Official BBR Tier List v5

[Browny]

Lucario has at least 10 frames of vulnerability after dair.Maybe 15. The frame data thread kinda confused me a bit. JCupsmash with in that time span with a fast enough upsmash makes it punishable by some characters. All i was saying.

Yeah thats 15 frames vulnerable at 0%

at 100% its probably around 11-12 and gets lower. Take into account shield drop time... its pretty safe :/

 

[Steam]

Yeah thats 15 frames vulnerable at 0%

at 100% its probably around 11-12 and gets lower. Take into account shield drop time... its pretty safe :/

JC upsmash doesn't need shield drop since you can jump OOS.

unsafe

 

[Browny]

well theres SOME shield-drop frame delay you cant input a jump and cancel it into a smash in 0 frames >_<

 

[DMG]

Ok. So Gallax said he thinks Lucario sucks and only places well from taking advantage of people playing bad vs the character. Someone agreed with him.

That's 2 people. Such strong influence over the BBR I assume?

 

[Kuro~]

well theres SOME shield-drop frame delay you cant input a jump and cancel it into a smash in 0 frames >_<

No there is no shield drop frame delay. It's pretty much why with pit he can JCUpsmash peach's dair and lucarios dair. It's 6 frames disjointed far reach etc. etc. There's more as well, like mk, marth, possibly fox, possibly falco, wolf, etc. etc. That being said, w/o experience, it might prove somewhat difficult to react to. Not to mention that the person would have to be accustomed to JCupsmashing in the first place. Which mostly spacies do and not many others. Though that's a bit redundant to my point.

 

[Shaya]

jc up smash isliterally a jump cancel
You need to have pressed jump and then input an usmash a frame later.

if your usmash is 6 frames, its 7 frames oos.

 

[Kuro~]

jc up smash isliterally a jump cancel
You need to have pressed jump and then input an usmash a frame later.

if your usmash is 6 frames, its 7 frames oos.

Thank you for that. I wasn't sure on the exactness i just knew there was nowhere near enough of a hindrance to reduce it's viability with good smashes.

 

[John12346]

Fox is NOT getting a Usmash if you properly space your Dair vertically and you still have your second jump

 

[Spelt]

if you're still in cool down you can't jump...

 

[Browny]

Ok. So Gallax said he thinks Lucario sucks and only places well from taking advantage of people playing bad vs the character. Someone agreed with him.

That's 2 people. Such strong influence over the BBR I assume?

Actually, its more the part where no one corrects them. Makes me wonder if they actually agree or were too lazy to say anything.

 

[John12346]

But Dair has a really ******** disjoint, large enough to outclass the vertical height that Fox's Usmash sweetspot reaches.

The task becomes even harder for Fox because Lucario's Dair causes him to stall for a bit, keeping him out of range for just that necessary amount of time to escape....

 

[Steam]

if you're still in cool down you can't jump...

fox's upsmash doesn't hit above him right away. it's the weak hitbox anyways

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

This is true... lol



There are no Lucarios in the BBR. and judging by the BBR discussion on lucario they know absolutely nothing about him. lol.

I'm forgotten it seems.

~

As for What Browny is talking about, He's talking about this thread.

Needless to say Lucario boards were not happy.

 

[Steam]

you're in the BBR?

 

[DMG]

That's a bit old. But I see.

Steam HUEHUEHUE

Look at where the thread is located. Lucario boards.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

you're in the BBR?

:brawl:

I have this post bit for a reason.

@DMG: It is old and it's not something a lot of the regulars forgot easily for the Lucs. Because a lot of info is...really off, Swordguard's post kinda speaks for itself. Even in 2010 people expected better.

I've forgotten about it for the most part, but it was one of the main reasons I did join the BBR, no one plays my character in it.

 

[Steam]

That's a bit old. But I see.

Steam HUEHUEHUE

Look at where the thread is located. Lucario boards.

I know it's in the lucario boards. I posted in it tons...

this is the post that gets me

900000x THIS!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously, Lucario is a gimmick and a half. He can grab you if he gets close enough, but his baiting tools suck, he can't use an offensive tool against a crouching opponent except forward roll (LOL), he doesn't get gimped if he recovers high, but can be edgeguarded, etc.

Pretty much, Aura is amazing, and people get hit by Fsmash a lot for some reason. MK's that don't know the MU get *****, but MKs that do know the MU (like me) destroy all instances of this character. Case in point, Ksizzle beats M2k with Lucario, but I typically win rather solidly.

Lucario doesn't destroy most characters. He seems good against Pikachu, but I can beat Lucario with even Jigglypuff, and I feel he outright LOSES to Mario. Not even close to top tier material.

His Utilt is his fastest move at F5. Grab is F6 with Jab. Dtilt is F8 I think. I haven't reviewed his Frame Data in a while, but the point is that his close range moves are underwhelming, so he's deceptively BAD at close combat when fighting others good at it. He can roll around to escape and land stupid trades to annoy you, but other than that, he's just trying to crunch enemy approaches and punish landings and dodges that needn't happen.

Mediocre character at large.

bolded parts are especially dumb.

 

[da K.I.D.]

No. Because in a debate team you don't choose your sides, you're just given **** to argue. This is the real world, people are held responsible for their decisions LMAO. Pretty much you make make my point even more hilarious because you're saying he can be wrong and then just ***** about how he's right. But if he does it in an "intelligent" manner then it's okay.

1. Were sitting here on the internet arguing about video games, Id say that just as far from the 'real world' as a high school debate team anyway.
2. I didnt really say it was okay, but if someones going to be wrong either way, I'd rather have someone put some effort and thought into their opinions and stances, instead of being ******** ignorant jackholes about it.

There's something to be said for intelligent posts. There's also something to be said about people who ACTUALLY know what they are talking about, or are willing to find out.

if you are going to tell someone to look into things and figure out what they are talking about, you cant be mad at them just because they come to a different conclusion than you. everyone processes things differently.

also.

inb4steam

but how do you know how good the character actually is? >.>

ROFLOL WOW@ THAT HARD AS HELL READ.
no wonder youre so good at the game lmao.

That's actually fairly well known. Lucario's attacks later on do more damage, knockback, shield push, and shield stun. More shield stun means greater chance for his moves to become unpunishable, especially when combined with shield push increase. That's not uncommon knowledge rofl. Hell, it's MORE likely for people to still be misinformed about how Sonic's homing stall under stages works. "Spotdodge/airdodge and he dies right?" LOOOOOOOOOL ohhhhhhhhhhhhh you fools

I love you sometimes. dmg too goodz.


for this next one im just going to name the first character that comes to mind.

There's a multitude of ways.

Results. Meta Knight
Theory Craft. Meta Knight
Frame data. Meta Knight.
Weight. Snake
Size. snake
Frame. isnt that the same thing? Snake either way
Natural Combos. Diddy, MK, Snake Falco.
Risk Reward. Snake
Killing Options. Snake
Pokes and Approaches. Mk, Snake, Diddy.
Camping Ability. Snake, Falco
Shield Options (such as oos, shield size, spot dodges and rolls). Meta Knight
Falling Speed. Falco, Fox
Mobility. Meta Knight, Wario
Recovery. Meta Knight, Sonic
Gimping Potential. Meta Knight
Priority. Meta Knight.
Dash/Walking Speed. Meta Knight, Marth, Falco.

Using only one thing is just ignorant to me. It makes more sense to factor it all in and really look at it, extremes tend to lead to bad things.

What did I gain from this excercise?
Nothing really. But it doesnt beg the question, When I look at that list, why do people think snake is bad now?

No there is no shield drop frame delay. It's pretty much why with pit he can JCUpsmash peach's dair and lucarios dair. It's 6 frames disjointed far reach etc. etc. There's more as well, like mk, marth, possibly fox, possibly falco, wolf, etc. etc. That being said, w/o experience, it might prove somewhat difficult to react to. Not to mention that the person would have to be accustomed to JCupsmashing in the first place. Which mostly spacies do and not many others. Though that's a bit redundant to my point.

many things that can be JC up smashed, can also be straight aerialed out of shield. mks nair is frame 3, 5 frames to get off the ground, and hes still faster than the vast majority of JC up smashes.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I really just wanna say we should let it go at this point Steam, it's water under the bridge and we know there are people who will hold bias in some cases.

Let's just work on the future and not stay in the past.

 

[Kuro~]

Fox is NOT getting a Usmash if you properly space your Dair vertically and you still have your second jump

THERE'S A REASON I SAID POSSIBLY FOX! WHy are yall so dam quick to jump on the only thing wrong and not acknowledge what is righ at the same time.

if you're still in cool down you can't jump...

I've already tested this with pit vs lucario when we did the mu thread for the pit boards back when i still used him. It works. I was simply pointing out that there may be others. and that dair on shield no matter the aura doesn't auto guarentee safety in every matchup like he made it seem.

Actually, its more the part where no one corrects them. Makes me wonder if they actually agree or were too lazy to say anything.

Exactly. Do you know the full story? Did u read through everything? Who's to say someone in bbr where you can't even go didn't correct them? I feel like the bbr is more full with open minded ppl rather than stubborn. At least from the one i've encountered thus far. And instead of whine why don't you try to do something about it and enlighten ppl. Complaining about the bbr in this way won't accomplish much. Though explaining your character (which u did although mixed in with the other part) is the best way to go about it.

 

[Steam]

but they took my baby away D:

 

[Browny]

Exactly. Do you know the full story? Did u read through everything? Who's to say someone in bbr where you can't even go didn't correct them? I feel like the bbr is more full with open minded ppl rather than stubborn. At least from the one i've encountered thus far. And instead of whine why don't you try to do something about it and enlighten ppl. Complaining about the bbr in this way won't accomplish much. Though explaining your character (which u did although mixed in with the other part) is the best way to go about it.

ummm

did YOU read through everything?

Youll find I wrote big responses, multiple times throughout that thread but by the time it was released to the public, almost no one from the BBR looked at that thread ever again. Thankfully a few did remain to... correct various issues with the overall thread but the majority never responded to the arguments all the luc mains threw at it.

 

[Steam]

ummm

did YOU read through everything?

Youll find I wrote essay responses, multiple times throughout that thread but by the time it was released to the public, almost no one from the BBR looked at that thread ever again. Thankfully a few did remain to... correct various issues with the overall thread but the majority never responded to the arguments all the luc mains threw at it.

and he wasn't the only lucario main up in arms about it. lol

 

[John12346]

THERE'S A REASON I SAID POSSIBLY FOX! WHy are yall so dam quick to jump on the only thing wrong and not acknowledge what is righ at the same time.

Well, because you were using a wrong example

I know Lucario Dair on shield isn't safe against a lot of characters

Next time just say Olimar Usmash or MK Shuttle Loop or something gay like that, lmao

 

[Ripple]

I won money with DK this weekend. everyone's argument is invalid

 

[Ishiey]

^ lol. Lucario's good enough imo, there's no reason to drop him into the same tier as characters like Wolf and Peach. At least, not yet

Also, I'm a bit late, but...

Ish what made you make a "High Mid" Tier. Not that I don't like the concept, it has been something I've been thinking about for a while but I just wanted to know your reasoning.

D3 is noticeably worse than everyone above him, and Fox is noticeably better than everyone above him, imo. I feel like I might be massively underestimating Wario, but he might end up dropping into this tier as well. Basically, everyone in high tier has some really stupid **** going on. D3 has that, but gets owned by MK and really can't do it alone in tournament, which is a noticeable step down. ICs can rarely do it alone either, but their infinites are a bit more applicable and rewarding in high tier compared to D3's CG, so I feel like bringing them down would be unfair. Fox is better than Wolf by a (smaller but still) decent enough margin imo because of an easier time killing and camping, as well as not getting owned by D3's grab shenanigans (there are a lot more pocket D3s than there are pocket Sheiks, and now that the smallstep / ledge infinite are legal Wolf has next to no business beating a competent D3 secondary that's bothered to learn the two). All the characters above high-mid have some very abusable qualities in almost every MU; all the characters below high-mid don't have any truly abusable qualities; high-mid has a decent amount of abusabe qualities but still carry enough flaws to differentiate themselves from high.

I think Dedede should be in the high tier in C Tier since he has cool infinites, locks, and chains like Pika and wario, but has some weaknesses like juggling and big target, wario is range, air release, and comboed go good. And Pikachu is being light and poorish range and power.

Also Diddy should be above Snake because Snake suffers from certain gimps and stuff and Diddy (along with mk) is one of the few characters who can combo very well. Also mk and mk shouldn't be in his own tier, ppl like Diddy keep him from overdominating and/or breaking brawl (Put MK first in top tier then Diddy, Snake, Falco, etc. in top tier with MK).

Otherwise, this is a good list.

D3's weaknesses are too glaring for him to be in the tier above imo. Getting ***** by MK doesn't help either. Diddy/Snake is always a close call, but Snake has been doing better results-wise, I'm pretty borderline on those two. MK should be in his own tier, this seriously isn't debatable lol

why do you think marth is 5th? how he he gotten better? :/

He hasn't, he's just always been this good But yeah. Strong MUs all-around, relatively good MK MU, no serious counters, flexible enough with the stagelist, and overall solid results are the main things. I don't feel like his "issues" are as severe/noticeable at high levels of play compared to everyone else in his group. Tbh, I almost wanted to put him as last in the tier above :x

*watches Ally's Wolf*

My opinion of how good Wolf's Dair is has gone up.

Ally made really good use of fair. A lot of his dairs would be getting ***** by SL OoS against someone who knew the MU imo X___x but still, Ally is legit as always lol. Getting coached by Atomsk too, that made me happy :3

 

[Yikarur]

jc up smash isliterally a jump cancel
You need to have pressed jump and then input an usmash a frame later.

if your usmash is 6 frames, its 7 frames oos.

but people need to know, that this is not the case for upBOoS. If you get on shield hit by a multihit attack with Marth you can always upB out of it because you're in shield in one frame and invincible in the next =D
you press Jump + UpB simultanously here without delay.

 

[Poltergust]

I despise Lucario. Absolutely despise. He basically defines why Yoshi's shield is bad. You can't punish anything past 30% on shield (and before then you have to literally be right next to him when he attacks, which makes it easier for him to get a grab), and even with Yoshi's good spot-dodge the hitboxes on a lot of his moves last forever and/or have very little cooldown, so it has to be perfectly timed or else Yoshi won't be punishing anything Lucario throws out. He can't even out-space most of his moves with his own. F-smash? D-air? N-air? Aura Sphere? F-tilt? D-smash? You name it, Yoshi can't punish it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Stop using a **** character, then?

 

[Yikarur]

Ishy, Allys Wolf is terrible

 

[Poltergust]

Stop using a **** character, then?

 

[Yikarur]

Yoshi is awesome, he has only one terrible attribute that basically destroys him

 

[Ripple]

Yoshi is awesome, he has only one terrible attribute that basically destroys him

the sakurai attribute. play tested and balanced by himself alone

 

[Exceladon City]

So Ganon won a tournament. Discuss.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

All the other players in that tournament were ****, then.

 

[Sinister Slush]

It only took 2000+ tournaments for it to happen!

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Ganon has won tournaments before >_>

 

[OverLade]

Results. Meta Knight
Theory Craft. Meta Knight
Frame data. Meta Knight.
Weight. Snake
Size. snake
Hitbox Data. Metaknight, Snake
Natural Combos. Diddy, Metaknight
Risk Reward. Metaknight
Killing Options. Metaknight
Pokes and Approaches. Mk, Diddy.
Damage output. Snake
Camping Ability. Snake, Falco
Shield Options (such as oos, shield size, spot dodges and rolls). Meta Knight
Falling Speed. Falco, Fox
Mobility. Meta Knight, Wario
Recovery. Meta Knight, Sonic
Gimping Potential. Meta Knight
Priority. Meta Knight.
Dash/Walking Speed. Meta Knight, Marth.

Fixed. All Snake has is weight, hitbox data and damage output. Most the other areas that MK is first Diddy and Falco still beat him out.

 

[Shaya]

People don't like Marth's gimping potential or shield options?

 

[Exceladon City]

People don't like Marth's gimping potential or shield options?

Would you please get out of Marth's vagina? I can't think of one time that Marth was known as a gimping machine. Mario, Sonic, Diddy, Pit and hell even Olimar are better at gimping than Marth. Diddy has better shield options than Marth. Please stop with this Marth fanboyism.