Official Ask Anyone Frame Things Thread

[TheCrimsonBlur]

In Puff and Kirby's case jump and immediately f-air because their air jumps have reduced mobility.

Can you elaborate on this? I thought we had determined doing aerials out of hitstun doesn't help (that Fox uair post)?

 

[The Star King]

^Doing aerials as you jump does indeed not help for most of the cast, but Kirby and Jigglypuff are exceptions. Their jumps slow your mobility near their peaks, but this is canceled if you do an aerial.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

^Doing aerials as you jump does indeed not help for most of the cast, but Kirby and Jigglypuff are exceptions. Their jumps slow your mobility near their peaks, but this is canceled if you do an aerial.

Ah, I probably just discarded this knowledge because I don't play those characters lol

thanks

 

[Mahone]

ya its like their jumps have momentum decay or some **** that u can negate by doing an aerial, i always wondered why i intuitively did fairs and bairs sometimes to keep a certain spacing even though i wasn't hitting anything...

but i don't know 100% how to define it and EXACTLY what it does and how it works, so i wouldnt mind a full explanation either

 

[Tero.]

So could you cover more distance as Puff if you Jump Bair Rising Pound? Or does the side b itself allready cause this effect?

 

[Isis?]

I'd personally like to know how many frames I have to chaingrab sheik, in sheik dittos, when my opponent is at 0 percent and they DI away. Assuming that I boost grab. (Or jc/dash grab if possible)

 

[3chairz]

Hey Strong Bad, I was wondering:

If fox does a perfect shine -> usmash on sheik's shield, can sheik nair oos and hit fox after the shine? What about other characters with nair oos like peach? Keep in mind fox's head is invincible during the usmash.

Thanks a lot!

 

[Bones0]

w ut...

 

[Strong Badam]

what am i looking at, bones? the boomerang hit, or the edited out pause?

 

[Bones0]

Oh, it was a pause? I thought the camera went back to normal as soon as you unpaused, but I can clearly stop the video on a frame where there is no pause screen, but the camera is angled super far.

 

[Strong Badam]

it transitions from paused to unpause. yeah they just edited out most of it.

 

[Kyu Puff]

I read somewhere that if two moves hit someone within a certain window, the knockbacks combine.

Do synched ice climber moves work like this? If so, how would I calculate the hitstun (is it twice as much)?

From what I've observed, it seems like the power boost ICs get from Nana is a result of the extra damage, and not combined knockback, but I just wanna make sure.

 

[ajp_anton]

Formula whenever a move with knockback hits:

If ((amount of time since previous hit that had knockback) < threshold)
{
[COLOR="Blue"]  all earlier hits and momentums are completely ignored, use current move's knockback[/COLOR]
}
else
{ 
[COLOR="Blue"]  If (direction of momentum is opposite of current move)
  {
[COLOR="DarkGreen"]    subtract them from each other so they partly cancel each other[/COLOR]
  }
  else
  {
[COLOR="DarkGreen"]    choose the bigger one and ignore the other[/COLOR]
  }[/COLOR]
}

So with ICs, the time between the two hits is always well below the threshold, so Popo's move's knockback/momentum is completely ignored. Note that whatever momentum there was before Popo's hit is also completely ignored once Nana hits.
What's funny is that Popo and Nana share move decay, so Popo hitting first makes Nana's hit slightly weaker =). Of course the added % from Popo more than makes up for this, but still...

 

[DrinkingFood]

Moves only decay in knockback in Brawl. Nana's will do less damage, but the knockback doesn't decay any.

 

[ajp_anton]

Not sure what you're trying to say, but move decay in Melee affects both damage and knockback. No idea about Brawl.

 

[Kyu Puff]

So with ICs, the time between the two hits is always well below the threshold, so Popo's move's knockback/momentum is completely ignored. Note that whatever momentum there was before Popo's hit is also completely ignored once Nana hits.
What's funny is that Popo and Nana share move decay, so Popo hitting first makes Nana's hit slightly weaker =). Of course the added % from Popo more than makes up for this, but still...

Is the threshold a fixed number of frames?

Also, I guess the plus side of the move decay thing is that your moves become unstaled faster...

 

[Strong Badam]

Only if a move hits an opponent within 10 frames of the previous move does knockback stack. Otherwise, the second one overrides it. This includes Hitlag, so it's actually very rare that it occurs. Affects double shine, Ganon Dsmash, and certain tipper spacings on Sheik Up-Smash.
It shouldn't happen with Ice Climbers unless you're using a move that does less than 9 damage.

DrinkingFood, you're actually incorrect in a sense. While in Melee the move's unstaled damage is used in knockback calculation, knockback is calculated using the percentage of the victim post-hit, so move staling does affect knockback. It doesn't have nearly as much an affect as in Brawl, but it's not negligible. Check this vid for obvious proof.
Note that for whatever reason article aka projectile hits DO use the staled damage for knockback calculation, noticeable by how long it takes Samus' missiles to KO if used repeatedly.

 

[ajp_anton]

Only if a move hits an opponent within 10 frames of the previous move does knockback stack. Otherwise, the second one overrides it. This includes Hitlag, so it's actually very rare that it occurs. Affects double shine, Ganon Dsmash, and certain tipper spacings on Sheik Up-Smash.
It shouldn't happen with Ice Climbers unless you're using a move that does less than 9 damage.

The ICs are desynced by 6 frames, so I can't really think of a situation where there would be more than 10 frames between hits, regardless of damage, unless you desync them further. Maybe if Popo hits the opponent slightly out of reach so Nana has to swing her hammer further?
For Ganondorf's dsmash, it's a bit random. The desired effect is that the 2nd kick sends the opponent upwards within 10 frames so it cancels the 1st kick's backwards motion, but sometimes it hits too late and it doesn't cancel anything and the opponent keeps flying backwards.
And as I said, knockback doesn't "stack". If their directions are opposite, they (partly) cancel each other (I guess you could call this stacking positive and negative knockbacks), but you can never add knockbacks for extra speed. If the (horizontal) direction is the same, the game just chooses the one that is greater.

DrinkingFood, you're actually incorrect in a sense. While in Melee the move's unstaled damage is used in knockback calculation, knockback is calculated using the percentage of the victim post-hit, so move staling does affect knockback. It doesn't have nearly as much an affect as in Brawl, but it's not negligible. Check this vid for obvious proof.
Note that for whatever reason article aka projectile hits DO use the staled damage for knockback calculation, noticeable by how long it takes Samus' missiles to KO if used repeatedly.

Knockback is calculated from the rounded down damage *before* the hit. Proof can be found by looking at how damage is rounded before and after hits. Whatever knockback decay there is, it's separate from the damage knockback.
If you have proof of post-hit damage being used, I'd like to see it because I've seen many people claim this, and it makes no sense to me.

 

[Kyu Puff]

This discussion came up in the Fox forums, and someone brought up Falco's shine to d-air. If you do it quickly, the d-air overrides the shine knockback, but if you delay the d-air slightly the opponent falls slowly. So at least in this case, ajp anton's explanation seems to work...

I'm basically wondering if the hitstun for ICs synched moves is just hitstun from Popo + 6 frames, or if they stack somehow. For example, staled d-air does less than 9 damage and has set knockback, like shine. Does the knockback from the two d-airs combine, or does the knockback from Nana's d-air override it? Seems like both of you said it wouldn't stack, but in this case the move does less than 9 damage and hits 6 frames apart.

 

[ajp_anton]

"My explanation" (sadly) comes from years of no-life playing HRC. The effects of momentum have many times been proven in every possible scenario, both backward and forward, both inside and outside of that time threshold.
There are still some questions about vertical knockback, but at least within the time threshold it looks like it behaves the same (your shine-dair example).

The best proof for knockback being based on pre-hit damage is Bowser. He uses his fully charged fsmash in HRC, which does about 32.5% damage, so it quite frequently does both 32% and 33% of damage depending on the invisible decimals before the hit.
Both 32% and 33% hits are completely identical in strength if and only if the (rounded down) pre-hit damage is the same.
The same can be done with Roy's 20.99% trick that makes it look like pretty much every attack does 1% extra damage. Every attack behaves as if there was 20.0% of damage, ignoring that 1% extra damage after the attack.


Hitstun doesn't stack either. I'm actually not quite sure what happens if the 2nd attack's hitstun ends before the 1st attack's, but if the 2nd ends after the 1st, then that's when the hitstun ends. If they overlap, they will just overlap and not stack.
edit: If the 2nd attack's hitstun ends before the 1st, it will just cancel the hitlag of the 1st attack's victim (the attacker will still be in the hitstun).

 

[Magus420]

KB uses total damage after the hit. Hitbox damage in the formula for KBG is floored (matters for charged smashes and staled projectiles which will have decimals). A fully stale and fresh attack will have the same knockback when both total damages are the same. See what percent after the hit a fresh CF f-smash or Zelda kick (20.00 damage) with no DI from spawn point KOs, and then when fully staled (11.00 damage). They will be the same. Also the full KB formula is known, not just that it uses total damage.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

ajp and strong bad don't seem to agree on this topic at all...

knockback stacking is weird :/

 

[ajp_anton]

Aha, so it uses [(pre-hit damage) + (floored attack damage)] for the formula (and not post-hit damage)?

 

[Magus420]

No, it uses post-hit damage. What is floored is 'Damage' (damage of hitbox, with smash charge applied, without stale move multiplier applied unless it's a projectile).

{{[(Total Damage * 0.1) + (Damage * Total Damage * 0.05)] * 1.4 * [200 / (Weight + 100)] + 18} * (KBG * 0.01)} + BKB

 

[DrinkingFood]

What the actual **** am I reading
Magus, that's so smart it's stupid

 

[Ripple]

how the **** does magus only have 4,000 posts?! it seems like he always needed

 

[ajp_anton]

OK I'm confused. "Total damage" is the damage after the attack, "damage" is the floored damage of the attack?
BTW, does it really multiply the damages in "(Damage * Total Damage * 0.05)" ?
And there's lots of redundant calculation in that formula that could be simplified =).

Anyway, from what I've observed, post-hit damage doesn't matter at all. Haven't tested staled hits much, but I still don't see how it matters when the following is true for Roy's uncharged fsmash from the very right edge of the HRC platform:
20% -> 40%: 28.8m
20% -> 41%: 28.8m
21% -> 40%: 29.3m

 

[Magus420]

Total damage is the actual damage after the attack, and Damage is the damage of the attack with those things I mentioned and floored. It does multiply them like that. I just wrote down the way the game does it. Also the KB formula is essentially the same in all 3 smash games.

 

[ajp_anton]

So I didn't misunderstand it, which makes it even more confusing. Why is a 20->40 fsmash the exact same strength as a 20->41 fsmash?

 

[Bones0]

how the **** does magus only have 4,000 posts?! it seems like he always needed

Magus is the Dark Knight. He only comes when he is needed most to issue his own brand of frame data justice. He operates on his own terms, outside of the law of SmashBoards.

 

[Ripple]

how do 12 digit length grab hex strings map out exactly? I know how 20 digit length ones map out already

 

[Bl@ckChris]

how long does peach float

edit: ajp it sounds like theyre the same cuz the knockback is calculated from the initial number, not the post hit number.

 

[Bones0]

KB is calculated by the ending %. That's why stale moves result in reduced KB.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

how long does peach float

3 seconds afaik

 

[ajp_anton]

KB is calculated by the ending %. That's why stale moves result in reduced KB.

Roy's uncharged fsmash from the very right edge of the HRC platform:
20% -> 40%: 28.8m
20% -> 41%: 28.8m
21% -> 40%: 29.3m

Please explain.

 

[Bones0]

Maybe you hit with a different part of the sword, or maybe the sandbag falling over vs. standing up makes some hits seem further/shorter even if there was less/more KB?

 

[ajp_anton]

It's a widely known fact in the HRC community that the distance is a function of the damage before, not after. It happens a lot with Bowser, because his fsmash does close to 32.5%.
It doesn't matter if the sandbag was lying down or was standing upside down, but let's say it was standing normally (which it did), pushed to the very right edge (so no horizontal diff), and Roy was standing as close as possible (doesn't matter, his fsmash only has one strong hit).

 

[Tero.]

Is there anything more about priority than whose hitbox hit the opponents hurtbox first?

 

[DrinkingFood]

Hitbox priority is just based on how much damage hitboxes do. If they are within 9% of each other when the hitboxes collide, the moves will clank and cancel out the hitboxes. When they clank, if one of the moves was an aerial, both moves continue on until one person gets hit by the other hitboxes of the other persons move and stops the first person's move from finishing by knocking them back, both people get hit, or neither does. If there isn't an aerial, the the moves that clank are stopped.

Apparent priority is the more typical use of the word priority though, in reference to the priority of an attack. It's based on a lot of factors, such as hitbox priority itself, the disjointedness of the move, and how fast the hitbox comes out. A move with high damage and very disjointed hitbox that comes out quickly will have a high priority while a move with htiboxes that aren't disjointed (basically only overlapping its owner's hurtboxes) that take a while to come out and don't do much damage would have low priority.

Whose hitboxes hit who does not determine priority. Priority determines whose hitboxes hit who (assuming that two moves are coming up against each other in the first place).

 

[DRGN]

What are all of the factors that come into play for moonwalking?