability than anyone before them.

 

[infiniteV115]

if you guys are saying ddd is bad just to troll doc king i am in 100% percent support of that, but this is getting kinda out of control and i'm getting the impression most of you haven't ever really played a good ddd.

I was talking **** about DDD to troll Doc King, but I haven't actually played a good DDD. I do think he's overrated, but that's like 100% theorycraft so I won't bother to back it up.

When I heard Tech Chase was coming to SiD5 (a tourney in Toronto on Nov 26th), I immediately challenged him to a MM because I wanted to actually play a good DDD, but he didn't show.

 

[NickRiddle]

So I guess the reason the MU stayed +2 is because the Warios were like "LOL we're not going to get grabbed by a Ganon!"
Or it WOULD have been +3/4 but the infinite brought it down to +2, because Wario's fart builds up during the infinite or something. And of course edgeguarding gimps and it's Ganon and stuff

Who else can AR infinite Wario? Apparently ZSS can but it's really hard (and I've yet to receive the explanation on how to do it)
Anyone else? Marth? Yoshi?

For ZSS, you just... grab again. Standing regrab.
Ike has a boost-pivot-grab thing on Wario.
Yoshi has a standing regrab.
I think those are the only three.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Ike's boost pivot grab is unrealistic.
It's frame perfect and unbufferable.

 

[Doc King]

to progress a character isn't just to apply incremental, technical changes. it's taking preconceived notions of the character and turning them on their ear to create a whole new understanding of the character

ultra-super-defensive patient ddd isn't going anywhere. that's what people have been doing for years, that's the style 9B perfected and eventually dropped. unless someone comes along and can do it better than absolutely anyone ever, people have already adapted and prepared for that. for someone to succeed with that kind of style would take far more patience and ability than anyone before them.

I've never seen anybody put it that way.

For some smashboards ppl it seems that ppl talk D3 way too negatively and other characters too positively. Saying something like D3 is bad and Yoshi is good is really horrid imo. I've never EVER seen a character who's a high tier that's considered a bad character by a community in my life. It kind of makes us look very bad compared to other communities. The only time I've ever seen a good character considered bad besides here was like noob players who don't know what the **** they're talking about. It makes us as a community look like a bunch of raging noob fanboys who just argue bs.

 

[NickRiddle]

Ike's boost pivot grab is unrealistic.
It's frame perfect and unbufferable.

I watched Ryo do it 15 times in a row before he decided to just hit the guy.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Then the Wario did it wrong.

 

[Juushichi]

If it's not what I think should happen, it's wrong. Even if it's happened.

 

[Flayl]

For ZSS, you just... grab again. Standing regrab.
Ike has a boost-pivot-grab thing on Wario.
Yoshi has a standing regrab.
I think those are the only three.

NickRiddle forgetting about Bowser, what a surprise.

 

[NickRiddle]

NickRiddle forgetting about Bowser, what a surprise.

I've... just never heard of that happening, actually.

I'M SORRY I'VE FAILED YOU!

 

[Flayl]

I trash talk you because I love you!

(also it would be nice to see you develop your Bowser a bit)

 

[NickRiddle]

I trash talk you because I love you!

(also it would be nice to see you develop your Bowser a bit)

My Bowser has been developing.
But then, sometimes I'm just trying to grab the ledge backwards with up-b...
And we all know how that goes.

 

[Laem]

I've never seen anybody put it that way.

For some smashboards ppl it seems that ppl talk D3 way too negatively and other characters too positively. Saying something like D3 is bad and Yoshi is good is really horrid imo. I've never EVER seen a character who's a high tier that's considered a bad character by a community in my life. It kind of makes us look very bad compared to other communities. The only time I've ever seen a good character considered bad besides here was like noob players who don't know what the **** they're talking about. It makes us as a community look like a bunch of raging noob fanboys who just argue bs.

Are you kidding
It's widely accepted to hate on every character except MK, and even that happens cuz his aerial mobility sucks hard

 

[infiniteV115]

For ZSS, you just... grab again. Standing regrab.

So you just buffer a regrab? Or does it have to be frame perfect or something

Doesn't really matter, AR-->uair/bair/fair/nair is fine with me lol

 

[NickRiddle]

So you just buffer a regrab? Or does it have to be frame perfect or something

Doesn't really matter, AR-->uair/bair/fair/nair is fine with me lol

It cannot be buffered.
GG.

 

[stingers]

doc king!
mm my ganon vs your ddd at apex =[

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I definitely agree that D3 is much harder than Snake.

For Ganon's better good character matchups, I think it would be debatable for either Snake, Lucario, or Wario for Ganon's best good character matchups.

Edit: Thing glitched up.

Wario kinda has a really dangerous CG back on Ganon. And he has legit combos into it as well.

IDK about Lucario, I'd have to think what other characters Ganon would face. Otherwise I could see this.

 

[Ghostbone]

Ganon's grab range is also pathetic, with his running speed being terrible also, somehow I don't see him grabbing a character who's got to be one of the best at avoiding being grabbed.

Wario's not absolutely terrible for Ganon because Wario doesn't have range, not because Ganon can grab-release infinite or whatever.

 

[Shaya]

As I said, ganon's grab is very high off of the ground. It's niche is somewhat anti-wario. In terms of 'his pivot grab read is sufficiently able to grab a wario who isn't [fast] falling yet'. But that's about it.

 

[Laem]

Ganons should probably substitute walking and dashing for dashattack

 

[~ Gheb ~]

DDD isn't harder for Ganon than Snake.

And Diddy is arguably Ganon's best high tier+ match-up. Wario is kinda up to if the player can do the CG, if he can it's worse than Diddy if he can't it's a little easier.

 

[Doc King]

DDD isn't harder for Ganon than Snake.

And Diddy is arguably Ganon's best high tier+ match-up. Wario is kinda up to if the player can do the CG, if he can it's worse than Diddy if he can't it's a little easier.

I find it very hard for Ganon to fight Diddy when he's so bad at approaching and he can't really air combat or glide toss or anything. Ganon is gonna have a hard time approaching and doing stuff on Diddy. Definately not the best good character matchup for ganon. I find Snake, Lucario, and Wario a little bit easier.

DDD has such a dangerous edge game on Ganon. If you roll or get up attack, your dead. If you mess up in the air, you're either dead or severely punished. Other things to add are slope infinites, broken chaingrab, outranging, and even camping. One mistake and you have a good chance of dying right off the bat. Also chaingrab can easily send Ganon off the stage so it makes it one mistake and you have a horrid position on D3.

D3 is definitely better than Snake at the Ganon matchup.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Doc King, at least stop talking about other characters when you don't know them. DDD is not harder for Ganon than Snake is. Snake is ****ing terrible for Ganon.

 

[Xubble]

Ganon can actually APPROACH D3. And don't tell me "Waddle Dee Toss." A good Snake can camp a Ganon all day. I've seen a match where the Snake NEVER took a hit. It was incredible ****.

 

[Steam]

guys pretty much every high tier can just completely shut ganon down. it's just a matter of how easily. like lucario is one of ganon's easiest high tier matchups and he pretty much needs a hard read to even get in... and even when he gets in... lucario is better inside and can get crazy amounts of damage off of strings.