Official BBR Tier List v5

[Matador]

Not forget reading ability and unpredictability.

All the reaction time and execution ability in the world won't help you if your opponent knows exactly what you're gonna do before you do it and you can't figure out a pattern for your life.

Right. I feel that if a player is lacking all of these factors, they can't possibly understand it on the same level as those who are capable of using the same factors in tourney and contend with top players.

This is mainly because these factors come with practice...and someone who lacks the ability to use these factors well can't have practiced as much as someone who CAN use them well.

 

[Chuee]

To people saying Fox going down
Nope.avi

 

[adumbrodeus]

Right. I feel that if a player is lacking all of these factors, they can't possibly understand it on the same level as those who are capable of using the same factors in tourney and contend with top players.

Errr, no not really.


They're different skill-sets from understanding the game in a mechanical sense. Reading and counter-reading is a much more generalized skillset. Execution is about muscle memory. Reaction time is built in (in addition to that, it also tends to be factored into reading and unpredictability in games like this, for example some people are perfectly fine at this in games where they can take their time, but flounder on split second decisions).


Understanding the mechanics of the game and optimizing play based on them is about intelligence. Granted I would say that understanding reading is required (in order to understand mix-up game), but not necessarily the ability to read people at the pace required to play competitively. Consistent execution is definitely not required and and neither is reaction time, both are abilities that are far more important to top level play then top level analysis. Because both reaction time and analysis are purely technical factors, it's easy to analysis them from a purely technical prospective without being able to actually perform them assuming you're intelligent enough to do so and have the requisite information.

 

[Matador]

Errr, no not really.


They're different skill-sets from understanding the game in a mechanical sense. Reading and counter-reading is a much more generalized skillset. Execution is about muscle memory. Reaction time is built in (in addition to that, it also tends to be factored into reading and unpredictability in games like this, for example some people are perfectly fine at this in games where they can take their time, but flounder on split second decisions).


Understanding the mechanics of the game and optimizing play based on them is about intelligence. Granted I would say that understanding reading is required (in order to understand mix-up game), but not necessarily the ability to read people at the pace required to play competitively. Consistent execution is definitely not required and and neither is reaction time, both are abilities that are far more important to top level play then top level analysis. Because both reaction time and analysis are purely technical factors, it's easy to analysis them from a purely technical prospective without being able to actually perform them assuming you're intelligent enough to do so and have the requisite information.

This is actually rather intriguing to me, especially since the Mario boards were just arguing about this pretty much all of last week (and currently).

I disagree with the idea that some top level analysts can understand the game and understand why top level players are successful as well as actual top level players.

Even if you disregard execution and reaction times, all top level players understand mix-ups, reading, and prediction better than their fellow competitors, which is quite a feat considering the depth of those concepts. Why would those who aren't as skilled in those areas understand it as well as those who actually USE those tools at a high level of play?

There's understanding of what's going on in the mind of a top level player. The only superior ability that analysts have is the ability to articulate what's happening and post it for everyone to see and understand.

 

[Spelt]

I think recent results show very well that the highest level of execution and performance isn't going to save you from not knowing advanced game mechanics/matchups.

 

[da K.I.D.]

you wanna be specific with what youre refering to there spelt as opposed to just throwing out a vague statement for no particular reason?

 

[NO-IDea]

M2K's execution is absurdly proficient. He still drops games against characters in their highest level of play when he's never had prior experience.

That's the only valid argument I see arising from that statement. And even then, clean execution quickly closes the inexperience gap and produces tremendous amount of pressure on the opponent to meet the same standard of execution. There's no point in having the "experience advantage" if you're incapable of capitalizing on every opportunity the advantage provides.

Case in point. M2K rarely drops games. He doesn't drops sets against those same players. You can blame it on adaptability, MK, counterpick stage, etc.

But unless you're a usual tourney-goer, you wouldn't understand what "pressure to perform" means and how significant execution can be. Small mistakes add up and it's something theorycraft and top-level analysis can never properly measure.

 

[Judo777]

M2K's execution is absurdly proficient. He still drops games against characters in their highest level of play when he's never had prior experience.

That's the only valid argument I see arising from that statement. And even then, clean execution quickly closes the inexperience gap and produces tremendous amount of pressure on the opponent to meet the same standard of execution. There's no point in having the "experience advantage" if you're incapable of capitalizing on every opportunity the advantage provides.

Case in point. M2K rarely drops games. He doesn't drops sets against those same players. You can blame it on adaptability, MK, counterpick stage, etc.

But unless you're a usual tourney-goer, you wouldn't understand what "pressure to perform" means and how significant execution can be. Small mistakes add up and it's something theorycraft and top-level analysis can never properly measure.

So much truth in this post. Execution mistakes add up REALLY fast when ur playing as Sheik.

 

[Spelt]

you wanna be specific with what youre refering to there spelt as opposed to just throwing out a vague statement for no particular reason?

Uh, how about the fact that it relates to the current topic?

M2K's execution is absurdly proficient. He still drops games against characters in their highest level of play when he's never had prior experience.

That's the only valid argument I see arising from that statement. And even then, clean execution quickly closes the inexperience gap and produces tremendous amount of pressure on the opponent to meet the same standard of execution. There's no point in having the "experience advantage" if you're incapable of capitalizing on every opportunity the advantage provides.

Case in point. M2K rarely drops games. He doesn't drops sets against those same players. You can blame it on adaptability, MK, counterpick stage, etc.

not JUST m2k, but other top/high level players as well.
and losing a game because of poor MU experience is more than someone of m2k's caliber should be doing anyways.

But unless you're a usual tourney-goer, you wouldn't understand what "pressure to perform" means and how significant execution can be. Small mistakes add up and it's something theorycraft and top-level analysis can never properly measure.

I agree.

 

[Laem]

Pierce knows everything about brawl forever.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Sonic should be high tier.

Just thought I'd say that.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Meta Knight should be low tier.

Just thought I'd say that.

 

[Spelt]

Blip blop bloop a dee bleep.

Just thought I'd say that.

 

[Kaffei]

M2K's execution is absurdly proficient. He still drops games against characters in their highest level of play when he's never had prior experience.

That's the only valid argument I see arising from that statement. And even then, clean execution quickly closes the inexperience gap and produces tremendous amount of pressure on the opponent to meet the same standard of execution. There's no point in having the "experience advantage" if you're incapable of capitalizing on every opportunity the advantage provides.

Case in point. M2K rarely drops games. He doesn't drops sets against those same players. You can blame it on adaptability, MK, counterpick stage, etc.

But unless you're a usual tourney-goer, you wouldn't understand what "pressure to perform" means and how significant execution can be. Small mistakes add up and it's something theorycraft and top-level analysis can never properly measure.

I wish I had execution like that. Something that I've practiced countless hours for but I don't have the talent. :|

 

[Conviction]

Yeah I've seen that **** first hand.

He was practicing his edgeguard patterns and just looked perfect with little time for punishment.

 

[Kaffei]

Yeah I've seen that **** first hand.

He was practicing his edgeguard patterns and just looked perfect with little time for punishment.

I mean just look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EH0nuRXmHt0 lmao

 

[z00ted]

are you ****ing serious

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

I mean just look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EH0nuRXmHt0 lmao

LOL wow...

 

[Conviction]

Should have unplugged all the controllers and shoved his up his ***.

 

[stingers]

I wish I had execution like that. Something that I've practiced countless hours for but I don't have the talent. :|

sorry but I doubt your countless hours even begins to come close to the thousands of hours m2k has put into smash (mainly melee, but it carries over) practice. >.> his execution is truly godlike.

 

[Juushichi]

I mean just look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EH0nuRXmHt0 lmao

Indeed. M2k is just damn near razor sharp. Even now, though I think he doesn't put as much time into Brawl, he is still amazing.

 

[NearZzz]

ultimaterazers execution is da best

 

[Chuee]

Sonic should be high tier.

Just thought I'd say that.

Had a good laugh

 

[ShadowLink84]

M2K's execution is absurdly proficient. He still drops games against characters in their highest level of play when he's never had prior experience.

That's the only valid argument I see arising from that statement. And even then, clean execution quickly closes the inexperience gap and produces tremendous amount of pressure on the opponent to meet the same standard of execution. There's no point in having the "experience advantage" if you're incapable of capitalizing on every opportunity the advantage provides.

Case in point. M2K rarely drops games. He doesn't drops sets against those same players. You can blame it on adaptability, MK, counterpick stage, etc.

But unless you're a usual tourney-goer, you wouldn't understand what "pressure to perform" means and how significant execution can be. Small mistakes add up and it's something theorycraft and top-level analysis can never properly measure.

Correct, if the individual has "skill" essentially, it doesn't mean much of the other palyer cannot perform the sme thing. It is why I mentioned M2K earlier, he didn't have any knowledge of some basic parts of gameplay and he was still number 1.

You can know the game inside and out, but it won't directly correlate to a skill increase nor vice versa.

I wouldn say analysts can't properly measure, I would say they cannot measure it at all. They look at the game objectively, and quantifying factors that occur, such as performance pressure, the behavior of the crowd, the psychological effect of making a mistake. It is impossible to measre, so it is tossed out and not dealt with at all.

it is an issue the commuity cannot understand. It isn't that the analyst is saying the player is a failure, it is that they see what went wrong and pointed it out. They smply do not care for the psychological reasons for it simply because, not one individual reacts the same as the other. Some do better when pressured, some fall to pieces, and so it makes little sense for anyone to bash an analyst when its obvious why they say what they say.

 

[Luigi player]

You can know the game inside and out, but it won't directly correlate to a skill increase nor vice versa.

I think this is very wrong. It's true that knowledge alone doesn't make one the best, but it does help, even if just a little. There's soo much stuff to know about the game and it just adds up if one knows many more of those little things than someone else.

 

[Spelt]

I mean just look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EH0nuRXmHt0 lmao

Techs don exits?!?!!

 

[Orion*]

I wish I had execution like that. Something that I've practiced countless hours for but I don't have the talent. :|

Ummmm.... read stingers

sorry but I doubt your countless hours even begins to come close to the thousands of hours m2k has put into smash (mainly melee, but it carries over) practice. >.> his execution is truly godlike.

The amount he has put in pays off LOL

Correct, if the individual has "skill" essentially, it doesn't mean much of the other palyer cannot perform the sme thing. It is why I mentioned M2K earlier, he didn't have any knowledge of some basic parts of gameplay and he was still number 1.

What "basic" parts of gameplay. Its not like he's losing to randoms or something with MK because he doesn't know x character matchup. If he ever even drops games it's to other top players usually- even with some basic matchup knowledge to the extent that everyone knows the MK mu will naturally make it hard.

You can know the game inside and out, but it won't directly correlate to a skill increase nor vice versa.

How? Knowing you and your opponents options verse not knowing them automatically will automatically give you a skill gap vs a player that wouldn't.

anyway, for kaffei

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIniXcuW4tM#t=3m30s

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You can know the game inside and out, but it won't directly correlate to a skill increase nor vice versa.

How would you know? You're neither good at this game nor do you understand it beyond mid-level play. What do you base this claim on?

Just to be clear: this isn't even a troll post. I'm 100% serious.

 

[da K.I.D.]

You know something is serious when Me and Gheb are agreeing on something.

 

[Kaffei]

sorry but I doubt your countless hours even begins to come close to the thousands of hours m2k has put into smash (mainly melee, but it carries over) practice. >.> his execution is truly godlike.

Then I'm gonna practice just as hard

@Orion: I've watched that video about 20+ times in the past. I watch M2K way too much (in melee and brawl it's actually very unhealthy how often i watch)

 

[etecoon]

How would you know? You're neither good at this game nor do you understand it beyond mid-level play. What do you base this claim on?

Just to be clear: this isn't even a troll post. I'm 100% serious.

he vastly overestimates his own knowledge and thus makes the correlation that him being bad at the game = knowledge doesn't matter

not that I'm very good either but I've definitely seen the connection that the more I know the better I've gotten, studying the game is at least as important as being technically consistent, doing the wrong thing perfectly isn't going to get you very far either

 

[x After Dawn x]

I think shadowlink meant that just because you know a lot about the game, it doesn't necessarily mean you're good at it. However he's mixing up his terminology between causation and correlation because, if you are good at the game, you're likely to know a lot about it too, but it doesn't necessarily mean you would become good BECAUSE you have knowledge about it.

 

[Orion*]

You know something is serious when Me and Gheb are agreeing on something.

I LOL'ed

However he's mixing up his terminology between causation and correlation

Tbh, it's hard to say if he's mixing anything up because he didn't even respond to my second post, which pretty much had everything very clearly laid out in plain sight.
he just mumbled something after NOID and ignored me- which is perfectly acceptable it's his right as a poster to do what he wants, I just find it amusing (especially considering I took the time to write a non one liner in this thread)

 

[Kaffei]

Orion whenever you type non-1 liners they are always so interesting lol

 

[ShadowLink84]

What "basic" parts of gameplay. Its not like he's losing to randoms or something with MK because he doesn't know x character matchup. If he ever even drops games it's to other top players usually- even with some basic matchup knowledge to the extent that everyone knows the MK mu will naturally make it hard.

Ugh I would need to go forum digging to find out exactly. It was alot of stuff relating to dealing with Diddy's bananas that had existed for alooooooong time.

He also said it himself, he doesn't really study matchups that don't pertain much to his gameplay.
So he wasn't exactly studying the Sonic matchup when Malcom beat him since well, Sonic is irrelevant.

How? Knowing you and your opponents options verse not knowing them automatically will automatically give you a skill gap vs a player that wouldn't.

How?
Just to clarify, are you trying to say that because you have knowledge of the matchup automatically creates a skill gap?

Let us put it this way, if you and I were to play Sonic vs MK, and you did not know anything about Sonic.
More likely than not, I would still have a difficult time winning. Since while my knowledge is superior, you have greater skill in terms of execution.
If knowledge did cause an increase of skill, then I should win if my knowledge is so much greater than yours.

Furthermore, if I miss any of your posts, it is not intentional. Understand I am in the process of moving to South Carolina so I tend to be rushed.

he vastly overestimates his own knowledge and thus makes the correlation that him being bad at the game = knowledge doesn't matter

Assumptions make you look like an ***. You should not make them.
To be honest, this is the ONLY community that takes such a foolish view towards analyst, I don't see any of this nonsense in any other reputable game community.

Heck you can look at Basketball and watch at how Lebron was pretty criticized for similar views.

he vastly overestimates his own knowledge and thus makes the correlation that him being bad at the game = knowledge doesn't matter

not that I'm very good either but I've definitely seen the connection that the more I know the better I've gotten, studying the game is at least as important as being technically consistent, doing the wrong thing perfectly isn't going to get you very far either

Oh look, a hypocrite.
You are trying to relate your own experience to prove your argument, and then try to accuse me of such a thing? Really? *sigh*

@afterdawn: Yes unfortunately I have a habit of mixing the two like an idjit.

@gheb: Really? I won't deny that I am far from being high level. Hell it isn't as if I am in any position to practice at the moment but as to my knowledge and understanding of high level play? Might I ask if the reason for your second question is purely because of your disagreements with me, rather than the actual content of my post.

 

[Browny]

*grabs popcorn*

 

[Kantrip]

In summary:
Knowledge can come from both practice and analyzation.
Knowledge through practice affects skill.
Knowledge through analyzation affects speculation.
Skill from practised knowledge enhances execution.
Speculation through analyzed knowledge enhances watching the video and noticing mistakes.

Practice yields results, while analyzation brings regret.
So more knowledge can but does not always equal more skill.

 

[Browny]

in summary, BBR = purple name

treat them like any other theorycrafter, smile and walk away.

 

[Yikarur]

cyan name ftw

 

[Espy Rose]

It's a darn good thing that I have this fancy red name.