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Official Ask Anyone Frame Things Thread

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tauKhan

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At least you go very far from Z-PSA'd falco's dair. I think the effects stack, I'm not sure though.
 

schmooblidon

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Incredible post Kadano!

So does the Z-PS not have 3 frames of GuardReflect Projectiles? Does it only increase the window because of spacing?

Also what would happen if you buffered Z then pressed shoulder click the first frame? I can imagine the other way around definitely won't work because you dont get GuardReflect from a buffered shoulder click.

I think Wd in Place is likely the universal fastest and probably safest way to start holding A. Although Peach can DJL.
 

tauKhan

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Incredible post Kadano!

So does the Z-PS not have 3 frames of GuardReflect Projectiles? Does it only increase the window because of spacing?

Also what would happen if you buffered Z then pressed shoulder click the first frame? I can imagine the other way around definitely won't work because you dont get GuardReflect from a buffered shoulder click.

I think Wd in Place is likely the universal fastest and probably safest way to start holding A. Although Peach can DJL.
It's completely feasible to play on ground holding a all the time in neutral imo, but it's a lot of work. I practiced it a bit when I played pm, since in pm you could pivot with c-stick if you hold down a.
 

schmooblidon

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You're right I actually didn't even think about letting go and start holding again each time you want to use an a/z move.

Also doesnt seem like buffered-Z to DP works, can't be 100% sure without frame advance though.
 
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FlamingForce

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Wow I'm actually getting decently consistent at that z-ps thing, really cool technique, would removing trigger springs make it easier to hit both z and a trigger on the same frame?
 

schmooblidon

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Wow I'm actually getting decently consistent at that z-ps thing, really cool technique, would removing trigger springs make it easier to hit both z and a trigger on the same frame?
Probably, all preference. Holding the shoulder to just before the click, then holding Y+X+Start for a few seconds, is pretty convenient for this.
 

Kadano

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@ Kadano Kadano Excellent work! And you just got liked by the god himself Magus420 :surprised:.
The dream of a lifetime!


I feel zps could be very useful for chars that have poor shields, like pikachu, dk etc, and the fact that you can ps with smaller shields is huge. I've always felt that if I miss first ps or maybe two, it becomes very hard for the next ones. It also feels useful vs slow projectiles.
I honestly believe that Z-PS will be the solution against Falco’s lasers and, to a lesser degree, spacies’ shield pressure. Z-PSA with Ganondorf against incoming attacks should have a 4-5 frame window most of the time. The CPU PS jab probably will become one of his go-to answers against aggressive approaches, and Pikachu with his jab (and maybe ftilt?) can do the same.

Should we make a separate thread for this?
My current plan is drafting a mega-thread with the preliminary title “Kadano’s visual reference to competitive Melee” and put all of these posts and tables within the first 16 posts of that thread. I think it’s time we get a comprehensive resource that makes the most of the incredible visual portraying power of the blessed develop mode.
You discovered Z-PS, so I’m willing to bow down to your choices regarding how to document this from now on. I’m also open to / interested in working together with you to create the aforementioned mega-thread. I think we have very similar goals and ways of approaching this.

Is the timing for the inputs of the z-ps similar to jc grab or boost grab?
As @ T tauKhan wrote, not really. The only thing I can think of off the top of my head is running shine. For that, you need to input down on the control stick and B at the very same frame as well. By removing the spring from L, maybe additionally disattaching the L trigger from the L pot to make sure to avoid analog shield and decreasing the L DP rubber plate’s resistance, Z-PS should be just as easy to execute as running shine. Apart from holding A,but that’s not difficult. Although I personally feel that having to hold down A makes L more suited for the DP input; pressing A, Z and R at the same time with my right hand has me only holding the controller with the two smallest fingers of my right hand, which doesn’t feel that good and reliable. I always feel like the controller could slip out of my hands any moment.

What about shield pushback? Does Z-PS just factor the normal Powershield pushback or does the lightshield stack onto it?
Thanks, I knew I had left out a couple of things. Well, after seven hours non-stop working on that post through the night, I kind of wanted to have it published before smashboards decides to go into nightly backup mode and have my draft lost, haha. So the post is not complete yet, but I’m working to have it that way soon.
In other words, I don’t know the answer yet, but I suspect the same thing as @ T tauKhan . Will test it today.

So does the Z-PS not have 3 frames of GuardReflect Projectiles? Does it only increase the window because of spacing?
This is correct. It’s still a two-frame window as in that the incoming hitbox needs to hit your PSS on the first two frames of activation, but whenever your disjointed Z-PSS (Z-Powershield sphere) range is larger than the movement speed of the incoming hitbox, there’s a chance of the window increasing by z frames, where z is approximately the disjointed Z-PSS range at a given vector divided by the incoming hitbox’s vector speed. For (near-)stationary hitboxes, the frame window for Z-PSS is effectively as long as the hitbox’s duration, but the same is true with N-PSS except that it’s less likely for the hitbox to connect with the smaller N-PSS than with the huge Z-PSS.

As soon as one person requests this here, I will create some more animations that demonstrate the vector disjoint / speed PSS thing.

Also what would happen if you buffered Z then pressed shoulder click the first frame? I can imagine the other way around definitely won't work because you dont get GuardReflect from a buffered shoulder click.
Yeah, pressing Z even one frame earlier than R-DP (R digital press) always resulted in me entering GuardOn instead of GuardReflect , which, as you implied, does not have powershield properties.

I think Wd in Place is likely the universal fastest and probably safest way to start holding A. Although Peach can DJL.
I think so as well. Z-PS → wavedash (hold A again during LFS (LandingFallSpecial) → Z-PS and so on seems really feasible now.

Wow I'm actually getting decently consistent at that z-ps thing, really cool technique, would removing trigger springs make it easier to hit both z and a trigger on the same frame?
Yes, see my response to Sebovich earlier in this very post.
 
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bandi

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#ChurchOfKadano
Really informative!
Is it possible to hold A whilst dashing and using the new Powershield?

Ps. Pls stop using CD-I Zelda references - they're not funny, although really creepy, haha
 

schmooblidon

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#ChurchOfKadano
Really informative!
Is it possible to hold A whilst dashing and using the new Powershield?

Ps. Pls stop using CD-I Zelda references - they're not funny, although really creepy, haha
Ah yes, you actually can.

If you dash then release the stick to neutral, and press A within the first 4 frames, you will not perform any move. This is pretty great, because you can then start dashdancing with A held down and ready to Z-PS.

You can only do this from your first dash, so you cannot start holding A in the middle of a dash dance, you would have to wavedash or something in that case.

I think this may be the fastest way to perform a Z-PS from nothing.
Quickest being:

1 - Dash
2 - | Window to release Forward and start Holding A
3 - |
4 - |
5 - Z-PS
 
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Salevits

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maybe additionally disattaching the L trigger from the L pot to make sure to avoid analog shield and decreasing the L DP rubber plate’s resistance
Wait how do you do this? What part is the L pot? I have spring removed but the resistance in the full press of L/R is pretty heavy in new controllers, would prefer them to be lighter..

E: Okay i figured it out myself. The resistance is determined by the round rubber part. :)
 
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TheZhuKeeper

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My current plan is drafting a mega-thread with the preliminary title “Kadano’s visual reference to competitive Melee” and put all of these posts and tables within the first 16 posts of that thread. I think it’s time we get a comprehensive resource that makes the most of the incredible visual portraying power of the blessed develop mode.
You discovered Z-PS, so I’m willing to bow down to your choices regarding how to document this from now on. I’m also open to / interested in working together with you to create the aforementioned mega-thread. I think we have very similar goals and ways of approaching this.
Anxiously waiting for this.
 

schmooblidon

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I can't find anything faster then Dash buffering.

DJL is frame 8.
Even tas stuff like Otto cancelled wavedash with Fox is Z-PS on Frame 6.

And whatever the **** this is, is frame 5

 

TheVmann

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In regards to this technique, would it be viable to input a wavedash while still holding the digital L trigger down, then maybe initiate a Z button press as soon as the wavedash has ended?
 

schmooblidon

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In regards to this technique, would it be viable to input a wavedash while still holding the digital L trigger down, then maybe initiate a Z button press as soon as the wavedash has ended?
Won't work, a buffered shoulder press does not initiate GuardReflect (powershield).

Guys something really weird is happening when I do this with Yoshi. He turns tangible and there is a tiny green dot in the middle of him, can't tell what kind of shield it is.



I think it's normal shield, blue+yellow=green?

Not sure what the timing on this is, no dolphin.

Edit:
I managed to reflect a laser, but it may of been from the first frame. I think he is invincible with normal powershield on frame 1, then frame 2-6 like the above pic.

edit2:
Figured out the timing. Frame 1 - Lightshield (can use shoulder) Frame 2 - Fullshield

Was this known before? It must of been, yet I've never seen it before.
 
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TheVmann

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Has anyone discussed trigger tricking for this technique? Aka, turning off analog on the button? Or is that banned in tournament? lol
 

Massive

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Wait how do you do this? What part is the L pot? I have spring removed but the resistance in the full press of L/R is pretty heavy in new controllers, would prefer them to be lighter..
Inside the controller there's a little slider that your analog triggers slide over and attach to, that's the potentiometer (pot).

The easiest way to do this is to remove the trigger's ability to analog shield is to push the slider to the bottom and then either remove the tab that hooks over it or the slider tab itself.

Alternatively you can find the resistance for the potentiometer at the bottom and remove/replace it with a resistor of equivalent value.

ALSO:
This seems like a good excuse to renew interest in making a melee fightstick/allowing controller mods in tourneys. Limiting the maximum ability of or injuring our players (poor Hax) due to technically surmountable limits in our input methods is something we as a community can, and I would argue should, move past.
 
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PerhapsMan

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Won't work, a buffered shoulder press does not initiate GuardReflect (powershield).

Guys something really weird is happening when I do this with Yoshi. He turns tangible and there is a tiny green dot in the middle of him, can't tell what kind of shield it is.



I think it's normal shield, blue+yellow=green?

Not sure what the timing on this is, no dolphin.

Edit:
I managed to reflect a laser, but it may of been from the first frame. I think he is invincible with normal powershield on frame 1, then frame 2-6 like the above pic.

edit2:
Figured out the timing. Frame 1 - Lightshield (can use shoulder) Frame 2 - Fullshield

Was this known before? It must of been, yet I've never seen it before.

Yeah, this is known by Yoshi players. It's the reason we trigger trick our controllers. Parrying only works properly with a frame 1 digital press.
 
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schmooblidon

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Yeah, this is known by Yoshi players. It's the reason we trigger trick our controllers. Parrying only works properly with a frame 1 digital press.
Damn that's a bummer. Do you know why this happens, or is it just an unfortunate overlooked bug?
 

FlamingForce

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Would the IC's get a big ZPS windows because of the overlap in their moves? Like if Sopo pulls his shield up a tad too soon would nana be able to do it?

I guess what I'm asking is would the ic's shield game change in any significant way using this? I can't think of a good way to test this.
 
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Sebovich

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Hmm, takes a while to get into the habit of holding the a-button beforehand whenever you"might" need to shield, but I definately see great potential in this!
 

Stride

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I feel like you should be able to do this while holding the c-stick instead of A if you want.
When you say "feel like", do you mean you want it to work like that or that you believe it already works like that?

You can't do it with the C-stick because the C-stick doesn't register as an A button input. The reason the technique works is because the Z button is just a macro for a light analogue trigger input and a simultaneous A button input. If you're holding down the A button then the Z button only inputs a lightshield (since it can't input A while it's already being input from you holding the A button down); holding the C-stick in a direction doesn't prevent the Z button from inputting a grab so you can't use it to get an instant light shield with the Z button.
 
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Deidd

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Oh dang, this is pretty neat
 

PerhapsMan

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Damn that's a bummer. Do you know why this happens, or is it just an unfortunate overlooked bug?
I'm not sure why (though I haven't spent a ton of time trying to figure it out). There are a lot of weird things about Yoshi that seem like oversights, like Yoshi not being able to buffer spotdodges.
 

Stratocaster

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It's a shame that the c-stick doesn't work instead because it doesn't register as a dash attack when dashing so it's easy to implement and you can use it to ASDI while moving. Now I have to choose between ASDI down or Z-PS, but I guess Z-PS is mostly just anti-Falco so...

This technique gives hope to Falcon who struggles a lot vs Falco. It seems like it could make a big difference. I bet if you dash away and Z-PS you can make a large window to reflect the laser regardless of height. PSing as it is had too much of a flaw because with only about 1 frame window even a really good player couldn't do it more than 70% of the time, and if you miss you get hit or stuck in shield vs Falco (which is really bad). I don't think it was worth that risk before, but this... changes everything.

I'm really glad that the PSA has the light shield hitstun because if it didn't his would be an OP defensive option which would ruin the game. Instead it's just anti-projectiles which is awesome.

If this get's implemented widely Falco may drop down the tier list considerably. If people can PS his lasers then he'll have to shoot high and duck under the return or shoot low and jump over it. Falcos could learn to PS it back though and then what? If we start bouncing lasers back and forth the meta is gonna be sick! Each bounce is half power though.

One thing to consider is if you get hit by a laser the hitlag is a good time to press A so that you can Z-PS the next one back. I'm so excited to get home and try this out!
 

hectohertz

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just wanna point out, you can ledgedash, hold A during the airdodge or airdodge-lag, then ZPS. while intangible.

i don't know why exactly you'd want to do this, but just the thought of a fully intangible sheik with a giant PS bubble is making me salivate
 

GspotMicrostock

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I saw someone post wondering if you could z shield without holding A and that got me screwin about a bit. I found you could hold a and use the c-stick to automatically do a charged smash attack which seems useful and safe in the event of attacking someone who is prone ( only thing I can think of is a jiggly who missed their rest shot ) I assume this is known.

since the z shield seems like hot new news something i did have happen seems like it might be sorta new and id like someone to verify if im wrong here. I was using samus and dropped a bomb on the ground and hit z while trying to but failing a super wavedash and i shielded. it seemed as big as a Z PS but I dont wanna jump the gun and say it is the thing i think it was a lightshield. It was hard to replicate and I found it easier to just hold down b while i hit the ground and as soon as I hit the ground hit z. also i tried to DP with the z button and that also seemed to work. So yeah I think you can do this without holding A but it is kind of slow and inconvenient I have to check if it works for other characters

ok I think i was able to do it by over b'ing with jigglypuff and down b'ing with the ice climbers but they seemed more likely to grab instead of shield. it would be great if someone with actualy knowledge checked this out to see if im not doing something remarkably normal
 
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Smish

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems pretty situational considering you'd have to already have the A button held down. If I'm understanding this correctly, you wouldn't be able to do this out of a dash or anything

edit: nvm lol. internet crashed and this didn't get posted until way later
 
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GspotMicrostock

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems pretty situational considering you'd have to already have the A button held down. If I'm understanding this correctly, you wouldn't be able to do this out of a dash or anything
I think one dude was saying you can do it out of a wavedash. very lazy of me to not read thru and look it was on this page too hahahahah.


it was schmooblidon and I think him and someone else was saying peach could do it faster somehow
 
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