Official BBR Tier List v5

[Blacknight99923]

the metagames aren't that different, especially between the US and japan.


We theorized one list that pit should rise because he had great planking.
it was shot down because there was nobody doing it.
we see a video where a top pit beats a top ice climbers utilizing his planking prowess over a set.

This is not the rankings thread this is the tier list. Its not purely about results.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

The metagames are that different. If they were similar enough that Japan could be used, Pit would have kept his spot. The simple fact that they only use three stages kills Japan's chances of being considered: there is no CP game to speak of. CPing is rather important to our metagame.

If it doesn't happen in NA, or maybe Europe, it's irrelevant.

 

[Chuee]

Niddo, they use more than three stages lol.

 

[Life]

Snake is still second because there wasn't any solid reason to drop him at the time of voting.

Also, Japan goes to absurd lengths to stop MK from timing people out.

Chuee: three starters (BF/SV/FD) and three CPs (Lylat/PS1/YI IIRC). Nobody apparently uses the CPs there though.

 

[Blacknight99923]

The metagames are that different. If they were similar enough that Japan could be used, Pit would have kept his spot. The simple fact that they only use three stages kills Japan's chances of being considered: there is no CP game to speak of. CPing is rather important to our metagame.

If it doesn't happen in NA, or maybe Europe, it's irrelevant.

I feel this is your ignorance of not watching their metagame. While the starter stages are drastically reduced its not like you are ONLY allowed to counterpick those stages. I've seen metaknights counterpick ice climbers to delphino in japan.

I was watching a japanese tournament stream for 5 hours yesterday, gaining insight to how even some of the top players we don't always see in videos play

the link is in here along with instructions ( the stream might be back up later)
http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=98884

They aren't playing aggressively, they utilize things like PSC (some do anyway) significantly better banana games, their desynches were flawlessly integrated into gameplay better than any american player I've seen. If anything I would say the japanese metagame as a whole is more advanced than americas ( minus character development in marth and wario)


You cannot overlook the japanese metagame when deciding how good a character possibly is.



edit at the above post.

that is incorrect time outs still occur in japan, a notorious one is otori vs nagahari where he literally pulls an m2k vs gnes

 

[Gamegenie222]

I also seen the japanese use shadow moses in a doubles match before as well.

 

[Blacknight99923]

Yes, I haven't seen it legal in singles however so I assume its doubles only.

Because there would be an influx in dedede mains LOL

 

[Chuee]

If anyone ever says Japanese players don't play to win, Im going to have to pull up the 9 minute 30 second Masashi match.

 

[etecoon]

If anyone ever says Japanese players don't play to win, Im going to have to pull up the 9 minute 30 second Masashi match.

even better

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5H_Jil1CBNs

 

[Blacknight99923]

Rofl etecoon

otori vs nagahari yeah we've seen dawg

 

[Yikarur]

why did the MK won? didn't they use LGLs or air time limit or whatever? o:

 

[Blacknight99923]

why did the MK won? didn't they use LGLs or air time limit or whatever? o:

I think its conceivable different tournaments use different rules, just like in the US.

But I can ask for the rules of this paticular tournament if this discussion wants it

 

[Yikarur]

Yes but they looked at end of screen stuff right at the end D: and they does that so fast that I can't think they did is just for the lulz.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I can't imagine why otori would run the timer if he wouldn't win unless he wanted to prove that he could.

I've seen "cliff grabs" as part of the rules on the SRT, this may have been a tourney using a LGL

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Chuee: three starters (BF/SV/FD) and three CPs (Lylat/PS1/YI IIRC). Nobody apparently uses the CPs there though.

So, basically like I said, no CP game. Heck, we consider those neutrals here. Even the most conservative stagelist in NA has more CPs than that. We base our MUs around that larger CP game, they do not. That changes how well various characters do, depending on the situation, and in turn how often they are used.

You're more than welcome to look at Japanese players for ideas of how to expand your game play, but it will not be relevant to the BBR list until players in NA start playing like that. It doesn't matter if their "metagame is more developed" or not. Heck, if anything, if they actually were farther ahead, we wouldn't be even able to conceder using their metagame. If you can clearly tell a uniform difference between the two, you can't have them both included when making a tier list: it's two different sets of data.

I should also point out it's not like Japan is better with every character. Some they, some they aren't. For example, their Ikes aren't bad, but they aren't as good as the top Ikes over here. They aren't better or farther ahead, just different.

 

[Yikarur]

I can't imagine why otori would run the timer if he wouldn't win unless he wanted to prove that he could.

I've seen "cliff grabs" as part of the rules on the SRT, this may have been a tourney using a LGL

what about the played out sudden death at the end? xD

 

[Blacknight99923]

So, basically like I said, no CP game. Heck, we consider those neutrals here. Even the most conservative stagelist in NA has more CPs than that. We base our MUs around that larger CP game, they do not. That changes how well various characters do, depending on the situation, and in turn how often they are used.

You're more than welcome to look at Japanese players for ideas of how to expand your game play, but it will not be relevant to the BBR list until players in NA start playing like that. It doesn't matter if their "metagame is more developed" or not. Heck, if anything, if they actually were farther ahead, we wouldn't be even able to conceder using their metagame. If you can clearly tell a uniform difference between the two, you can't have them both included when making a tier list: it's two different sets of data.

I should also point out it's not like Japan is better with every character. Some they, some they aren't. For example, their Ikes aren't bad, but they aren't as good as the top Ikes over here. They aren't better or farther ahead, just different.

They aren't any more different than tyrants metaknight compared to anti's

if anything I would consider japan as a region (not as a country) for purposes of a discussion that has excelled in their in the development of ice climbers snake diddy and pit without this utter dominance of metakanight mains taking every other local.

Unlike europeans we have had japanese players actually take part in the American metagame and compete at the highest levels. You cannot ignore the japanese metagame when you are thinking about this game anymore

however most notably(of american high tiers) ice climbers diddy and olimar are farther developed in japan ( and I would like to say snake too but ehh)

 

[da K.I.D.]

everyone talks about japan coming over here for one big tourney +6 months ago and acts like thats enough information to make decisions based on what they do over there. yall say that they did good vs our good people so we should include their info in what we do here when:

1. theres zero reliable way to do that consistently.
2. Last I checked, DEHF still stomped those dudes out that tourney.



also, as a sidenote, neither japan nor europe have any sonics worth talking about. The only good ones are in the United States.

 

[Yikarur]

K.I.D what is the quintessence of your post?

 

[Blacknight99923]

everyone talks about japan coming over here for one big tourney +6 months ago and acts like thats enough information to make decisions based on what they do over there. yall say that they did good vs our good people so we should include their info in what we do here when:

1. theres zero reliable way to do that consistently.
2. Last I checked, DEHF still stomped those dudes out that tourney.



also, as a sidenote, neither japan nor europe have any sonics worth talking about. The only good ones are in the United States.

I didn't base all my information on apex I follow teh japanese seen.


DEHF didn't "stomp" on all the japanese players. he beat rain in FALCO DITTOS (ROFL)
He beat brood having arguably the best frequent olimar practice in the world
he still dropped a game to I believe sweat pea and was extremely close to losing the set.


and even if DEHF did stop on all of them no one else seemed to be able to.


and who gives a **** about sonic? He beat a bunch of people who didn't know a match up. I guarantee someone like shugo would 2 stock X and espy

 

[da K.I.D.]

so the only person that can beat sonic is someone who was regarded as arguably the best sonic when he mained the character?

also, you dont need to know matchups to beat bad characters. So if you wanna say that, then I guess I can accept that as your admittance that sonic is a good character.

yika, what im saying is that everyone that just goes out and assumes that Japan is better than the Us at smash is just as stupid as those that believe america is the best smash country in the world with all the best players. The scenes are different. lets just leave it at that.

when koolaid or master raven start placing as well as masashi does, consistently, then there will be adaquate reason to say pit is good. but to say he should be high tier in the NA heavy tier list because of what ONE japanese dude is doing is just as ******** as somebody saying 2 sonic mains could get to the top 6 of MLG with out fighting a single person that knew the matchup.

 

[Yikarur]

also, you dont need to know matchups to beat bad characters. So if you wanna say that, then I guess I can accept that as your admittance that sonic is a good character.

Objection!
you can lose to every char if you don't know the match-up, people lose to Ganon because they approach stupid or stuff like that.
You can say you just say you don't need to know match-ups to beat bad characters.
People still get ***** by Zelda because they play the match-up wrong.

etcetcetcetc

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

We have good Pit players that place very good locally. Kool-Aid is probably the best Pit. Prince Ramen just won a nice-sized tourney in Florida with Pit. Then there's Masashi, who places really ****ing well in a part of the world with which we have no communication.

My suspicion is that Pit as a character is just fine, but his apparent flaws are really profound and there's no Pit player placing that we can communicate with and play often enough to know for sure. As Crow once said, we aren't ignoring Japan; contrarily, something very very interesting is happening. Masashi is probably the best Pit, and none of the people who put this tier list together have even have the opportunity to play him, so we just don't know what's going on at all.

 

[da K.I.D.]

you know what? fk florida

what kind of terrible backwards state has three dudes named ramen, raven and r@vyn, and at least 2 of them play the same character.

people dont lose to ganon just because they dont know the mathcup intracacies. if you lose to ganon, he had to be a fair amount better at the game than you. People dont just lose to bad characters like that. if it was that easy to lose to them, they wouldnt be bad characters.

also, the reason this was brought up was because of sonic and mlg, and with the amount of people that the two sonics had to play and the number of big names they took down, the generalising of the entire situation to say, 'well nobody knows the matchup' or 'lag tvs = sonic wins' is just flat out ignorance.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

They aren't any more different than tyrants metaknight compared to anti's

if anything I would consider japan as a region (not as a country) for purposes of a discussion that has excelled in their in the development of ice climbers snake diddy and pit without this utter dominance of metakanight mains taking every other local.

Unlike europeans we have had japanese players actually take part in the American metagame and compete at the highest levels. You cannot ignore the japanese metagame when you are thinking about this game anymore

however most notably(of american high tiers) ice climbers diddy and olimar are farther developed in japan ( and I would like to say snake too but ehh)

Actually, you can very easily ignore Japan while taking about the BBR tier list. Different rules, different mindset, different metagame. Why don't people seem to understand that there are multiple metagames out there, and that the BBR is primarily the NA metagame? Europe gets thrown in there a little bit due to a few European BBR members. Japan does not have any representation in BBR. Japan has a different metagame. Japan does not belong in the BBR tier list when considering things.

Really, this should not be a difficult concept to accept. Japan is not relevant to our metagame, except for when their players step into our tournaments, in which case those individual players are relevant for the one tournament they were in while in NA. You can't even begin to say that Japan is farther ahead of NA/Europe/Australia/Any other region. There isn't nearly enough of a cross over between the two metagames to decide that. All you can say is that they are different.

 

[Greward]

sonic is a good character. hes winning in US, so hes good. his tier list placement is stupid, he needs to go higher because he's winning. winning is everything.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

sonic is a good character. hes winning in US, so hes good. his tier list placement is stupid, he needs to go higher because he's winning. winning is everything.

I would sig this but my current sig is just amazing.

Also, I am amused a lot by the argument that Sonic has a ton of players, and that's the only reason he's placing well. How many TERRIBLE Meta Knight players are there? How many actually place well? Only a fraction of them, really.

 

[Nestec]

people dont lose to ganon just because they dont know the mathcup intracacies. if you lose to ganon, he had to be a fair amount better at the game than you. People dont just lose to bad characters like that. if it was that easy to lose to them, they wouldnt be bad characters.

also, the reason this was brought up was because of sonic and mlg, and with the amount of people that the two sonics had to play and the number of big names they took down, the generalising of the entire situation to say, 'well nobody knows the matchup' or 'lag tvs = sonic wins' is just flat out ignorance.

???

But yeah dude, that is a mistake many people make; assuming that a character can dominate like that just because no one knew the match-up.

A player losing a game due to match-up inexperience is understandable.

A player losing a SET is a completely different story, despite the fact that it may mean a 1 game difference. You cannot lose a set to Sonic and blame it on match-up inexperience.

This Sonic mess has gone on for too long. Everyone needs to (if they haven't already) accept the fact that Sonic has proven himself to be very viable in top level play. At the same time, Sonic fanatics need to (if they haven't already) accept the fact that Sonic is not quite good enough to make A Tier.

Spoiler

But I hope to god no one thinks that...

Actually, you can very easily ignore Japan while taking about the BBR tier list. Different rules, different mindset, different metagame. Why don't people seem to understand that there are multiple metagames out there, and that the BBR is primarily the NA metagame? Europe gets thrown in there a little bit due to a few European BBR members. Japan does not have any representation in BBR. Japan has a different metagame. Japan does not belong in the BBR tier list when considering things.

Really, this should not be a difficult concept to accept. Japan is not relevant to our metagame, except for when their players step into our tournaments, in which case those individual players are relevant for the one tournament they were in while in NA. You can't even begin to say that Japan is farther ahead of NA/Europe/Australia/Any other region. There isn't nearly enough of a cross over between the two metagames to decide that. All you can say is that they are different.

QFT

I'm starting to feel like the main disagreement here is where the specific focus of the BBR's tier list lies.

:green:

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I'm also loling at people going "ZONG, the only reason Sonic is doing good is because people don't know the MU" and other weak excuses like that. They don't want Sonic to be relevant to our metagame, yet some of them think Pit should because he does well in Japan? Kinda hypocritical, wouldn't you say? Ignoring the fact that Japan isn't relevant to the BBR tier list of course.

Ever thought that maybe, just maybe, Sonic isn't actually as bad as you think? X took out MK after MK, Espy never faced the same character twice. Sonic has proven himself to be relevant to the NA metagame. It would be very silly to try to take that away. You've got nothing to back that up. "Don't know the match-up" might work for one encounter: it does not for the most important MLG tournament, with two mains of that character, going up against either that character's worse MU, or a variety of characters.

 

[etecoon]

MK is considered sonics worst MU? not that I doubt it(I don't really know sonic that well), but its curious to me because it seems like sonic's actually do pretty well in that MU and just tend to fall short in general, he always seemed to me like a character that probably should be close to even with most characters but typically on the losing end

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I believe it's his worse MU at 35-65. But I'm not a Sonic expert.

Man, where is the horde of Sonic mains? Normally there is one when mentioning Sonic. I guess they are just being slow today...

 

[Nestec]

Sonic mains are never slow.

Unless that was the joke you were making...

:green:

 

[Ussi]

Believe its Wario that is his worse Mu.. Bite > Sonic

 

[da K.I.D.]

we can never get a real consensus,

but we are getting closer,

at this point i would say that half of us believe mk is his worst, the other half think its lucario, because the fact that we cant kill is compounded many times by aura, and theres a few here and there that think his worst is falco.

personally I think its between mk and ICs

@ ussi, people like you is why I get so pissed. there is no single move or tactic, or technique that beats sonic as a character aside from possibly aura. once again, generalist claims about beating sonic (or any non-low tier for that matter) are stupid, inane and should be done away with.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Isn't Falco in that list?

I thought MK, Falco, Wario and Lucario were the ones Sonic really had to watch out for

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Inb4 Shield>ZSS

 

[da K.I.D.]

well its true isnt it sfp?

and @ rick. wario is a clear disadvantage but imo it doesnt even compare to mk ics or lucario

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

It's no more true than it is for other characters. Shield is safe against ZSS when she shorthops because her grab is terrible but you have to consider that she put herself in the air against a grounded character which is almost never a good idea anyway.

 

[da K.I.D.]

most other characters have a 6-8 frame grab...

and/or a command grab/move that beats/breaks/pokes shields.

I would say its a lot more true for her than other characters.

i mean you can just fall back and side b their shield over and over and wear that shiz down, but shield is far more effective against her, than other characters. I would think you could agree to that.

 

[Browny]

and who gives a **** about sonic? He beat a bunch of people who didn't know a match up.

LOLLLLLLLLLL

Typical marth main. Who cares about results and evidence when I have conjecture and 08 theorycraft to back me up!

2011 and people still spout this absolute ****ing garbage about the game. goddam