Official Ask Anyone Frame Things Thread

[Ripple]

Someone did a tutorial on how to read Melee code in Dolphin, but I can’t find it anymore. Could you please give me the link to it if you have it? It would be so great to be able to do that for me.

I haven't seen it myself. I saw cosmo do it with Castlevania

 

[Sashimi]

Speed is change in distance over time. You can't measure speed on any one particular frame. This is Physics 101. lol

If you want to measure jump speed, you can simply look at how far your character travels from one frame to the next. You can probably get the exact number through some more intense methods, but I wouldn't know how.

Yes, what I meant was "Is there any way I can tell how much I've moved from the previous frame," but I'm looking for a more exact way than eyeballing it. Sorry for not wording it properly, I sent that message right before leaving to go somewhere.

get dolphin. run melee. look at the code being read. find x, y, and z positions of your character. advance 1 frame.

done

Thanks, I'll look into this.

 

[TKD]

Unless speed stays the same until nearing the apex of a jump, I'm guessing acceleration is gonna make this information really complicated to put into use.

 

[Jazriel]

Finally remembered the thing I wanted to know about. Is there a resource/has this been done before/what is the data regarding chain grabs? I'm specifically interested in knowing if Mario has truly inescapable 0-to-death chain grabs on Fox and/or other characters.

If this material doesn't exist, I would absolutely love an in-depth analysis of "TAS chain grabs" so-to-speak. Or a cool combo video like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLuFpmoKUVQ

 

[SAUS]

I noticed while practicing with a buddy that if you down-b on a platform (and you are not frame perfect - I think...), you drop through the platform. I noticed it because he was having trouble shining on platforms. I tested it out with other characters and it works well. Most characters can't use it, but as a Link main, drop through platform and pull out a bomb is legit. Does this basically cancel the whole go-through-the-platform animation? When done correctly, it just looks like a normal down-b, but you just fall through the platform like it's not there.

 

[Bones0]

I noticed while practicing with a buddy that if you down-b on a platform (and you are not frame perfect - I think...), you drop through the platform. I noticed it because he was having trouble shining on platforms. I tested it out with other characters and it works well. Most characters can't use it, but as a Link main, drop through platform and pull out a bomb is legit. Does this basically cancel the whole go-through-the-platform animation? When done correctly, it just looks like a normal down-b, but you just fall through the platform like it's not there.

You have to release the control stick (or move it somewhere other than downwards) before shine ends. When you hit an opponent with the shine, the hitlag gives you extra time which is why it's really easy to shine opponents without dropping through. I'm not sure if that's the same thing that is happening with Link's down+B as you might simply be pressing down too early. You can test stuff by pausing on a plat and holding down+B when you unpause, or by pausing at the very beginning of your down+B to see what the release threshold is (if there is one).

 

[SAUS]

When I do it with Link, I definitely press down first, and then I press b very shortly after. Otherwise, Link stays on the platform.

 

[Strong Badam]

How much hitstun does crouch canceling a move give you? I'm kinda tired of losing strictly to Fox's nair.

And this is off-topic, but can you SDI a move you crouch canceled?

What do you mean by crouch-canceling? Many players refer to "CCing" as the act of simply holding down during the endlag of something; this is known among more astute players as "fake CCing." It's simply a combination of a few gameplay mechanics. By holding down you ASDI down (~half the potency of actual SDI), and if you land during hitstun/knockback your hitstun is "canceled" (this is easily observed in many cases, a simple one is when you get shined by Fox while airborne with a character that is of Marth weight or higher) by your landing. In this case, it's fairly unpredictable how much of the hitstun you cancel, because the move's trajectory, knockback, your %/weight/falling speed are variables that all contribute to how long it takes for you to land.
If you are actually crouching ("true CC"), the attack inflicts knockback equal to 2/3rds of the knockback (and therefore hitstun, as these two are directly related. hitstun = knockback * 0.4) it otherwise would have. Additionally, the hitlag you suffer is halved.
Since Fox is able to do low nair -> shine and beat most CCing attempts, CC is a fairly unreliable option against it at higher levels of play. Additionally, his down-air isn't CCable, so if you get in the habit of CCing his approaches often a more seasoned Fox player will simply down-air or grab you. It's a multihit that sends downward already (since you do not go airborne, the "hitstun cancel" effect that ASDI downward produces does not occur).

Yeah, you can SDI moves that you've CC'd.

Yes, what I meant was "Is there any way I can tell how much I've moved from the previous frame," but I'm looking for a more exact way than eyeballing it. Sorry for not wording it properly, I sent that message right before leaving to go somewhere.

The game tracks your position (x & y) each frame, so yeah you could technically do it with debug mode or watching certain addresses in the game's RAM. I never really did that in Melee though, I believe standardtoaster and Magus have. And potentially Kadano. For most general physics things, I am capable of calculating change in position per frame if I want to. I usually do not unless I'm investigating something specific, though.

 

[Bones0]

Since Fox is able to do low nair -> shine and beat most CCing attempts, CC is a fairly unreliable option against it at higher levels of play.

Can't you just CC and buffer shield to avoid the shine every time? M2K CCs religiously so it seems sort of weird to say it's unreliable at high levels...

 

[Thor]

Frame advantage/disadvantage for a Falco shine on shield to jump-cancelled grab? I read like 8 pages of this trying to find it but got bored so I'll just ask.

 

[Bones0]

Frame advantage/disadvantage for a Falco shine on shield to jump-cancelled grab? I read like 8 pages of this trying to find it but got bored so I'll just ask.

I think I put it in the Falco hitbox thread. If I only put doubleshine frame data, it's the same idea. Just count 1 frame of jumpsquat and 7 frames for the grab instead of 5 for jumpsquat and 1 for shine (so 2 frames slower).

 

[Alulim]

Can't you just CC and buffer shield to avoid the shine every time? M2K CCs religiously so it seems sort of weird to say it's unreliable at high levels...

I haven't tried this before, but might I ask how this is performed? By hitting L/R and down together, a character would end up dodging. Tilting it down lightly with the L/R button would generate a tilted down shield.

 

[Sashimi]

I have a few questions.

I've been told Fox can jump out of shine on frame 2 (assuming no hitlag), but in Dolphin I can't seem to get this to work. The earliest I can jump out is frame 4, is this how it's supposed to work?

And is there somewhere I can get the frame data for Falco's SHL? I'd like to find the timing for all the different heights.

Thanks!

 

[rpotts]

You can jump out of shine in the air on frame 2, I believe, but jumpsquat slows that down on the ground.

 

[dRevan64]

It is always frame four that you can jump out of shine. Jumpsquat is applied afterwards.

 

[Sashimi]

It is always frame four that you can jump out of shine. Jumpsquat is applied afterwards.

Awesome, thanks!

 

[Bones0]

I haven't tried this before, but might I ask how this is performed? By hitting L/R and down together, a character would end up dodging. Tilting it down lightly with the L/R button would generate a tilted down shield.

Well if you're CCing an attack, you're already holding down. Pressing L/R when you're already crouched won't make you spotdodge, and even if you press them at the same time, the stun from their first attack usually prevents your trigger input from doing anything right away so you will just hold-buffer a downward tilted shield after stun ends.

I honestly recommend going through M2K videos to see when he gets off CC + hold-buffer shields. It's kind of ridiculous how often he does it. The first video I checked he did it in the first 5 seconds of the first match...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJu6EVYq8Po#t=55s - He utilts Mango, gets jabbed, but immediately crouches and hold-buffers shield (you can see his crouch if you pause at the right time).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJu6EVYq8Po#t=2m9s - After he does a ledgestand, he CC + hold-buffer shields Mango's DJ bair (though he gets shield poked by a utilt right after).

It's worth mentioning these are not true CCs, they are fake CCs like Strong Bad mentioned which only utilize ASDI downward into the ground and aren't actually reducing KB or stun through the crouch effect.

I have a few questions.

I've been told Fox can jump out of shine on frame 2 (assuming no hitlag), but in Dolphin I can't seem to get this to work. The earliest I can jump out is frame 4, is this how it's supposed to work?

And is there somewhere I can get the frame data for Falco's SHL? I'd like to find the timing for all the different heights.

Thanks!

Shine (for both spacies) lasts 3 frames. It hits and is invincible on frame 1, frames 2 and 3 are lag. Frame 4 it becomes jumpcancellable. This is all in the respective hitbox and frame data threads so you can check back there if you forget.

There isn't a list of frame data for Falco's SHL because firstly, it's not going to help you actually laser at all, and secondly, there's TONS of possibilities. You can alter your B-input timing and FF timing to create a bunch of different heights that come out at a bunch of different speeds. Just practice on your own while mixing up both of those timings and seeing what sort of possibilities you have.

 

[Kadano]

The game tracks your position (x & y) each frame, so yeah you could technically do it with debug mode or watching certain addresses in the game's RAM. I never really did that in Melee though, I believe standardtoaster and Magus have. And potentially Kadano. For most general physics things, I am capable of calculating change in position per frame if I want to. I usually do not unless I'm investigating something specific, though.

I attempted it recently, but I ran into a problem I could make no sense of. Here’s what I did:

1. Dolphin debug mode, get one character on FD and search for codes.
2. Go to the right (hoping that x is stored as 0=left and 65535/whatever=right) for 1 frame and search for “greater than”
3. Repeat step 2 until I’m near the ledge
4. Turn left and keep walking for a few frames, then search for “less than”.
5. Repeat step 4 several times
6. Repeat 3 and 5 until only one adress remains
7. Repeat some more to eliminate false positives

The remaining adress only went away if I made an error (eg “greater than” when I went left), otherwise it always stayed there. So I induced that it had to be correct.
Now the problem was that when I looked at that adress at certain character positions and refreshed (I could not find a “constantly refresh” option, is there one?), the changes didn’t seem proportionate to each other at all. Also, when I clicked on what I understood as “force this value to this adress”, nothing happened in-game at all.
Got any idea what I need to do differently?

Also, @all: count me out of here for some time as I want to get started with some projects and I feel giving well-researched answers here draws from the same motivation pool within me as going meta. (The projects are mostly Melee-related, yes.)

 

[Alulim]

Well if you're CCing an attack, you're already holding down. Pressing L/R when you're already crouched won't make you spotdodge, and even if you press them at the same time, the stun from their first attack usually prevents your trigger input from doing anything right away so you will just buffer a downward tilted shield after stun ends.

I honestly recommend going through M2K videos to see when he gets off CC+buffer shields. It's kind of ridiculous how often he does it. The first video I checked he did it in the first 5 seconds of the first match...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJu6EVYq8Po#t=55s - He utilts Mango, gets jabbed, but immediately crouches and buffers shield (you can see his crouch if you pause at the right time).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJu6EVYq8Po#t=2m9s - After he does a ledgestand, he CC+shields Mango's DJ bair (though he gets shield poked by a utilt right after).

Wow. That's an unbelievable buffer - Thanks for explaining it!

 

[Kadano]

It’s not a buffer, though. It would be a buffer if you could hit R just before the last frame of your lag, let go of it immediately and get a shield when the lag is over. But we all know it doesn’t work like that, and there are very few things in Melee that do.
Instead of calling things buffer that aren’t buffers, I propose differentiating between buffer input queries, fresh input queries and held input queries. (Names open to suggestions.)
When you are grounded, held input queries are active always or almost always when you’re not in lag. They don’t care whether you’ve been holding the buttons for 5 frames or 5000.

 

[Bones0]

It’s not a buffer, though. It would be a buffer if you could hit R just before the last frame of your lag, let go of it immediately and get a shield when the lag is over. But we all know it doesn’t work like that, and there are very few things in Melee that do.
Instead of calling things buffer that aren’t buffers, I propose differentiating between buffer input queries, fresh input queries and held input queries. (Names open to suggestions.)
When you are grounded, held input queries are active always or almost always when you’re not in lag. They don’t care whether you’ve been holding the buttons for 5 frames or 5000.

Hmmm, never thought about how that was different from buffering. Maybe we can just call it a hold-buffer? I feel like that would intuitively be understood as saying "as long as you hold the input, the action will occur on the first possible frame". So if you roll out of pressure with the C-stick, you are performing a hold-buffer.

 

[Strong Badam]

dat buffered walk! hyuck hyuck

 

[SAUS]

You have to release the control stick (or move it somewhere other than downwards) before shine ends. When you hit an opponent with the shine, the hitlag gives you extra time which is why it's really easy to shine opponents without dropping through. I'm not sure if that's the same thing that is happening with Link's down+B as you might simply be pressing down too early. You can test stuff by pausing on a plat and holding down+B when you unpause, or by pausing at the very beginning of your down+B to see what the release threshold is (if there is one).

I tested it out using the pausing technique (as Link). If I input down and B at the same time (using the pause technique), Link doesn't go through the platform. There is a distinct delay between pressing down and then B that allows him to fall through the platform while pulling out a bomb, but it's a very short one.

I will test it with space animal shine tonight, but my guess is that it'd work the same as Link, and you'd have to hit both inputs on the same frame in order to avoid going through the platform. I think it is easier to do it when you hit people because when you hit with shine, it is usually after a wavedash or aerial, and you are already holding down when you go to do the input. Since you are holding down, you cannot go through the platform. My guess is that it is something like: you start the 'go through platform' process (starts with a crouch) and then you 'cancel' it with your down-b. I'm not sure if you have to wait until you are actually going through the platform (after the 2? frames of crouching) or not, which I think is my main question. Is it possible to down-b drop in a similar way to shield drop?

EDIT
Okay I tried it with fox and it is as you say Bones0. That is so weird. If you are already holding down, then you can shine without falling through, but otherwise, you have to let go really quickly. Is it possible to waveshine on platforms faster than on the ground by doing this and using your double jump instead of your regular jump? Still interested in the frame timings for Link's down-b.

 

[DRGN]

Also, @all: count me out of here for some time as I want to get started with some projects and I feel giving well-researched answers here draws from the same motivation pool within me as going meta. (The projects are mostly Melee-related, yes.)

Does that count any that I know of?

I've been wanting to get back to some Melee related stuff as well. Just been ridiculously busy the last few months.

 

[chenjesu]

I want to know what the ice climbers pummel hitboxes / frames are. They don't list pummels on SDM's page, or in the frame data thread.

 

[JazzDynamite!]

Hey Kadano, if you are still watching this thread I have a question.

How vulnerable is Young Link during his ledge hop bomb pull to re-grab? (if performed as soon as possible after grabbing the ledge)

And how many invincibility frames does Young Link have to work with after a frame perfect ledge dash?

 

[DRGN]

If it's frame-perfect here's how it would go.
Blue = Invincible (technically, "Intangible")

1 : First grabs onto ledge. "Cliffcatch" animation starts, which would normally last for 7 more frames
2-6: Can't cancel cliffcatch animation with ledge drop yet
7 : Input ledge drop and cancel cliffcatch animation
8 : Input jump
9 : Input bomb pull
10-36: Jumping and pulling out bomb
37: Invincibility runs out
38-48: Falling
49: Regrabs ledge. Invincible again.

So of the 48 total frames (not counting grabbing the ledge twice), he's vulnerable for 12 frames. In other words he's vulnerable for exactly 1/4 of the time. And intangible for the other 3/4ths of it.

Though the idea of "frame perfect" is debatable, because even if everything was executed perfectly in real life, there would still be a difference between that and within an emulator. Mostly because of the control sticks, e.g. you can't move the stick from all the way down to all the way up in one frame IRL.

I'm not really sure what you mean by the second question. Do you mean how many frames that he can do something after wavedashing up, before his ledge invincibility runs out?

 

[JazzDynamite!]

Thank you! And yes, that is what I meant. Sorry for the poor wording haha

 

[ZetTroxX]

I´m a Falco player and I struggle vs the shine oos of Fox when I pressure him. When he hits me with his shine out of an aerial I find myself not teching because I wanted to L-Cancel and screw up the tech-timing, mostly doing a getup attack afterwards which allows him to follow up easily.

Now, I´ve noticed top Falco players nearly tech every time they get shined out of their shield pressure, which leads me to the question: How the **** do they do that? Is there a way to cover both L-canceling the aerial and teching in case of getting shined?

 

[dRevan64]

I´m a Falco player and I struggle vs the shine oos of Fox when I pressure him. When he hits me with his shine out of an aerial I find myself not teching because I wanted to L-Cancel and screw up the tech-timing, mostly doing a getup attack afterwards which allows him to follow up easily.

Now, I´ve noticed top Falco players nearly tech every time they get shined out of their shield pressure, which leads me to the question: How the **** do they do that? Is there a way to cover both L-canceling the aerial and teching in case of getting shined?

Yes. Cancelling your aerial with z instead of l does not activate the tech window.

 

[ZetTroxX]

WHAT? Are u serious?? Sorry but I´ve never heard of that before, do you have something like a source for that?

 

[Monkley6]

I´m a Falco player and I struggle vs the shine oos of Fox when I pressure him. When he hits me with his shine out of an aerial I find myself not teching because I wanted to L-Cancel and screw up the tech-timing, mostly doing a getup attack afterwards which allows him to follow up easily.

Now, I´ve noticed top Falco players nearly tech every time they get shined out of their shield pressure, which leads me to the question: How the **** do they do that? Is there a way to cover both L-canceling the aerial and teching in case of getting shined?

You can also l-cancel with a soft press of L/R too, which doesn't activate the tech window as well. Or so I'm told. (no actual testing from me, just passing on what I've read)

 

[dRevan64]

WHAT? Are u serious?? Sorry but I´ve never heard of that before, do you have something like a source for that?

http://smashboards.com/threads/what-button-do-you-use-to-l-cancel.346851

 

[Kadano]

You can also l-cancel with a soft press of L/R too, which doesn't activate the tech window as well. Or so I'm told. (no actual testing from me, just passing on what I've read)

It’s true. Only inputs that could cause a tech can trigger the tech window. Analog shoulder button presses can never do that, so they are safe to use. Z is technically nothing more than lightest shield + A, so it‘s the same for that.

 

[Torsade de pointe]

I've got a question. What is the frame window to powershield non projectile attacks ? Is it 1-4 or 3-4 ? I've come across conflicting answers.


Also I didn't really get the difference between fake CC and true CC. Is the fake one when you hold down during hitlag, and the true one when you hold down and actually crouch before you get hit ? Or am I missing the point ?

 

[Kadano]

I've got a question. What is the frame window to powershield non projectile attacks ? Is it 1-4 or 3-4 ? I've come across conflicting answers.


Also I didn't really get the difference between fake CC and true CC. Is the fake one when you hold down during hitlag, and the true one when you hold down and actually crouch before you get hit ? Or am I missing the point ?

1-4.

Yes, it’s exactly like that.

 

[Torsade de pointe]

Alright, thanks a lot.

One more question : does stale-move negation affect knockback ? I would logically assume it does, since it affect how much damage is dealt, but I kind of remember Magus saying otherwise.

 

[Bones0]

Alright, thanks a lot.

One more question : does stale-move negation affect knockback ? I would logically assume it does, since it affect how much damage is dealt, but I kind of remember Magus saying otherwise.

It affects KB in the sense that they will be at a lower percent and have less KB, but a fresh fsmash will have the same KB as a fully staled fsmash as long as the percent after the hit is the same (Melee uses post-hit % to calculate KB).

 

[Kadano]

Also, hitbubbles with weight-dependent set knockback (Fox’s shine, for example) don’t stale at all because their knockback doesn’t scale with dealt damage.

 

[MookieRah]

I have a couple of questions regarding Mewtwo and his teleport if anyone is willing to test them out for me.

1: How precise do you have to be to perform edge canceled teleports?
Here is an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1dv_GjzcsQ#t=54 - Taj edge cancels on a middle platform and transitions into a nair.

I'm working on this right now and was wondering if anyone would be willing to do some frame by frame testing. I'd appreciate anything I was given, but I'm hoping for some screencaps or gifs showing what are the max and min heights M2 can be in relation to an edge, as well as how close or far away from the edge M2 has to be in order for this technique to work. I'm assuming there isn't much leeway considering that it's fairly difficult to do consistently, but having a visual guide of what works would make it much easier to learn the timings.

2: Ledge Canceled Teleports, not to be confused with the above edge canceled, is when the teleport hits a ledge but still takes M2 onto the stage. It is discussed here: http://smashboards.com/threads/ledge-canceled-teleport.102440/
And you can see a video example of it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFDXv9NBxJc#t=11

Two things regarding this technique:
First, how does this compare to Mewtwo's < 100% get up? Is it actually faster, and if so, how much faster? Would M2 retain any invulnerable frames if it's faster?

Second, if it actually is faster is there a way to perform this consistently? According to the old thread by Airo, this is incredibly really hard to do, but at the same time I don't know if this was ever tested in Debug Mode and analysed at a frame by frame level. I'm wondering if frame by frame analysis would uncover a practical means to perform this trick from the ledge.

Thanks in advance!