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Official Ask Anyone Frame Things Thread
- Thread starter Strong Badam
- Start date
Bones0
Smash Legend
Wow, nvm. I guess they don't. I could have sworn someone posted that they do...
Bones0
Smash Legend
I don't play barlw.
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
i approve so much of your new name/avatar, whoever you once were.
Beat!
Smash Master
99% sure that's Jolteon.
It's funny 'cause at first I actually thought it was someone from AZ haha.
It's funny 'cause at first I actually thought it was someone from AZ haha.
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
who's jolteon?
MasterShake
Smash Lord
What's the reasoning for platform cancelled moves? Why do you need to hit another character first in order to do (most of?) them?
Beat!
Smash Master
Player from UK.
VA
Smash Hero
wtf since when? I was like, who's this cool shy ronnie dude? It's YOU!? Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
Warhawk
Smash Lord
Tero.
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2008
- Messages
- 2,686
1. Can I grab/utilt after doing sh ac Nair with Marth on a shield before my opponent is able to do something?
2. Assuming Marth is chaingrabing Fox/Falco (neutral DI): at what % are they able to shine before he can regrab (with and without Pivot grab)
2. Assuming Marth is chaingrabing Fox/Falco (neutral DI): at what % are they able to shine before he can regrab (with and without Pivot grab)
MT_
Smash Ace
Is there a frame within dash dancing (particularly thinking about the same frame you input dash in the opposite direction) where it is impossible to jump?
MasterShake
Smash Lord
1. My goodness. I wish. But no.1. Can I grab/utilt after doing sh ac Nair with Marth on a shield before my opponent is able to do something?
2. Assuming Marth is chaingrabing Fox/Falco (neutral DI): at what % are they able to shine before he can regrab (with and without Pivot grab)
2. idk probably like 20ish for without and early 30ish with pivot grabbing. At 30 you can just do that turnaround utilt thing though.
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
So does that make the window for a dash forward retreating jump 1 frame? The turnaround frame?
That...doesn't sound right lol
That...doesn't sound right lol
You'll do a retreating jump if and only if you hold backwards before the last jump-start-animation frame.
So if you start holding backwards on any frame before that, including the frame you press jump, you'll jump backwards.
So if you start holding backwards on any frame before that, including the frame you press jump, you'll jump backwards.
MT_
Smash Ace
Hmm I just tested it and there is definitely a frame within dash dancing that I'm unable to jump. Like I am most definitely pushing the Y button and Marth is definitely not jumping. Maybe it's on a frame (or frames) AFTER the actual turn around input? I am inputting jump and turn around very close to each other and Marth is not jumping on some frames. If turn around + jump on the same frame makes you jump backwards then maybe it's not on that frame.
IDK, I hate to find myself disagreeing with someone who is definitely more familiar with this kind of stuff but I am finding that there is at least ONE frame where you can't jump within dash dancing, and that frame is very close to the turn around input.
Well I'm actually not *that* familiar with that weird turn around while running sliding animation, as it's of no use in TASing =). I've never had any jumping problems in normal play...
I might investigate that further tomorrow if someone else doesn't get to it first.
I might investigate that further tomorrow if someone else doesn't get to it first.
leffen
Smash Champion
Nevermind, I was bored and this bothered me, so I checked it quickly. I was half wrong, there are things I never encounter when TASing...
Dash and run are defined as following, right?
Dash: the initial frames of your run, during which you can pivot.
Run: Follows the dash when you hold a direction for a while. Turning around is slow.
During the dash animation (not stand, not walk, not run), you can't jump on the same frame you turn around (pivot).
The dash animation is still active if you let go of a dash before it turns into a run, all the way until you come to a complete stop (unless you cancel it otherwise of course).
Other than that, jump always overprioritizes turn-around.
Dash and run are defined as following, right?
Dash: the initial frames of your run, during which you can pivot.
Run: Follows the dash when you hold a direction for a while. Turning around is slow.
During the dash animation (not stand, not walk, not run), you can't jump on the same frame you turn around (pivot).
The dash animation is still active if you let go of a dash before it turns into a run, all the way until you come to a complete stop (unless you cancel it otherwise of course).
Other than that, jump always overprioritizes turn-around.
MT_
Smash Ace
Alright sweet, thanks for testing it for me!
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
Wait, so how do pivot nairs work then?
I am positive I can do a pivot nair in my initial dash. When I do it correctly, my character has no forward momentum, as if I just naired during the standing animation. Does this mean that all pivot nairs are actually dash->pivot to STAND for one frame->jump->nair?
That makes sense considering my hand motions (I always have a slight delay between when I pivot and hit jump) but I never knew I did it for that reason lol
Hm, OK.
So the correct way to do a dashing retreating jump is dash->jump->hold back during the jump start animation or on the frame you hit jump.
Um... you turn around, you jump, you nair...?
Yes. Basically, if you're dashing, you lose one frame from the hold-back window. Not dashing, the jump frame is included in that window, when dashing it's not.
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
What I'm trying to say is that because of the fact you cannot jump during your turnaround, pivot aerials are therefore 1 frame slower than other pivot actions (pivot tilts, smashes, etc)
The only difference is that during a dash, pivot outprioritizes jump if done on the same frame, while otherwise it's the other way around.
Pivot takes exactly one frame, always.
Frame 1: pivot
Frame 2: jump
Frame x: nair
Note how frame1 != frame2. Trying to do those on the same frame will never make you pivot nair, dash or no dash.
Pivot takes exactly one frame, always.
Frame 1: pivot
Frame 2: jump
Frame x: nair
Note how frame1 != frame2. Trying to do those on the same frame will never make you pivot nair, dash or no dash.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,560
Yeah basically if you input the jump AND pivot on the same frame, the jump is ignored. A pivotted aerial is done by inputting jump on the frame after you input the pivot.
I'll go through the past page or two at some point and answer things that weren't answered. Some stuff I read already aren't really frame data questions though and I might not be able to answer them. Thanks goes out to ajp_anton, and others, for answering questions in my absence.
The time frame during which these responses should be finished & posted I have determined to be Soon™
I'll go through the past page or two at some point and answer things that weren't answered. Some stuff I read already aren't really frame data questions though and I might not be able to answer them. Thanks goes out to ajp_anton, and others, for answering questions in my absence.
The time frame during which these responses should be finished & posted I have determined to be Soon™
Bones0
Smash Legend
It'd be awesome if someone could go through everyone's (read: top tiers') ledge dashes and give frame breakdowns for up-B ledge grab vs. double jump ledge grab.
You can also pivot from standing and walking, in which case the pivot is ignored instead of the jump. Pivot > jump only when dashing.
rawrimamonster
Smash Ace
Serious question guys, I'm making a SERIOUS attempt to get good in melee again despite my lack of human opposition. I've plateau'd again on tech skill and I'm making serious mental adjustments to my game while I learn and adapt to new characters. I've already noted my problems but there's sometimes where I swear I timed things right but I just went too quick. So my question is, for precision's sake is learning,applying frame data and counting frames completely worth it if I mostly got a overall feel for all moves in the first place?....Honestly I really think my main problem is I need more humans who are good and not stoned/drunk ragequitters to play against but yea.
My main question, is it worth it?
My main question, is it worth it?
Learning frame data will improve fine details in play, like knowing exactly at what percents certain things will work, or by giving you an idea of how reliable or consistent various techniques are (or should be). Because you can figure out how much leeway there is for a technique, by how much room for error there is by both you and your opponent. (Also, once you've figured out what you think is your "best" course of action is for given scenarios it means you have goals, which is one way you can think less and react more while in-game.)
But playing against opponents better than yourself will make a much bigger impact. Because learning human reactions, tendencies, psychology, and playstyles -ultimately, getting in the opponent's head- is what really wins matches. (Also, through playing new people you pick up on little tactics/techniques you hadn't thought of yourself.)
So to answer simply, I would say it couldn't hurt, but good opponents is the best thing.
But playing against opponents better than yourself will make a much bigger impact. Because learning human reactions, tendencies, psychology, and playstyles -ultimately, getting in the opponent's head- is what really wins matches. (Also, through playing new people you pick up on little tactics/techniques you hadn't thought of yourself.)
So to answer simply, I would say it couldn't hurt, but good opponents is the best thing.
Bones0
Smash Legend
If you've plateaued on tech skill, you're doing it wrong.
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
Hmm I've got a question strongbad, but something tells me the answer isn't so simple, given that I went to your shieldstun/hitlag thread and was rather confused.
What determines hitstun? I know character weight influences this, and of course the attack. Does it do it directly through some unique hitstun value given to different attacks? Or is it just a function of knockback and damage and the stats of the character on the recieving end? Or something else?
What determines hitstun? I know character weight influences this, and of course the attack. Does it do it directly through some unique hitstun value given to different attacks? Or is it just a function of knockback and damage and the stats of the character on the recieving end? Or something else?
rawrimamonster
Smash Ace
Guess I should have used a different description, but I shouldnt have to explain what plateauing is (as the video you used is peak tech skill -_-). I have good tech skill but I mess up by misstiming things, and was wondering if learning exact frame timin for moves would help efficiency more than feeling it out. DRGN got it right as far as what I needed to hear about matchups.
thank you DRGN thats pretty much what I needed to hear.
Bones0
Smash Legend
You don't really need to know frame timings. Knowing that you have 10 frames of lag after a WD isn't going to help you time waveshine usmashes. All that is important is that you know HOW things work. Like if you don't know that you can't turn around in your shine during hitlag, that may mess you up.
rawrimamonster
Smash Ace
I see, so yea its just more matches against human opponents I need. I really need a good job so I can travel...been at melee since it came out and I've only been to 2 " major" tournaments and a buncha scrub gamestop/cardshop tournaments all due to living constraints...-_- Thats one more reason I'm hopeful for that melee online project, but yea johns etc.. I wont derail the thread anymore thanks guys.