Official Ask Anyone Frame Things Thread

[commonyoshi]

So I noticed sometimes I am unable to jump out of a shine in the air, and it seems like it has something to do when I'm doing a shine turnaround... Is this a thing, or is it just me?

 

[Pi]

ur gonna regret this lol

 

[Bones0]

So I noticed sometimes I am unable to jump out of a shine in the air, and it seems like it has something to do when I'm doing a shine turnaround... Is this a thing, or is it just me?

Shine has 4 frames of hitlag. That's why you can shine turn-around bair easily when you're just practicing, but when you hit an opponent it becomes harder to time it with those 4 frames.

 

[Strong Badam]

What the ****. K, working. Just woke up.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

That shieldstun calculator seems to mislead people into thinking that you hit with aerials even close to the frame you land. Most of the time most of the shield stun is gone before you even hit the ground.

 

[Pi]

when samus drops a bomb on her opponents shield, and gets affected (bounced) by the proceeding explosion
how much of an advantage is she at
i ask this because the bomb acts like a projectile, but also interacts w/ samus
so does samus go through hitlag when it explodes as well? or does the opponent suffer the hitlag while samus gets' bounced

 

[Bones0]

I would assume Samus's bombs have no hitlag because, like you said, it's a projectile. The fact that it makes her bounce as soon as it hits shouldn't matter.

 

[Pi]

projectiles have hitlag though so i am not following u...

 

[Bones0]

Not for the user, they don't.

 

[Strong Badam]

Yoshis egg lay data, his perfect djc nair shield pressure and if you cba why his eggs bounce on shields ;o

No idea on Egg Lay. No one's researched it AFAIK. I think from experience though that the escape formula doesn't scale with % (???).
DJC:
1-5 frames jump startup
frame 6 nothing
frame 7 DJ
frame 8 nair input
frame 9 wait or L-Cancel
frame 10 wait or L-Cancel
frame 11 hitbox, FF
frame 12 land, frame 1 landlag
13, 2
14, 3
15, 4
16, 5
17, 6
18, 7
Frame 19, jump


Ignored hitlag since both parties suffer the same amount (7 frames starting frame 11). Takes 18 frames between reps, they suffer 8 frames of shieldstun, and so have 10 frames to do stuff.

If you're frame perfect how many frames extra do you have to grab the ledge when ledgehop uair regrabbing using regular/backwords double jumps? With marth sorry.

9 frames.

Thanks a lot.

Assuming an opponent is at a full grab length away and has hit my shield, say, Marth's FSmash, how much faster is it for me to WDooS -> Dsmash compared with shield grab?

I'd have to do testing & this would depend on Shield DI and other factors. If I had to guess I'd say by 6-8ish frames because grab takes forever to reach full range.

sorry strong bad, i shouldve been more specific, i meant can you meteor cancel and survive, or does it send you too far down before the window opens again

obviously its % specific and depends on how long after the up b is started you get stomped, but ive seen other people get stomped and been in the situation myself at very low %'s, calmly waited until i was about sweetspotting distance, hit up b and nothing happened

you really think youre on frame 20 by the time you get stomped? i usually stomp people kinda on their way up, it seems way shorter than a third of a second

Stomp does 16 damage IIRC, which causes it to have 8 frames of hitlag, which counts toward the timer. Probably most of your issues are because of this. I think it's possible but I'd have to check. Definitely at 0-20%ish.

That's called hitstun, and you are right, it is the same for all characters. The reason Fox is easier to combo than Luigi is because of his fall speed.

No, this is wrong. Non-throw Knockback/Hitstun is affected by a characters weight. Refer to this graphic for weight lists. While it's not 100% perfect due to the existence of Base Knockback (knockback that occurs regardless of weight and %), a fairly accurate formula is (Weight/100) * Hitstun or Knockback. Hitstun = Knockback * 0.4, so they're directly related. & Mario/Luigi/Doc (NTSC) are the base for hitstun/knockback. At any given % a move will cause less hitstun to Bowser or Samus than it will to Fox or G&W. Don't answer if you're wrong.

Does that mean Fox and Falco can meteor cancel spikes on the first frame? (Falco's up-B doesn't even start moving until frame 43)

I've also been told you can't hold up or spam jump in order to meteor cancel, so if you can confirm or deny that it would help clear some stuff up.

You can hold up and then press B, but holding up won't buffer a jump UNLESS you are Jigglypuff or Kirby and have already used a mid-air jump. Additionally, Meteor Canceling window begins frame 8 after exiting hitlag, not frame 1. But yeah, you're right, that's why Fox/Falco are able to meteor cancel so consistently.

Terminology ****ery: Spike = non-meteor cancelable, usually sends at 290 angle. True examples of this are Ganondorf's Down-B, Falcon's Nipple Spike on Down-Air, Falco's Down-Air, Marth's Down-Air, and Roy's Upsmash (one of the hitboxes sends at 259). There might be more.
Meteor = meteor cancelable, sends at 270 angle (straight down). Actual threshold is 260-280, but I don't think non-270 meteors exist.

Will foxe's upsmash oos hit peach after here dsmash during shield DI?

Depends on # and severity of Shield DI inputs as well as original spacing.

if i shield sheiks dsmash, how good does my spotdodge have to be for it to be a good idea to spotdodge the last hit in order to run in and punish?

D-Smash has to be at least 2 or 3 levels of stale in order for it to even be possible to spotdodge Second hit -> last hit is perfect on shield. But in that case, as long as the char has a spotdodge that ends by frame 22 you should be good. Examples are Doc/Mario/Luigi/Samus/Fox/Falco/Sheik, among others.

Regarding Falco,

what's the minimum height you have to reach before you can Up-B into the ground and bounce, instead of being forced right?

That is, when positioned on the stage, how many frames after a jump input must you wait to input the Up-B command, to be able to Up-B downwards?

This is a useless question. It's just whenever the height is such that by frame 42 the height loss during the first 41 frames isn't enough to cause you to be grounded.

That shieldstun calculator seems to mislead people into thinking that you hit with aerials even close to the frame you land. Most of the time most of the shield stun is gone before you even hit the ground.

It does assume that you hit with the aerial the frame before you land. ??? Was there something else you wanted to say?

when samus drops a bomb on her opponents shield, and gets affected (bounced) by the proceeding explosion
how much of an advantage is she at
i ask this because the bomb acts like a projectile, but also interacts w/ samus
so does samus go through hitlag when it explodes as well? or does the opponent suffer the hitlag while samus gets' bounced

Samus does not suffer hitlag as it is an article (the hitbox is attached to the bomb rather than Samus). It does 4 damage so 4 frames of hitlag + 3 frames of shieldstun = 7 frames during which the opponent can't do anything. It seems to IASA frame 2 so you have 6 frames of advantage.

I'm going to limit frame thing questions to 5 between answers so this **** doesn't happen again. Deal w/ it

 

[Pi]

right but most projectiles don't interact w/ their user so was just curious
also i mean no offense to u personally by this
but it kinda irks me a bit when people give their assumptions as answers to questions ;p
it's just kind of a useless post you kno?

and i just tested it, hitlag is something like 3 frames, doesn't affect samus in terms of hitlag, so ur assumption was correct
but all the same, it still didn't serve as a answer to my question, as most assumptions don't
(also "The fact that it makes her bounce as soon as it hits shouldn't matter." is a akward thing to say, this is a unique scenerio in the game, whats ur basis for claiming it doesn't matter? that's what i thought when i read it at least)

so yea.

[edit] hearing information like "Samus does not suffer hitlag as it is an article (the hitbox is attached to the bomb rather than Samus)." makes a statement like "The fact that it makes her bounce as soon as it hits shouldn't matter." have more grounds though, so if u kno information like that attatch it to ur assumptions

 

[Strong Badam]

yes mr. bones u need to step up ur replies. because of that big **** taj post i'll let it slide but u need to step it up

 

[Bones0]

Whoops, sorry. I WAS JUST TRYING TO HELP!

I could have sworn I saw Magus post that hit stun was universal...

 

[Pi]

intersting i also thought hitstun was universal, but my example i always gave was off of foxes throw
if he inputs the same jump dj upair sequence on samus vs. puff
it will hit puff, but samus will have traveled further, but the upair will still come out before she's out of hitstun, he just won't be near enough to her to hit her with it

cool to learn stuff though, neat


also strongbad, the influx of ?'s is probably going to die off pretty quick after the first wave goes thru

i hope the below is tru, i'd rather not have to tell certain people i was wrong. no offense SB, i just hate being wrong to these certain people.

 

[Bones0]

-Hitstun is universal. You can't give a character less hitstun, or an attack more hitstun. Roy has the same amount of hitstun as every other character in the game. He's just a semi-FFer so he gets comboed more easily with that stun. To actually give him less hitstun you'd need to reduce the hitstun of all characters in the game by changing the global hitstun constant from 0.4 to something lower. To make him less comboable (but still the same amount of hitstun) you'd need to make him floaty.

I knew it! I love having a godlike memory. >.> Strong Bad vs. Magus. I'm hyped.

 

[Strong Badam]

LOL. He said that hitstun is universal as in it's based on knockback and you can't add hitstun to a move without changing its knockback. Notice how he didn't mention changing Roy's weight. If you want to challenge me then explain why Fox's shine knocks down characters of weight 85 and lower but doesn't against characters of weight 87 or higher? It's because against characters with weight 85 or lower, they suffer from 31+ frames of hitstun (Approximately ~80 derpmeters of knockback). This is the threshold for tumble hitstun, i.e. when a character gets knocked over. This is a good explanation for why Fox's shine knocks over Marth in PAL but not in NTSC. Marth wasn't just reprogrammed to get knocked down; his weight was changed. Next time James is on IRC I'll bug him to come back me up.

[edit] hearing information like "Samus does not suffer hitlag as it is an article (the hitbox is attached to the bomb rather than Samus)." makes a statement like "The fact that it makes her bounce as soon as it hits shouldn't matter." have more grounds though, so if u kno information like that attatch it to ur assumptions

The bounce is relevant to what Samus can do with the 6 frames of frame advantage. The fact that said bounce IASA's frame 2 and she would otherwise have no frame advantage is actually very relevant, though.

 

[Bones0]

 

[Strong Badam]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JhCyd_Oi_8

 

[Pi]

laaaaaaame now i gotta tell people i was wrong Zzz

also SB give a better example since most people don't know wtf ur talkin about when u talk about threshhold for tumble hitstun, and derpmeters (i'm assuming the agreed upon units of distance used in smash)

that's like if someone asks u what an apple is and u tell them 'its a fruit'

chances are they don't know what a fruit is either or how it relates to an apple lol

 

[Bones0]

The shine knocking Marth over in PAL is a pretty simple example (I previously just thought this was some shine-specific trait :| )

 

[Strong Badam]

at 0% Fox upsmashes Jigglypuff. Jigglypuff goes into tumble and has 34 frames of hitstun.
at 0% Fox upsmashes Bowser. Bowser does not go into tumble and has 30 frames of hitstun.

Why

 

[Pi]

here's some questions

when a char is floaty, like luigi, jiggs, samus
it's due to their fall speed only? or a combination of fall speed & weight?

and weight affects how far you travel when you get hit? or is that fall speed exclusively? or a combo of both?

and then hitstun is related exclusively to a chars weight, in terms of how it may vary from another chars? and fall speed doesn't affect hitstun at all?

so the less weight, and faster fall speed of a character, the 'easier' they are to combo?

 

[Bones0]

Because Bowser is heavier! :3

derp

I think it's something like weight affects horizontal knockback while fall speed affects vertical knockback, which is why Samus gets killed of the top really easily but lives forever on the sides.

 

[Pi]

^good, u back up ur claim this time ;p

ic, why is melee so intricate hm....
may give some insight into char specific combo DI options

 

[Strong Badam]

fall speed does not affect knockback (Which I've already explained is directly related to Hitstun). it just decays the initial launch speed, as gravity pulls your character down. It affects survivability and kill %'s, but not actual knockback.

 

[Bones0]

If you die at a lower percent, how is it not affecting knockback?

 

[Strong Badam]

Because knockback and when you die aren't directly related. Captain Falcon suffers less knockback from Falco's dair at 50% offstage than say Mario does, but because of Captain Falcon's higher falling speed he's more likely to die. This isn't because of knockback, but because of a different nuance of smash physics altogether.

Fox Upsmash vs. G&W and Jigglypuff kill at different %ages because G&W falls faster than Jigglypuff. This doesn't mean that Jigglypuff suffers more initial knockback, but rather, that her falling speed doesn't negate knockback's affect on her movement quickly enough to save her while G&W's does. They both have the same weight and thus suffer the exact same amount of knockback but have different kill percentages.

 

[Bones0]

Is knockback a unit of power? I've been thinking of it as a unit of distance, which might be why I'm so confused. Would it be correct to say G&W lives longer because his gravity is pulling him down against the force of knockback, resulting in a shorter distance?

 

[Strong Badam]

Yes .

 

[Jonas]

What exactly does tumble do except knock you over when you land? I assume you can't airdodge out of it, but can't you attack?

 

[Strong Badam]

yeah it's just a benchmark to compare knockbacks with.

 

[Divinokage]

I'd like to know the frame stuff about Ganon's moves on shield if it's + or -. More importantly, Jab, Ftilt, downtilt, Fair, Bair, uair, dair.

 

[Mew2King]

Strongbad was that a serious question about Bowser and Jigglypuff? The heavier a character is, the less hitstun they have. Besides how hard a character gets knocked horizontally (the ONLY factor in this is weight, unless you could double jump momentum cancel which barely matters in this game compared to brawl). Bowser has less hitstun and does not go into tumble because he is heavier.

 

[Bones0]

Strongbad was that a serious question about Bowser and Jigglypuff? The heavier a character is, the less hitstun they have. Besides how hard a character gets knocked horizontally (the ONLY factor in this is weight, unless you could double jump momentum cancel which barely matters in this game compared to brawl). Bowser has less hitstun and does not go into tumble because he is heavier.

It was rhetorical.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Bones, you should probably let Strong Bad answer all questions specifically directed at him...

Which, considering this is the "ask Strong Bad" thread, would be all of them.

 

[Bones0]

Bones, you should probably let Strong Bad answer all questions specifically directed at him...

Which, considering this is the "ask Strong Bad" thread, would be all of them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xsk6t6MLuUQ#t=4m45s

 

[Jonas]

Is the first frame of shieldstun also the first frame in which the hitbox touches the shield? If it begins on the same frame this would automatically subtract 1 frame of advantage from every move.

Like, take an aerial that is performed a close to the ground as possible (move connects on the last frame before landing). Say it does 13% damage (7 frames of shieldstun) and landlag is 7 frames when l-canceled. If shieldstun begins on the same frame that the attack hits, this gives -1, since the defender can act on frame 6 of the attacker's landlag.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Cool thread. =) I'll be back sometime for frame thing questions.

 

[Strong Badam]

Strongbad was that a serious question about Bowser and Jigglypuff? The heavier a character is, the less hitstun they have. Besides how hard a character gets knocked horizontally (the ONLY factor in this is weight, unless you could double jump momentum cancel which barely matters in this game compared to brawl). Bowser has less hitstun and does not go into tumble because he is heavier.

It was a rhetorical question to prove my point.

I'd like to know the frame stuff about Ganon's moves on shield if it's + or -. More importantly, Jab, Ftilt, downtilt, Fair, Bair, uair, dair.

they're all - on shield. fair & bair are -3 tho which is pretty decent.

Is the first frame of shieldstun also the first frame in which the hitbox touches the shield? If it begins on the same frame this would automatically subtract 1 frame of advantage from every move.

Like, take an aerial that is performed a close to the ground as possible (move connects on the last frame before landing). Say it does 13% damage (7 frames of shieldstun) and landlag is 7 frames when l-canceled. If shieldstun begins on the same frame that the attack hits, this gives -1, since the defender can act on frame 6 of the attacker's landlag.

When the hitbox connects, both characters go through hitlag. You do 13% damage, so the move has 7 frames of hitlag. If you were to indeed land on the frame after the hitbox connects, then you'd land on the frame after hitlag (l-canceled landlag starting on this frame), which is also the first frame of shieldstun for the opponent.

 

[Jonas]

Right, forgot about hitlag. The thing that makes mess up my l-cancel when I hit people or their shield with Ganons Dair lol.