Official BBR Tier List v5

[vVv Rapture]

Chuee, remember who you have quoted in your sig. That's a champion.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Reading these 3 reasonings in that oder makes me lol.

"despite bad matchups against Sheik and Pikachu, which goes to show a few bad matchups don't completely invalidate a character" and how many examples of a top player actively counterpicking another top fox with these two characters do you have to work off?

At least have some consistancy. Everything in this list was going right the pit explanation and movement was perfect but fox's movement off one players performance while youre explanation for PT exists about reflex, well its hard to see anything but extreme bias here. I dont doubt he is that good (I think just not enough top players use him, just like peach and it will tend this way over time) but those reasonings are pretty weak and invalidate each other at this point in time.

The main difference is TKD beat top players from the WC, while Reflex beats...Alabama/Georgia players. Even without regional bias, you can tell that GA/AL isn't as good as California. Tyrant gets top 10 at MLG consistently, beating top players from everywhere. Reflex hasn't gotten top 16 once. Beating a top player such as Tyrant is much different than beating Big Lou.

 

[Browny]

And X did that same feat with sonic... multiple times, without the horrid CP matchups that fox has yet is an entire tier below him :/

 

[tibs7]

How is falco still 4th? He's better than diddy and possibly snake.

Bbr continues to fail.

 

[Red Arremer]

I love how some people in this thread think that their opinion is the only correct one.

 

[Chuee]

Hint: take a look at their ruleset.

 

[Mota]

How did GnW rise 1?

Yay Fox

LOL@Pit dam right

Dk still on the slide, really thought he was going to rise this time

Like the Zelda and Sheik combination

Wow all the Ike mains put in great work

Gooo Link and lmao at Ganon tier

 

[Kewkky]

How is falco still 4th? He's better than diddy and possibly snake.

Bbr continues to fail.

More like, your opinion is not a fact.

Our opinions may not be a fact either, but it far outnumbers yours. It doesn't mean it fails, it just means that there's more people convinced that Snake's 2nd.

I love how some people in this thread think that their opinion is the only correct one.

Agreed.

 

[tibs7]

Joel, many people think you failed again....and many people think falco should be higher so it's not just my own opinion scrub.

 

[Chuee]

tibs, check out the BBR's ruleset.
And you might figure out why falco isn't 2nd.

 

[Mota]

Bleh at TL not moving, I would've thought he was on a level higher then Fox, Kirby and Pit.

 

[Red Arremer]

@ the people talking about G&W rising one spot:
If you compare this list with the last one, you will notice that Lucario and G&W changed places. You also might notice that the difference in voting digits of these 2 is 0.24 which is fairly little. So basically, Lucario and G&W is close, but we (i.e. the collective voting of the BBR) think that G&W is a bit better than Lucario.

Joel, many people think you failed again....and many people think falco should be higher so it's not just my own opinion scrub.

Protip:
Falco is not as good against ledgegrabbers.

 

[Kewkky]

Joel, many people think you failed again....and many people think falco should be higher so it's not just my own opinion scrub.

When you gather all of them, then gather all the ones that believe Snake is 2nd, afterwards yo compare the numbers, and you find out that the majority DOES want Falco 2nd, I'll agree with you. Until then, our group got everyone's opinion and the majority wanted Snake 2nd, so he's second.

Oh and, you're still throwing out opinions, child. *pats his head* 'Preciate the scrub call-out, even though it has nothing to do with anything!

 

[tibs7]

Nah kewkky wasn't calling you a scrub, was aimed Joel.

And kewkky I said 'possibly' above snake so I'm not even sure if I would go as far as to say that falco is no.2,

@Joel, the ledgegrabbers being? Mk, samus, gnw and maybe marth I think are like the only legit plankers.

Oh and pit

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Nah, Bowser is fine where he belongs. I actually expected BBR to put him in the bottom tier considering the way the discussion was going, AND AA thought he was the second worst character in this game.

But we didn't get that. I reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally think he's better than Lucas, and maybe on the same page as Mario but we don't have rep at all, and there's really no one to blame but ourselves, we have to pull a San out of our *** or something.

Oh well.

daw dont hate man i've tried playing bowser i just sux so bad with him...id love to use him in LT n would be more than happy to so glad hes in LT jus for that


VVVVVVVVVV by the end of brawls life time i can see him being around upper middle tier imo so i dont expect a rise n dont care

 

[Technodeath]

I'm relatively happy with the tier list, even if D3 dropped a couple.

Good work. I think everyone can quit their *****ing.

 

[Kewkky]

Nah kewkky wasn't calling you a scrub, was aimed Joel.

And kewkky I said 'possibly' above snake so I'm not even sure if I would go as far as to say that falco is no.2,

Oh, my bad about that then. Sorry!

 

[Justblaze647]

I just saw this. I'll make an epic post tomorrow.

Also, I really like that Niddo guy

 

[Deleted member]

p*FACEPALM*
You guys just managed to combine your PT error and Pit error at the same freaking time. Not only did you judge based solely on TKD when it came to, well, anything that actually counts as proof for Fox's rise, you also put an extreme amount of weight on "potential". AGAIN. Later you say Pit's placement was wrong because of that very reason. I mean...seriously? Come on guys. Fox's tournament results do NOT suggest he's on par with Kirby and ROB. In fact, they say he's on par with *gasp* Wolf of all characters. His MU spread is again, par with Wolf's. There is not a single scrap of evidence to say that he should be anywhere but beside Wolf on the tier list. Technically, he's just under Wolf in both of those, so he should be just under Wolf currently. Fox has ONE guy doing well (man, doesn't this sound familiar? I think the name Reflex should name a few bells), while Wolf has a couple of guys doing "Not as well as TKD, but better than the second best Fox guy".

Seriously. Release Tier List 5.1, drop Fox down to Wolf's level. Either side of Wolf is fine. It's a good list except for that glaring, painfully obvious, mistake.

THANK YOU. You have summed up exactly how I've felt about Fox's position on the tier list since v4. He should be right under Wolf.

God, if tier lists keep on being based purely off of potential, then let's just hype up Ganon in the BBR. He'll be rising before you know it!

 

[PieDisliker]

Might as well change S Tier to Metaknight Tier.

 

[ADHD]

Why is Diddy still 3rd? Get that stupid snake ***** outta here. I hate you MLG!

 

[Kewkky]

Why is Diddy still 3rd? Get that stupid snake ***** outta here. I hate you MLG!

Your vote could've made a difference. Too bad you didn't realize it when you quit the first day you joined the BBR instead of sticking around to make some sort of change.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Your vote could've made a difference Too bad you didn't realize it when you quit the first day you joined the BBR instead of sticking around to make some sort of change.

Do you really want him? Also, do you really want BBR drama in the tier list thread?

 

[Dark 3nergy]

not like bbr drama wouldnt happen anyway imo with all the breaches in information

plus ppl in general are pretty steamed at them for one reason or another

 

[Matt07]

Congrats on Ike's placement going up by 5. Good stuff guys .

 

[Yonder]

I'm dissapointed with Fox's place, 16th? No... ROB, Pit, Peach are better in my opinion on other peoples tooo, guess hes the new hype but average in disguise character.

Other than that, looks solid

 

[Spelt]

falco's offstage game is so bad most characters could play a ledge-based game and have the MU move about 5 points in their favor.
not sure why falco is still #4 with planking allowed at all.

 

[Kewkky]

Do you really want him? Also, do you really want BBR drama in the tier list thread?

Well, I guess not.

But it's true!

And it's not a breach of info (in case someone thinks so), he's made it clear he quit before.

 

[Red Arremer]

@Joel, the ledgegrabbers being? Mk, samus, gnw and maybe marth I think are like the only legit plankers.

Oh and pit

Yes.
So why would a character with ~5 hard to almost unwinnable match-ups, one of them being the most common tournament character, be the second best?

He has no good answer to planking. If a ledgegrab ruling is applied, then yes, I would agree with him being second-best. But without, he isn't.

 

[fUddO]

Well, I expected Pit to fall (he was honestly too high last tier list), but this is a bit too dramatic. I'd say he's probably above Fox and ROB at the moment. He still has that potential to rise, we just haven't seen it yet...

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

not like bbr drama wouldnt happen anyway imo with all the breaches in information

plus ppl in general are pretty steamed at them for one reason or another

For what exactly?

BBR has been doing a great job lately. The problem is that people have a sense of entitlement that comes when they are offered more information. They've tasted it, so now they're thirsty for more. We could go back to the days when we basically knew jack **** about what was going on back there, or we could be happy that they tell us anything.

We could also consider that the BBR is composed of like a few dozen guys that play a video game competitively and all have opinions. The tier list and rules are basically an averaging of their opinions. That's all they are. They don't even really ever claim to be any more than that, and there are disclaimers all over every rule thread that say so.

They don't owe you anything. I could agree with a BBR in which we could all read but not post, but your average poster is way too dumb to handle that, frankly. Who wants a bunch of guys with pitchforks and torches reading over your shoulder? I may not agree with BBR being private, but I understand their reasoning for keeping it that way.

Other than that, I'm not sure what other problem you could have with the BBR at this point. They have been listening, and have delivered a great (flexible!) rule set and the strongest tier list to date, plus a thread that supposedly offers information on exactly what projects they are working on.

Cut them some slack, they don't even get paid.

 

[Juushichi]

THANK YOU. You have summed up exactly how I've felt about Fox's position on the tier list since v4. He should be right under Wolf.

God, if tier lists keep on being based purely off of potential, then let's just hype up Ganon in the BBR. He'll be rising before you know it!

Cool strawman, bro.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

pretty sure my boy browny summed up my feelings in his posts @ v4 thread

 

[The Truth!]

Yay, I knew fox had it in him

Also glad to see pika and oli weren't seperated.

Spoiler

Although I would have preferred pika on top . I know it doesnt matter, it was close though as I expected.

Anyways, heres a chart that sort of lists some of the more controversial votes. This ranks the standard deviation, meaning votes were more scattered at the top and more consistent at the bottom. Most interesting was that all of high tier was very consistent, deviating well below 2.50. Meanwhile mid-tier was entirely 2.5 and above, with the exception of Pokemon Trainer. Low Tier was also well below 2.5 excepting jiggs, bowser, and mario.

Jigglypuff		33.98	4.66
Bowser			31.69	4.04
Pit	  	        17.91	3.53
Mario			30.47	3.48
Fox	    	        16.55	3.38
Sonic			23.82	3.34
Toon Link		15.00	3.16
Peach			18.05	3.15
Wolf			22.36	3.09
Ike		        25.22	2.79
Donkey Kong           	19.13	2.72
Luigi			21.56	2.67
Zelda/Sheik		23.35	2.59
Sheik			25.33	2.54
Kirby			16.05	2.61
R.O.B.			17.00	2.60
Ness			25.75	2.43
Lucas			29.78	2.35
Pikachu			8.98	2.31
King Dedede		10.36	2.27
Zero Suit Samus	        12.75	2.25
Lucario			12.29	2.18
Pokémon Trainer         27.40	2.10
Yoshi			29.71	2.07
Captain Falcon	        33.45	2.02
Zelda			35.49	1.92
Samus			33.78	1.65
Link		        35.44	1.48
Wario			5.76	1.96
Marth			5.85	1.92
Falco			3.71	1.78
Diddy Kong		3.33	1.55
Olimar			8.71	1.45
Snake			3.13	1.31
Ice Climbers		6.62	1.18
Ganondorf		37.91	0.35
Meta Knight		1       0

 

[Mota]

Well, I expected Pit to fall (he was honestly too high last tier list), but this is a bit too dramatic. I'd say he's probably above Fox and ROB at the moment. He still has that potential to rise, we just haven't seen it yet...

Which is what the Pit mains have been saying for the past 2 years

 

[fUddO]

Which is what the Pit mains have been saying for the past 2 years

We've also been saying "LOOK AT JAPAN! LOOK AT JAPAN!" Honestly, there haven't been m/any high caliber players out there who have stuck it out with Pit.

 

[hippiedude92]

your avatar= hot
your post= not hot at all

who r u again?

?

this tier list still looks ugly

yuck

luigi get dat high tier

kthxbro

 

[Spelt]

luigi sucks, kinda like wolf.
all u mad.

 

[Kewkky]

We've also been saying "LOOK AT JAPAN! LOOK AT JAPAN!" Honestly, there haven't been m/any high caliber players out there who have stuck it out with Pit.

It's one thing to look, it's another to experience... There's also the fact that they only play in 5 stages, and they're ones with no stage hazards or abnormal terrain at all, which makes ledge play and camping the best tactics. Pit happens to have both of them, so it's only natural that he does that well out there but not as well in our tier list. His "potential" is held back by the rules used outside of Japan, and so we can't use Japan's Pit representation as an example of why he has to go up.

who r u again?

?

this tier list still looks ugly

yuck

luigi get dat high tier

kthxbro

Iunno man, but ugly for me = sexy. What do you say to THAT?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Fourth:

*FACEPALM*
You guys just managed to combine your PT error and Pit error at the same freaking time. Not only did you judge based solely on TKD when it came to, well, anything that actually counts as proof for Fox's rise, you also put an extreme amount of weight on "potential". AGAIN. Later you say Pit's placement was wrong because of that very reason. I mean...seriously? Come on guys. Fox's tournament results do NOT suggest he's on par with Kirby and ROB. In fact, they say he's on par with *gasp* Wolf of all characters. His MU spread is again, par with Wolf's. There is not a single scrap of evidence to say that he should be anywhere but beside Wolf on the tier list. Technically, he's just under Wolf in both of those, so he should be just under Wolf currently. Fox has ONE guy doing well (man, doesn't this sound familiar? I think the name Reflex should name a few bells), while Wolf has a couple of guys doing "Not as well as TKD, but better than the second best Fox guy".

Seriously. Release Tier List 5.1, drop Fox down to Wolf's level. Either side of Wolf is fine. It's a good list except for that glaring, painfully obvious, mistake.

...TKD isn't even a solo Fox main?

*even harder facepalm than before*

Now there is even less proof than the near-nonexistant proof there was before. Seriously: version 5.1 plz? It saddens me when there is basically only one thing really wrong, but wrong by so much.

I also don't believe Fox deserves a rise. I mean, even TKD, the guy the synopsis was based around, goes MK against his harder MUs! But of course, some people have glasses so thick all they can see is their reflection.

Fox does have more notable wins over top players (somehow)

Up to date list? Where? Like I said, his matchups are heavily debated: TKD's opinion of Fox has sometimes been different than other Fox players, and people who don't play Fox also got their own opinions of him. I've seen Fox range from 5:5 to 35:65 against MK, 6:4 for Snake to 6:4 for Fox, 55:45 Fox against Wario to 4:6 Wario beating him, Falco 6:4 to 5:5, Dedede from 6:4 either characters favor, etc. People are FARRRRRRR from getting even CLOSE to agreeing on his matchups sadly.

Edit: Yeah... I did point that out a few times in the BBR when we talked about Fox. Not many people believed me apparently when I told them he DOES tend to switch off of Fox to MK for harder matchups.

I don't think Fox is great, but on the other hand it's pretty hard to tell with matchup ratios being so all over the place depending on who you ask.

Then you can't move him up based on that either: once again you have even less proof of where he should be.

Seriously: what on earth was his rise over any character based on?

Lol. Kain goes all Wolf at least =P.

Yeah, why is it that PT was moved down because only Reflex uses him well, but Fox was moved up because TKD uses him well?

Also, I propose that Reflex takes over as the PT spot on the tier list and is actually on the tier list himself, as not only do I think that Reflex is really such a huge outlier at this point, but that he is actually the Pokemon Trainer himself.

Reading these 3 reasonings in that oder makes me lol.

"despite bad matchups against Sheik and Pikachu, which goes to show a few bad matchups don't completely invalidate a character" and how many examples of a top player actively counterpicking another top fox with these two characters do you have to work off?

At least have some consistancy. Everything in this list was going right the pit explanation and movement was perfect but fox's movement off one players performance while youre explanation for PT exists about reflex, well its hard to see anything but extreme bias here. I dont doubt he is that good (I think just not enough top players use him, just like peach and it will tend this way over time) but those reasonings are pretty weak and invalidate each other at this point in time.

The main difference is TKD beat top players from the WC, while Reflex beats...Alabama/Georgia players. Even without regional bias, you can tell that GA/AL isn't as good as California. Tyrant gets top 10 at MLG consistently, beating top players from everywhere. Reflex hasn't gotten top 16 once. Beating a top player such as Tyrant is much different than beating Big Lou.

And X did that same feat with sonic... multiple times, without the horrid CP matchups that fox has yet is an entire tier below him :/

I just saw this. I'll make an epic post tomorrow.

Also, I really like that Niddo guy

THANK YOU. You have summed up exactly how I've felt about Fox's position on the tier list since v4. He should be right under Wolf.

God, if tier lists keep on being based purely off of potential, then let's just hype up Ganon in the BBR. He'll be rising before you know it!

I'm dissapointed with Fox's place, 16th? No... ROB, Pit, Peach are better in my opinion on other peoples tooo, guess hes the new hype but average in disguise character.

Other than that, looks solid

Any other BBR members want to reply to what is the most commonly pointed out issue with the tier list?