Official BBR Tier List v5

[Nidtendofreak]

And honestly with how the dicussion was going in the bowser character board I was expecting you to put him in bottom tier, THEN I would let you have it.

This. Very much this.

 

[Juushichi]

Yeah, why is it that PT was moved down because only Reflex uses him well, but Fox was moved up because TKD uses him well?

Also, I propose that Reflex takes over as the PT spot on the tier list and is actually on the tier list himself, as not only do I think that Reflex is really such a huge outlier at this point, but that he is actually the Pokemon Trainer himself.

Best suggestion ever.

 

[Thebest1pj]

Fox does have more notable wins over top players (somehow)

Up to date list? Where? Like I said, his matchups are heavily debated: TKD's opinion of Fox has sometimes been different than other Fox players, and people who don't play Fox also got their own opinions of him. I've seen Fox range from 5:5 to 35:65 against MK, 6:4 for Snake to 6:4 for Fox, 55:45 Fox against Wario to 4:6 Wario beating him, Falco 6:4 to 5:5, Dedede from 6:4 either characters favor, etc. People are FARRRRRRR from getting even CLOSE to agreeing on his matchups sadly.

Edit: Yeah... I did point that out a few times in the BBR when we talked about Fox. Not many people believed me apparently when I told them he DOES tend to switch off of Fox to MK for harder matchups.

I don't think Fox is great, but on the other hand it's pretty hard to tell with matchup ratios being so all over the place depending on who you ask.

they didnt know he goes mk at times? lmao where do they get info.

 

[Seagull Joe]

wow if that's really what his matchups look like on the wolf boards you guys are seriously biased.
no way wolf has it easier vs pikachu than falco.
just no.

He does have it easier then Falco. He has shine.

Yeah, why is it that PT was moved down because only Reflex uses him well, but Fox was moved up because TKD uses him well?

Also, I propose that Reflex takes over as the PT spot on the tier list and is actually on the tier list himself, as not only do I think that Reflex is really such a huge outlier at this point, but that he is actually the Pokemon Trainer himself.

See, that's a problem because then san would have to be on the tier list under Mk. I'd main san if I could.

 

[Albert.]

Why is Nido hating on Fox


Fox ***** dude

besides the two LOL match-ups, hes a very good character with plenty of great traits. How do you not see this?

Besides, Fox is one of the few characters that has those 45-55 MUs "Evenish" Match-ups with MK. M2k thinks fox beats meta IIRC.

It is the meta-game, right?

 

[vVv Rapture]

See, that's a problem because then san would have to be on the tier list under Mk. I'd main san if I could.

I dunno, it seems like there are more Ike mains that do well other than San than PT mains other than Reflex, though I wouldn't mind having San in place of Ike, either.

I think it'd be pretty awesome, to be honest. Too be we can't literally pick them in-game...or can we?

 

[Asdioh]

Since people are talking about Fox needing a secondary or something.... yeah? So do most characters that aren't Meta Knight. Big deal, Fox is still a really good character. I use Kirby/Fox exclusively, and here is the character I would use for the matchups down to the bottom of mid tier:

Meta Knight: Fox by far
Snake: either
Diddy Kong: possibly either, leaning towards Kirby
Falco: preferably Fox
Wario: Fox
Marth: Fox
Ice Climbers: screwed either way lolz
Olimar: ..Fox, still difficult either way
Pikachu: you don't need to ask
King Dedede: either, probably Fox
Mr. Game & Watch: Probably Fox
Lucario: Fox
Zero Suit Samus: Fox
Toon Link: either, probably Kirby
R.O.B.: Fox
Pit: Kirby
Peach: either
Donkey Kong: either, mostly Fox
Luigi: Kirby
Wolf: probably Kirby
Sonic: Fox
Ike: is actually a low tier
Sheik: Kirby
Ness: Fox
Pokémon Trainer: Squirtle beats Fox and Kirby so I dunno lol



my opinion. As you can see, I prefer Fox as much or more often than Kirby, who is directly above him on the tier list. It seems to me like he's around the right spot, or

Spoiler

that Kirby is too high like I think he is

 

[Kewkky]

M2K thought Oli beat MK once.

M2K thought Diddy beat MK once.

Now he says he believes Fox beats MK.

But of course, he's M2K, bias is unknown to him.

 

[Spelt]

He does have it easier then Falco. He has shine.

lololo extremely biased confirmed.

just no.

 

[The Real Inferno]

I think it's just easier to focus on what's bad about Bowser, because it's REALLY OBVIOUS. So the discussion tends to go that way (also AA wants to mount his head on a wall it seems).

 

[Spelt]

M2K thought Oli beat MK once.

M2K thought Diddy beat MK once.

Now he says he believes Fox beats MK.

But of course, he's M2K, bias is unknown to him.

-looks at diddy's tier placement-

-looks at olimar's tier placement-


oh

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Why is Nido hating on Fox


Fox ***** dude

besides the two LOL match-ups, hes a very good character with plenty of great traits. How do you not see this?

Besides, Fox is one of the few characters that has those 45-55 MUs "Evenish" Match-ups with MK. M2k thinks fox beats meta IIRC.

It is the meta-game, right?

If he *****, he would, you know, actually have at least one person use only that character and do well in large tournaments. Last time I checked, Fox didn't have a button that allowed him to turn into MK mid-match. :/

Sure he has good traits...about as many as Wolf.

And lol @ any MU ratio M2K puts up. That only hurts your argument if anything. He's been known for very...ah...imaginative MU ratios for quite a while now.

There is nothing to support his rise. This is PT/Pit all over again. Fix it plz.

EDIT: Spelt, tier list position has NOTHING to do with ANY MU, and you know it. Don't even try that.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm not too hard core on tier lists so I usually won't care too much if a character is a little off.

Pit dropped thank god, people were protesting how much that rise made no sense. Fox could be in the same situation, but I think his actually has some reasoning and proof behind his, even if a 5+ rise might have been a bit too high.

Zelda/Sheik? eh, I kinda agree with DMG about it, Zelda doesn't help Sheik that much. I think it helps against Ice climbers by a lot and a little with Pikachu, but other than that, eh.

Ike is out of low tier, warranted. San and others have placed very very well with Ike, at least compared to his low tier brethren. Some people are rejoicing that he is gone, I'm personally sad because there is an Ike main I love to play in low tier. ;_;

Link is above Zelda, this I agree with. Low tier is going to be weird now that Bowser is in it, Link does better vs Bowser compared to Ike, Ness and PT. The only MU's he has to worry about in low tier is Yoshi and Mario.

Peach is stuck in place, huh I thought she would have moved up a bit. Same with Falco would have moved up considering his recent placements as well.

Sonic I'm guessing has to do with X somewhat. I don't think he's that bad, like solid mid tier.

Just saying for Lucario mains, don't fret over his 1 spot drop. I know some have complained that his drop didn't make sense with his recent tournament placement but honestly I would say it's not a big deal, he's around the general area he should be in high tier. Even if I think he is better than Mr. G&W I'm accounting that partially to my own character bias. He's fine, somewhere around 10-12 is where he should be atm, imo.

 

[Spelt]

EDIT: Spelt, tier list position has NOTHING to do with ANY MU, and you know it. Don't even try that.

matchups play a huge part in tier lists.
u craycray

 

[Orion*]

We've always known Snake has problems while landing though. learning the MU means that you no longer have as many problems as before, when following Snake's landing trajectory. His weaknesses get magnified because you now know exactly what to go for, but that doesn't make Snake a worse character. :\[/qoute]

no, not to this level

before it was a guessing game, due to b reversal nades, airdodges, ect

now, mk just can go on reaction, and a lot of other chars, marth, zss, ect juggle his **** faaaaar worse than they used to. and it requires no reads, just practice. so this is significant

Could you imagine how Falco would be if we found an exploitable weakness, and could abuse it (string some hits, knock offstage, prevent from returning, gg's... But we could do this better due to being able to play lots of falcos at every tourney)?

if it got to the point where characters could gimp/**** side b on reaction w/out guessing what falco was going to do then yes it would be worth mentioning, because then assuming both players are of equal skill at a high level, that character should just die.

What about Diddy, what would happen (control bananas the same way, or better, than Diddy, due to being able to play lots of diddies at every tourney)? It really is something that affects our views on a character.

lmao, plenty of people can control bananas better or equal to good or top diddy mains. my banana control is very good

doesnt change the fact that diddys shield is ****ing broken

 

[Yamato Hong]

Ike may have returned to the spot he originally was in the first tier list... and it marks his first rise...

But... will he be able to maintain that position as the metagame continues to evolve? Predictions anyone? ^-^

 

[Seagull Joe]

lololo extremely biased confirmed.

I was kidding, but Wolf ***** Pikachu without buffer cg. He also doesn't have a guaranteed kill after the cg ends. Wolf fair out prioritizes most of Pika's moves and all of Pika's moves can be SDI'd out of. Wolf can kill Pikachu reasonably good and as long as FD is banned he can just platform camp away. Wolf can shine out if the cg is messed up even once.

Anther said that even with the cg he has problems with Wolf.

 

[Reyney]

We've always known Snake has problems while landing though. learning the MU means that you no longer have as many problems as before, when following Snake's landing trajectory. His weaknesses get magnified because you now know exactly what to go for, but that doesn't make Snake a worse character. :\[/qoute]

no, not to this level

before it was a guessing game, due to b reversal nades, airdodges, ect

now, mk just can go on reaction, and a lot of other chars, marth, zss, ect juggle his **** faaaaar worse than they used to. and it requires no reads, just practice. so this is significant



if it got to the point where characters could gimp/**** side b on reaction w/out guessing what falco was going to do then yes it would be worth mentioning, because then assuming both players are of equal skill at a high level, that character should just die.



lmao, plenty of people can control bananas better or equal to good or top diddy mains. my banana control is very good

doesnt change the fact that diddys shield is ****ing broken

i really appreciate this post.
thx man

 

[PD4FR]

Lol, Ganon tier is legit.
Bowser feels so out of place in Low Tier to me. It's kind of like if I saw Sonic in High Tier.

 

[Blissard]

Zelda has now dropped 16 places since the first tier list...

 

[vVv Rapture]

You mean, Zelda has dropped 16 places since she left the kitchen. Serves her right.

 

[Cassius.]

Lol, Ganon tier is legit.
Bowser feels so out of place in Low Tier to me. It's kind of like if I saw Sonic in High Tier.

Nah, Bowser is fine where he belongs. I actually expected BBR to put him in the bottom tier considering the way the discussion was going, AND AA thought he was the second worst character in this game.

But we didn't get that. I reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally think he's better than Lucas, and maybe on the same page as Mario but we don't have rep at all, and there's really no one to blame but ourselves, we have to pull a San out of our *** or something.

Oh well.

 

[hippiedude92]

loooool this tier list fail sauce

luigi will never move to high tier =(

/cries

 

[Aibou]

Zelda has now dropped 16 places since the first tier list...

Wish she dropped 17.

 

[Enzo]

loooool this tier list fail sauce

luigi will never move to high tier =(

/cries

your avatar= hot
your post= not hot at all

 

[Kewkky]

no, not to this level

before it was a guessing game, due to b reversal nades, airdodges, ect

now, mk just can go on reaction, and a lot of other chars, marth, zss, ect juggle his **** faaaaar worse than they used to. and it requires no reads, just practice. so this is significant

But does that mean that Snake is a worse character than before? Or does that mean that people got smarter? I still don't see everyone doing it to Snake. It's kinda like the whole "SDI it" argument, where people just stamp an "SDI it" sticker on their opponents when they say just how bad a move is... I even remember people saying "SDI MK's tornado", then later someone finding out that it's impossible to SDI it because it has a 'vaccuum effect'.

lmao, plenty of people can control bananas better or equal to good or top diddy mains. my banana control is very good

doesnt change the fact that diddys shield is ****ing broken

People could find ways around that if Diddy was as common as Snake has been for the past 2 years. As far as I know, M2K hasn't been having Diddy problems as of late for example, and he's the one guy who gets the most MU experience in total out of everyone in SWF. I remember that at Pound4 he was saying "Diddy counters MK", and now look at him. Perfect example that with experience we can learn to exploit a character's weaknesses and magnify them, thus resulting in the whole "Snake is not 2nd best" arguments we've been seeing around.

Diddy's shield might be the best out there... But it doesn't win matches. What wins matches is what he does with the shield, like we both know... But simply because he has a great shield, doesn't make it futile learning how to use bananas better than the resident Diddy in your scene. It definitely shifts the MU, people weren't even paying attention to that part of the MU before ADHD started taking games off of M2K. If that's not one of Diddy's weaknesses, what is?

 

[Chuee]

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"I reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally think he's better than Lucas,
Oh well.[/COLOR]

Bowser gets ICed
:3

 

[PD4FR]

Bowser gets ICed
:3

Lucas gets Snaked; Bowser gets ICed. Ganon gets Everythinged.

I just thought I'd even it up between you two.

 

[Chuee]

From what I hear, IC is worse for bowser than Snake for Loocas

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

I thought Lucas got Marthed, not Snaked.

D3 will slowly drop some more if he keeps getting ICed like this.

 

[Chuee]

Nope Marth isn't worse than snake.
Marth has a dash grab CG, not an infinite.

 

[Cassius.]

ICs is 20:80.

Idk/c what the Lucas-Snake MU is but I'm guessing it's not 20:80.

 

[Chuee]

70-30
=d

 

[Cassius.]

Oh word. I guess you win the debate then.

 

[iamjason8]

Awesome stuff BBR!

I'm surprisingly happy with this tier list, since past lists have often given me something huge to complain about. Now I largely agree with almost everything if not everything. =D

And lol @ Ganon tier.

 

[Thebest1pj]

move tl up one ploz

 

[PD4FR]

From what I hear, IC is worse for bowser than Snake for Loocas

Does Lucas really have a chance against Snake? I see your point about Bowser, though.

I thought Lucas got Marthed, not Snaked.

D3 will slowly drop some more if he keeps getting ICed like this.

As far as I know, they are both horrible matchups for Lucas.

Edit - Lol, I didn't see the new page when I replied to them, nevermind.

 

[Kaffei]

Good stuff =D

 

[Chuee]

Oh word. I guess you win the debate then.

Another win for the national theory fighter champion!!!!111111

move tl up one ploz

Yeah man he has bombs that blow up.
EDIT:@PD: A very small chance.

 

[Browny]

Pit
Pit's placement in the previous tier list was mostly formed based on speculation of yet-unrealized potential, but that potential (if it exists...) still has yet to materialize in regions other than Japan, where the stage selection heavily favors him. As such, he is moving down to a place which more closely corresponds to his present abilities in the US, Europe and Australia.

Fox
Fox is a reasonably viable, though difficult to use, tournament character who can hold his own against several top tiers. Watching TKD's performances against other top players, many BBR members are of the opinion Fox was underrated and might still be, despite bad matchups against Sheik and Pikachu, which goes to show a few bad matchups don't completely invalidate a character. It can even be argued that most characters in the game, including top tiers, have matchups they rather wouldn't stay in against. That said, Fox' bad matchups are on the extreme side and time will tell if he can live up to his potential.

Pokémon Trainer
It is the opinion of the BBR that while Pokémon Trainer has the tools to keep himself from dropping back to Low Tier, he rarely performs well in tournaments outside of Reflex.

Reading these 3 reasonings in that oder makes me lol.

"despite bad matchups against Sheik and Pikachu, which goes to show a few bad matchups don't completely invalidate a character" and how many examples of a top player actively counterpicking another top fox with these two characters do you have to work off?

At least have some consistancy. Everything in this list was going right the pit explanation and movement was perfect but fox's movement off one players performance while youre explanation for PT exists about reflex, well its hard to see anything but extreme bias here. I dont doubt he is that good (I think just not enough top players use him, just like peach and it will tend this way over time) but those reasonings are pretty weak and invalidate each other at this point in time.