Official BBR Tier List v5

[Browny]

^^

If I had a dollar for everytime someone thought Sonic had a good MU vs MK because of someone beating a top MK, I'd have $0.

 

[Espy Rose]

Australian currency is very colorful.

 

[SuSa]

^^

If I had a dollar for everytime someone thought Sonic had a good MU vs MK because of someone beating a top MK, I'd have $0.

Shugo vs Overswarm, an eternity ago.

Spoiler

Oh wait, you said top MK

 

[GTZ]

^^

If I had a dollar for everytime someone thought Sonic had a good MU vs MK because of someone beating a top MK, I'd have $0.

HAHAHAHAHAHA, good one :-p

venue fee $5
losing money match to m2k, $10
singles pool fee, $10
the look on that players face as he realized just how terrible any characters matchup is against MK, especially a blue rodent wearing tennis shoes...PRICELESS

There are some lessons that can't be learned without being an idiot first, but for everything else, Browny clarifies it for you

but I guess a GOOD Sonic (exists? maybe? IDK) could beat a "decent" MK, but not an M2K.. lol

 

[Espy Rose]

Good Sonics beat decent Meta Knights all the time.
Or...they did several months ago...

 

['V']

I guess people forgot about X beating Tyrant and taking M2K to game 5...

 

[Kitamerby]

Good Sonics beat decent Meta Knights all the time.
Or...they did several months ago...

Try last year, back when the good Sonics hadn't switched to other characters yet, har har.

 

[Espy Rose]

I guess people forgot about X beating Tyrant and taking M2K to game 5...

It's within reason to forget. After all, including all of his reported tournaments since January of 2010, X is currently 2-2 in game sets with Tyrant.

And going to Game 5 vs. M2K is friggin' incredible, true, but:

If I had a dollar for everytime someone thought Sonic had a good MU vs MK because of someone beating a top MK, I'd have $0.

Unfortunately, almost doesn't cut it.

Dude's also been inactive since July 17th. So yeah, it's within reason that people would forget/stop caring after awhile.

@Kita: The best part is that they're still not beating the Meta Knights.

 

[Browny]

Wow I knew this would happen

... someone thought Sonic had a good MU vs MK ...

I never said he didnt beat top MK's, but no one was delusional enough to think Sonic actually had a good matchup vs him. Even when X took M2K to game 5 and beat him on rainbow cruise, no one would have honestly thought Sonic does well against MK rofl. 40:60 maybe? It all comes down to perceptions of how close a 4:6 is etc.

The point being, Sonic mains were never as far deluded like fox/yoshi/bowser/ic/pika/ mains to actually suggest he goes 45:55 or even with MK. Then of course theres the sheik mains... lol

 

[GTZ]

shiek.. so feathered.. it hurts.. or lack therof

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Hey........that's mean.

 

[Browny]

Yeah it is.

But really... beating MK on some stages? You'll have to excuse me if I find the fact a low-mid tier character legitimately beating the most broken character in smash history a little hard to swallow

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Welp, if we begin theory-crafting...........Sheik has

-A Ftilt-lock to rack quick damage, which, if done frame-perfect, is a true lock on all characters
-Awesome needles
-A chain, that in theory, can beat everything MK has, as well as some glitches to further increase the stupidity of said move
-A true infinite, though extremely impractical.
-A true kill setup that not even MK can survive around 80 + a pummel or two
-Frame data that is comparable "at times" if your looking move for move.

In super theory bros, it appears Sheik decimates MK; however, this is not that game. Putting all this to use against MK is once in a lifetime likely.

 

[DMG]

In super theory bros, MK would PS to Upb you anytime you tried to attack him

Or he would Dtild/Ftilt

And then grab the edge where you are useless

YAY SUUUUUUUPER THEORY BROS

 

[#HBC | Scary]

LOL........

No you.

Because in super theory bros........camping under a platform with "perfect" chain wins. So to FD you say? Chain camping murders that and we have our impractical infinite and simple GR DACUS.

YAY SUUUUUUUPER THEORY BROS

 

[DMG]

1. MK has moves that go through chain. SURPRISE SURPRISE MOTHA ****A

2. Platform doesn't matter.

3. MK can PS Chain to attack. This IS theory remember. If you wiggle the chain to move it, he can still PS it.

4. MK then proceeds to hit you with an attack, then runs to the edge or IDC's if your theory will allow it.

5. MY THEORY IS STRONGER SON, GET AT DAT MK

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Reply in order......

1. No, he doesn't. We're out of shuttle loop range. Nothing else should get through, as it is PERFECT CHAIN LOL.

2. A platform matters as a tiny obstacle. Let's say you tried glide attacks from directly above and there was the slight chance it could hit us........platform has our back.

3. True, he can PS, and feasibly do a shuttle loop. Chain hits on every other frame. "Ankoku....am I right?" I actually think I lose on #3. Must test lol.

4. IDC requires the player to not be human for 8 minutes. Though this is theory, meaning IDC for 8 minnutes is reasonable, it simply cannot be done by a person for 8 min. Admittingly, if Sheik is trailing....I lose #4.

5. Your theory is soft like baby ****! Yea.......I said it.

lol.....where is this going?

 

[DMG]

Moving the chain "perfectly" requires you not to be human

Hence MK craps on Shiek IRL harder than a homeless man in the confessional booth

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Ouch........not really that bad.

Somewhere between 40-60 and 45-55 at best. Leaning more toward the 40-60 though.

 

[Browny]

wouldnt downb beat chain lol?

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Interrupted by chain. Actually been there and done this.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Can't you simply...I don't know...
...just jump over Shiek and attack her from above/behind?

 

[KillerJawz]

Can't you simply...I don't know...
...just jump over Shiek and attack her from above/behind?

The only post I've actually wanted to read more then once.

Seriously, what Rick said. Whilst her chain does go behind/above her, it never stays there, and there is a constant opening for an attack, even if it involves trading hits (which will always be in MK's damage favor). Her chain still leaves her vulnerable and what with the chain's painful ending lag, you're pretty much going to get punished for using it.

 

[Orion*]

I like Fox as C tier both because I think he belongs there and because it detracts the trolls away from ZSS bumping up to B.

you wish<3

Shugo vs Overswarm, an eternity ago.

Spoiler

Oh wait, you said top MK

i loled xD

if IDC was legal i would learn to do it for 8 minutes, just saying

EDC is awesome, but sadly theres no real way to make it legal :/

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Wow I knew this would happen



I never said he didnt beat top MK's, but no one was delusional enough to think Sonic actually had a good matchup vs him. Even when X took M2K to game 5 and beat him on rainbow cruise, no one would have honestly thought Sonic does well against MK rofl. 40:60 maybe? It all comes down to perceptions of how close a 4:6 is etc.

The point being, Sonic mains were never as far deluded like fox/yoshi/bowser/ic/pika/ mains to actually suggest he goes 45:55 or even with MK. Then of course theres the sheik mains... lol

Pika is the only one on that list I would see having a shot at a 45:55, ok maybe IC too but I doubt it since I think MK can do worse to them than Pika.

I remember when a bunch of MK's thought Lucario was 45:55 or 50:50, *sigh* those days when MK's didn't know the match-up.

 

[GTZ]

My main has a terrible time against MK, like truly terrible.. I am forced to constantly bacon pressure + jab and can never quite approach correctly.. then of course there's his ******** attacks and blinding speed... I main G&W, and he seems to be slowly falling down since 2008... It's sad really, that in Brawl there is such a defined top tier character, but at the same time, maybe there are still things to be learned.. Maybe everyone should have their mains, and then side main MK, that way, everyone would get bored and stop using him.. [insert failed attempt].. *sigh*

 

[Tesh]

Pika is the only one on that list I would see having a shot at a 45:55, ok maybe IC too but I doubt it since I think MK can do worse to them than Pika.

I remember when a bunch of MK's thought Lucario was 45:55 or 50:50, *sigh* those days when MK's didn't know the match-up.

Perhaps if we can force MKs to forget the matchup, we can balance the metagame.

 

[Meru.]

I'm still trying to understand the weird logic with Pit, Pokemon Trainer, and Fox on this list.

The BBR understood people were upset over the fact Pit got a rise off of the potential talking of a few members, which had little to no proof or a little thoerycraft to back it up. He was risen over multiple characters who had proven there own placement yet were shafted. He was lowered respectfully.

Then we get to Pokemon Trainer and Fox, so Reflex is an outlier for PT they say Reflex is the only one getting results so Pokemon Trainer, then Fox has TKD and maybe Zeton has an outlier...and he gets a 5 spot boost...I can kinda understand this one more than Pit since Fox actually has more respectful results to help back him up, but not to the extent he received. I don't get how Pokemon Trainer get lowered saying he has an outlier, yet Fox gets a buffer when he has the same thing as PT.

So theory craft is the only way to make a good argument for them, which I could see Fox getting more hype...but the fact he has 3 Mu's where he has major problems is something that I don't think should let him drop this far. DK has one MU where he has an LOL time, Fox has 3 MU's while individually aren't as bad as the DK one, still put together is a pretty big deal when we are considering the character is going to be used in a singles bracket.

DDD has a infinite or a side step on DK, Pikachu has a 0-death on Fox.

I'm not seeing much of a legit reasoning over a 5+ raise the more I took time to think about it.

Agreed. Im surprised Fox isnt so controversial, he didnt deserve to get this high at all.

I guess we're used to it, after Pit...?

 

[deepseadiva]

Thing is, I think he's gonna stay up there.

I really don't see him doing worse to justify a drop.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Fox is completely different from Pit. lol

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Thing is, I think he's gonna stay up there.

I really don't see him doing worse to justify a drop.

Pit didn't "do worse", he simply stayed the way he always was, and was dropped back down.

Fox ain't going to prove he belongs there. And then he'll drop back down and somebody else in that area will get stupidly overhyped.

 

[-Mars-]

In super theory bros, MK would PS to Upb you anytime you tried to attack him

Or he would Dtild/Ftilt

And then grab the edge where you are useless

YAY SUUUUUUUPER THEORY BROS

MK can PS to Upb needles? **** that is insane.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Fox is very good. Idk why you don't see that. He has the best walking speed in the game, a very good camp game, and most of his main players are doing very well - not that tournament results should count imo. Trevonte is one of the best Foxes, and watching him will show you why he is high tier and will always be high tier.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Fox is very good. Idk why you don't see that. He has the best walking speed in the game, a very good camp game, and most of his main players are doing very well - not that tournament results should count imo. Trevonte is one of the best Foxes, and watching him will show you why he is high tier and will always be high tier.

He had all of that before. Nothing has changed since the previous tier list. Thus, he had no reason to move up.

And tournament results should count: they prove that theory is correct. It's impossible to make a tier list without them.

Fox is mid tier and will always be mid tier.

 

[-Mars-]

Fox has good matchups against characters that count. Main reason why he moved up imo. His bad matchups are not common characters (Sheik, Pika, Icies, ZSS) and even those are manageable because of hw fast he kills. He's similar to Sheik imo in that he has a fantastic projectile, fast, great damage racking ability, amazing frame data.......... except the fact that he can actually end his opponents stock before they get to 200 lol.

 

[NAKAT]

Pit didn't "do worse", he simply stayed the way he always was, and was dropped back down.

Fox ain't going to prove he belongs there. .

We will see about that. You sound ridiculous.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Fox is really good, at the least really solid.

Fox main MK secondary sounds terrifying.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

He had all of that before. Nothing has changed since the previous tier list. Thus, he had no reason to move up.

And tournament results should count: they prove that theory is correct. It's impossible to make a tier list without them.

Fox is mid tier and will always be mid tier.

Why does everything have to be X character should move up because he/she placed well in X tournament? If we base the tier list on that fact, then it will NEVER be accurate because we would hype up X character since they placed well at X national event. Let's say a Wolf placed top 3 at a MLG. After the Wolf places so well, characters above him will be questioned because they clearly aren't as good since some have never placed that high. Wolf will most likely go up in the tier list because he placed "so high," and other will go down because they "don't place enough."

Going by that theory, the tier list becomes flawed. It makes the list a "popularity contest." It changes SOLELY based on tournament results. This makes the tier list inaccurate, and sadly ALL of the tier list have been made that way.

The tier list should not be a collection of tournament results because if it is made that way, then it will NEVER be accurate. Tournament results will ALWAYS change, so making the tier list by that will not allow characters to be placed properly.

A tier list should be a comparision and analysis of "base" character qualities, their matchups, and THAT's it. Then it will change if X character finds out a way to beat or make a matchup even vs X character. That's how it should be made.

 

[NAKAT]

Fox is really good, at the least really solid.

Fox main MK secondary sounds terrifying.

That's me lmao.

 

[Meru.]

Fox is really good, at the least really solid.

Fox main MK secondary sounds terrifying.

Everyone main MK secondary sounds terrifying.

Why does everything have to be X character should move up because he/she placed well in X tournament? If we base the tier list on that fact, then it will NEVER be accurate because we would hype up X character since they placed well at X national event. Let's say a Wolf placed top 3 at a MLG. After the Wolf places so well, characters above him will be questioned because they clearly aren't as good since some have never placed that high. Wolf will most likely go up in the tier list because he placed "so high," and other will go down because they "don't place enough."

Going by that theory, the tier list becomes flawed. It makes the list a "popularity contest." It changes SOLELY based on tournament results. This makes the tier list inaccurate, and sadly ALL of the tier list have been made that way.

The tier list should not be a collection of tournament results because if it is made that way, then it will NEVER be accurate. Tournament results will ALWAYS change, so making the tier list by that will not allow characters to be placed properly.

A tier list should be a comparision and analysis of "base" character qualities, their matchups, and THAT's it. Then it will change if X character finds out a way to beat or make a matchup even vs X character. That's how it should be made.

If that character placed that high at such a hard tournament, then a boost isnt out of the question. There must be a reason why that character could place that high. Or was it just one good placing? Dont mind it that much then.

What? Is that character placing well consistently? That means that this character succeeds in practice aka the actual game, where this tier list is based on (and not on theorycraft).

Tournament results are important. Of course, they are not the only important factor in tier lists, but they are still very important. If you're ignoring tournament results, you're basing a tier list solely on theorycraft. We aren't playing that game and I wouldnt want a tier list of that.