Official BBR Tier List v5

[Seevea]

Ha finally i can officially man sheik AND zelda at the same time!

 

[ShadowLink84]

Fox...isnt that good.
I mean really, he has such HORRID matchups. Oh they aren't common? BIG DEAL THAT DOESNT ELIMINATE HIM HAVING SUCH HORRID MATCHUPS!

When people start realizing that Fox is rather predictable, I think they wil do better against him. I honestly cant see why MK users are having issues with the character. Lazyness I am sure.

 

[Spelt]

fox vs mk is even

 

[YagamiLight]

When people start realizing that Fox is rather predictable, I think they wil do better against him.

Just because you know that the 8 frame kill move is coming ever since you hit 95% doesn't make it any weaker.

Fox is predictable in the same sense that you know that Ike is going to jab you if you're right in front of him. I applaud your knowledge and jab you anyway.

 

[-Mars-]

Fox...isnt that good.
I mean really, he has such HORRID matchups. Oh they aren't common? BIG DEAL THAT DOESNT ELIMINATE HIM HAVING SUCH HORRID MATCHUPS!

When people start realizing that Fox is rather predictable, I think they wil do better against him. I honestly cant see why MK users are having issues with the character. Lazyness I am sure.

This post......just wow. Doesn't even deserve a response.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

We will see about that. You sound ridiculous.

Not really. There is in fact no proof. Nothing changed. Fox still has his bad MUs, they don't suddenly go away because they are uncommon. Heck, in some areas they could be rather common for all we know. You don't get to use "they aren't commonly played" as an argument. His tournament results are still under Wolf's. He hasn't suddenly placed well at several large tournaments like Ike and to a lessor extent ZSS did. There has been no ground breaking new AT.

Nothing.Changed.At.All.

Please explain how no change at all = +5 spots. Must be some funky new math I haven't heard about before.

This is the exact same argument we had about Pit, except Pit at least had almost reasonable theorycrafting behind it. "We changed the rules we use to judge by, we think his planking is good". Fox? "He jumps high, goes PEW PEW PEW, and might do better against MK but will probably end up like every other character who does "good" against MK for several months and then is brought back down to earth once the MU is relearned on the MK side of things."

Or, in a much more arrogant, blunt, self-centered way of putting things: I was eventually proven right about PT being too high and it just being Reflex. I was right about Pit being too high. So far, I have a great track record for judging overhypes.

Pick either argument you like better: logic or emotion. *shrugs*

 

[Albert.]

Oh Hi I'm shadowlink and I'm going to make assertions that aren't proven by concrete evidence

Oh Hi I'm niddo and I'm slightly right about inconsequential nonsense

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Ike would still be in low tier if not for one player.

C/D?

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Tournament results are important. Of course, they are not the only important factor in tier lists, but they are still very important. If you're ignoring tournament results, you're basing a tier list solely on theorycraft. We aren't playing that game and I wouldnt want a tier list of that.

Tournament results can help, but I don't think they should factor into the list because it would become a never ending change in the tier list better.

However, I do believe that tournament data can help. We can use tournament data to better understand matchups, which in turn will help make the tier list.

Also, have you forgotten that D3(MK, Falco, Olimar, Pit, Fox, Pikachu) and Wario(Marth, D3, Snake, Peach) have MORE bad matchups than Fox(Pkachu, Ice Climbers, ZSS), and they are MORE common. A character that has bad matchups does not mean they can't be a high tier character. It's about who has the better matchups throughout the cast. D3 and Wario are better because they have better "base" features, and they beat more of the cast than Fox.

 

[san.]

Ike would still be in low tier if not for one player.

C/D?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=284937

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=285841

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uz5CzS1NWB8

 

[Chuee]

ZSS isn't a bad MU for Fox lol.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike would still be in low tier if not for one player.

C/D?

C most likely, due to Inui landing him that low in the first place. Though it could also depend on how much Dr.Doom would have raised up Ike by himself. Might have been enough to just get Ike past Lucas, with Bowser dropping below him, into Mid tier. *shrugs* It's unknown.

Wario(Marth, D3, Snake, Peach)

Not going to touch D3, don't know as much about him, but from what I remember/remember seeing, only Marth out of that list is actually bad for Wario. D3 I've seen as low as 45:55 for a while now. Snake was around the same range, as was Peach IIRC. Not as sure about the last one.

There is also the issue about just how bad the MUs are when it comes to the rest of that post. What would you rather have? 3 35:65 MUs, 2 3:7 MUs, or 1 2:8 MU?

 

[OpFor]

i think ic should of stayed 5

 

[NickRiddle]

ZSS isn't a bad MU for Fox lol.

This.
Don't know why everybody keeps saying it is.

 

[ShadowLink84]

fox vs mk is even

I laughed.

Just because you know that the 8 frame kill move is coming ever since you hit 95% doesn't make it any weaker.

Um, how does this at all counter the fact hat he is predictable.
I hit 95%. Oh great, what is Fox going to do. Usmash.
Just stand there, wait for it, punish accordingly.

It is why Sonic's kill moves are bad. Not because they are weak, they are average in power, but because of the fact that they are predictable. If Sonic is in the air and has his back to you, what is going to come out?

Fox is int he air, his back is towards you. Bair.
Fox is on the ground. Usmash.
Fox is above you, gee I wonder what he is going to do.

Honestly, everyone harps on about Fox's potential this, Fox's potential that, when as DMG pointe dout before, they don't even remain Fox against his bad matchups nor against MK. Obviously, everyone is just knee jerking, again. You think they would learn their lesson after the last 6 hype ups.

Fox is predictable in the same sense that you know that Ike is going to jab you if you're right in front of him. I applaud your knowledge and jab you anyway.

no, no just NO!

You know Ike is going to jab, but its much harder to deal with it because he is gong t jab you when you are close to him first of all, and the fact is jab is twice as fast as Fox's Usmash.

One move is well below reaction time, the other is just under reaction time, but is typically used in a situation where you can react to it.

Dair? SDI it and you never get killed by it. Debug code tested as well.
Dashing Usmash? Predictable.
Bair? He is in the air with his back to you, god knows what is going to come out.

FOx=predictable. Stop being lazy.

Idiocy.

Case Fox's palcement is completely justified by tournament data.
Oh and the fact that the person who uses him, does not even stay as Fox against his LOL matchups. Obviously, Fox is nowhere near as good as everyone hypes him up to be.
Let's come back to reality, or is the community going to hype Fox as they did everyone else in the past?

 

[Chuee]

lmao at Fox being predictable.

 

[iRJi]

Are you seriously saying you will not be hit by Fox's Usmash because it's predictable? I guess everyone who gets hit by Falco's Usmash is dumb then, since it comes out the same frame. If I am getting it wrong, please say so now. This is me seriously asking if that is what you are saying.

 

[Justblaze647]

Please explain how no change at all = +5 spots.

lol

I like this part

 

[Spelt]

I laughed.

oh yeah sorry, it's only fox mains and meta knight mains who believe it's even.

It's like everyone thinks they're automatically knowledgeable about Fox because they can make assumptions about matchups and know who the best players of said character is.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Are you seriously saying you will not be hit by Fox's Usmash because it's predictable? I guess everyone who gets hit by Falco's Usmash is dumb then, since it comes out the same frame. If I am getting it wrong, please say so now. This is me seriously asking if that is what you are saying.

No, because the circumstances behind Falco and Fox's Usmash is different.
Falco has a laser that causes stun. Fox does not, and it makes a big difference.

With Falco, you know the Usmash is coming, but you have to deal with his laser because it places you a bad situation.

Understand better?

lmao at Fox being predictable.

Yeah cause Fox is the king of mixups. *eyeroll*
Smashers are flat out lazy, its why they still dont tech Sonic's Dthrow.

oh yeah sorry, it's only fox mains and meta knight mains who believe it's even.

It's like everyone thinks they're automatically knowledgeable about Fox because they can make assumptions about matchups and know who the best players of said character is.

just like how they said Snake possibly had an advantage right?
And Diddy.
Oh and Falco.
And IC's.


In fact, let us entertain the idea of them being even.
MK is obviously the most heavily played character. At Apex, every screen had an MK.
Let us say Fox is even with MK. Why hasn't Fox been placing better? If he went even with MK, certainly we would see SOME indication of Fox performing better in tournaments, even more so since MK eliminates his bad matchups.

Get butthurt more that not everyone is on the hype train.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

There is also the issue about just how bad the MUs are when it comes to the rest of that post. What would you rather have? 3 35:65 MUs, 2 3:7 MUs, or 1 2:8 MU?

Yes, I know, I agree, but none of the matchups have actually been acurrately charted character for character. If we made the tier list based on tournamnet results AND matchups it would be better. It would be like taking an open book test. The BBR could have the matchup cheat sheet with all of the matchups and accurately represented in the current metagame, and then decide the list. Much of the list is theory-crafted like you said earlier.

 

[san.]

This.
Don't know why everybody keeps saying it is.

Which Foxes have you played, Nick? Is this opinion more from personal experience?

 

[Spelt]

shielding is impossible after being hit with a laser?

this is news to me.

 

[Chuee]

Yeah cause Fox is the king of mixups. *eyeroll*
Smashers are flat out lazy, its why they still dont tech Sonic's Dthrow.

He has plenty of mixups.
You just think that everytime Fox is above he's going to Dair and his only approach is Dair.

 

[Spelt]

He has plenty of mixups.
You just think that everytime Fox is above he's going to Dair and his only approach is Dair.

obviously shadowlink is the only one that realizes that fox doesn't have access to as many moves as the rest of the cast do.


wait.........

just like how they said Snake possibly had an advantage right?
And Diddy.
Oh and Falco.
And IC's.

Welcome to an evolving meta game.
things change.

In fact, let us entertain the idea of them being even.
MK is obviously the most heavily played character. At Apex, every screen had an MK.
Let us say Fox is even with MK. Why hasn't Fox been placing better? If he went even with MK, certainly we would see SOME indication of Fox performing better in tournaments, even more so since MK eliminates his bad matchups.

Get butthurt more that not everyone is on the hype train.

he has been placing better recently.
i'm sure multiple people have said this multiple times.

 

[ShadowLink84]

He has plenty of mixups.
You just think that everytime Fox is above he's going to Dair and his only approach is Dair.

Uh, no, don't stick words to suit your argument.
Fox is above you, best option? Bair, because it keeps you in your shield, the problem is the range of it. When Fox leaps from his position, he can cover, at most, 1/4th of FD. Presming he does not double jump.
We know for a fact that FOx will bair as late as posible, So if you shield, he is safe and can avoid punishment or even punish afterwards. Dair gets SDI'ed so its not avery good option at higher eprcents when he needs a kill.

Thing is, you can move and shield comes up in ONE frame in comparison to his Bair which is 9(?) frames in speed.

Let alone this isn't super theory brawl, Fox isn't going to perform perfectly and punish everything under the moon, otherwise we would say the same for Fox, and plenty of characters are capable of simply moving away to land camp in front of him.
Again, i do think you overestimate his abilities far too greatly, even more so considering he hasn't moved anywhere which honestly makes me wonder where the hype train is coming from.

shielding is impossible after being hit with a laser?

this is news to me.

No. *flicks*
I said it puts you in a bad situation, not that it was a true combo. It is much like Sonic's Spindash to Bair. SDI allows you to avoid it, but it places you in a poor situation.

Very little is guaranteed in Brawl.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Seeing this arguement of wether Fox is Garbage or not is really funny. If you want to complain about a character go on a 5 page long arguement about... Lucario or some other Furry.

 

[Chuee]

^Yeah, and when you think he's going to Bair....................
he FF ADs and grabs.
Oh look!
A mixup!

 

[ShadowLink84]

obviously shadowlink is the only one that realizes that fox doesn't have access to as many moves as the rest of the cast do.

I like this, ad hominem.
Good stuff.

Welcome to an evolving meta game.
things change.

It is called...using one's brain.

Snake has an advantage over MK.
Sl84: No he doesn't.
You and the rest of the community: STFU you know nothing.

Same thing with Diddy.
Same thing with Sonic.
Same thing with Falco.
Same thing with Wario.

Yeah, sorry but no.

he has been placing better recently.
i'm sure multiple people have said this multiple times.

Meanwhile, cause you guys are blind, those same FOx''s you are about SWITCH to avoid his bad matchups.

If we are going to blatantly ignore that, I demand everyone be placed in top tier with MK because of the ability to have a secondary.

In fact, shall cease arguing about it, l'll wait for 6 months and watch everyone go "**** Fox didn't work out"

^Yeah, and when you think he's going to Bair....................
he FF ADs and grabs.
Oh look!
A mixup!

People fall for it when Sonic pulls off a Dair before it as well. Dair~AD

Sonic +5 now plox?
I mean he falls faster than FOx and is just as limted in his landing placement.

 

[Sinister Slush]

In fact, shall cease arguing about it, l'll wait for 6 months and watch everyone go "**** Fox didn't work out"

^
This This This (Yoshi goes up to D tier)
Instead of running off to characters like MK Snake or Diddy give the others a chance (look how Ike turned out) and see if you can place Well enough for top 8 or 4 rather then switching mains just to gain money.

 

[NickRiddle]

Which Foxes have you played, Nick? Is this opinion more from personal experience?

Opinion.
I've played against Foxes, probably not notable ones, and it isn't easy. -.-

besides, MUs are basically opinion anyways. That's why the numbers change.

 

[ShadowLink84]

^
This This This (Yoshi goes up to D tier)
Instead of running off to characters like MK Snake or Diddy give the others a chance (look how Ike turned out) and see if you can place Well enough for top 8 or 4 rather then switching mains just to gain money.

Eh we're all scrubs for not going MK XD

 

[Spelt]

No. *flicks*
I said it puts you in a bad situation, not that it was a true combo. It is much like Sonic's Spindash to Bair. SDI allows you to avoid it, but it places you in a poor situation.

Very little is guaranteed in Brawl.

you could probably get out jab before he usmashes (or grabs).
not really a bad situation, at all.
of course, you could read/predict the opponent, but so can fox.

It is called...using one's brain.

Snake has an advantage over MK.
Sl84: No he doesn't.
You and the rest of the community: STFU you know nothing.

Same thing with Diddy.
Same thing with Sonic.
Same thing with Falco.
Same thing with Wario.

Yeah, sorry but no.

this doesn't deserve a real reply because it's basically just saying the same thing over again.

Meanwhile, cause you guys are blind, those same FOx''s you are about SWITCH to avoid his bad matchups.

If we are going to blatantly ignore that, I demand everyone be placed in top tier with MK because of the ability to have a secondary.

In fact, shall cease arguing about it, l'll wait for 6 months and watch everyone go "**** Fox didn't work out"

TKD has used fox to fight tyrant and other notable MKs and won.
NAKAT has used fox against holy and won (i think? he won 1-2 matches, at least).

We are talking about MK here, which isn't a counter.
I am not arguing that fox doesn't have problems with pikachu/sheik, nor is anyone else.

And while we're at it, pikachu also counters falco, as well as anyone who has a half decent planking game.
guess he should be mid tier eh?

Sonic +2 now plox?
I mean he falls faster than FOx and is just as limted in his landing placement.

fix'd

 

[Chuee]

Meanwhile, cause you guys are blind, those same FOx''s you are about SWITCH to avoid his bad matchups.

I know that Zeton doens't.
I only remember TKD going MK when he got CPed to RC or Brinstar.
Nakat? Know he seconds MK, but I don't know if he uses him for bad MU's or not.

 

[Nefarious B]

It's not really about how Foxes (or anyone) has been placing, it's who they've been beating. They haven't been beating good players who play their counters, as far as I am aware. So yeah, the bad matchups are still there.

That being said, I don't think anyone around Fox's level in the tier list has been doing substantially better than him either.

 

[Ripple]

lets compare shall we?

better over all options : MK
better recovery: MK
better gimping power: MK
better keep away : depends, MK if he's winning, fox if he's winning
better approach : MK
better kill options : fox
projectile : fox
punish: fox

MK advantage. it doesn't matter what you SEE people do. MK should have an advantage

That being said, I don't think anyone around Fox's level in the tier list has been doing substantially better than him either.

DK is actually doing quite well thanks to will

 

[ShadowLink84]

I know that Zeton doens't.
I only remember TKD going MK when he got CPed to RC or Brinstar.
Nakat? Know he seconds MK, but I don't know if he uses him for bad MU's or not.

TKD has switched several times, DMG can confirm I believe.
Nakat? I am not sure about him either unfortunately. I'll look into it.

you could probably get out jab before he usmashes (or grabs).
not really a bad situation, at all.
of course, you could read/predict the opponent, but so can fox.

Some characters have a greater margin of error when it comes to prediction.

Let's not play the whole "everyone is equal" BS when we know they are not.

I have no emthod by which to counter your statement.

Fix'd

TKD has used fox to fight tyrant and other notable MKs and won.

TKD has been known to switch as well.
Care to explain?
Oh and he won, great, I remember the time Malcolm managed to beat m2k.
I remember Sonic users beating notable MK's. Everyone remember when m2k was taken to game 5?

I love selective memory!

Sonic 5-5. Get at me people.
Rocking the same logic as you.

NAKAT has used fox against holy and won (i think? he won 1-2 matches, at least).

Then lost the rest. AWESOME

We are talking about MK here, which isn't a counter.

MK doesn't counter a ton of characters.
In fact, some characters counter others much more harshly than MK does.

Doesn't change the fact that Fox stil loses.
When Is ee Fox users winning tournaments consistently, I'll be more inclined to agree with you.

I am not arguing that fox doesn't have problems with pikachu/sheik, nor is anyone else.

Okay then you have to admit that the +5 rise is not justified. COnsidering DK suffers hard counters as well and look where he is, so obviously something is going wrong here.

Oh by the way, Dk was considered evenw ith MK for a moment too!

And while we're at it, pikachu also counters falco, as well as anyone who has a half decent planking game.
guess he should be mid tier eh?

Personally? I'd drop him several spots if we consider no LGL.

So keep that in mind.

 

[NAKAT]

I beat Holy 2-1 Fox vs MK SPELT. I use MK on bad cp's for Fox stages/death mu's only time I used Fox on a bad stage (Brinstar) was against Inui and I still won.

 

[Spelt]

Some characters have a greater margin of error when it comes to prediction.

Let's not play the whole "everyone is equal" BS when we know they are not.

both usmashes are 8 frames, seems pretty equal to me.

TKD has been known to switch as well.
Care to explain?

Ok? what does this have to do with anything? did he switch during his matches with tyrant? no.
again, i'm not talking about his counters.
It's like talking to to a brick wall...

Oh and he won, great, I remember the time Malcolm managed to beat m2k.
I remember Sonic users beating notable MK's. Everyone remember when m2k was taken to game 5?

I love selective memory!

Sonic 5-5. Get at me people.
Rocking the same logic as you.

but ... this has nothing to do with anything. >_<
you were talking about how foxes switch for their counters, and i brought up examples of fox mains not switching against MK, which is who we were originally talking about.
Please stay on track. and stop changing the topics to fit your needs. we're talking about fox vs mk, not fox vs pikachu, not sonic vs mk.

MK doesn't counter a ton of characters.
In fact, some characters counter others much more harshly than MK does.

obviously.

Doesn't change the fact that Fox stil loses.
When Is ee Fox users winning tournaments consistently, I'll be more inclined to agree with you.

When do any mid tiers win tournaments consistently? maybe place consistently, but fox does that just fine.

Okay then you have to admit that the +5 rise is not justified. COnsidering DK suffers hard counters as well and look where he is, so obviously something is going wrong here.

Oh by the way, Dk was considered evenw ith MK for a moment too!

Fox is just generally a better character than DK.

Personally? I'd drop him several spots if we consider no LGL.

So keep that in mind.

ditto.
but what about pikachu?

I beat Holy 2-1 Fox vs MK SPELT. I use MK on bad cp's for Fox stages/death mu's only time I used Fox on a bad stage (Brinstar) was against Inui and I still won.

Okay, thanks for the clarification.

 

[NAKAT]

**** in here is mad intense calm down people.