Official Ask Anyone Frame Things Thread

[Super]

It’s true. Only inputs that could cause a tech can trigger the tech window. Analog shoulder button presses can never do that, so they are safe to use. Z is technically nothing more than lightest shield + A, so it‘s the same for that.

Yeah so without being unconventional and using Z to L-cancel, the optimal way would be to light press L-cancel with one trigger and tech with the other trigger for best feel? I guess you could use the same trigger although it could feel slightly more awkward.


Also a question I have is how fast is Fox's turnaround utilt from ledgedash, as in how many frames after the ledgedash does it take to get the turnaround utilt first's hit.

 

[Kadano]

Yeah so without being unconventional and using Z to L-cancel, the optimal way would be to light press L-cancel with one trigger and tech with the other trigger for best feel? I guess you could use the same trigger although it could feel slightly more awkward.

It really depends on your preferences. I never use L (even though being left-handed) because using it makes me feel like I lose focus for the control with my thumb. Light-pressing R for the cancels and hard-pressing it for shielding, airdodging etc. feels perfectly fine for me.

Also a question I have is how fast is Fox's turnaround utilt from ledgedash, as in how many frames after the ledgedash does it take to get the turnaround utilt first's hit.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Fox_(SSBM)/Up_tilt#Timing
Turning around for an attack can take as little as one frame, regardless of whether you do a tilt turn or a smash turn. (Only jumping and shielding requires the tilt turn initial part to complete because you are truly turned.)

 

[KuroganeHammer]

i was looking for @ Kadano 's perfect maths thread and cant find it

anyway someone educate me on the rebound flag

what moves in melee have this property? this is important because while it was in and nonfunctional in brawl, i believe it's been brought back for smash 4

Edit: oh it's a marth thread, no wonder i couldn't find it rofl

 

[Kadano]

i was looking for @ Kadano 's perfect maths thread and cant find it

Spoiler

anyway someone educate me on the rebound flag

what moves in melee have this property? this is important because while it was in and nonfunctional in brawl, i believe it's been brought back for smash 4

In Melee, mostly grounded A attacks have this property. There is more to it though. Whether a move is able to go into rebound depends on its hitbox interaction flag, which needs to be 3.

Table by @Magus420, I added in rebound knowledge he later discovered:

Hitbox Interaction
.0 .1 .2 .3 .4 .5 .6 .7 .8 .9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
.C .. .N .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. A. G. WQ .. BE .L .F
CI IN ND DD SS SS ZZ ZZ YY YY XX XX AA GG WW QP BB EL LF FT
2C 00 38 12 05 14 04 4C 00 00 00 00 10 19 00 13 0C 08 01 0B
..............................................^
Length: 2 bits within 1 byte
Range: 0-3
Bits Used:
.....15
| WWWQ QQPP |

This parameter changes what hitboxes the hitbox is able to hit.

0 .Does not hit any hitboxes?
1 .Possibly able to hit something that 0 can't?
2 .Able to hit any hitboxes while on the ground, and projectiles on ground or in air
3 .Able to hit any hitboxes while on the ground, and projectiles on ground or in air. Will go into the rebound animation if it collides with a hitbox thats current damage is less than 9 stronger or weaker than its own damage.

Marth's neutral-B has 0 while his side-B has 1 (except for 3-Down which has 3), but I don't know of any differences regarding what they can hit.

The rebound animation itself has flexible length that seems to depend only on its own current (staled) damage.

Attack|Hitbox ID|damage| ReboundStop | Rebound
Marth jab¹|0|176|20|104
Marth jab²|3|86|20|54
Marth fsmash|3|20|9|17
Marth dsmash|3|16|8|15
Marth fsmash|2|14|7|14
Marth DB3↓|any|12|7|13
Marth dtilt|3|10|6|12
Marth dtilt|0|9|6|11
Marth dtilt|1|8|5|11
Sheik ftilt|any|7|5|10
Yoshi fast ledge attack|any|6|5|9
Sheik fsmash1|any|5|4|9
Sheik jab|any|4|4|8
Sheik jab (slot1 staleness)|any|3.64|4|8
Mario jab|any|3|4|8
Sheik jab (slot1234 staleness)|any|2.8|3|7
Male WF jab|any|2|3|7
Sheik jabloop|any|1|3|7

ReboundStop seems to be the same as attacker hitlag, and is also capped at 20 frames.
Rebound scales slower with the amount of damage. I don’t know the exact formula yet, but this should be enough data to determine it. It seems its length is not capped, so if there was a rebound-able hitbox in this game that dealt 999% damage, its rebound animation would last for almost 10 seconds.

Edit: The formula I came up with is Rebound = 7+([damage]-0.7)*0.555. This is only an approximation, though, not something I managed to pull out of the Melee code.

¹Modified to do 176% electrical damage for testing purposes
²Modified to do 86% damage for testing purposes

 

[KuroganeHammer]

In my defense I was on phone and signatures don't show there ;__;

Which notable grounded moves cannot rebound after clanking? (thanks for responding btw!)

 

[Kadano]

In my defense I was on phone and signatures don't show there ;__;

It’s fine, it was just funny to me seeing it like that.

Here is a gfycat of Marth’s 176 damage jab rebound animation:

I did this with a different, faster method than I usually use. Unfortunately, this causes the frame counter to be off by one – every frame shows the frame number of the previous frame.

Which notable grounded moves cannot rebound after clanking? (thanks for responding btw!)

• Some specials: shine; Marth’s and Roy’s Counter; Jigglypuff’s dash attack; Sheik’s, Captain Falcon’s, Ganondorf’s and Donkey Kong‘s side-B; Pikachu’s and Pichu’s Thunder; Mewtwo’s jab, up smash and back throw; Ness’ third jab; Zelda’s up smash final hit. (There’s probably more, but it’s kind of bothersome to figure them out.)

• Article specials: Illusion and Phantasm; Sheik’s up-B

• All edge-attacks except Yoshi’s.

• Some get-up attacks: (table is complete)

Character|Front get-up attack|Back get-up attack
Captain Falcon||
Falco||
Female Wireframe||
Fox||
Giga Bowser||
Ganondorf||
Jigglypuff||
Male Wireframe||
Sheik||
Samus||
Yoshi||

• Fox’ and Falco’s fsmash.

Source: Toomai’s hitbox collection (http://www.mediafire.com/view/kwbkgsdok1dekd7/SSBM_Hitboxes_(NTSC_1.0)_&_Knockback_1.5k.xlsx)

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Thanks so much Kadano! This has given me a lot of information to mull over!

 

[1ampercent]

May I get some more frame data for Marth's Shield Breaker / Roy's Flare's Blade? This is all I found so far

Time to get to charging: 11 frames
Hit (from release of B): 5-10
Max charge time: 121 frames / 211 frames (Roy)

Would like to know the total and IASA frames for the Neutral B (assuming 0 charge time)

Cheers

 

[Kadano]

May I get some more frame data for Marth's Shield Breaker / Roy's Flare's Blade? This is all I found so far

Time to get to charging: 11 frames
Hit (from release of B): 5-10
Max charge time: 121 frames / 211 frames (Roy)

Would like to know the total and IASA frames for the Neutral B (assuming 0 charge time)

Cheers

Marth: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Marth_(SSBM)/Neutral_special

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[tauKhan]

May I have the full spiel on moonwalking? Like more than what was already posted in this thread. I want to know how many frames it takes to enter the moonwalk. How much end lag I have, if any. What actions I can do during it and when. What happens to my momentum when I do x action on y frame(s). As well as anything else that may be remotely useful/relevant.

First of all, your questions depend a bit on how you define moonwalking. I would define moonwalking to be accelarating backwards during dash. So the time it takes to enter moonwalk by this definition would be the time it takes you to move your stick backward without initiating turn. If you execute common moonwalking methods well, I guess you would start accelerating backward from frame 2-3 onwards, and have full acceleration on something like frame 5-6. When you moonwalk, you are essentially just dashing, so your options are the same as during dash. Consequently the moonwalk length timewise is the same as your characters dash length, and you can initiate another moonwalk during your foxtrot window.

The maximum moonwalking speed and the time at which you actually start moving backward (if at all) depends on three things: Your speed before the dash, your initial dash speed, and applied dash accelaration backward. If you walk before moonwalking to the same direction, your walking speed is basically added to your moonwalk speed at the end. I guess you might lose some momentum due to traction on the 1 frame of turn after the walk, so if your walking speed is very low, it might not add any speed. Also dashing to the same direction before you moonwalk (aka dd moonwalking) doesn't add to your speed with any character, since when you dash backward from dash forward, the turn between the dashes cancels all forward momentum.

I believe that your dash input x-coordinate affects the initial dash speed, I'm not sure though. If that's so, the lighter you input the dash, the faster moonwalk speed you can get since you subtract less speed with the dash.

Here is a good post on character specific dash frame data: http://smashboards.com/threads/2014...nowledge-updated-1-2-14.339520/#post-16153183

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[1MachGO]

Is Doc's dthrow chaingrab on Fox/Falco humanly possible before 100%?

 

[DRGN]

I did this with a different, faster method than I usually use. Unfortunately, this causes the frame counter to be off by one – every frame shows the frame number of the previous frame.

Oh, I've seen this before. Very strange. You know what causes it? It'd be nice if I could prevent it from happening rather than re-rip stuff.

 

[Kadano]

Oh, I've seen this before. Very strange. You know what causes it? It'd be nice if I could prevent it from happening rather than re-rip stuff.

I think it’s a Dolphin bug / quirk, but I‘ve never taken 60 fps footage of playing real-time on my hacked Gamecube with the frame counter activated, so there’s still the possibility of Melee itself being at fault.

 

[Bones0]

How did Fox go so far from the turnip throw at 4:28? A glide toss, perhaps?

 

[Sashimi]

It seems to happen whenever Fox does a normal turnip throw while dashing or running. He has much less momentum during JC turnip throw and crouch > turnip throw.

 

[Bones0]

It seems to happen whenever Fox does a normal turnip throw while dashing or running. He has much less momentum during JC turnip throw and crouch > turnip throw.

So you just jump or crouch before throwing? I didn't know you could even throw after doing those. lol

 

[AGLET]

that was definitely a dash throw though, not a JC throw

 

[Sashimi]

So you just jump or crouch before throwing? I didn't know you could even throw after doing those. lol

Actually you do neither if you want that kind of momentum. Just push A while dashing/running to slide like that. Crouch throwing or Jump Cancel throwing will cut your momentum going into the throw, so you won't slide as far.

 

[Stride]

I made this thread (which is a work in progress that I've heavily neglected) documenting the percentages at which characters are sent into tumble and when crouch cancelling stops working for each of Luigi's attacks: http://smashboards.com/threads/wip-...olds-current-progress-4-31-characters.366826/

However, it somehow didn't occur to me that instead of manually testing this, there's probably a formula or some other tool which can be used to help automate the process of documenting these percentages. Does anyone know of anything like that?

 

[Kadano]

I made this thread (which is a work in progress that I've heavily neglected) documenting the percentages at which characters are sent into tumble and when crouch cancelling stops working for each of Luigi's attacks: http://smashboards.com/threads/wip-...olds-current-progress-4-31-characters.366826/

However, it somehow didn't occur to me that instead of manually testing this, there's probably a formula or some other tool which can be used to help automate the process of documenting these percentages. Does anyone know of anything like that?

http://smashboards.com/threads/tool...n-hitlag-shieldstun-calculation-v1-11.324878/

 

[Stride]

http://smashboards.com/threads/tool...n-hitlag-shieldstun-calculation-v1-11.324878/

Thank you, but I should have been more clear in my original post; how could I use that data to determine when characters are sent into tumble? What knockback value is the threshold for when this occurs?

 

[Kadano]

Thank you, but I should have been more clear in my original post; how could I use that data to determine when characters are sent into tumble? What knockback value is the threshold for when this occurs?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03qCJ_Ikbho

 

[Eddy 007]

Hi; here is the information i have about the Luigi Tornado/Cyclone:
The height gained from the cyclone depends on how many times the player presses B during the startup animation:

• Fewer than 5 presses results in a height loss.
• 5–7 presses will keep Luigi at the same height, though it can still be useful for horizontal recovery.
• 8–10 presses gives half of the maximum height.
• 12–13 presses gives 2/3 of the maximum height.
• 14 or more presses will give the maximum height.

Frame Data:
Total: 79 Frames
Hit: 6-29, 43

My question is: from what "x frame to x frames" should anyone button press to raise the tornado? Is it from 1-60, or 1-43, etc.?
Thanks!

 

[Bones0]

Hi; here is the information i have about the Luigi Tornado/Cyclone:
The height gained from the cyclone depends on how many times the player presses B during the startup animation:

• Fewer than 5 presses results in a height loss.
• 5–7 presses will keep Luigi at the same height, though it can still be useful for horizontal recovery.
• 8–10 presses gives half of the maximum height.
• 12–13 presses gives 2/3 of the maximum height.
• 14 or more presses will give the maximum height.

Frame Data:
Total: 79 Frames
Hit: 6-29, 43

My question is: from what "x frame to x frames" should anyone button press to raise the tornado? Is it from 1-60, or 1-43, etc.?
Thanks!

Idk the window you're asking about unfortunately, but I remember reading Mario's Tornado builds up momentum based on the timing of your presses. So mashing really quick at the beginning and slower at the end will send you higher than vice versa even if it's the same number of presses because you build upward momentum. Hopefully someone can answer your specific question, but assuming Luigi's down-B works the same as Mario's, knowing the window probably won't help you mash any better, and I'm not sure your presses-per-Cyclone are accurate unless they are values based on evenly spaced mashes (which I think is not very realistic).

 

[schmooblidon]

I'm gunna assume his tornado works the same as doc and marios. Mashing after the last hit box does nothing. There is a difference in height from even just 1 mash difference. You must evenly distribute your mashes, as if you don't press b for like 6 or so frames you will lose momentum.

 

[Eddy 007]

Thanks for the response. Yeah, I have always had doubts about that scale (from this thread:http://smashboards.com/threads/the-official-tornado-b-down-down-air-and-taunt-thread.64648/). I asked to DJLO on reddit is the scale was correct, he said yes (http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2b36tp/tornadoes_compared/cj1mv61).

Im asking about that window because: let's assume the scale is right and you need to press 14 times to gain maximum height; if the window for button mashing is 1-60 that would mean you need to do 14 presses per second. BUT if the window was from like 1-43 that would mean you need to have an even faster pressing per second to do the 14 presses. Also, maybe what you need to do for the raising tornado its just 14 pps so if the window is like 1-43 you would need to press less than 14. (The original thread says "times per second"; but the wiki just says "times the player presses B during the startup animation" ignoring the "times per second" even tough the source is the thread of smashboards: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Luigi_Cyclone#In_Super_Smash_Bros._Melee).

Frame data from smashboards about Mario`s Tornado:
Total: 79
Hit: 8-9, 12-13, 15-16, 18-19, 21-22,
24-25, 27-28, 38-39
Last chance to become airborne if
started on the ground: 10
Last chance to get a midair boost: 37

Does this mean that the window for (Mario) buttoon smashing is 1-37? Would that mean Luigi`s window is 1-42?

It would be cool if Kadano / Magus, etc. could test all of this.

 

[schmooblidon]

Check the ptp section I wrote here http://smashboards.com/threads/doc-advanced-tech-frame-data-megathread.378813

I'll check luigis in a min

Edit: it's worth mentioning that before I wrote this there was a tonne of misinformation about doc and marios, so I would ignore that ssbwiki section and assume it works the same as docs. I'll give frame specifics in a bit.

 

[schmooblidon]

It's similar to docs but there are some key differences.
Can act on frame 80. Can buffer a dj on frame 77 with up.
Mashing from frame 1-5 will do nothing, and you move a little downward.
Frame 6-43 is your window to mash. 19 presses for maximum height. Oddly mashing on 6 seems pretty crucial. As if you perfectly mash from 6, you do 19 presses but go higher then if you start from 7 which is also 19 presses. I guess this is because of the initial downward momentum and cancelling it sooner.

So there are two variables that change height with his. How many presses and when you start.

 

[Bones0]

It's similar to docs but there are some key differences.
Can act on frame 80. Can buffer a dj on frame 77 with up.
Mashing from frame 1-5 will do nothing, and you move a little downward.
Frame 6-43 is your window to mash. 19 presses for maximum height. Oddly mashing on 6 seems pretty crucial. As if you perfectly mash from 6, you do 19 presses but go higher then if you start from 7 which is also 19 presses. I guess this is because of the initial downward momentum and cancelling it sooner.

So there are two variables that change height with his. How many presses and when you start.

You should be able to buffer a DJ out of Doc's as well. The control stick has a few frames of buffer in most situations.

 

[schmooblidon]

You should be able to buffer a DJ out of Doc's as well. The control stick has a few frames of buffer in most situations.

Yeah that wasn't supposed to be a difference. I was just copying my notes. Although I did think the numbers could be different, and I couldn't be bothered to check my thread. It's quite interesting that luigi gains more height primarily because he has a slower fallspeed.

 

[Eddy 007]

Your thread is amazing Schmooblidon!
So if i understand the PTP section and what you wrote here, Luigi would look like this:
0 -
1 - Down-B
2 -
3 -
4 -
5 -
6 - B (must mash first by frame 6)
7 -
8 -
9 -
10 -
11 -
12 - B
13 -
14 -
15 -
16 -
17 -
18 - B
19 -
20 -
21 -
22 -
23 -
24 - B
25 -
26 -
27 -
28 -
29 -
30 - B
31 -
32 -
33 -
34 -
35 -
36 - B
37 -
38 -
39 -
40 -
41 -
42 - B
43 - Last hitbox (mashing b on this frame or after will do nothing)
.
.
.
76 -
77 - Can hold Up to buffer a double jump (x/y will not work)
78 -
79 -
80 - Double jump / up-b

In this version Luigi is doing a PTP with just 7 presses, is that the minimum? or can it be 6? Is this even humanly possible?

It would be great (when you have the time) if you did a PTP section like in your doc thread, but with Luigi. That way, the misinformation would be less, through the years people (including myself) would just repeat what that smashboards thread said; so next time someone ask for this (its a very common question with Luigi players), we will link it with the truth.

 

[schmooblidon]

Must mash by frame 6 would be bad wording for luigi. It should be must start mash on frame 6 (optimally) or after. Mashing on his last hitbox does work unlike the others. Mashing on 44 and upwards has no effect.
Kinda depends what you define as minimum. You can do a 6 press and start on frame 6, that will get you to where you started. 7 presses is when you start gaining height.

There are a bunch of variables though, and it needs a lot of testing. I will make a comprehensive guide like I did for doc when I get back to my setup next week

 

[Eddy 007]

Must mash by frame 6 would be bad wording for luigi. It should be must start mash on frame 6 (optimally) or after. Mashing on his last hitbox does work unlike the others. Mashing on 44 and upwards has no effect.
Kinda depends what you define as minimum. You can do a 6 press and start on frame 6, that will get you to where you started. 7 presses is when you start gaining height.

There are a bunch of variables though, and it needs a lot of testing. I will make a comprehensive guide like I did for doc when I get back to my setup next week

Thanks for the corrections. I have more questions but i will wait for the guide.

 

[tauKhan]

@ Kadano

In the melee mechanics video about hitlag you state that hitlag can be inputted on any hitlag frame except the last. However, using pause method it's clear that if a direction is inputted on the hit frame, sdi doesn't happen. (I tested this using two foxes close to each other, pausing and having other pressing to side and other inputting shine. Then I compared it to pausing during a later shine hitlag frame and inputting side then, and the fox moved visibly further away than in the first scenario.)

So is the window to sdi 2 frames less than the amount of hitlag, or can one actually sdi on the last frame of hitlag?

Edit: Oh it's the definition thing again. It's always so confusing, especially when the other person has the different view lol.

 

[Kadano]

@ Kadano

In the melee mechanics video about hitlag you state that hitlag can be inputted on any hitlag frame except the last. However, using pause method it's clear that if a direction is inputted on the hit frame, sdi doesn't happen. (I tested this using two foxes close to each other, pausing and having other pressing to side and other inputting shine. Then I compared it to pausing during a later shine hitlag frame and inputting side then, and the fox moved visibly further away than in the first scenario.)

So is the window to sdi 2 frames less than the amount of hitlag, or can one actually sdi on the last frame of hitlag?

It's a definition thing. I use "on frame 1" to say that "when frame 1 has already been calculated and is currently being output".
So when I write "SDI is possible on frame 1", that means "when the first frame of hitlag has already been calculated, SDI can be used (and takes effect at frame 2)".

To refer to inputs that take place 1 frame before the frame that I mention, I use "at frame 2".
So I would say that SDI can be input *at* frames 2-[last].

 

[the muted smasher]

I've got 2 questions. I've just found out I can pivot after I do a moonwalk into normal dash does the movement current over like will I slide backward during a f-tilt?

Also how many frames till I can't boost grab? As some people like pichu/falcon i am thinking about pressing Z after I try to pivot just because it will cancel their terrible dash attack.

I know it isn't more less laggy but it's a better move

 

[squirrels4ev]

@ Kadano
So I've done quite a bit of digging and I couldn't find the answer to my question, but it was somewhat hard to search for since it's specifically about Link (a common word in posts) and his edge grab (AKA ledge grab, edgegrab, ledgegrab, and CliffCatch animation).

I'm curious about how the CliffCatch animation functions. I understand every character except Link has a CliffCatch animation lasting 7 frames, and that Link has one which lasts for 3. My question is, can Link (or any character) enter CliffCatch if there is already another character in CliffCatch on the same ledge? Basically I want to know if Link can "steal" the ledge if he arrives at the ledge 1, 2, 3, or 4 (with port priority) frames later than another non-Link character.

Sometimes it feels like I get ledgehogs with Link that I wouldn't with other characters but that may just be due to his short hop height and fastfall speed. I can't tell with the naked eye since the frame window is so tight.

 

[Kadano]

@ Kadano
So I've done quite a bit of digging and I couldn't find the answer to my question, but it was somewhat hard to search for since it's specifically about Link (a common word in posts) and his edge grab (AKA ledge grab, edgegrab, ledgegrab, and CliffCatch animation).

I'm curious about how the CliffCatch animation functions. I understand every character except Link has a CliffCatch animation lasting 7 frames, and that Link has one which lasts for 3. My question is, can Link (or any character) enter CliffCatch if there is already another character in CliffCatch on the same ledge? Basically I want to know if Link can "steal" the ledge if he arrives at the ledge 1, 2, 3, or 4 (with port priority) frames later than another non-Link character.

Sometimes it feels like I get ledgehogs with Link that I wouldn't with other characters but that may just be due to his short hop height and fastfall speed. I can't tell with the naked eye since the frame window is so tight.

There is no special property to Link’s ledge grab apart from its shorter animation. If another character has already grabbed the ledge, Link cannot grab it, even if it’s only been 1 frame.