Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[da K.I.D.]

alright, if you want to zss is bad, thats fine, thats your opinion, thats completely subjective and i cant tell you that your wrong. you want to say her matchup with DDD is misunderstood, I let that slide because I dont play either character to that level. but when you say that she is low tier, something that is far more quantifiable, thats when i have to come through and tell you that you are straight out of your mind right now.
lets look at some mid to low tier characters right now.

ness
Pokemon trainer.
Yoshi

youre really trying to tell me that because one guy has better reflexes than everybody else you play with, that ZSS is anywhere near as bad as the characters above?

Youre rediculous.

that doesnt make the character bad bro, it just makes you bad and him better than the other people he plays.

 

[Max Ketchum]

Cyanide, it's a hard exaggeration to call ZSS low tier <_<

 

[-Mars-]

ZSS low tier?


No most ZSS players just suck ballz.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Yoshi > ZSS. Lets make this happen.

 

[Orion*]

Na she's definitely top of Mid lol

Just spacing out the crap characters, good internal combos and good offstage/edge game make her not that bad.

She's better than like... ROB xD

I do think it's super hard to be good with her, and legitimately most people REALLY suck vs her. Watching chudat vs. NR made me like punch a wall almost >_>

He did everything youre NOT supposed to but he's just so damn smart it worked out pretty well anyway xD

 

[da K.I.D.]

i can agree to that, zss seems like a hard character to fight. whenever i fight one, i feel like im just going in blindly swinging and hoping to hit something.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Except when you are in said ranges, from experience you know some things are viable or not, therefore you generally can rule out said options outside of some extremely rare and situational mixups that rely on doing the previous ones to condition your opponent.

Also, powershield timing is super lenient lol

Powershield is 3 frames iirc.

In anycase, let us take option select. You force your opponent into using only certain options that you can then cover.
This is prediction, because you know what is coming before hand.
On the other hand, if your opponent is using say, Sonic, its much more difficult to predict what actions he will take. yes there are some that are favored, but overall you cannot simply predict the action.

Normally yes

But this is Orion and not some normal human.

idk how to explain it man guy dude other than orion makes it happen.

Your attempt to be funny makes me sad.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

ZSS's tier position is pretty heavily inflated as a result of tourney placings of one person.

NR is amazing and uses an average-to-low-tier character, that's what it comes down to.

@orion: I'm only hyping you in one MU broseph. :3

C: Toon Link, Kirby, Fox, R.O.B., Pit, Peach, Donkey Kong
D: Luigi, Wolf, (Zelda/Sheik), Sonic, Ike, Sheik, Ness, Pokémon Trainer
E: Yoshi, Lucas, Mario, Bowser
F: Captain Falcon, Samus, Jigglypuff, Link, Zelda
G: Ganondorf

She is no way on the level of D-E tier. Her tools may not par up to S-A tier but she's not on the level of those way lower.C tier we get some leeway, I could see some of them being better, but that is a big maybe.

My current perception of her is the fact she is stuck right next to Lucario, unless something changes with her or Lucario that is a major shift.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

i agree that zss is placed pretty much perfectly on the tier list. however imo pit is a couple spots too low

pit should be above fox, rob, kirby. next to TL, lucario, and zss (i don't care about the order of who goes where as i feel they are all pretty equall). hell he is mis repped on that MU tier list. DMG even said he didn't know how the hell they calculated that. he has more favored MUs than both of them (TL and ZSS) and an even amount of bad and even match ups. also as pretty much every1 i've heard agree with pit should be even with snake so that would be 1 less bad mu and 1 more even mu.

it's so dumb that pit has to keep proving he is as good as zss and lucario (and does prove it) yet he still sits lower than fox and rob because people always hate on pit. "pit is gay. pit sucks. pit does poorly in tournies". and back 2 pit going even with snake, has koolaid's victory(ies) against ally and other ranked snakes not proven that it's even? or wat about prince ramen in general nowadays?

im not trying to sound rude or something. these are just the points that i feel need to be made about pit atm. prove to me that pit shouldn't be next to zss and lucario and even with snake and i will concede said opinion

 

[Steam]

most complaints about pit's ratios are that they are too good...

and pit is honestly used so infrequently I often times forget he's even in the game.... seriously...

what national has he placed high in that shows he's on the level of ZSS and Lucario? has he had even close to the ammount of victories over good players that ZSS and Lucario have?

 

[Spelt]

and pit is honestly used so infrequently I often times forget he's even in the game.... seriously...

I wish i could forget lucario existed, but no.
Everywhere i go ... lucario, lucario, lucario.
Why didn't they just ****ing add bidoof into brawl, it would've been a huge step up.

 

[Chuee]

Earth placed 17th at Apex.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

most complaints about pit's ratios are that they are too good...

and pit is honestly used so infrequently I often times forget he's even in the game.... seriously...

what national has he placed high in that shows he's on the level of ZSS and Lucario? has he had even close to the ammount of victories over good players that ZSS and Lucario have?

they complain that they are too good? the only ones i see that are off are g&w and snake. snake should be zero. g&w should be -2. it is generally agreed that g&w is pit's worst match up. so where the -1 came from i got no idea

 

[Max Ketchum]

Earth placed 17th at Apex.

You basically just backed up their point.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I wish i could forget lucario existed, but no.
Everywhere i go ... lucario, lucario, lucario.
Why didn't they just ****ing add bidoof into brawl, it would've been a huge step up.

I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[Chuee]

You basically just backed up their point.

ZSS yes, but I don't see Lucario placing higher than that.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

come to think of it, do any lucario's besides i think trela (pound V) even place top 15 in the last say 5 major tournies? just curious as i've NEVER seen a lucario win a major tourney. although i must admit the same goes for pit. (and yes im excluding japan. if we count japan then i have this arguement in the bag tho)

 

[Max Ketchum]

When asked the question "Where are Pit's national results?" and the answer is "17th this one time, half a year ago," there's a problem.

Though, you are correct, Lucario does not have any national results either. Seeing that answer was just hilarious, because it's true.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

what will happen to pit on the tier list, mu list, and in the bbr when a certain Mystic pit player wins whobo3? i am of course referring to esca.... wait... am i? lol

 

[NickRiddle]

Na she's definitely top of Mid lol

Just spacing out the crap characters, good internal combos and good offstage/edge game make her not that bad.

She's better than like... ROB xD

I do think it's super hard to be good with her, and legitimately most people REALLY suck vs her. Watching chudat vs. NR made me like punch a wall almost >_>

He did everything youre NOT supposed to but he's just so damn smart it worked out pretty well anyway xD

In my defense...
I literally only d-smashed for most of that set.
I don't d-smash THAT much.
Close, but not quite.
I also wasn't paying enough attention to notice his air-dodge habit right after every hit until the end of the second match.
/johns

 

[Steam]

lee has placed high using lucario but not fully...

I'll dig through other national results... I know Lucario has placed VERY highly at regionals though. iirc Zucco took 2nd at a regional not too long ago. not sure what June and Trela have done past the local level.

do pits even do anything of note at the regional/ even local level?

 

[phi1ny3]

Lee's Lucario got some coverage at Apex 2010 if one wants to dig that far lol.
Trela got Pound V, and has been doing work in TX pretty hard.
Zucco did some serious damage at SiiS2, taking 2nd iirc, although I'm not sure if that's a national level or not (lots of players though, like 82 or something), in more of his prime, he's usually managed to get top 8 a lot.

Junebug, while he hasn't taken tons of national claim (although I'm sure one could scrounge up a tourney with a fairly large attendance with him taking top 10 at least), has gotten pretty high results within that level tournament wise, and has taken lots of firsts at locals.

top 8? Not often

top 15? actually, you start to see a lucario pop in here and there very frequently.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

like i said. prince ramen won that tourney in florida about 2 months ago with several of florida's PRs there. im not sure about regionals tho. pit's main problem is not enough people play him as opposed to lucario. like seriously why do so many people use him? ya hes great and all but he has so much representation compared to pit it is unbelievable.

sidenote: just want to keep this clear in mind while this is discussed. i do NOT believe pit to be better than lucario. i think that given ratios of representation it is impossible to know unless way more people start picking up pit or us few pits start actually even GOING to regionals. i think they are equal.

we will see how us pits (me and esca) do at whobo3 friday. to my knowledge this is going to be the first time since i don't even know when that 2 people are going 100% pit at a regional tourney. in fact we should put this off until we see our results at the tourney and compare them to lucario results (trela will be there to rep that).

while as i player i may be outclassed, i have never actually had motivation to go full out at a tourney before and have never been to a regional besides WG4 and i choked (gimped myself 2 match rounds). i need the prize money for getting a new apartment. and esca is just flat out amazing already. like i said lets put this off until whobo3 is over

 

[Steam]

Lucarios have been starting to beat notable players as well...

but just looking through the MLGs....

at MLG DC Junebug and Zucco got 17th, matching earth's placing... Trela didn't attend

at MLG Columbus Lee took 4th, none of the other top lucarios attended

at MLG Raleigh Lee got 2nd, Zucco got 33rd and none of the other top lucarios attended

at MLG Dallas Trela got 13th in the normal bracket and lee got 7th in the championship bracket....

so just from those even if you take away Lee completely (he does use mostly MK anyways) Lucario stlil places the same or better quite often...

 

[fkacyan]

Cyanide, it's a hard exaggeration to call ZSS low tier <_<

Depends on how you look at tiers.

If you put things in a ranked list without actually showing the real gaps between the ranks, things appear to be a lot different than they actually are.

@Shadowlink: What makes you think I have ever cared about your opinion about me in any shape or form?

8|

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Lee had some national results with Lucario.

 

[Steam]

and back at Apex lee used a lot more Lucario than normal...

 

[san.]

I WISH Lee used Lucario against me at Apex pools.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

He went MK in pools because Lucario takes longer than MK to finish opponents.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

i wish there had been a single pit at any of these tournies. but there wasn't.

@cyanide. that topics over and done with. leave it alone

 

[Orion*]

In anycase, let us take option select. You force your opponent into using only certain options that you can then cover.
This is prediction, because you know what is coming before hand.
On the other hand, if your opponent is using say, Sonic, its much more difficult to predict what actions he will take. yes there are some that are favored, but overall you cannot simply predict the action.

Who needs to predict when you can cover multiple options with one choice.

Option covering =/= prediction
Its just safe/reliable play

What does sonic have to do with anything.

My current perception of her is the fact she is stuck right next to Lucario, unless something changes with her or Lucario that is a major shift.

I think lucarios mid tier also so LOL

In my defense...
I literally only d-smashed for most of that set.
I don't d-smash THAT much.
Close, but not quite.
I also wasn't paying enough attention to notice his air-dodge habit right after every hit until the end of the second match.
/johns

I wasn't trying to take the win away from you. There are literally like millions of factors that can happen in tournament matches from anything, and in the end you won.

I'm just surprised chudat did that well because as far as textbook play is concerned he played very suboptimal

Textbooks only get you so far in life though

I WISH Lee used Lucario against me at Apex pools.

/saltylowtiermains<3

 

[Tesh]

@ maharba , I'm sure those tournaments had Pits.

 

[fkacyan]

i wish there had been a single pit at any of these tournies. but there wasn't.

@cyanide. that topics over and done with. leave it alone

Who the **** are you, and why are you telling me what to do?

8|

 

[Steam]

He went MK in pools because Lucario takes longer than MK to finish opponents.

and because ike goes almost even with lucario :D

I also wish Lucario was mid-tier. That way Lucarios would **** mid-tier tournies. Unless he had to play good foxes

 

[Lenus Altair]

@ maharba , I'm sure those tournaments had Pits.

That doesn't address the skill level of those who represented Pit.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Don't be nasty.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

you want to know who i am? my name is abe. now you know who i am. and im telling you wat the **** to do because this is the internet and i feel like it. that topic isn't going anywhere. no1 believes it's in DDD's favor at all ever. no matter wat tier people may think ZSS is, her current placement is based off of results and statistics and thus unless you can change those it is pointless to argue that she shouldn't be there. that's why i decided to hold off on the pit lucario discussion, to wait for some legit facts to possibly get changed. and that's why you will not get anywhere with this arguement about ZSS being bad or losing to DDD because you have no statistical proof. and in the world of brawl, statistics are all that matter

 

[Tesh]

That doesn't address the skill level of those who represented Pit.

Okay, are you saying none of the best Pits attend any nationals ever?

Or are you saying that no good players in the US main pit?

Because either way pit doesn't have much of anything for national results. Less impressive results than folks below and around him actually.

 

[fkacyan]

you want to know who i am? my name is abe. now you know who i am. and im telling you wat the **** to do because this is the internet and i feel like it. that topic isn't going anywhere. no1 believes it's in DDD's favor at all ever. no matter wat tier people may think ZSS is, her current placement is based off of results and statistics and thus unless you can change those it is pointless to argue that she shouldn't be there. that's why i decided to hold off on the pit lucario discussion, to wait for some legit facts to possibly get changed. and that's why you will not get anywhere with this arguement about ZSS being bad or losing to DDD because you have no statistical proof. and in the world of brawl, statistics are all that matter

>statistics
>this matchup chart

You just went full ******, bro, NEVER go full ******

 

[Orion*]

her current placement is based off of results and statistics and thus unless you can change those it is pointless to argue that she shouldn't be there.

She's actually there because enough people in the BBR voted her to be there.