That sounds about right, actually. Getting low % kills rare, really rare, if you're playing against someone good. A reliable way for the flipspike would be to dsmash them at the edge, and if they're level to you, hit them out of stun. Of course, if they're below you and below the edge, go for a bair stage spike.
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Official "Ask Snakeee Stuff... about Stuff" Thread
- Thread starter Snakeee
- Start date
Snakey
Smash Cadet
Snake-ee? Neat! Mine is so similar 
I've been playing ZSS for a while and was wondering, are you as strangely obsessed with the suit parts as I am? Do you feel that necessity to keep the starting projectiles around as long as possible?
-Snakey
I've been playing ZSS for a while and was wondering, are you as strangely obsessed with the suit parts as I am? Do you feel that necessity to keep the starting projectiles around as long as possible?
-Snakey
oze6000, I'm going to agree with sasook and say that low % kills aren't really all that common. Once you get opponents to 130-ish, though, they should be dying pretty fast.
If you're having trouble edge guarding/edge hogging, the only way you can really get better is through practice.
A few things to keep in mind when attempting to give an opponent off the edge a hard time:
Killing an opponent is RARELY worth you losing your own stock (the exception is of course when you have a stock advantage, you are at very high, and they are low on %, all 3 should be true).
Going for straight forward edge guarding techniques is a good start, until your opponent reacts to it properly. Straight forward edge guarding techniques would be something like jumping out and doing a b-air or f-air off the stage.
Keep as many recovery options open to you as possible. It's very easy for your own inexperience to gimp yourself when going for "tricky" edge guards. Basically, don't throw out your down+B liberally going for the spike. Same goes with ledge hopping when an opponent is capable of grabbing the ledge and reversing the situation on you.
For the most part, after you establish that you WILL go off the stage to make it hard for people to recover, it becomes a mindgame. Try and make them predict your actions wrong by using visual cues that make them expect you to do something differently (line up horizontally with them for a b-air, but delay it until after they air dodge, or air dodge the attack you think they will try to use).
When you approach them while they're offstage, do they air dodge as soon as you get in range to attack? Do they attack you? Do they have a counter that they try to use? Look at the what their options are and consider whether it is truly worth attempting to edge guard. Ganon is a particularly dangerous character to edge guard or get high vertical kills on while he's in the magnifying glass, as he has his down+B which has enough KB to hit you off the top, and his side+B (for when you're not sure how far away he is from you at the side of the stage) is a great self-destruct kill for when he's at high % and you are not (for both resetting a match and maintaining a stock lead, if he has one). Most characters aren't quite as threatening with their anti-edge guard arsenal, but I was just giving some examples where I had to modify my own edge game to continue to gimp them (air dodge his side+B, and just not go for vertical kills up high against Ganon).
Some tools you have in your arsenal are the up+B boost jump (or whatever you guys call it, where you jump higher while using up+B during the jump ascension), b-air, f-air, side+B, the b-air stage spike, the d-smash to b-air stage spike and/or flipspike situations. ZSS has a lot of tools to use, more so than most other characters.
The edge hogging is really just all from practice. You can drop from the ledge and down+B back into a ledge grab, or you can drop off and wait and then side/up+B to grab the ledge from afar to deny someone else from grabbing on. This takes a lot of practice and knowing the recovery moves/timing of different characters. Particularly tricky opponents can really screw you up if you get greedy in edge hogging/guarding, and inexperience will also be a large factor.
I don't feel like I've put enough emphasis on it, but critically thinking about the risk and reward of edge guarding is important. Sometimes the risk is just too great. If you are too greedy, you will get punished. It's happened to everyone. When you get greedy and are punished for it, reflect on what you did, and think of whether it was a bad decision on your part or inexperience, and think about how you can learn from it.
If you're having trouble edge guarding/edge hogging, the only way you can really get better is through practice.
A few things to keep in mind when attempting to give an opponent off the edge a hard time:
Killing an opponent is RARELY worth you losing your own stock (the exception is of course when you have a stock advantage, you are at very high, and they are low on %, all 3 should be true).
Going for straight forward edge guarding techniques is a good start, until your opponent reacts to it properly. Straight forward edge guarding techniques would be something like jumping out and doing a b-air or f-air off the stage.
Keep as many recovery options open to you as possible. It's very easy for your own inexperience to gimp yourself when going for "tricky" edge guards. Basically, don't throw out your down+B liberally going for the spike. Same goes with ledge hopping when an opponent is capable of grabbing the ledge and reversing the situation on you.
For the most part, after you establish that you WILL go off the stage to make it hard for people to recover, it becomes a mindgame. Try and make them predict your actions wrong by using visual cues that make them expect you to do something differently (line up horizontally with them for a b-air, but delay it until after they air dodge, or air dodge the attack you think they will try to use).
When you approach them while they're offstage, do they air dodge as soon as you get in range to attack? Do they attack you? Do they have a counter that they try to use? Look at the what their options are and consider whether it is truly worth attempting to edge guard. Ganon is a particularly dangerous character to edge guard or get high vertical kills on while he's in the magnifying glass, as he has his down+B which has enough KB to hit you off the top, and his side+B (for when you're not sure how far away he is from you at the side of the stage) is a great self-destruct kill for when he's at high % and you are not (for both resetting a match and maintaining a stock lead, if he has one). Most characters aren't quite as threatening with their anti-edge guard arsenal, but I was just giving some examples where I had to modify my own edge game to continue to gimp them (air dodge his side+B, and just not go for vertical kills up high against Ganon).
Some tools you have in your arsenal are the up+B boost jump (or whatever you guys call it, where you jump higher while using up+B during the jump ascension), b-air, f-air, side+B, the b-air stage spike, the d-smash to b-air stage spike and/or flipspike situations. ZSS has a lot of tools to use, more so than most other characters.
The edge hogging is really just all from practice. You can drop from the ledge and down+B back into a ledge grab, or you can drop off and wait and then side/up+B to grab the ledge from afar to deny someone else from grabbing on. This takes a lot of practice and knowing the recovery moves/timing of different characters. Particularly tricky opponents can really screw you up if you get greedy in edge hogging/guarding, and inexperience will also be a large factor.
I don't feel like I've put enough emphasis on it, but critically thinking about the risk and reward of edge guarding is important. Sometimes the risk is just too great. If you are too greedy, you will get punished. It's happened to everyone. When you get greedy and are punished for it, reflect on what you did, and think of whether it was a bad decision on your part or inexperience, and think about how you can learn from it.
kuenzel
Smash Ace
I'm pretty sure Every ZSS-Mainer loves the suit pieces in the same orgasmic way. Other people just don't know what to do with them.
What's this? Items? I Never Play with items! Is this legal? Where's A referee?
Ya, I love that kind of raw fear from a person who's never played a good ZSS.
Its been said that the entire first stock is dependent on the usage (or lack there of) of Suit Pieces. Throw them in the air- keep them as long as you can, cause chances are your opponent will probably just want to throw them away so they stop screwing up his game.
*Maniacal laugh
Yeah most everyone loves the items. =P I'm guessing you already know the tricks like throwing one mid-roll and juggling. I love getting at the edge while they're recovering and throwing it down, most of the time it knocks them back off when they try to recover. Also is an excellent mind game tool, they act as if you are always going to throw it, so depending on their reaction you can pull off a B move. Items really do decide the first stock. They can give you the momentum to win a match if used correctly.Snake-ee? Neat! Mine is so similar
I've been playing ZSS for a while and was wondering, are you as strangely obsessed with the suit parts as I am? Do you feel that necessity to keep the starting projectiles around as long as possible?
-Snakey
TheRockSays
Smash Journeyman
Snakeee do you play with tap jump off?
DaiAndOh
Smash Ace
Snakeee
Smash Master
I just had to wipe my computer clean and I'm trying to reinstall the drivers to get online again. Hopefully I'll be back on and able to answer questions in the next few days. Sorry guys
Sunstar
Smash Apprentice
I disabled tap jump just around christmas... first it was hard to play without... sometimes i tried to edgeguard my enemy and just fall down xD
But after you have the right feeling i think playing without tap jump is much better and you can control your character more accurately.
Especially the short hops are easier... the up-tilt and the up special are much more effective.
to get the up-special-boost while jumping is a bit harder...
but with a little training you can and will say, that the gameplay without tap jump feels much better
But after you have the right feeling i think playing without tap jump is much better and you can control your character more accurately.
Especially the short hops are easier... the up-tilt and the up special are much more effective.
to get the up-special-boost while jumping is a bit harder...
but with a little training you can and will say, that the gameplay without tap jump feels much better
During the first day Brawl came out, I disabled tap jump specifically for ZSS. For most other characters I have it enabled because shield canceling is useful and way too hard to do for B moves without tap enabled. ZSS's jump boost up+B is actually pretty easy to do without tap jump, and I can't really see very many situations where you'd shield cancel into an up+B with her, so tap jumping isn't that important. Shield canceling into up-smash won't be used that often, but it's pretty easy to do, just hold up and press jump+A at the same time with your thumb.
Snakeee
Smash Master
Well I can go online again 
I actually throw off 2 of them at the start 95% of the time now. You can't maintain control of the pieces well at all if you keep all three. I do try to keep that one piece in play for as long as possible thoughSnake-ee? Neat! Mine is so similar
I've been playing ZSS for a while and was wondering, are you as strangely obsessed with the suit parts as I am? Do you feel that necessity to keep the starting projectiles around as long as possible?
-Snakey
Nefarious B
Smash Champion
That's what I generally do as well. Do you glide toss the suit pieces a lot and if so what do you use out of the glide toss?
jibbyjaont
Smash Journeyman
I at least like to keep two of them. I usually throw one like normal then glide toss towards the opponent with another.
EmuKiller
Smash Ace
I try tricking my opponents by switching up the glide tossing.
Snakeee
Smash Master
I do a lot of different things to mix things up. Also, the backwards glide toss is a good spacing tool.
Oh and yes I play with tap jump off, otherwise I seem to use both of ZSS' jumps with I try to boost with Up B lol
i cant seem to stage spike. and lately my freaking timing of the spike (filp jump)has been off.
i cant figure out the back glide toss. i think ZSS doesnt have one(i mean like diddys) but i can glidetoss forward and toss it back. MindGames.
jibbyjaont
Smash Journeyman
How long have you kept an amrmor piece in one match? For me, I've kept it for 2 stocks before.
Sunstar
Smash Apprentice
me and my frieds sometimes - or even often play "without armor pieces"
so i pick the pieces up and throw them away
then we pause the game... say "ready? 3, 2, 1 - go" and the game starts
is something like that common in code of honor play?
do you even have a code of honor with some other players out of tournaments (like no chaingrabs etc.)?
so i pick the pieces up and throw them away
then we pause the game... say "ready? 3, 2, 1 - go" and the game starts
is something like that common in code of honor play?
do you even have a code of honor with some other players out of tournaments (like no chaingrabs etc.)?
DeliciousCake
Smash Lord
If they can't handle my suit pieces they deserve to die to them. I'm given them, and I will use them accordingly.
Schneeeulen
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2009
- Messages
- 13
I've been reading a lot how ZSS is good with platforms and horizontal stages, but I'm so bad at maneuvering around platforms because I've only trained with her on FD. Are there specific stages anyone would recommend for platform training?
Snakeee
Smash Master
Battlefield is the most standard
Schneeeulen
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2009
- Messages
- 13
Ok, thank you very much!
godslafco
Smash Cadet
What are the top two underused ZSS moves that would actually help in a match? And why do you think they are underused?
Snakeee
Smash Master
Her grab and her f-tilt.
I mostly only pivot grab now, because that seems to work a really good amount of the time if my opponent is approaching me and it's so unexpected. Most opponents don't spot dodge much against ZSS because they don't expect her to grab, and she has good moves that would also punish spot dodges.
People don't use it because her grab is so terribly laggy, and also misses the opponent for ******** reasons. When you're going for a pivot grab, however, the opponent usually won't be able to react fast enough to punish you too severely.
The f-tilt is a good spacing tool for when the opponent is just outside of the range for her jab, plus it usually won't be able to be shield grabbed. I always do the downward one, so that it might trip them. I follow the trip up with d-tilt unless they get sent too far in which case I would dash attack. People don't use this one because.....well I guess it just doesn't look too flashy, and ZSS is a flashy character lol.
jibbyjaont
Smash Journeyman
What are your opinions on F-Smash? You think it is a "must never use" trick?
canthandletheSpeculosity
Smash Journeyman
It won me the set with Candy when I used it on accident by trying to SH fair real quick.
Snakeee
Smash Master
Spec did Candy try going Wolf on you? Because he did better against me when he tried him.
That's amazing that you beat him btw, I'm really surprised
That's amazing that you beat him btw, I'm really surprised
canthandletheSpeculosity
Smash Journeyman
Nah he went snake both matches. He's too good. There was one part where I was just standing there blocking/sidestepping his jab/ftilt/grabs for like 10 seconds.
we started on smashville and when I won that one he cp'd there again, I was getting him in the beginning then he started catching up on that last stock. we were both equal on the last stock and I somehow got a dsmash and knocked him to the right and and he landed on the floating platform offstage. I believe I mindgamed him into thinking i was gonna land on the platform but decended using a quick laser and stuned him. then I won the second win with some combo that led to a fsmash then everyone went "OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH!!!" Tournaments are fun. I really wish I could go to cot4.
He uses wolf? I think I woulda done better against his wolf anyway. He probably knew that I mm'd K9 and won idk. But Wolf isnt hard, like if you keep him in side b range he cant do much, his bair cant hit you and all that. I kinda play like Wario when im in the air dodging projectiles. Up-close what I did was just the usual jab combos like ftilt, dtilt and all that. Since it was more of a spacies game we were both in the air doing random attacks trying to get that one inch in to hit with our attacks. but side b is better than wolf's bair spacing. And you already know that you can mindgame them into airdodging somehow then dsmash chain them. How long can wolf be chained for again?
Snakeee
Smash Master
Good stuff, but you're wrong about that part with Wolf. It's not a good idea to use side B while he's on the ground. He can just f-smash you before it comes out. She can deal with his b-airs decently though because you can often get him with your own aerials out of shield. Well, he did better with Wolf than Snake against me, I'm not saying it's a harder match up. I'd much rather go Sheik against Wolves though
DeliciousCake
Smash Lord
Wolf can only be chained up to 40-60% IIRC. And I'm just ballparking that figure too.
Snakeee
Smash Master
I actually meant to point that out before anyone said something like "but you can chain d-smash him!". It really only works at 0% unless it's really degenerated, plus it's not a very good move to be using against Wolf because he has moves that can hit you from that range before it comes out (mainly f-smash)
Chain d-smashing is actually a lot less useful in general than people think, even against Fox. When I play my brother's Fox it's almost impossible to pull one off, and he can go almost even with me in that match up because he approaches in a way that completely avoids d-smashes.
Chain d-smashing is actually a lot less useful in general than people think, even against Fox. When I play my brother's Fox it's almost impossible to pull one off, and he can go almost even with me in that match up because he approaches in a way that completely avoids d-smashes.
canthandletheSpeculosity
Smash Journeyman
Yea it's extremely hard to hit fox with dsmash. same with falco since they camp. But I was able to get his wolf with it with airdodge mindgames since I dont think they have a good aerial counter (like luigi doing nair when knocked upwards) when knocked up at the start of a stock on yoshis. The whole side b spacing worked at times when he was constantly SHing or FHing but I was using it in a way so that if he tried anything like fsmash I would be ready to to run or counter. I think that's why he was afraid to approach me. I was basically moving around like Wario with a plasma whip and a stun laser. Airdodging his lasers while constantly FFing and mixing in ground game.
Maybe I just need to fight more wolfs then to make sure if this is a good general strategy or if it was just the guy that I played.
Maybe I just need to fight more wolfs then to make sure if this is a good general strategy or if it was just the guy that I played.
Nefarious B
Smash Champion
What is the dsmash chain?
DeliciousCake
Smash Lord
Yeah, the chain is very well known now and people will adjust accordingly for the matchup.
Snakeee
Smash Master
Well he can actually hit you with the f-smash as your Side B is coming out.
And yeah that is about the only time I'll hit a wolf with d-smash is while they are landing and they don't expect it like you did.
And yeah that is about the only time I'll hit a wolf with d-smash is while they are landing and they don't expect it like you did.
jibbyjaont
Smash Journeyman
It's when you d-smash someone (usually a space animal) and then wait for them to break free of the stun. When they break free they usually land in front of you and close enough for another d-smash. Then you repeat the steps. Look it up on youtube, I'm pretty sure you'll find it there.
DaiAndOh
Smash Ace
Hey Snakeee, what do you usually do with the suit parts in teams? Would you treat it differently if not teaming with Shadow?
Also are you going to Gametable on the 21st?
Also are you going to Gametable on the 21st?
Snakeee
Smash Master
I went over this a bit already, but it really depends on how you end up spawning. The first thing I usually do is get ready to shield because good opponents usually try to hit me with their fastes move if they spawn next to me. After I get them away I usually throw off all but one piece if I can.
If my teammate is near me at the start, I let them grab one and try to throw away the third if there's time. A good strategy is to have one of you throw over the other's head.
I like to have experience with my teammate for this, so if I don't really have that then I will make keeping the pieces away from the enemy my priority.
zerosuitandfalco
Smash Rookie
As a *cough* not good player *cough* what do you suggest I do most frequently to get better with zss?