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Official BBR Tier List v5

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Orion*

Smash Researcher
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How?
Just to clarify, are you trying to say that because you have knowledge of the matchup automatically creates a skill gap?
If I play someone with diddy kong and they don't know the proper methods of dealing with banana's, what my general safe moves are, what my approaches are, how diddy can camp, how to juggle me and, how to ledge trap my options, they are going to have a hard time, especially if I know how to deal with their character.

Unless you are legitimately crippled you should be able to have half decent execution skill, it's brawl I'm sorry.

Let us put it this way, if you and I were to play Sonic vs MK, and you did not know anything about Sonic.
More likely than not, I would still have a difficult time winning. Since while my knowledge is superior, you have greater skill in terms of execution.
If knowledge did cause an increase of skill, then I should win if my knowledge is so much greater than yours.
It's not like knowledge is a one sided thing though. There are a large combination of factors that go into a match beyond the range of just having knowledge, or just having tech skill, or good reaction time, or trained reaction time, or reading habits, ect.

But knowledge in general is still important.

Ex: If I didn't know the proper followups to use, or what my killing moves are, or the fact that metaknights tornado has high priority, you could use all of those factors against me and be super greedy.
Then you could go further and past basics you can see if I know what the smartest options are to beat yours. Even If I have literally 100% perfect execution if I don't have an idea what to do I'm not going to win.

Ugh I would need to go forum digging to find out exactly. It was alot of stuff relating to dealing with Diddy's bananas that had existed for alooooooong time.

He also said it himself, he doesn't really study matchups that don't pertain much to his gameplay.
So he wasn't exactly studying the Sonic matchup when Malcom beat him since well, Sonic is irrelevant.
I put this after to make a point like you're saying m2k had legitimately ZERO idea what he was doing. But that kinda helps my point more than it does yours. The fact that M2K didn't have proper knowledge vs Sonic made him drop a game. The fact that M2K didn't know how to deal with bananas made him lose to Ninjalink and ADHD.

But because he knows enough about his character, and enough about sonic/diddy for the most part to know what beats what then he can adapt fast enough to still win the set.

If m2k legitimately had to sit down and go... hmmmm let's see maybe metaknights jab will beat spin dash? Is it safe to approach diddy head on with down B? How do I gimp diddy/sonic? Ect. He would lose.
Because he knows enough about the game and especially his character, In combination with all of his other strong points he is able to still able to adapt really fast. Is it always the most optimal choice? No, but to be honest he comes damn close to always picking the best option in most situations in comparison to any other player.



...
Because I understood what you where trying to point out I responded to the above but I find the example funny because

LOL at using malcolms match as an example.
A) That was like 2008 iirc, I remember being there for the match.
B) It's not like M2K had ZERO idea what to do, he had played other sonics before (I know because I have seen it). Had he played on Malcolms level before in tournament? Probable not because they didn't exist.
C) M2K always tried to go aggro, especially in 08, and would only camp if he lost.




TL;DR

You can't execute something you don't know how to do.
You can't react to something you don't know is coming.
You can't followup if you don't know what options are available.
You can't approach if you don't know your tools.
You can't defend if you know your opponents options.
You can't make a wall if you don't know what's safe.

edit:

Oh and here's my post you missed, I understand if you're busy moving. But when you get a chance read it

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12599262&postcount=14351
 

etecoon

Smash Hero
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
5,731
You can't execute something you don't know how to do.
You can't react to something you don't know is coming.
You can't followup if you don't know what options are available.
You can't approach if you don't know your tools.
You can't defend if you know your opponents options.
You can't make a wall if you don't know what's safe.
should be common sense but there's no point trying to convince someone that doesn't play the game competitively and literally just comes here for the sake of arguing
 

Kantrip

Kantplay
Joined
Jul 11, 2010
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B.C. Canada
You can't execute something you don't know how to do.
You can't react to something you don't know is coming.
You can't followup if you don't know what options are available.
You can't approach if you don't know your tools.
You can't defend if you know your opponents options.
You can't make a wall if you don't know what's safe.
I completely agree with what is being said, I can also see both sides of the argument. However, talking as though knowledge and skill aren't directly proportionate to each other is silly. Your knowledge will increase as your skill increases, and your skill will increase as your knowledge increases.
As I said, knowledge can come from one of two ways:
Speculation or experience.

You can't execute something you don't know how to do.
You can learn how to do something through analysis, and you will learn it inside and out, but your execution will be lacking because you didn't practice. On the other hand, you could learn how to do it through playing and discovering things yourself that you can execute perfectly by practising. The latter option may not yield you complete knowledge over the technique, but you'll be able to do it consistently. Build a strong foundation slowly from the ground up, don't drop the finished building on an unfinished lot.

You can't react to something you don't know is coming.
By playing the game and reading opponents you will learn instinctively what is coming, rather than having to research and look into all their possible options. You will learn for youself how to react and what to react to.

You can't followup if you don't know what options are available.
It becomes obvious fairly quickly which options are available and viable and which aren't. Just by playing your character you can get a feel to how you can follow up and with what. You'll begin to learn that what works for some characters won't for others and some players will be able to read you better than others. In this case, developing your own knowledge can be more beneficial than asking others, because playstyles will vary.

You can't approach if you don't know your tools.
Just like with the last example, you will learn your tools for yourself by playing your character and learning through doing.

You can't defend if you know your opponents options.
I assume this should have been "if you don't know your opponents options." This example stands out to me as one of the cases in which researching and analyzing will prove more useful than your experience, because compiled on most character boards are matchup threads containing a group of different experiences. You can research a character or you can try playing them in some friendlies and playing around with their options. At the same time, you could wait it out until you have enough play experience to know every character's options just from facing them.

You can't make a wall if you don't know what's safe.
This is for the most part the same as the previous example. Once you learn a character's options, you'll know what they can and cannot counter and what is safe against them.

My point is that no amount of knowing stuff will make you inherently better at the game unless you can apply this knowledge. This is why it is important to learn for yourself through actually playing as well as from analyzing matches and researching. Data and playing experience are equally important in my opinion.



TL;DR
Information is amazing and incredibly useful. However, you also have to play the game to actually get better, info won't do it for you.

 

T0MMY

Smash Master
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Oregon
Saw my name pop up in passing about R.O.B.
Sorry if I only made it to half the MLGs and a few east coast tourneys. Unless anyone wants to pay for my travel costs (which I have sunk THOUSANDS into) then R.O.B. will just have to be represented by the east coast players, and I'll have to be content with my wins against notable west coast players only :^p

Need a paypal account link to donate to me? ([^^]
 

ItoI6

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 14, 2010
Messages
383
Location
Oakland, Cali
Heres my own Low Tier Tier List.

E Tier
Kirby
Luigi
Bowser
Pokemon Trainer
Lucas

F Tier
Captain Falcon
Samus
Mario
Link
Zelda

G Tier
Ganon
 

Tarmogoyf

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 15, 2008
Messages
3,003
Location
My house, NM
Heres my own Low Tier Tier List.

E Tier
Kirby
Luigi
Bowser
Pokemon Trainer
Lucas

F Tier
Captain Falcon
Samus
Mario
Link
Zelda

G Tier
Ganon
Lol Jiggs is better than second worse sure, but no way in hell is she better than PT/Kirby, and I doubt she is better than Lucas. Also, Kirby isn't LT looooool

Jiggs icon givin you away lol
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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Slippi.gg
DMG#931
If only salty was an emotion instead of an adjective.
 

da K.I.D.

Smash Hero
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Rochester, NY
That just means he needs a hug.
Kid, If I ever play you in tournament, I'm going to give you a hug.:)
Id feel bad because youre the only zelda main that I wouldnt have to give a hug because theyre deluded about how awful the character is.

also, im generally a rather happy person. its just that swf is kinda flooded with awful stuff like MLP, and spelt is almost always wrong when he talks, that is just gives the impression that im always upset.
 

Espy Rose

Dumb horse.
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EspyRose
KID being a happy person sounds contradictory in the same way that it would sound if you were to say that Ganondorf was high tier.

Speaking of Ganondorf...
Think he'll ever move up?
 

da K.I.D.

Smash Hero
Joined
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Messages
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Rochester, NY
KID being a happy person sounds contradictory in the same way that it would sound if you were to say that Ganondorf was high tier.

Speaking of Ganondorf...
Think he'll ever move up?
KID be a happy person is actually more like if one were to say that Sonic is high tier, in that 'thats impossible until you actually start paying attention and learning about the character/person.' kind of way
 

san.

1/Sympathy = Divide By Zero
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I can see Ganondorf moving up a tier in line with the other characters.
 

Steam

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 30, 2009
Messages
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Location
Hell, Colorado
Sonic is not high tier... not right now... he's not up with G&W/Luc/ZSS and the like... He's also probably worse than the TL/Kirby/Fox bunch
 
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