Official BBR Tier List v5

[Supermodel From Paris]

I like ZSS' position as low high tier, Rapture. Game and Watch may or may not be slightly better than her, but it's really close, not really worth complaining about. Same with Lucario.

 

[PMC66]

I was thinking more bottom of high, but yeah... And btw, I had the idea to take all of the top 10 players of each character and rank them by the results their top players get, and look at pikachu (btw, i dont think he should be THAT low, these are just results):

1. Meta Knight
2. Snake
3. Falco
4. Diddy Kong
5. Ice Climbers
6. Wario
7. Olimar
8. Marth
9. King Dedede
10. Mr. Game & Watch
11. Zero Suit Samus
12. Lucario
13. Toon Link
14. R.O.B.
15. Donkey Kong
16. Fox -TIED-
16. Peach -TIED-
18. Kirby
19. Pit
20. Pikachu
21. Ike
22. Sonic
23. Sheik
24. Luigi
25. Wolf
26. Yoshi
27. Ness
28. Zelda
29. Lucas
30. Samus
31. Mario
32. Pokemon Trainer
33. Link
34. Ganondorf
35. Bowser
36. Captain Falcon
37. Jigglypuff

OMG at Pika!! :o There is quite a gap between him and Ike though...

The list I used was Rajam's brawl rankings btw.

Interesting.....

 

[vVv Rapture]

I like ZSS' position as low high tier, Rapture. Game and Watch may or may not be slightly better than her, but it's really close, not really worth complaining about. Same with Lucario.

Meh, I think G&W is almost better than them, but almost only counts in horseshoes and grenades.

Not worth it, though. I'm sure you ZSS mains don't mind it, like you said.

 

[Poltergust]

Weaknesses in a vacuum don't really matter. How much does it affect Yoshi's gameplay? Is he, for whatever reason, functional without OOS options? In what match-ups? How? That's what you should ask.

To answer this question, I'm going to quote something I said the other day.

Generally, characters that are good at pressuring [Yoshi into his shield] are bad match-ups for Yoshi.

That said, it's not like Yoshi is absolutely terrible in his shield. Spot-dodge is awesome, and we can shield-grab some moves (although the list is certainly not extensive). I've forgotten where I mentioned this, but Yoshi also has the best/worst roll in the game depending on whether someone hits his shield or not.

There's also the fact that he doesn't need to shield too often since his other defensive options make up for it. Of course, that is still match-up dependent, hence my quote.

 

[Espy Rose]

Meh, I think G&W is almost better than them, but almost only counts in horseshoes and grenades.

Someone else besides me finally said it.
I'm so happy that it hurts.
HURTS.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

That list is interesting, but top 10 is way too high a number for the Brawl scene lol.

Seriously, try picking any character except MK and coming up with 10 good players off the top of your head. It's pretty hard to do.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I can do it (has them all written down) :D

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Like I said, try doing it off the top of your head.

 

[Afro Boy2000]

I have a question. Are you really laughing your *** off, or did you just type that because you don't know what punctuation is and had to put something at the end of your "sentence?"

Why is that the thing your most concerned about?

 

[Z'zgashi]

Yeah probably not, but that was kinda the point. I wanted to include the non-hero players as well.

One more post to 3000, woot!

 

[vVv Rapture]

Someone else besides me finally said it.
I'm so happy that it hurts.
HURTS.

You like that saying, don't you Squidward?

 

[Zigsta]

I can do it (has them all written down) :D

Are there even 10 Bowsers on that list?

 

[Afro Boy2000]

^ I love this

 

[Z'zgashi]

Exactly 10 lol

 

[Zigsta]

Exactly 10 lol

No wonder he's so low on that list, haha.

 

[Brawlin]

@Illmatic, Fox is not better than Peach! He can get chaingrabbed to death by some characters. On a side note, Z'Zgashi agrees with me that Fox and Peach could be tie!

 

[Juushichi]

Do they all currently play Bowser?

 

[Z'zgashi]

I really dont know, all i know is that is says they main him on the list

 

[Zigsta]

Do they all currently play Bowser?

Well I know that Bowser's not next to my name as of the most current list. 2 of the tournaments I've used him at never had brackets uploaded. XD

The only active Bowsers right now are me, Limit, and Mreh in the US, with Ixis in UK, and KingKong in Canada.

 

[The Truth!]

Pikachu is fine. If anything he should have fallen last tier list, although bbr made the correct call then too. Anyways, Im going to quote a couple posts from the BBR discussion.

Since Dedede and Pikachu seem to be the ones being most closely compared here, let's pull up some data about the performance of the two of them. It appears that Pikachu is much less represented overall, and the #1 and #2 Pikachus are quite impressive. However, Pikachu falls off hard after this, Diddy Kong-style.

NOTICE: if a player plays, for example, Dedede and Meta Knight at a tournament, that player will get 50% points as each one. This seems to often be the case with Dedede, much more so than with Pikachu. Just look at the names.

[The above, as usual, is a listing of how many points each player has scored for the character for Ankoku's character rankings list in the 6 months up to and including May 2010.]

Raz and razek are the same people btw in that chart above.

I dont think pika should go above ddd. DDD is easier to learn and use at a higher level. TO use pikachu you really have to be smart and a well rounded player. The means crossovers and how to be safe when approaching or even how to approach. You can really represent ddd's play through a flowchart, thats how simple yet effective it is...

Yeah, ease of use shouldn't be a factor (I saw this mentioned in the Marth thread as well). If a character is hard to play and is already seeing success, that's a reason to raise his position if anything as there clearly is some untapped potential people have to catch up to. Even that's somewhat speculative though and hard to translate into tier list movement.

I'm also a bit wary of the constant usage of Ankoku's data. While it's a decent reflection of trends in the American metagame it's by no means complete because people have to actively enter their data in it and it's been pointed out to me not even all American TOs do so (though I'd assume the major events always make it). To name an example of where it might be wrong: two of Europe's top performers use Marth extensively, but I know for a fact many Europeans don't give Ankoku their data (I know we as Dutchies haven't done so several times because the awareness just isn't there), so his score will no doubt seem lower than it actually is. I'm not making a case for Pikachu regarding that, but don't treat the data (as valuable as it is) as the end-all for all arguments.

If I'm to interpret what Crow showed us it suggests Pikachu heavily relies on a few top performers, while the most succesful Dedede players don't get as much points as the top Pikas. If this is indeed because they use other mains as well, this makes the comparison somewhat questionable as you could argue Pikachu is more viable as a main than Dedede is.

And while this is from the Diddy Kong discussion, it applies here too

Diddy's only got two players doing especially well with him. After that he falls below Marth, then all the A tier characters (save Snake) kind of meld together. As I see it, there are two logical explanations for this:

1. Diddy Kong is a gimmick character, so that his success depends on there not being many amazing Diddy players to practice against. For theorycraft in support, see Swordgard's explanation above. Also, Gnes has admitted to this being the case several times.1. Diddy Kong is a gimmick character, so that his success depends on there not being many amazing Diddy players to practice against. For theorycraft in support, see Swordgard's explanation above. Also, Gnes has admitted to this being the case several times.

2. Diddy Kong is strangely unpopular. Theorycraft in support of this includes that Diddy is an unusually technical character that just doesn't chime well with most players.

The only thing particularly gimmicky about pikachu is his multihit dsmash, which people learned to deal with in 2008. Otherwise he's a standard MU. However MU knowledge is still important, just as it would be for any character you fight.

Pikachus position, just like other characters, depends on how you choose to judge him. If youre going to judge on ease of use, broken attributes, having more 60:40 MUs, how succesful he can be a midlevel play, and being well represented then he could definitely fall. However, if youre going to judge on how dynamic he is, how few bad MUs he has, and how consistent he's been then he could probably even rise a little. Overall hes fine on either side of olimar.

Last note, pikachu is the hardest character to use in the game. Technical skill aside,(where pikachu ranks at least among the top 5) the amount of above average options he has makes the mental effort difficult. Its his gift and curse. This is in contrast with say, metaknight, who at any given moment generally has a ton of options that are all amazing; or DDD who has limited options but the 2 or 3 he has are amazing. Pikachu has a ton of options that are 'above average' or 'ok', allowing for a given one to be covered. This is why its even more important than for other characters to be mentally aware of all options and to choose the best one in a way thats not predictable. I know this applies to other characters as well, but other characters can get away with not thinking much more than pikachu, he almost defines how important it is to not be predictable and being aware of what your opponent is doing. His bread and butter will get him destroyed.

I've heard multiple other pikachu players say this before, but after a couple matches and in friendlies its hard to really put in your best effort. Its not intentional sandbagging, but after several matches you want to play without having to think about everything all the time, or at least being able to put in slightly less mental effort. Oddly, virtually all of us also have secondaries that require little to no thinking effort(IC's, snake, Zelda, meta in most cases). Luckily tournament sets are only 5 matches at most

 

[Raziek]

I disapprove of this Pikachu main whose name is almost identical to mine. :X

 

[Orion*]

I have a question. Are you really laughing your *** off, or did you just type that because you don't know what punctuation is and had to put something at the end of your "sentence?"

ouch man, the grammer insults hurt a lot more than me telling you that nobody gives a **** what you have to say offline or online

oh, and shiek for still being mad underrated

 

[vVv Rapture]

Hmmm...is playing Sheik/Zelda really better than just going Sheik? I'm surprised that, if that was the case, people would go Shelda more.

 

[Meru.]

I was thinking more bottom of high, but yeah... And btw, I had the idea to take all of the top 10 players of each character and rank them by the results their top players get, and look at pikachu (btw, i dont think he should be THAT low, these are just results):

1. Meta Knight
2. Snake
3. Falco
4. Diddy Kong
5. Ice Climbers
6. Wario
7. Olimar
8. Marth
9. King Dedede
10. Mr. Game & Watch
11. Zero Suit Samus
12. Lucario
13. Toon Link
14. R.O.B.
15. Donkey Kong
16. Fox -TIED-
16. Peach -TIED-
18. Kirby
19. Pit
20. Pikachu
21. Ike
22. Sonic
23. Sheik
24. Luigi
25. Wolf
26. Yoshi
27. Ness
28. Zelda
29. Lucas
30. Samus
31. Mario
32. Pokemon Trainer
33. Link
34. Ganondorf
35. Bowser
36. Captain Falcon
37. Jigglypuff

OMG at Pika!! :o There is quite a gap between him and Ike though...

The list I used was Rajam's brawl rankings btw.

What is this list and where did you get it? @_@

Last note, pikachu is the one of the hardest characters to use in the game.

Fixed

 

[etecoon]

oh, and shiek for still being mad underrated

yesssss

very unforgiving of errors but she has some really **** attributes, the fact that she's nearly legal for low tier tournaments baffles me

 

[Renki]

Sheik gets hurts by pikachu a good bit, whereas Zelda is a lot more even against Pika. Sheik gets maimed by ICs, whereas Zelda is almost even with them. Zelda kills a lot easier than Sheik does, but Zelda's kill moves can be difficult to connect with.

Yeah, I'd say Sheik/Zelda is the optimal combination if you know how to properly use the duo.

 

[bigman40]

Weaknesses in a vacuum don't really matter. How much does it affect Yoshi's gameplay? Is he, for whatever reason, functional without OOS options? In what match-ups? How? That's what you should ask.

Sorry SPF, but asking that question(s) is a little over some of the mindsets from the Yoshi boards.

 

[Jas Shoken]

ouch man, the grammer insults hurt a lot more than me telling you that nobody gives a **** what you have to say offline or online

oh, and shiek for still being mad underrated

Go get ***** by Ramin's Marth some more, noob.

Gtfo of here with your copy pasta *** NJ Metaknight lol. You just another pot monster when the real players show up.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

i agree with that list crow, it seems after esam/anther pikas after that, other pikas just dont place as high-- which does make me wonder abit about pikas tier placement over DDDs. According to that list theres more data for DDD, versus the data pikachu has.

However consider this, the reason people wouldnt play Pikachu is simply because of what i've already discussed with tag[the truth]. And thats simply pika is just harder to play at top levels and doesnt necessarily counter other characters as hard as DDD. 75 Pages? lol yea those are mostly people and even top players utilizing DDDs more powerful secondary position. That and well hes much easier to master and play in a secondary position versus pikachu.

 

[Poltergust]

Sorry SPF, but asking that question(s) is a little over some of the mindsets from the Yoshi boards.

What do you mean?

 

[stingers]

ROBs are doing better and better these days. He should definitely be above Fox, Kirby, and TL on the next list

 

[MKOwnage]

Why did Ike raise?

Lol Ike sucks.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

^^^^^^ San and other notables on his level


how is ROB getting better anyway?

 

[MKOwnage]

^^^^^^ San and other notables on his level


how is ROB getting better anyway?

He's not. He has and always will be a lethal joke.

OHH R.O.B I think R.O.B is pretty good.

 

[stingers]

ROBs are getting a lot faster. Wavebouncing and fast falling during our aerials are becoming more widely used. It's helping us avoid all of the shield and juggle **** that was our main problem before.

 

[DMG]

Uh, you should have been doing that awhile ago. Why are you Nairing and floating in the air without getting to the ground?

 

[Dark 3nergy]

He's not. He has and always will be a lethal joke.

OHH R.O.B I think R.O.B is pretty good.

having played san myself you obviously dont know a lick about how precise and lethal the texas slayer can be please get out

Uh, you should have been doing that awhile ago. Why are you Nairing and floating in the air without getting to the ground?

most good robs do nair into the ground, or do rising nairs thru the base platform if people rush too quickly to the ledge

 

[stingers]

Uh, you should have been doing that awhile ago. Why are you Nairing and floating in the air without getting to the ground?

ROB mains as a whole bro. Our metagame is just advancing. And idk what you're even talking about with the nair thing, lol

 

[bigman40]

What do you mean?

You should be able to understand where I'm going with my post's simplicity in regards to his questions.

 

[MKOwnage]

having played san myself you obviously dont know a lick about how precise and lethal the texas slayer can be please get out

Yes i have seen San play and hes pretty amazing. Doesn't make Ike better than low tier.