Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[Alphicans]

True. But when looking at the tier list, ZSS is a pretty average character. Barely a tournament threat.

 

[da K.I.D.]

looking at the tier list, zss is in what i would call high tier, thus she is above average. which leads me to the conclusion that 'zss is not good' is an incorrect statement.

 

[Alphicans]

Lol yeah ok you're right that high tier is technically above average. However when compared to most top tier characters her results are below average. Most characters under high tier don't even count. loool

 

[Coney]

great post

i lol'd @ DAT JUICE

i mean, i agree with you that zero suit is pretty mediocre and maybe a tad overrated right now, but i'd hesitate to call her bad. i think she's right where she needs to be quite honestly, sitting comfortably on the fence between mid and top tier, with only results pushing her (and TL, i think) to one side or the other

and to be clear, i'm not directly challenging any of your points--well, except for utilt'ing sideb. i'm aware you CAN grab sideb if you predict it, and you CAN do all types of evil stuff to her, but the fact that you have to be so reactionary and make these fairly difficult punishes is what makes it tough

like i said, though, i could be wrong. orion's not stupid.

 

[fkacyan]

looking at the tier list, zss is in what i would call high tier, thus she is above average. which leads me to the conclusion that 'zss is not good' is an incorrect statement.

A few of her matchups are innaccurate, and most of her good matchups are against characters that don't matter, i.e. aren't threats.

Nick Riddle only does well with ZSS because he is a genius. If he played a better character he would probably take top three at nationals quite often.

@Coney: Maybe I'm spoiled by Orions' ungodly reactions. I actually can't mix him up with any move that has a longer startup animation than about 7 or 8 frames.

But trust me, he can land that uptilt, it's pretty ****in terrifying.

the punishes are only difficult because you haven't learned ZSS yet, really. Play ZSS in some serious friendlies and you'll quickly realize the limitations on a lot of her moves

 

[Coney]

that's just the thing though, i practice with a crewmate constantly. a really good friend of mine plays ZSS and is a big reason why i did so well against nick

i mean, you could be right and maybe i don't understand zss as well as i think i do. we only played that one single set, so maybe it was more of a "holy **** THIS is the top of this character" shock more than anything. i've picked up zss recently and i've found that her moves are quite a bit bulkier and stiffer than i'd imagined just by watching and playing against her, so i'm catching small bits of what you're saying

willing to bend here, obviously, but i think as it stands right now, until people fully understand zss as well as you claim to, it really doesn't matter. perception is reality and as of right now, zss is perceived as pretty damn good.

well, kind of

 

[fkacyan]

that's just the thing though, i practice with a crewmate constantly. a really good friend of mine plays ZSS and is a big reason why i did so well against nick

i mean, you could be right and maybe i don't understand zss as well as i think i do. we only played that one single set, so maybe it was more of a "holy **** THIS is the top of this character" shock more than anything. i've picked up zss recently and i've found that her moves are quite a bit bulkier and stiffer than i'd imagined just by watching and playing against her, so i'm catching small bits of what you're saying

willing to bend here, obviously, but i think as it stands right now, until people fully understand zss as well as you claim to, it really doesn't matter. perception is reality and as of right now, zss is perceived as pretty damn good.

well, kind of

I wish I had time to really dissect the character, but I work 40 hours and go to school for 11 atm on top of my familial responsibilities so Smash is like the bottom of the totem pole.

Honestly a lot of my perception comes from playin v orion, even when I would play people better than him I would land stuff and take stocks that he never lets he do

dat 6 frame reaction time

 

[Matador]

Is it possible that Orion just reads you extremely well? Lol

 

[fkacyan]

Is it possible that Orion just reads you extremely well? Lol

I'm not so stupid as to base this conclusion just on myself.

he does this to everybody he plays, last time he played snakeee was rough to say the least, lol

His main problem is that he uses his reaction time to compensate for his lack of matchup experience and as a result when he plays people who know their character really well he doesn't have as much experience because he just reacts instead of learning

It took him forever to learn ZSS but it's burned into his skull at this point.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Probably, actually!

A lot of people think they are "reacting" to things they are just predicting because within a few frames your brain can't tell the difference, especially if you are conditioned to expect it. =)

Also Thio, I'm almost positive Snakeee took Orion to last hit last time they played. =P

 

[fkacyan]

Probably, actually!

A lot of people think they are "reacting" to things they are just predicting because within a few frames your brain can't tell the difference, especially if you are conditioned to expect it. =)

Also Thio, I'm almost positive Snakeee took Orion to last hit last time they played. =P

You just defined reactions. Reactions are essentially quick predictions conditioned by instinct and prior experience, lol.

M1 was close, m2 was almost a 3stock.

 

[Browny]

dat 6 frame reaction time

^ when an exaggeration crosses the line to become a complete lie.

Sfp is right about reactions. You cant call a reaction the same as a prediction rofl, the two can be completely separate.

 

[fkacyan]

^ when an exaggeration crosses the line to become a complete lie.

Sfp is right about reactions. You cant call a reaction the same as a prediction rofl, the two can be completely separate.

Average human reaction time is about 1.8ms, or about 9-11 frames. That somebody with better reactions would be able to react at about 6-8 frames is 100% supported by the idea of the Bell curve.

EDIT: Here's an active scientific experiment with the average at 215 (13 frames) ms and with actual curve data:

http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/stats.php

6 is lucky, but 7-8 is realistic and 8 is easily doable for somebody on the strong side of the curve.

 

[Flayl]

That is an average for an experiment where you are only expecting 1 event and only using 1 button

 

[Orion*]

Is it possible that Orion just reads you extremely well? Lol

-dead- @ people actually thinking I read.

Most of the **** I do is set ups or reaction based =.=

Like I pretty much at this point have only been working on my reading because in the end I just get out baited by top players and it turns into inconsistent wins. But for the most part especially my prior success is mostly just do to having good and fast reactions most of the time. I'm always working to better myself but I'm not going to lie rofl.

As for ZSS

idk like. yeah she can bait and do mix ups, ramin was doing some cool pivot grabs and **** later after the match and getting them. But most of it outside of that still loses or just goes neutral to shield rofl, and if I read the grab I get an fsmash or dash attack like really lol.

I do think she combos the HELLL out of DDD like its absolutely atrocious if he gets grabbed or dsmashed. But after that its really not that bad and most of the time d3 will live to like 150-200 percent if he doesnt get gimped.

and she dies early to utilt. Or even a b/fair near the ledge rofl.

 

[t3h Icy]

Ganon should be -2 vs Sheik because his Dair does a lot of damage.

 

[Matador]

-dead- @ people actually thinking I read.

Most of the **** I do is set ups or reaction based =.=

.

Lol, just a guess. Thiocyanide was talking like your reaction time >> any kind of mix-ups which contradicts the majority of my playstyle.

It's easy to mistake fast reaction time for simply being easily read and predictable.

 

[fkacyan]

Lol, just a guess. Thiocyanide was talking like your reaction time >> any kind of mix-ups which contradicts the majority of my playstyle.

It's easy to mistake fast reaction time for simply being easily read and predictable.

OK

What you need to understand

Is that you will pull out something that nobody on earth has ever done before

and he will react to it

It's really frustrating, lol

 

[Matador]

Lol, fair enough.

I've never played Orion, so yeah. *shrugs*

 

[Orion*]

Thats how I feel playing anti sometimes >.>

 

[Marc]

Yeah, Orion's reaction speed is unfair. I think we should do separate tournaments for people like him and old slow people like me.

 

[Brawlin]

someone once said kirby's stone can be broken out of by an attack that does, like, 40% i think?

is there any single attack in the game that does that much? excluding items and stuff, you jerks, don't get cute with me

Stitchface turnip.

 

[Spelt]

"excluding items"


and stitchface does like %30-something

 

[Brawlin]

Yea i know its excluding items, but its not like its a banned item tho.

It does 40 percent if u throw it at close range. And I thought the stone broke at 30%.

 

[Orion*]

Yeah, Orion's reaction speed is unfair. I think we should do separate tournaments for people like him and old slow people like me.

Youre like my new cyanide!

except youre actually good at melee

 

[DMG]

Good at Melee

Slow in Brawl

??????????????

 

[Orion*]

Btw, I think d3 vs ZSS is probably even or +1 d3, I don't think it's a hard counter LOL. The cg and uairs punishes essentially make it impossible for it to be THAT bad because of how much damage D3 will take.

I think mk is a hard counter though, that **** is free. Same w/ snake and falco xD

edit: @ dmg

He's not slow its just like. He doesnt really have an autopilot or enough mu exp yet ^_^

 

[fkacyan]

Btw, I think d3 vs ZSS is probably even or +1 d3, I don't think it's a hard counter LOL. The cg and uairs punishes essentially make it impossible for it to be THAT bad because of how much damage D3 will take.

I think mk is a hard counter though, that **** is free. Same w/ snake and falco xD

edit: @ dmg

He's not slow its just like. He doesnt really have an autopilot or enough mu exp yet ^_^

I don't see how taking % matters when she can't land the kill and Brawl kids dont camp.

 

[da K.I.D.]

lol @ brawl kids dont camp.

we camp so hard that we have to do ultra gay ledge/air planking in order for it to even be considered camping. because the normal camping that everyone does is just part of the essentials for brawl and not even considered camping anymore.

p.s. i just stopped at burger king, and the fries they gave me werent salty enough, so I came to this thread expecting to get some from my man thio.

i must say, i was not disappointed.

 

[Malcolm.O]

lol @ brawl kids dont camp.

we camp so hard that we have to do ultra gay ledge/air planking in order for it to even be considered camping. because the normal camping that everyone does is just part of the essentials for brawl and not even considered camping anymore.

p.s. i just stopped at burger king, and the fries they gave me werent salty enough, so I came to this thread expecting to get some from my man thio.

i must say, i was not disappointed.

To much salt, ain't good for you bro.

 

[ShadowLink84]

You just defined reactions. Reactions are essentially quick predictions conditioned by instinct and prior experience, lol.

M1 was close, m2 was almost a 3stock.

Incorrect.
Reaction as a result of a stimulus and then the response.
Prediction is the response being done before the stimulus.

i.e. I Dtilt with MK which is 3 frames, you powershield it. You didn't react, you predicted me

Average human reaction time is about 1.8ms, or about 9-11 frames. That somebody with better reactions would be able to react at about 6-8 frames is 100% supported by the idea of the Bell curve.

EDIT: Here's an active scientific experiment with the average at 215 (13 frames) ms and with actual curve data:

http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/stats.php

6 is lucky, but 7-8 is realistic and 8 is easily doable for somebody on the strong side of the curve.

This is only half correct.
You are only providing a response to ONE stimulus.
In the case of brawl, you are reacting to over 16 different moves with varying speeds and ranges.

The reaction time is actually lower in the event you are confronted with many more different things to respond to which makes it higher by a notable amount.

That is an average for an experiment where you are only expecting 1 event and only using 1 button

THIS MAN I LOVE YOU!

 

[Albert.]

lol @ brawl kids dont camp.

we camp so hard that we have to do ultra gay ledge/air planking in order for it to even be considered camping. because the normal camping that everyone does is just part of the essentials for brawl and not even considered camping anymore.

Sigging.

For truth and justice.

 

[Orion*]

In the case of brawl, you are reacting to over 16 different moves with varying speeds and ranges

Except when you are in said ranges, from experience you know some things are viable or not, therefore you generally can rule out said options outside of some extremely rare and situational mixups that rely on doing the previous ones to condition your opponent.

Also, powershield timing is super lenient lol

 

[fkacyan]

This is only half correct.
You are only providing a response to ONE stimulus.
In the case of brawl, you are reacting to over 16 different moves with varying speeds and ranges.

The reaction time is actually lower in the event you are confronted with many more different things to respond to which makes it higher by a notable amount.

Normally yes

But this is Orion and not some normal human.

idk how to explain it man guy dude other than orion makes it happen.

p.s. i just stopped at burger king, and the fries they gave me werent salty enough, so I came to this thread expecting to get some from my man thio.

i must say, i was not disappointed.

Controlling shares of Mortons stock goes a long way, man. Also, no Brawl kids dont camp. Some turtle but most of you lack the patience to really pitch a tent.

 

[Albert.]

Also, no Brawl kids dont camp. Some turtle but most of you lack the patience to really pitch a tent.

^^^^ uhm I can say with 100% certainty that that is just not true. I've seen people hard camp in brawl at all levels of play. Just my own experiences and existence disprove that statement.

And btw, I think some better punctuation might help you out. I'm interpreting your sentence as:
"Also, no, brawl kids don't camp."

Otherwise it's kind of double-negative-ish.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Even if Orion does just wait and react to everything you do (which sorry I sorta call BS on, get a ZSS player on his level to play him and see what happens, the problem is there's really only one ), that doesn't really make ZSS bad for most purposes, I mean, how many people do you play with superhuman reaction speeds? Dark.pch has really good reaction speeds (better than average) and I used to frequently land jab froll fully charged paralyzer because I read that he would drop his shield early LOL, it just isn't as simple as that.

Listening to you talk about the game gives me the impression that you play super-aggressively and let Orion stand there and wait for you, which is terrible anyway.

ZSS isn't a top character because she has no grab to easily thwart shield abuse and because forcing her to use her second jump off-stage usually means she dies, but she iis not a bad character because your friend with super duper bell curve reaction speeds shieldgrabs your bad side-b spacing. Just stop.

 

[fkacyan]

^^^^ uhm I can say with 100% certainty that that is just not true. I've seen people hard camp in brawl at all levels of play. Just my own experiences and existence disprove that statement.

And btw, I think some better punctuation might help you out. I'm interpreting your sentence as:
"Also, no, brawl kids don't camp."

Otherwise it's kind of double-negative-ish.

No, Brawl kids don't camp, you turtle for maybe 30s - 1min, some people have more patience but most have a lot less, and most of you guys don't even know how to camp in a way that doesnt allow approach.

When I say camp I mean a guy who can't win pitching a tent around a pillar and humping it for 45 minutes until you both lose rating, that's what camping is, not some sissy percent lead **** for a very small amount of time at the end of a match.

ZSS isn't a top character because she has no grab to easily thwart shield abuse and because forcing her to use her second jump off-stage usually means she dies, but she iis not a bad character because your friend with super duper bell curve reaction speeds shieldgrabs your bad side-b spacing. Just stop.

Oh you.

 

[Orion*]

Only spam can camp like a true god lol
Everyone else gets greedy xD

I love how after I beat Mr.R this **** about getting someone on my level though LOL, atm he's better than me as far as our record is concerned.

I'm down a set 2-3

If that's not somebody on my level then I really don't know what is

edit:

Thio you dont really need to overhype me though I'm not some god wtf- I have a long way to go xD

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

True. But when looking at the tier list, ZSS is a pretty average character. Barely a tournament threat.

Yes but it still is perception.

A person could say everyone but Metaknight is terrible because they are not the best character and he is.

Then you get people who will go even into low tier characters and say they aren't bad.

Up to the person really.

 

[fkacyan]

Yes but it still is perception.

A person could say everyone but Metaknight is terrible because they are not the best character and he is.

Then you get people who will go even into low tier characters and say they aren't bad.

Up to the person really.

ZSS's tier position is pretty heavily inflated as a result of tourney placings of one person.

NR is amazing and uses an average-to-low-tier character, that's what it comes down to.

@orion: I'm only hyping you in one MU broseph. :3