Official Ask Anyone Frame Things Thread

[Strong Badam]

I can't name search because my name has a space in it and Bad is only 3 characters and Bionic won't make it searchable.
Ask me frame things here. Anywhere else I post frame things will be because I actually browse those threads.

A good start if you're looking to learn how to do such things yourself is SDM's Frame Data and Frames of Hitlag & Shieldstun Based on Stuff.
Watch out tho cuz SDM's Gentleman data is wrong. It's really:
Total: 32
Hit: 6-12
IASA: 23
Rapid Jabs Start: 13

EDIT: Master Hand (Melee Character File Viewer)

 

[Varist]

FIRST

what's the difference between Roy and Marth's Dancing Blades? People are always like "roy has boss side b" but people never explain that ****.

also, Q&A thread is filled with a bunch of *******s.

 

[Strong Badam]

I think Marth's is overall better.
But Roy's is used more often because after the first one lands, it's difficult to CC the rest of it (High Base Knockback), unlike the rest of Roy's moveset. It's good because it has good KB regardless of tipped/not tipped, unlike his other moves that are **** when tipped.

Marth's is better because Marth is Marth afterward while Roy is Roy afterward.

EDIT: If you want a better answer post again, but I'd say the biggest difference is the context of the character both moves are on.

 

[KirbyKaze]

So wait does this mean I can shield-grab after Falcon does the 3rd hit of the gentleman and get him? 'cuz it looks like I can. Provided they're in range.

 

[Strong Badam]

If they hit you on like frame 6: 23 - 6 [endlag] - 5 [shieldstun] - 7 [grab startup] = +5 frames. but if they hit you on ~frame 9 or so then it'd be pretty tight (2 frames). BTW it does 8 damage frame 6-9 and 6 damage frame 10-12. If they hit you frame 12 somehow then it's +0 so grab would win.
In short, Gentleman is shieldgrabbable with proper timing.

 

[Violence]

If a space animal fsmashes or usmashes Samus's shield, can Samus shield grab?

 

[Strong Badam]

That depends on the space animal & spacing of the fsmash. Falco's usmash does less damage and thus causes less shieldstun.
Falco/Fox U-Smash on Samus:
Hit frame 7 or 8
8 frames shieldstun (-8/10)
Endlag (+35 or 36)
Grab (-18)
Total: +9 or 10. Unless Samus' max grab reach takes forever to be reached, shield push back shouldn't be an issue.

Fsmash I'd say is too variable and I'd have to look at best/worst case scenarios. If you're still interested just post and I'll do it.

By the way, I'm assuming moves are fresh for these calculations. If you want to factor in stale moves, use the spreadsheet I provided in the second link in the OP.

 

[Jonas]

Just asking to see if I understand the hit/shieldstun calculation correctly:

Bowser's tipper Fair deals 14% damage, which, according to your hitlag and shieldstun calculator, deals 8 frames of shieldstun, and it has 15 frames of landlag if l-canceled. Most characters grab on frame 7, so if the active hitbox comes out at the last possible frame before hitting the ground, does this give him 0 frames of advantage over a shieldgrabber? If yes, is he safe from shieldgrabs if he uses Up B right away (invincible on frames 1-4)?

If yes to all of the above, this means that a frame perfect Bowser has a flawless shield pressure on Yoshi's Island lol

 

[Strong Badam]

Yes to all of above if Bowser's Fair hits the frame before landing.
Yoshi's Island is a banned stage tho.

 

[Jonas]

Crud, I meant Yoshi's Story.

Bowser is broken on that stage anyway.

He could probably still get shined or Up B'd by some characters though.
But that's pretty cool, thanks Strong Bad

 

[Strong Badam]

Sheik/Pichu could Nair OoS (Frame 6)
Shine by either character
DK/Bowser/Samus/Peach/Marth/Doc/Mario/G&W Up-B
Some other things I think

 

[t3h Icy]

When Fox goes to shine spike an opposing Fox during Firefox, how easy/hard is it to avoid getting burned and successfully hitting with shine?

 

[Strong Badam]

About 73 .

 

[ynnek123]

About 73 .

Wow, I lol'd

 

[Strong Badam]

Seriously speaking though the easiest/most effective way to shinespike through Firefox/Falco is to abuse ledge invincibility. Ledgegrab gives you 28 frames of actionable invincibility so you can be like inside them for a few frames before shining them, making it much easier to time and more practical. Doing it w/o invincibility is iffy because there is an almost infinite amount of places they can start their Up-B from and only a ~finite amount of different spacings and timings you can do realistically from an edegeguarding standpoint.

 

[Strife]

Is the amount of shield stun entirely dependent on how much damage the move does?

 

[Strong Badam]

Damage after stale moves calculation yes.

 

[40secondz]

I've heard M2K can count frames IRL.... can you?

 

[Strong Badam]

Neither of us can, outside of painting stores.

 

[ShroudedOne]

FC fair > grab
FC fair > down smash

Which one is inescapable on shield, if any? (I mean like how low knee > jab from Falcon is fully safe on shield)

 

[Strong Badam]

FC Fair -> Grab is -3
FC Fair -> Dsmash is -1
Outside of Samus/Bowser/DK UpB you should be good either way. Jab is like +2 though.

EDIT: I'm going to let questions pile up a bit so I'm not just +1ing all over the place even though this is useful information.

 

[BigD!!!]

if marth up b's to the ledge and falcon stomps him, is it possible to meteor cancel?

i can never do it, and ill meteor cancel everything else like 100x in a row if need be, and nobody else seems to do it either

 

[1048576]

What shoots more missles per second: A samus standing on the edge of FD (or any stage) doing one smash missle after another, or a perfect samus running off the edge, fast falling, double jumping back on, and shooting the smash missle repeatedly?

btw awesome thread.

 

[Violence]

Yes, I actually am interested in spacies fsmash on Samus's shield, Strong Bad, it's a question I've pondered for a long time.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Strong Badam]

if marth up b's to the ledge and falcon stomps him, is it possible to meteor cancel?

i can never do it, and ill meteor cancel everything else like 100x in a row if need be, and nobody else seems to do it either

After you start an Up-B, you can't meteor cancel for 40 frames. Marth's up-b goes up pretty fast, so you're probably only on frame ~20 by the time you get sent down. normal frame you'd be able to start meteor-canceling is ~28 in this scenario (8 frames after hitlag from the dair ends, I'm ballparking here), but you can't because you Up-B'd within 40 frames from then. it's possible to meteor-cancel at any time after 40 frames after the Up-B.

What shoots more missles per second: A samus standing on the edge of FD (or any stage) doing one smash missle after another, or a perfect samus running off the edge, fast falling, double jumping back on, and shooting the smash missle repeatedly?

The latter.

Yes, I actually am interested in spacies fsmash on Samus's shield, Strong Bad, it's a question I've pondered for a long time.

Thanks in advance!

Worst case scenario: Fox/Falco hits you on frame 22/21
Fox/Falco F-Smash on Samus:
Hit frame 22/21
Shieldstun (-7/8)
Endlag (+17/18)
Grab (-18)
Total: -8.
Not going to happen.

Mid-range scenario: Fox/Falco hits you on frame 17 (first frame of weakened damage)
Fox/Falco F-Smash on Samus:
Hit frame 17
Shieldstun (-7/8)
Endlag (+23)
Grab (-18)
Total: -2/3
Pretty close. I wouldn't be surprised if you got the grab anyway.

Best case scenario: Fox/Falco hits you on frame 12
Fox/Falco F-Smash on Samus
Hit frame 12
Shieldstun (-9/8)
Endlag (+27)
Grab (-18)
Total: +0/1
You got this.

 

[leffen]

Yoshis egg lay data, his perfect djc nair shield pressure and if you cba why his eggs bounce on shields ;o

 

[crush]

If you're frame perfect how many frames extra do you have to grab the ledge when ledgehop uair regrabbing using regular/backwords double jumps? With marth sorry.

Also in project m how many frames can sheik cling to the wall before falling?

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

I love you Strong Bad <3

 

[Violence]

Thanks a lot.

Assuming an opponent is at a full grab length away and has hit my shield, say, Marth's FSmash, how much faster is it for me to WDooS -> Dsmash compared with shield grab?

 

[BigD!!!]

sorry strong bad, i shouldve been more specific, i meant can you meteor cancel and survive, or does it send you too far down before the window opens again

obviously its % specific and depends on how long after the up b is started you get stomped, but ive seen other people get stomped and been in the situation myself at very low %'s, calmly waited until i was about sweetspotting distance, hit up b and nothing happened

you really think youre on frame 20 by the time you get stomped? i usually stomp people kinda on their way up, it seems way shorter than a third of a second

 

[saska]

Yo! Me and my friends have been debating if different characters have different amount of lag when they get hit. The lag i'm talking about is the time which starts when you get hit and ends when you can jump or attack. Like Fox having most and luigi having least or something like that. I always thought all characters have same amount of lag when in same percentage.

Who's right?

 

[Bones0]

Yo! Me and my friends have been debating if different characters have different amount of lag when they get hit. The lag i'm talking about is the time which starts when you get hit and ends when you can jump or attack. Like Fox having most and luigi having least or something like that. I always thought all characters have same amount of lag when in same percentage.

Who's right?

That's called hitstun, and you are right, it is the same for all characters. The reason Fox is easier to combo than Luigi is because of his fall speed.

 

[Veetaak]

This thread was inevitable

 

[Bones0]

After you start an Up-B, you can't meteor cancel for 40 frames. Marth's up-b goes up pretty fast, so you're probably only on frame ~20 by the time you get sent down. normal frame you'd be able to start meteor-canceling is ~28 in this scenario (8 frames after hitlag from the dair ends, I'm ballparking here), but you can't because you Up-B'd within 40 frames from then. it's possible to meteor-cancel at any time after 40 frames after the Up-B.

Does that mean Fox and Falco can meteor cancel spikes on the first frame? (Falco's up-B doesn't even start moving until frame 43)

I've also been told you can't hold up or spam jump in order to meteor cancel, so if you can confirm or deny that it would help clear some stuff up.

 

[BigD!!!]

you can most definitely hold up and then just tap b when you want to meteor cancel, but if you hit up b or jump you cant meteor cancel within the next 40 frames

thats something a lot of people believe though, and i think its a reason that a lot of people are bad at meteor canceling

 

[Sinji]

Will foxe's upsmash oos hit peach after here dsmash during shield DI?

 

[BigD!!!]

if i shield sheiks dsmash, how good does my spotdodge have to be for it to be a good idea to spotdodge the last hit in order to run in and punish?

 

[ShroudedOne]

Will foxe's upsmash oos hit peach after here dsmash during shield DI?

Unless you're at the tip of her down smash, and if you down get poked, then I'm sure that it should if you don't shield DI. If you DI in, then it will, but that's risky. If you shield DI away, probably not.

if i shield sheiks dsmash, how good does my spotdodge have to be for it to be a good idea to spotdodge the last hit in order to run in and punish?

Just wavedash out of shield.

 

[Varist]

Regarding Falco,

what's the minimum height you have to reach before you can Up-B into the ground and bounce, instead of being forced right?

That is, when positioned on the stage, how many frames after a jump input must you wait to input the Up-B command, to be able to Up-B downwards?

 

[Dr_Strangelove]

it looks like you've bitten off more than you can chew by making this thread, buddy.