Official BBR Tier List v5

[SuSa]

Quoted from workshop, and I'm almost positive the "within 8%" is wrong. I'm positive I tested it before I quit SWF, it was one of the last things I did was study and look into priority.

As far as aerial priority goes, I'll have a look at it tomorrow. I'm almost positive it's possible to beat/clank (certain) aerials... otherwise Yoshi's bair would be broken, same with Snake, DDD, and all the other similar ones.

Again, the last time I touched/researched Brawl was back in November 2009 so my memory on details I tested is a bit fuzzy, but I'll still argue for it because it's fuzzy in the way that I feel I'm right and not I feel I'm wrong.

Bit 5: Clang This is the clang bit. You've probably heard of "clang" before - it's when two attacks hit each other and they're both interrupted. This bit controls whether a hitbox is able to clang with other hitboxes - if it's 1, it will; if it's 0, it won't. This doesn't mean it will always clang with any other attack (attacks can only clang if they're both grounded and they deal similar damage within 8%) lol no, but it does mean that it will be able to, for example, cancel out similarily-damaging projectiles.

Note: Many people will understand this better if I call it the "priority" bit, with 1 being normal priority and 0 being transcendent priority. However, since it's a single bit, convention dictates that 1 be a "yes it can" and a 0 be a "no it can't", and thus I call it the clang bit.

Until the "within 8%" thing is backed with some code saying "This code changes the difference of priority from 8% to whatever the hell you want" it's just some crackpot theory. Until I see evidence for it being otherwise. It has no backing from what I've been able to find, other than word of mouth since Brawl was released and so therefore it is of no holding value in my eyes. It has no evidence that I've seen.

 

[Poltergust]

I guess most of that stuff could be right, SFP, but...

5. Aerials never clank with ground moves and always win.

This is obviously false. Or maybe you mean something else...?

 

[Ripple]

why would yoshi's bair be broken if you couldn't clank with it?

btw I've never seen a yoshi bair clank with anything.

 

[Browny]

Why would i waste my time getting evidence to prove you wrong rofl, that wouldnt change anything. Who the **** you are hahaha. youre no different to anyone else here.

I'll tell you this though.

a disjoint is a property INVENTED BY US to explain a result. a 'disjoint' is nothing more than the distance from which a hitbox extends past the hurtbox. there is no intrinsic value to a disjoint on an attack, only the distance between the hit/hurt boxes

FYI EVERY SINGLE ATTACK in this game is disjointed to some extent, some more than others. the only time it ever matters is when u consider transcendant priority.

So then, marths fsmash is disjointed. So is sonics jab. will they clank? No.
Sonics fsmash is also disjointed. will they clank? yes.

its all about damage (for ground attacks)

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I guess most of that stuff could be right, SFP, but...



This is obviously false. Or maybe you mean something else...?

Yes, I messed up (sorry). What I meant is, an aerial cannot clank with a ground move; the ground move will be subject to the same rules as the aerial it is competing with, though.

For instance, if I back air with Wolf and DK goes to forward smash, the first hitbox that connects to a hurtbox will win the exchange. They can't clank.

 

[Poltergust]

why would yoshi's bair be broken if you couldn't clank with it?

btw I've never seen a yoshi bair clank with anything.

I think he's saying that Yoshi's b-air would be broken if it always beat ground moves.

 

[SuSa]

I guess 'clank' would be the wrong term as we know it.

The hitbox is negated due to hitting another hitbox. This is why multiple hitbox moves (Olimar's up air, Yoshi's back air, Falco's fair) seem to have "higher priority" than other moves. They just have more hitboxes at spaced intervals...however you are able to go through without being damaged if you negate the hitbox (by hitting it)

/November 2009 memory.... I may be wrong but until someone provides backing or I'm able to re-test it myself tomorrow. I'm going off this.

EDIT:

Why would i waste my time getting evidence to prove you wrong rofl, that wouldnt change anything.

It would change everything. Currently the only thing I've seen about damage is word of mouth from players. Many Smash Researchers and other people have agree with me and backed me. Why? Because instead of trusting word of mouth they go test it out.

 

[Poltergust]

FYI EVERY SINGLE ATTACK in this game is disjointed to some extent, some more than others. the only time it ever matters is when u consider transcendant priority.

Jigglypuff's Rest?

 

[GTZ]

Jigglypuff's Rest?

good question,,,,

 

[Ripple]

I didn't know people considered multihitting moves to have higher priority than single hitting moves just because the presence of more than 1 hitbox during an animation

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

A friend on AIM is telling me that if two attacks over 8% connect on the same frame, the move that does more damage will power through the other move and win.

This does seem to line up with my experiences vs. Snake. Sometimes when I attempt to down tilt him, he will forward tilt me at the same time and beat it cleanly, but it's hard to tell if it just connected first or what.

 

[Ripple]

buffer snakes f tilt against DK's reverse up tilt. its really funny

 

[SuSa]

A friend on AIM is telling me that if two attacks over 8% connect on the same frame, the move that does more damage will power through the other move and win.

This does seem to line up with my experiences vs. Snake. Sometimes when I attempt to down tilt him, he will forward tilt me at the same time and beat it cleanly, but it's hard to tell if it just connected first or what.

Flaw:
Base Damage: - All 8 (You said over)
Hitbox comes out at frame - 4

Zamus dtilt:
Dtilt:
Hitbox out on Frame: 5

If used at the exact same time, I'm going to go ahead and say ftilt wins.

Uhm.... let this hitbox decide:

 

[bigman40]

That holds true because if you time it, you'll see the moment where your attack will "clash" but you'll get hit anyways. I've done this multiple times with Yoshi's Jab to Snake's Utilt.

Damage output does matter in terms of clashing grounded moves.

 

[Poltergust]

I didn't know people considered multihitting moves to have higher priority than single hitting moves just because the presence of more than 1 hitbox during an animation

It makes sense, though. If two hitboxes hit each other, they would cancel each other out. However, the multi-hitting move would power through because the other move just got canceled out.

For example, I'm fighting Olimar as Yoshi and he decides to u-air me. I n-air, and even though I clash with the first hitbox he still breaks through with the rest of his u-air. That's because my n-air hitbox is no longer affecting the Pikmin (although, theoretically I can still hit Olimar).

 

[ShadowLink84]

Wouldn't it be because they "overlap" and so the hitbox is already touching yor hurtbox? SO there is no chance for it actually clang.
*shrugs*

It seems opinions on the entire thing changes frequently, but I am going to go with Susa on this issue.

@brown: Who are you? Come now don't say such rude things because it applies to you as well.

 

[GTZ]

ShadowLink84, you are quite sophisticated, I like your style.. as for the subject matter I agree with SuSa as well.

 

[SuSa]

Wouldn't it be because they "overlap" and so the hitbox is already touching yor hurtbox? SO there is no chance for it actually clang.
*shrugs*

It seems opinions on the entire thing changes frequently, but I am going to go with Susa on this issue.

@brown: Who are you? Come now don't say such rude things because it applies to you as well.

You can hit Olimar out of Uair with Yoshi's Nair if you're falling/he's rising fast enough for you to hit him before the 2nd hitbox of Uair hits Yoshi. If that makes sense, we're on the same page.

They don't really "clang" but they overlap because a hitbox is canceled. (Although that's totally not proper terminoligy just playing the game you'll see this happen a lot.. with moves like Snake's bair as well... )

Nice to see you're still around Shadow.

 

[Browny]

posted on next page

 

[GTZ]

hmmm, I may see where your coming from in a sense Browny...
- too tired from work for this thread nite guys

 

[Poltergust]

You can hit Olimar out of Uair with Yoshi's Nair if you're falling/he's rising fast enough for you to hit him before the 2nd hitbox of Uair hits Yoshi. If that makes sense, we're on the same page.

They don't really "clang" but they overlap because a hitbox is canceled. (Although that's totally not proper terminoligy just playing the game you'll see this happen a lot.. with moves like Snake's bair as well... )

Nice to see you're still around Shadow.

Yeah, like I said you can still theoretically hit Olimar with n-air, just no longer the Pikmin.

Of course, d-air is a better option to combat his u-air. Beats it every time (if not yellow).

 

[da K.I.D.]

I was going to post some stuff but Im with GTZ, its too late.

for what its worth, ill say that its not whether 2 attacks do more than 8%, its whether one attack does 8% MORE damage than the other move, or not.

also, browny is right, and if susa was right, which hes not, zss's 1% jab would clank with ikes 8000% f smash.

 

[da K.I.D.]

also, why cna susa still embed vids, even tho hes not a mod anymore? thats some old bullcrap.

 

[Browny]

aww **** last posted, brb fixing

rofl ok i concede rest doesnt... and maybe DDD nair

It wouldnt change anything because it literally WOULD NOT CHANGE ANYTHING. Whether we all think priority behaves a certain way or not, it wont change the way we play.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with my theory and there is no collision of hitboxes where the result is not explained by that, so ill stick with it. unfortunately your theory is extremely easy to disprove with me sonic jab/fsmash example. if you want to question whether jab is disjointed or not, go and find me the value for the disjoint for his jab and show it is 0. Because you wont find it, nothing regarding 'disjoint' was programmed into the game.

so there, thats all the proof i need to show that your theory is wrong. care to cite an example which would prove my theory wrong?

give me a minute, ill post my examples.

---

Observe.

Sheiks bair.

this represents the exact maximum range of the attack. 1 pixel closer and it hits. this is the extent of her hitbox and is the upper limit of the disjoint.

This is snakes utilt connecting with sheiks bair as close as humanly possible I got snake to utilt with his attack hitting here

Thus, this represents the location of shieks hurtbox, the minimum limit of the disjoint.

This image was taken 1 frame after, proving that the utilt connected.

If sheiks bair was used even 1 pixel furhter away, the utilt did not connect. now either her foot is invincible, or it has no hurtbox attached to it. Its 99.9% likely that no hurtbox is attacked to it.

Thus the result, is the 'disjoint' of the attack.

if sheiks bair connects with an enemys hurtbox within that disjoint range and the enemies hitbox also stays in that range, sheik will not get hurt. It is the exact same effect as having a sword.

Sheiks disjoint

Note that this disjoint changes each and every frame of the attack and the hitboxes and hurboxes move.

So there you have it, you DO NOT need a sword to have a 'disjointed' attack.

 

[SuSa]

A GIF is not an embed vid, also I'm an unmod. Close enough to being a mod.

*sigh* I'll be hooking up my wii tomorrow. The 8% thing could very well be true, but I'm **** sure I found an instance where it's not true. If it's not universal, it's not true! So far all I'm getting is "Stupidly huge sword disjoint vs small pathetic jab. haha ur wrong"

EDIT:
Wow... please quote me that I said a sword is the only form of a disjointed attack? I'm a ****ing Snake main... I know utilt is disjointed as hell.... don't need to get pictures to show me that. =|

LOOK AT DAT DISJOINT GUYZ

 

[Browny]

rofl. no idea at all, that gif proves nothing.

Im saying the disjoint of an attack is NOTHING but the distance from hitbox to hurtbox, you came in here saying

"Marth has a sword. Sword = Disjoint. Disjoint = won't clank."

No. EVERY SINGLE ATTACK HAS A DISJOINT (except rest) therefore by your logic, no attacks in the game will clank. im proving that sheiks bair, just like every single attack in the game, has a disjoint, proving that swords have nothing to do with it.

 

[SuSa]

Well excuse me for being broad and not detailing every **** thing I ever say in front of you.

I guess I'll start doing that to avoid any miscommunication or misinterpretation.

 

[Ripple]

it'd be nice it those played slower

 

[SuSa]

I can see it just fine.

Anyways, no point debating. I'll find out who's wrong tomorrow conducting my own testing and experiments... if I can get my wii setup, otherwise I'll find out whenever that happens.

I have school in 8 hours... I should sleep... so bye.

 

[Browny]

Now thats cleared up, lets fix this

"No... just... no."

what examples do you have of the 10% rule not working.

 

[ShadowLink84]

You can hit Olimar out of Uair with Yoshi's Nair if you're falling/he's rising fast enough for you to hit him before the 2nd hitbox of Uair hits Yoshi. If that makes sense, we're on the same page.

They don't really "clang" but they overlap because a hitbox is canceled. (Although that's totally not proper terminoligy just playing the game you'll see this happen a lot.. with moves like Snake's bair as well... )

Nice to see you're still around Shadow.

I understand what you mean perfectly. It is why Sonic's Dair is rather good against Olimar aerially because he "clangs" with the first hitbox and lands his attack before the second one comes out.


I am always around, though I tend to be less...logical when arguing with people.
They tend to be shtupid.

 

[GTZ]

yay for the pictures, it's nice to see some visuals

 

[Browny]

Ok now thats all done... A summary on what I believe, and my INDEPENDANT research has shown.

All attacks are disjointed to some extent, even negatively in the case of rest.
The 'priority' of an attack is nothing more than the relative size of the hitbox compared to the hurtbox, this is commonly known as the 'disjoint'.
The disjoint of a ground attack is only important when one attack does more than 10% of the other.
If two ground attacks do similar damage and hit at the same time, they will always clank.
If one attack does less than 10% of the other, it will be completely overridden.
If the weaker attack has such a significant disjoint that the hitboxes collide but their hurtbox does not hit the stronger attacks hitbox, nothing will happen.

In air vs air and air vs ground clashes, all that matters is whether a hitbox overlaps a hutbox of one or both characters.
The presence of a disjoint only increases your margin of error with your spacing and nothing else.

Transcendant attacks follow the rules of aerial priority entirely.

 

[SuSa]

Ok now thats all done... A summary on what I believe, and my INDEPENDANT research has shown.

All attacks are disjointed to some extent, even negatively in the case of rest.
The 'priority' of an attack is nothing more than the relative size of the hitbox compared to the hurtbox, this is commonly known as the 'disjoint'.
The disjoint of a ground attack is only important when one attack does more than 10% of the other.
If two ground attacks do similar damage and hit at the same time, they will always clank.
If one attack does less than 10% of the other, it will be completely overridden.
If the weaker attack has such a significant disjoint that the hitboxes collide but their hurtbox does not hit the stronger attacks hitbox, nothing will happen.

In air vs air and air vs ground clashes, all that matters is whether a hitbox overlaps a hutbox of one or both characters.
The presence of a disjoint only increases your margin of error with your spacing and nothing else.

Transcendant attacks follow the rules of aerial priority entirely.

Since I'm still up.

1) IF % has anything to do with it (which I doubt and I'll test multiple combinations of moves tomorrow) it's probably 8% seeing as that's what I've seen more of; and in the Smash Workshop. (However, with little confirmation in Brawl's code anywhere... if it's not coded, it simply doesn't exist, no matter how things may look or seem.)

2) I don't see why ground moves would follow an entirely different set of priority than air moves. It would make sense for them both to follow the same rules, and seeing as air doesn't follow ground and ground seemingly only sometimes ignores air - it'd be safer to assume that both act as "air priority" and not ground priority. This is just looking at it from a standpoint that ignores the % rule as existing. This would further push the idea between transcendant and non-transcendant being the only two forms of priority.

So it all rides on #1 being proven. I'll test differences of 8% first tomorrow, then I'll test %10. I've also seen two instances of how these percents are effect. Whether it is 8% or more damage output (or 10% or more), or if it's they have a difference greater than 8%/10%.... Seeing as your argument seems to be the difference greater than I'll look to test that first.

 

[Flayl]

I just want to add that special and glide moves don't have the same rules as aerials, they can still clank if they're not transcendent. Not that anybody asked but I thought it'd be best to mention.

 

[Kitamerby]

Remember these simple rules for clanking.


Ground moves clank with other ground moves and specials.

Air moves can only clank with specials.

Specials can clank with other specials, ground moves, AND air moves, so basically everything not transcendent.

Transcendent attacks follow the hitbox/hurtbox overlap shenanigans like air moves.

Projectiles usually count as specials.

Obviously there are a few exceptions. ZSS's nair counts under the specials for example iirc.

 

[Chsal]

I thought all this priority stuff had already been figured a long time ago?

Wiki page on Priority

 

[Browny]

Since I'm still up.

1) IF % has anything to do with it (which I doubt and I'll test multiple combinations of moves tomorrow) it's probably 8% seeing as that's what I've seen more of; and in the Smash Workshop. (However, with little confirmation in Brawl's code anywhere... if it's not coded, it simply doesn't exist, no matter how things may look or seem.)

2) I don't see why ground moves would follow an entirely different set of priority than air moves. It would make sense for them both to follow the same rules, and seeing as air doesn't follow ground and ground seemingly only sometimes ignores air - it'd be safer to assume that both act as "air priority" and not ground priority. This is just looking at it from a standpoint that ignores the % rule as existing. This would further push the idea between transcendant and non-transcendant being the only two forms of priority.

So it all rides on #1 being proven. I'll test differences of 8% first tomorrow, then I'll test %10. I've also seen two instances of how these percents are effect. Whether it is 8% or more damage output (or 10% or more), or if it's they have a difference greater than 8%/10%.... Seeing as your argument seems to be the difference greater than I'll look to test that first.

how could you possibly disprove #1 rofl.

Yeah ok id love to see that. I mean surely theres a reason why every single non-transcendant ground hitbox collision follows this rule and the result can always be accurately predicted.

Even if the % rule is not found to be hard-coded into the game, nothing will change. tilts will cancel out heavily disjointed smashes.

Its empirical evidence and we are inventing a reason to explain why things happen, but that doesnt make it innacurate. See; the invention of every scientific constant ever.

 

[The Truth!]

but Pikachu can't kill Fox out of chaingrab right? o:

Pikachu actually can 0-death fox. No one bothers to learn it though since 0 to 100 from a grab is already LOL enough.

 

[Orion*]

i play metaknight. so i stopped caring about priority