Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[fkacyan]

I think there's merit in what you're saying, though. That seems reasonable.

More than merit; Orion 3-0'd some poor ZSS in the matchup the other day using the base strategy I mentioned plus his inhuman ****ing reaction time.

I don't think Mr R is terrible, being a player that can win nationals, but then maybe I'm missing something you're all not!

Yeah right.

 

[fkacyan]

You're betting $100 that a MK's mains D3 can beat the best ZSS?
Good luck with that

Or more, if people want to sidebet more.

Orion is probably the best player against ZSS in the world. Maybe ESAM is as good or better, he's the only reason I say 'probably.'

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

And M2k says Diddy beats MK.

Riddle isn't M2K, not comparable.

NR, if you sideB at D3 it has more than enough startup to reliably PS and dashgrab essentially every time.

ZSS's grab also has a ton of startup.

Why would D3 do anything? If D3 stands in place ZSS has zero approach vectors that are safe. Are you patient enough to let a match sit at 0%/0%?

I've been tempted for a while to sit down and timestamp evaluate a few matches that perfectly illustrate what D3 has to do to win but it'd be fairly time consuming because essentially every D3 spends 95% of the time playing the match wrong and only 5% playing it right, after which they immediately revert to what they think they should be doing.

Anyways, any takers in advance on that sidebet? Starting at $100.

Well, do this for them and let's see how it goes.

 

[fkacyan]

Riddle isn't M2K, not comparable.

The fallacy of appeal to authority is the same in both cases.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

More than merit; Orion 3-0'd some poor ZSS in the matchup the other day using the base strategy I mentioned plus his inhuman ****ing reaction time.

I don't think Mr R is terrible, being a player that can win nationals, but then maybe I'm missing something you're all not!

Yeah right.

Your trying to base this on two players, both of which don't main the characters they were playing, to say they were playing the MU correctly.

The fallacy of appeal to authority is the same in both cases.

More like I looked at people who debunked his reasoning and showed him wrong.

 

[fkacyan]

Your trying to base this on two players, both of which don't main the characters they were playing, to say they were playing the MU correctly.

Character mains don't always play matchups properly, nor are you required to main a character to know how to play certain matchups with that character.

Not to mention ZSS v D3 is supposedly a hard counter in her favor, and ZSS mains frequently distill it to essentials rather than small tricks that leads the matchup to the status.

You don't really need to know how to play D3 to beat ZSS. All you need to know is ZSS's timing and then how to press the grab button.

EDIT:

For the record, NickRiddle said to approach D3's shield with SideB, a move that has absurd startup and a whopping 12 frames of self-stun for the 1 frame of shield stun on a NON powershield. D3 doesn't even have to PS that to grab her for it.

 

[Laem]

ZSS really can just stand there and dsmash, though.
maybe even walk forward a bit and dsmash, if shes got balls

 

[fkacyan]

ZSS really can just stand there and dsmash, though.
maybe even walk forward a bit and dsmash, if shes got balls

D3's ftilt outspaces dsmash by a large margin and dmsash has enough startup that you can generally hit them if they try to walk up to you.

The MU is a lot more forgiving on D3, especially considering ZSS has no grounded way to kill (Which is really really bad, because jumping guarantees you will incur landing lag or getup lag at some point in time).

 

[Chuee]

D3's ftilt outspaces dsmash by a large margin and dmsash has enough startup that you can generally hit them if they try to walk up to you.

The MU is a lot more forgiving on D3, especially considering ZSS has no grounded way to kill (Which is really really bad, because jumping guarantees you will incur landing lag or getup lag at some point in time).

D3's ftilt also has startup and is punishable.

 

[NickRiddle]

Character mains don't always play matchups properly, nor are you required to main a character to know how to play certain matchups with that character.

Not to mention ZSS v D3 is supposedly a hard counter in her favor, and ZSS mains frequently distill it to essentials rather than small tricks that leads the matchup to the status.

You don't really need to know how to play D3 to beat ZSS. All you need to know is ZSS's timing and then how to press the grab button.

EDIT:

For the record, NickRiddle said to approach D3's shield with SideB, a move that has absurd startup and a whopping 12 frames of self-stun for the 1 frame of shield stun on a NON powershield. D3 doesn't even have to PS that to grab her for it.

For the record, I mentioned a well spaced one on a DDD that is just standing there and shielding.
Can DDD really punish a well-spaced retreating side-b with something other than his low-damage f-tilt?

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

zss has cg and locks on D3 too. and she can punish his ftilt with DA lock to the edge. although D3 can force an approach with waddle dees, i think zss has more options per move than D3 does overall which is why it is in her favor imo

but then again i main pit so i don't care bout this match up against D3 as i already win it

 

[Z'zgashi]

@Nick Riddle: Lucky gordo :D

 

[Coney]

Can DDD really punish a well-spaced retreating side-b with something other than his low-damage f-tilt?

not to my knowledge

i mean, -2 might be a little harsh and it might've been a knee-jerk reaction from just playing nick, but it's definitely not any better than -1. i'll believe it when i see it, i guess. orion's a smart guy that i have a lot of respect for, so i don't doubt him completely, but i'll hold my reservations.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Character mains don't always play matchups properly, nor are you required to main a character to know how to play certain matchups with that character.

Not to mention ZSS v D3 is supposedly a hard counter in her favor, and ZSS mains frequently distill it to essentials rather than small tricks that leads the matchup to the status.

You don't really need to know how to play D3 to beat ZSS. All you need to know is ZSS's timing and then how to press the grab button.

They aren't but I haven't seen anything to suggest that they are wrong about the MU. Even more so when Coney vs Riddle seemed to showcase what they were talking about. Hard counter is not what I would have gone for either, but it's not even or in DDD's favor that much I do trust from the ZSS and DDD mains, which they are saying at a top level.

For the record, NickRiddle said to approach D3's shield with SideB, a move that has absurd startup and a whopping 12 frames of self-stun for the 1 frame of shield stun on a NON powershield. D3 doesn't even have to PS that to grab her for it.

Sounds like bad spacing if she gets grabbed. PS maybe.

Also you seem to be avoiding the issue of what DDD has to do when he has to approach or makes a mistake. DDD has a lot more to deal with when he screws up compared to ZSS.

 

[Coney]

well to be fair, i could be playing the matchup wrong

i have a history of playing matchups incorrectly like snake, wario, etc. so if there WAS a way to completely shut down zss, i wouldn't be the one to know it

however, seibrik is a much smarter player than i am and he's played NR for much longer, so HE, of all people, would have developed something for it, i think. his ddd is still really good. i'm trusting FL's opinion on the matchup, because i was so skeptical for so long before playing nick myself and realizing while it isn't as bad as they claimed, it's definitely not even, like i thought.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

LOL Theocyanide has a habit of getting beaten by Orion with ZSS and then claiming it's hopeless no matter what character he's playing.

Theo you're ridiculous. Someone's pocket DDD beat some other player's pocket ZSS and you're here raving about it once again. Go away.

 

[fkacyan]

For the record, I mentioned a well spaced one on a DDD that is just standing there and shielding.
Can DDD really punish a well-spaced retreating side-b with something other than his low-damage f-tilt?

Dash powershield to dashgrab, or uptilt if you're especially spicy.

The spacing on sideB rarely matters once somebody learns the timing to powershield it reliably, and even if they don't if the spacing isn't almost perfect it has so much shieldlag for ZSS that you can punish it a lot of the time anyways. SideB is actually a pretty bad move (And using it often decays one of her safer killing options).

Kirbies has played the MU correctly at times but he still suffers from D3 sydnrome, i.e. lapsing into common D3 habits that allow ZSS to easily dominate the character.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Dash powershield to dashgrab, or uptilt if you're especially spicy.

The spacing on sideB rarely matters once somebody learns the timing to powershield it reliably, and even if they don't if the spacing isn't almost perfect it has so much shieldlag for ZSS that you can punish it a lot of the time anyways. SideB is actually a pretty bad move (And using it often decays one of her safer killing options).

Kirbies has played the MU correctly at times but he still suffers from D3 sydnrome, i.e. lapsing into common D3 habits that allow ZSS to easily dominate the character.

Punishing with Utilt sends me an immediate red light that side-B is being spaced really poorly if DDD is close enough to perform that on her.

 

[Coney]

Dash powershield to dashgrab, or uptilt if you're especially spicy.

this...

this simply does not work

we're talking well-spaced, retreating side-b here, right? as in, falling from the air, spaced at the very tip, right?

pretty sure dashgrab doesn't work (ddd has slow run speed and zss has a frame one jab) and i'm certain as hell that utilt will never work.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Side-b is pretty safe at a good distance. The range is surprisingly long:

I'm sorry, but King Dedede can't PS the tip of that and grab you.

There are a few characters that can PS and hurt you, but most of them have stupid fast ground speed (not Dedede). Also, almost nothing is safe on PS, or on shield for that matter.

Yeah, like, I wouldn't bair Dedede's shield

 

[fkacyan]

Punishing with Utilt sends me an immediate red light that side-B is being spaced really poorly if DDD is close enough to perform that on her.

You can walk forward and uptilt her from the majority of the spacings that you can fire sideB from, and given that ZSS is in the air you can freely chase her before she's at the height where the sideB can hit you because her jump is ludicrous (So is her shorthop), and none of her other moves will connect either.

The last thing ZSS wants to do in this MU is jump when she doesn't have to. She's very easy to chase from the ground, even with D3.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You can walk forward and uptilt her from the majority of the spacings that you can fire sideB from, and given that ZSS is in the air you can freely chase her before she's at the height where the sideB can hit you because her jump is ludicrous (So is her shorthop), and none of her other moves will connect either.

The last thing ZSS wants to do in this MU is jump when she doesn't have to. She's very easy to chase from the ground, even with D3.

You can't be serious.

Well spaced Side B can't be punished by Utilt, or even dashgrab in cases where it is spaced right.

 

[Laem]

ramins zss is no joke btw
and orion deff isn't just some mk player
thio is deff making a point here

its just that i still dont agree with it cuz im still raging that zss dsmash hits dededes arm as he extends it right before an ftilt
cuz dedede has a relatively hard time (by that i mean way more so than zss) fighting off the nB's and sideB's
cuz the mere trick of nB > dashgrab works well if dedede isnt set on spotdodging/rolling, the former which gets easily beaten by zss DA (which she'd use instead of dashgrab, tricksies and stuff)
cuz dsmash is uber safe.....stops dededes projectiles as well (except gordo i guess, though wouldnt be suprised if it canceled that as well LOOOL)

all in all
i guess a perfect dedede has a shot
if dedede gets hit he gets his fat *** combo'd, way more so than the other way around
so no, im still not buying it

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

R's ZSS is pretty good, but we are talking about his like secondary ZSS vs. some guy that has years and years of vs. ZSS experience While R has no real Dedede MU (unless there's some Ramin-level Dedede in the Netherlands) experience, I'm not sure why Thio has a point at all.

 

[Coney]

You can walk forward and uptilt her from the majority of the spacings that you can fire sideB from,

dude

what

 

[fkacyan]

You can't be serious.

Well spaced Side B can't be punished by Utilt.

What's your defintion of well-spaced?

Well spaced as in actually at the tip of the hitbox or well spaced as in actually spaced during a match?

If ZSS is next to D3 and jumps out short of a downB footstool she's never going to get to optimal spacing. She has no way of punishing D3 running under and after her, because even her short hop takes her above where she can hit him.

Yeah, I think I'm gonna timestamp evaluate some matches after raid tonight so you guys have some loose idea of what I'm talking about here. It's clear NR has led you guys by the nose in all the matches you've played against him.

EDIT: @coney: If she's using retreating sideB from an area she can get good spacing, you dont chase it. If shes using it to cover an escape from inside your range, she can't possible get good enough spacing to avoid utilt if you have the dash-PS down on her.

It sounds like I'm smoking crack but it can happen, broski.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

you can walk forward and uptilt her from the majority of the spacings that you can fire sideb from

loooooool.

 

[Coney]

It's clear NR has led you guys by the nose in all the matches you've played against him.

are you serious? literally 3/4 of your posts are bashing zero suit, and we're supposed to be taking you seriously when you cry wolf now? when an extremely rare euro character beats a good player's secondary in a purportedly bad matchup, you blow the whistle and tell everyone else they're doing it wrong?

don't condescend to me, you clown.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

are you serious? literally 3/4 of your posts are bashing zero suit, and we're supposed to be taking you seriously when you cry wolf now? when an extremely rare euro character beats a good player's secondary in a purportedly bad matchup, you blow the whistle and tell everyone else they're doing it wrong?

don't condescend to me, you clown.

coney layin' it down

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

What's your defintion of well-spaced?

Well spaced as in actually at the tip of the hitbox or well spaced as in actually spaced during a match?

If ZSS is next to D3 and jumps out short of a downB footstool she's never going to get to optimal spacing. She has no way of punishing D3 running under and after her, because even her short hop takes her above where she can hit him.

Yeah, I think I'm gonna timestamp evaluate some matches after raid tonight so you guys have some loose idea of what I'm talking about here. It's clear NR has led you guys by the nose in all the matches you've played against him.

EDIT: @coney: If she's using retreating sideB from an area she can get good spacing, you dont chase it. If shes using it to cover an escape from inside your range, she can't possible get good enough spacing to avoid utilt if you have the dash-PS down on her.

It sounds like I'm smoking crack but it can happen, broski.

Pretty much the method that was repeated multiple times, at the tip of it.

Bad spacing is using it point blank right next to DDD where he can Utilt ZSS.

As for bashing Riddle and others, I quote Coney.

are you serious? literally 3/4 of your posts are bashing zero suit, and we're supposed to be taking you seriously when you cry wolf now? when an extremely rare euro character beats a good player's secondary in a purportedly bad matchup, you blow the whistle and tell everyone else they're doing it wrong?

don't condescend to me, you clown.

Your pretty condescending about your opinion Theo, I agree with him on that.

 

[Praxis]

i think peach is under rated personally. i mean im not saying that her matchups are right or wrong as im no peach main, but you watch players like kyon beat ally and riddle (albeit a long time ago anymore), you watch illmatic in general, etc and all you see is them doing great. i mean ya they don't win the major tournies but they still perform very well.

 

[fkacyan]

are you serious? literally 3/4 of your posts are bashing zero suit, and we're supposed to be taking you seriously when you cry wolf now? when an extremely rare euro character beats a good player's secondary in a purportedly bad matchup, you blow the whistle and tell everyone else they're doing it wrong?

don't condescend to me, you clown.

I've been telling everybody they've been doing it wrong for...

What, almost two years?

Chill broski, you're misinterpreting what I said entirely.

Also, ZSS is a pretty bad character. I love playing her, but she's a pretty bad character. I consider it miraculous that NR has done as well as he has

Spoiler

and partially a product of LCDs at MLG

.

I'm also not above calling myself out when I'm wrong. See:

Your pretty condescending about your opinion Theo, I agree with him on that.

I'm condescending about pretty much everything. It's one of my charms!

 

[da K.I.D.]

i mean, if you are miss cleo and you can see into the future and know the moment she takes to the air what shes going to do, then i guess it wouldnt be so far fetched to assume that ddd could run in and PS grab a Zss side b.

 

[fkacyan]

i mean, if you are miss cleo and you can see into the future and know the moment she takes to the air what shes going to do, then i guess it wouldnt be so far fetched to assume that ddd could run in and PS grab a Zss side b.

Her shorthop is so high that by her movement after the peak it's generally fairly obvious what she's going to do with it. I say 'generally' because you can use a "worse" option to mix up, I guess.

 

[da K.I.D.]

sonic basically thrives on 'non-optimal mix-ups.'

cant see why she couldnt do the same.

 

[fkacyan]

sonic basically thrives on 'non-optimal mix-ups.'

cant see why she couldnt do the same.

Sonic also loses most of his matchups.

This comparison is great, keep going.

 

[Smoom77]

Yoshi beats ICies because of how insanely mobile and safe he is. Yoshi has the best air speed and a great ground speed to keep away from them but most importantly, is his egg lay. Yoshi's egg lay can be wavebounced and DJC'd making it unpredictable due to the many different angles and ways it works from, and is a fast, unblockable grab that can be used in the air and cant be punished easily if at all by ICies. One egglay on Popo is free damage on Nana and separates them, and if you egg lay Nana, she doesn't mash out and can stay in for 100+ frames. Yoshi also has his egg toss as a projectile, which is really nice to play safe away from ICies, and the projectile hits twice (the egg and then the pop of it are two different hitboxes) making ICies already difficult time Power shielding and approaching an even more tedious task. The other thing yoshi has, is if yoshi can single out 1 Climber, he has grab release usmash which will kill Nana around 110-120 because she doesnt DI.


Yoshi is also weird to chaingrab for ICies, but thats not a major factor.
I don't know what you're talking about here.

ICs that play Polt play dumb. They get hit by Egg Lay WAY too many times than they should.

I'm not bragging, but I double 2-stocked (2-1 for me) Polt last weekend. I didn't see the problem with the matchup.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I've been telling everybody they've been doing it wrong for...

What, almost two years?

Chill broski, you're misinterpreting what I said entirely.

Also, ZSS is a pretty bad character. I love playing her, but she's a pretty bad character. I consider it miraculous that NR has done as well as he has

Spoiler

and partially a product of LCDs at MLG

.

I'm also not above calling myself out when I'm wrong. See:

I'm condescending about pretty much everything. It's one of my charms!

You're an idiot if you think Zss is bad lmao. Who are you?

 

[Alphicans]

He's not an idiot... ZSS is not that great.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Good is subjective.