Official 2010-2011 Super Smash Bros. Melee MBR Tier List

[Laijin]

yeah, sorry, you're right. i just assume every post you make is about young link ._.

lol theres a time and place for everything and right now we're discussing different opinions on how the tier list should be done

 

[SDC]

Hbox posted something on my thread that blew my mind.

the list is temporary, don't worry.

I am so confyoosed

 

[Deleted member]

This.
I feel like the smash community is literally less intelligent than most other communities because we can't figure this out. Every other fighting game community in the world uses match ups to determine tiers. It makes the most sense and they do change with the meta game.

So why are we so different? I don't get it

A tier list is structured such that the higher tier a character is, the more that character should be winning. We correlate winning with success and rank characters accordingly. Almost immediately you can see that match-ups are a strong indicator of success, but not as strong of an indicator as is raw tournament performance. If we really value a good accurate output, we need a solid choice for an input variable. A MU chart isn't the ideal X value here.

For example, let's analyze the common example of Sheik. First, we need to decide what her MU chart looks like. Sheik is commonly ranked very, very high on any given MU chart, to be general for the sake of the example. This would lead to her having a placement as a top tier. But wait, Sheiks historically have problems against Fox and Falco, right? How do we assign weight to those characters? At any given tournament, Fox/Falco could be upwards of 25% of the characters played. Maybe it's a lot lower on any given day. How do we weigh this into our MU chart? What if the Sheik players are bad? Amsah aside, I think it's fair to say that Sheik won't be winning any major tournaments any time soon. So why is she so high? How much do we really value her ability to beat DK? Does she have trouble against Ice Climbers? Will you fight either in tournament? How often? Even if we could answer these completely arbitrary and subjective questions, it still doesn't tell us how good Sheik is for tournaments.

You know what does answer how good Sheik is for tournaments? Tournament results. The results show us what characters are winning and to what degree. Under the premise that players are playing to win, we assume that those players will pick whatever characters they feel they have the best chance to win with. Right now, players overall seem to think that fox falco and jigglypuff will be their best shot at winning, because those characters are being used, and those characters are winning tournaments. This is beautiful because we can just ignore player talent completely. All the naysayers preaching "falco and sheik are equal" have to deal with evidence of a whole slew of intimidating falco players to only a handful of mediocre sheik players at the current moment. If anything, the false correlation of match-ups and tournament viability only moves to make our tier list weaker in that it will fail to accurately dictate which characters will perform better than others.

edit: for the sake of clarity, this is the definition of the tier list as I proposed it to the MBR:

A tier list is a list of characters ranked best to worst in their likelihood to perform well in a tournament setting in the near future based on recent, relevant tournament results. We then separate characters at statistically significant gaps to be grouped with their relative equals, and those groupings are called "tiers". A tier list is, in essence, a "prediction" list as to how any given character will fare in a competitive setting. We naturally assume top level of play.

 

[TheGoat]

This.
I feel like the smash community is literally less intelligent than most other communities because we can't figure this out. Every other fighting game community in the world uses match ups to determine tiers. It makes the most sense and they do change with the meta game.

So why are we so different? I don't get it

While I agree that match ups certainly need to be incorporated into building a tier list, keep in mind that it is largely theoretical. The reason people make such heavy decisions based off of tournament placings is because it's the closest thing we have to objectivity; it's the actual results that the characters have achieved.

The tier list is literally this:

"lol oh man player X is currently absolutely ****** with character Y. Therefore character Y is better than character A B and C. Lets bump him up on the tier list despite the fact that character Y actually still sucks and the only player thats ****** with character Y is player X. Oh wait..doesn't that just mean that player X is better than everyone else and not the character? No no no..that can't be true. It makes too much sense. "

This is how I see the tier list being made lol

Well for example, I strongly advocate mewtwo's placement above younglink. According to the matchup chart, yl does considerably better. But seeing how well Taj has placed in tournaments with m2 has convinced me otherwise. The tournament results he received aren't theoretical, they are physical evidence that m2 does better in competitive play, and that is what the tier list is made for. This doesn't mean m2 is a **** character just because of Taj, it just proves that in the current metagame, he is better than other characters that don't place as well in tournaments. Also it does not matter if only one person is doing very well with a character; the fact that the character has been performing so well still stands.

Also good post Umbreon, I think you summed it up very well.

 

[Mew2King]

Ummm what? Excuse me, but Toad most CERTAINLY has a faster Boost Start at the begining of the match than Peach/Yoshi do. I know that as a fact, which is why I don't see why he wouldn't be the best character for Time Trials.

Yoshi and Peach were the same weight I thought? Are you sure Yoshi is heavier in that game?

And I thought Wario was better than Mario/Luigi in almost every way? Isn't both his weight and his acceleration better?

how sure are you of your statements?

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

Jiggs is top tier? Hmm idk I guess

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

puff isn't better than mindgames.

 

[OverLord]

I agree with Hax

 

[P. O. F.]

has fox ever been in his own tier?

why don't you explain why fox should have his own tier.

I actually worded my response wrong, my bad. What I meant was is that Fox should be Top. Without question. Should I go into detail why? Ok. Fox has been the undisputed best for years ever since we all figured out that Fox beats Sheik....who was the previous beyond dominant character until we found a counter and someone who could beat her......Fox. Fox definitely deserves his own tier and if not....his own tier with Falco.....like they used to be.

Fox has the whole package.

Good Recovery? Check.
Decent Weight? Check.
Amazing aerials? Check.
Best pressure? Check.
Camping? Check.
Fastest Move In The Game that is cancelable? Check?
Stupid Hitboxes? CHECK (Reverse f tilt edge guards from lucky and alex 19)
Best overall stage reliability? Check.
Least Amount of bad match ups in the entire game? Check.
Quick Gimps? Check.
Amazing Throw game? Check.

Should I go on?

Falco is definitely second best and is not "tied" with jigs. Having the three of them tied is like......well....this is the translation: "Guys, we don't want to create havoc when people read this."

Saying that Jigglypuff is third best because of two people is absolutely ********. How many people out there actually play Jigs and can beat Marth? lol. Not too many. Forget that, how many people actually play Jigs? This tier list screams "___ is amazing so Jigglypuff is the best now."

I'm not saying that Jigglypuff does not deserve to be moved up. She definitely has proven that she needs to rise by the bare minimum of 2-3 spots. I think it looks better like this

Fox
Falco
Marth
Jigs
Sheik
Falcon
Peach


This community really has little to no idea how to assemble and formulate a tier list. Honestly, I'm not even trying to be rude but it is so ****ing true.

Lets take a look at the last previous tier list and then take a look at what we have now. It's so obvious this thing is strictly made on TOURNAMENTS.

Look at these characters on this tier list VS last tier list:

Ganon
Mario
Pikachu
Jigglypuff
Falcon

All of these characters were bumped up higher on the tier list EXCEPT FALCON. Lets all think for a second and take a wild guess why. Here, I will help you.

"zomg. KAGE is tooooo good! Ganons better than Doc now! Move him up one spot." "Kage BEAATT MANGO at ROM" (One kids amazing with Ganon. Hes definitely a great character)

"Holy crap. MaNg0 is good with Mario. We must be lookin at mario the wrong way guys. Mario is definitely good." (lol, what? )

"AXE beat Jman at Genesis guys! Heeeesssss the best ever!" (pikachu was bumped)

"Dude, these two kids are amazing with jigs. Shes top tier." (jumped a whole lot thanks to two people)


"Taj got better with mewtwo!!! he beats foxes" (M2K said himself and I agree, no one knows how to play M2.) If you ask Taj yourself he will tell you that Mewtwo sucks.

Well what do you know? Mewtwo got better too! This **** is a joke.


Get the picture? Every single character that has been bumped is because of "tournaments." In the grand scheme of this there is absolutely 100% nothing wrong with looking to tournaments for help when assembling a valid tier list. There is NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. But when you take all of your points and look toward tournaments allllll the time it looks really lazy and ********. As I stated earlier that would be like saying Ryu is the best in SSF4 right now. **** E Honda and Guile, Ryus the best because the best player in the world is Daigo with Ryu. I mean we are doing that with MaNg0 and Hbox. Why aren't other gaming communities doing this? Maybe because you all have no idea how to formulate and create a tier list?


I'm not saying I know more about this game than anyone in here or that my opinion is 100% right but I am saying that this and previous tier lists are 100% pretty much based on tournaments and I think that is fairly obvious. Anytime I ever talk to anyone about the meta game in Smash all I hear is "well, blah blah blah beat XXXX in tournament." Cool, so that means they're top tier dude? So theoretically if Mewtwoking started to play Doctor Mario and was winning again in tournaments consistently he'd be better than Falco prolly, right? He IS WINNING TOURNAMENTS.

You guys are missing out on STAGES/COUNTER PICKS, OPINIONS OTHER THAN TWO PEOPLE, GENERAL MATCH UP THOUGHTS/VALID DISCUSSION, AND GENERAL THEORY. I feel like we/I can't have valid discussion with any of you anymore because 90% of you are clueless as to how a competitive gaming community should be organized/run in terms of basic common sense stuff.


Like I said before, I am not saying that looking at tournaments is wrong, I'm saying that there are other things to look at. At least when the Brawl Back Room makes their tier list....everyone agrees on it and promotes it. I do not see this with this tier list.

A tier list IMO should be based off of match ups based purely on the current metagame at a general high play level. NOT based off the performance of 1 or 2 players.

These two things seem to get mixed up quite a bit in this community. x__x

Maybe the tier list could be based off of match-ups like in every other fighting game.
Oh, wait, we're too stupid and haven't analyzed all of the match-ups enough. ****.

This.
I feel like the smash community is literally less intelligent than most other communities because we can't figure this out. Every other fighting game community in the world uses match ups to determine tiers. It makes the most sense and they do change with the meta game.

So why are we so different? I don't get it

im gonna have to agree with SB and Laijin

*Claps With A Smile On His Face* (Wants to give these guys a big hug)

Finally, some people who understand the concept of Tiers.

A tier list is structured such that the higher tier a character is, the more that character should be winning. We correlate winning with success and rank characters accordingly. Almost immediately you can see that match-ups are a strong indicator of success, but not as strong of an indicator as is raw tournament performance. If we really value a good accurate output, we need a solid choice for an input variable. A MU chart isn't the ideal X value here.

For example, let's analyze the common example of Sheik. First, we need to decide what her MU chart looks like. Sheik is commonly ranked very, very high on any given MU chart, to be general for the sake of the example. This would lead to her having a placement as a top tier. But wait, Sheiks historically have problems against Fox and Falco, right? How do we assign weight to those characters? At any given tournament, Fox/Falco could be upwards of 25% of the characters played. Maybe it's a lot lower on any given day. How do we weigh this into our MU chart? What if the Sheik players are bad? Amsah aside, I think it's fair to say that Sheik won't be winning any major tournaments any time soon. So why is she so high? How much do we really value her ability to beat DK? Does she have trouble against Ice Climbers? Will you fight either in tournament? How often? Even if we could answer these completely arbitrary and subjective questions, it still doesn't tell us how good Sheik is for tournaments.

You know what does answer how good Sheik is for tournaments? Tournament results.

There is so much wrong in this post that it hurts my eyes.

How could you formulate a tier list for Mario, GAW, Zelda, YL, ETC than? "How many people are playing that character" should have little to no affect on formulating a tier list. That is purely childish. Notice how NO ONE really disagrees with the mid to bottom part of the tier list? It's because that aspect HAS TO be based on opinion, thought, compilation from good players and TRY to get tournament results. That is how things generally should be done with some more weight for tournaments obviously for top level players who are playing the game. But let me say this and highlight it, Not Entirely.

Saying that Marth is bad now is really stupid. "People don't play him as much though." Ok, so because people don't play him this makes him BAD? Not entirely. How many people play Jigs dude? not many aside from darc, hbox, mango. We have about the same amount of good Marths in theory. (IB, M2K, Strawhat, Adam) So because they beat people in tournaments that makes a character good???

Did you ever stop and think about the PLAYER and not the CHARACTER?

MaNg0 with Mario is a great example to this. He wins with MARIO so that should have less weight on just exactly how good Jigs is. Hes obviously 10X better and smarter than everyone so his character should have little affect on us making a tier list.



This community is hilarious.

 

[Sox]

seriously, can someone make a tier list using match ups and compare it to this? I don't see why tournament results should be that big of a factor in determining who is the best in the game

****it. POF kinda beat me to it. I don't like much of his post, but ^^

 

[Dax]

mewtwo has taj and iori.
young link has nobody and never has.

stop johning

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSSt1kYnuJk

 

[Jim Morrison]

I actually worded my response wrong, my bad. What I meant was is that Fox should be Top. Without question. Should I go into detail why? Ok. Fox has been the undisputed best for years ever since we all figured out that Fox beats Sheik....who was the previous beyond dominant character until we found a counter and someone who could beat her......Fox. Fox definitely deserves his own tier and if not....his own tier with Falco.....like they used to be.

Fox has the whole package.

Good Recovery? Check.
Decent Weight? Check.
Amazing aerials? Check.
Best pressure? Check.
Camping? Check.
Fastest Move In The Game that is cancelable? Check?
Stupid Hitboxes? CHECK (Reverse f tilt edge guards from lucky and alex 19)
Best overall stage reliability? Check.
Least Amount of bad match ups in the entire game? Check.
Quick Gimps? Check.
Amazing Throw game? Check.

Should I go on?

Falco is definitely second best and is not "tied" with jigs. Having the three of them tied is like......well....this is the translation: "Guys, we don't want to create havoc when people read this."

Saying that Jigglypuff is third best because of two people is absolutely ********. How many people out there actually play Jigs and can beat Marth? lol. Not too many. Forget that, how many people actually play Jigs? This tier list screams "___ is amazing so Jigglypuff is the best now."

I'm not saying that Jigglypuff does not deserve to be moved up. She definitely has proven that she needs to rise by the bare minimum of 2-3 spots. I think it looks better like this

Fox
Falco
Marth
Jigs
Sheik
Falcon
Peach


This community really has little to no idea how to assemble and formulate a tier list. Honestly, I'm not even trying to be rude but it is so ****ing true.

Lets take a look at the last previous tier list and then take a look at what we have now. It's so obvious this thing is strictly made on TOURNAMENTS.

Look at these characters on this tier list VS last tier list:

Ganon
Mario
Pikachu
Jigglypuff
Falcon

All of these characters were bumped up higher on the tier list EXCEPT FALCON. Lets all think for a second and take a wild guess why. Here, I will help you.

"zomg. KAGE is tooooo good! Ganons better than Doc now! Move him up one spot." "Kage BEAATT MANGO at ROM" (One kids amazing with Ganon. Hes definitely a great character)

"Holy crap. MaNg0 is good with Mario. We must be lookin at mario the wrong way guys. Mario is definitely good." (lol, what? )

"AXE beat Jman at Genesis guys! Heeeesssss the best ever!" (pikachu was bumped)

"Dude, these two kids are amazing with jigs. Shes top tier." (jumped a whole lot thanks to two people)


"Taj got better with mewtwo!!! he beats foxes" (M2K said himself and I agree, no one knows how to play M2.) If you ask Taj yourself he will tell you that Mewtwo sucks.

Well what do you know? Mewtwo got better too! This **** is a joke.


Get the picture? Every single character that has been bumped is because of "tournaments." In the grand scheme of this there is absolutely 100% nothing wrong with looking to tournaments for help when assembling a valid tier list. There is NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. But when you take all of your points and look toward tournaments allllll the time it looks really lazy and ********. As I stated earlier that would be like saying Ryu is the best in SSF4 right now. **** E Honda and Guile, Ryus the best because the best player in the world is Daigo with Ryu. I mean we are doing that with MaNg0 and Hbox. Why aren't other gaming communities doing this? Maybe because you all have no idea how to formulate and create a tier list?


I'm not saying I know more about this game than anyone in here or that my opinion is 100% right but I am saying that this and previous tier lists are 100% pretty much based on tournaments and I think that is fairly obvious. Anytime I ever talk to anyone about the meta game in Smash all I hear is "well, blah blah blah beat XXXX in tournament." Cool, so that means they're top tier dude? So theoretically if Mewtwoking started to play Doctor Mario and was winning again in tournaments consistently he'd be better than Falco prolly, right? He IS WINNING TOURNAMENTS.

You guys are missing out on STAGES/COUNTER PICKS, OPINIONS OTHER THAN TWO PEOPLE, GENERAL MATCH UP THOUGHTS/VALID DISCUSSION, AND GENERAL THEORY. I feel like we/I can't have valid discussion with any of you anymore because 90% of you are clueless as to how a competitive gaming community should be organized/run in terms of basic common sense stuff.


Like I said before, I am not saying that looking at tournaments is wrong, I'm saying that there are other things to look at. At least when the Brawl Back Room makes their tier list....everyone agrees on it and promotes it. I do not see this with this tier list.









*Claps With A Smile On His Face* (Wants to give these guys a big hug)

Finally, some people who understand the concept of Tiers.




There is so much wrong in this post that it hurts my eyes.

How could you formulate a tier list for Mario, GAW, Zelda, YL, ETC than? "How many people are playing that character" should have little to no affect on formulating a tier list. That is purely childish. Notice how NO ONE really disagrees with the mid to bottom part of the tier list? It's because that aspect HAS TO be based on opinion, thought, compilation from good players and TRY to get tournament results. That is how things generally should be done with some more weight for tournaments obviously for top level players who are playing the game. But let me say this and highlight it, Not Entirely.

Saying that Marth is bad now is really stupid. "People don't play him as much though." Ok, so because people don't play him this makes him BAD? Not entirely. How many people play Jigs dude? not many aside from darc, hbox, mango. We have about the same amount of good Marths in theory. (IB, M2K, Strawhat, Adam) So because they beat people in tournaments that makes a character good???

Did you ever stop and think about the PLAYER and not the CHARACTER?

MaNg0 with Mario is a great example to this. He wins with MARIO so that should have less weight on just exactly how good Jigs is. Hes obviously 10X better and smarter than everyone so his character should have little affect on us making a tier list.



This community is hilarious.

 

[BunBun]

FYI (7pages back) Japan isn't FD only anymore.

 

[Ace55]

"zomg. KAGE is tooooo good! Ganons better than Doc now! Move him up one spot." "Kage BEAATT MANGO at ROM" (One kids amazing with Ganon. Hes definitely a great character)

Kage is like 24 lol, and Linguini places as well as him (if not better).

This community is hilarious.

So is your logic

FYI (7pages back) Japan isn't FD only anymore.

According to a dutchie who just came back from a year of living there it actually is FD only. Where did you get your info from?

 

[Winston]

I agree it should be based on match-ups, but for some reason I dont think the value system we use is what should determine a tier list.

If I ask someone "how good" a character is, i'm not asking for the quantitative values of each match-up mathematically weighted against each other until equilibrium.


edit- thats not to say i dont like the match-up chart. i like it for what it is... not a tier list.

sorry if I missed it, but what's your definition of "how good" a character is then?

there's no way you can analyze how "good" a character is in a vacuum. The only way that it makes sense is to analyze the character's interactions with other characters, i.e. matchups.

 

[4 Aces]

I think Roy's decent.

Like, Negligible tier and decent for fun matches

 

[P. O. F.]

Thanks for conveying my point of how immature this community is. Something is too long so you don't read it? You must love reading books.

I think Roy's decent.

Like, Negligible tier and decent for fun matches

I think he is underrated. Hes decent against anyone who is not floaty. He gets ***** by Peach and Jigs so hard. I dont think hes too bad VS Falcon, Ganon, DK, and Fox.

 

[Brookman]

Thanks for conveying my point of how immature this community is. Something is too long so you don't read it? You must love reading books..

The difference between books and whatever you're posting lay in the fact that many books have valuable information in them. Don't attack the maturity of the community on the message boards, you're just getting trolled.

 

[NJzFinest]

Carl

Jason

my tier list was
1)toad (for racing, not as great for battle mode though
2)yoshi/peach (if they are the same....)
4) Wario (better than all the chars below him and pretty heavy to boot. There's no reason to use mario or luigi when you can use wario with his superior weight and acceleration)

big gap of nothing

5)bowser then DK
7) mario then luigi (same stuff but marios' heavier.. if there's offroad stuff that's different then i stand corrected)

"Various tests have shown that the lightweight players Peach, Toad, and Yoshi perform exactly the same; who you use is a matter of preference. Mario and Luigi are a bit slower, followed by Wario, then Donkey Kong and Bowser"

All heavyweights are worthless in this game, this is quoted from the mk64 WR site.

Ummm what? Excuse me, but Toad most CERTAINLY has a faster Boost Start at the begining of the match than Peach/Yoshi do. I know that as a fact, which is why I don't see why he wouldn't be the best character for Time Trials.

Many time trials include Yoshi being used instead. Check out the one Kalimari Desert and you'll see why Yoshi is preferred. His offroad, heavier weight, + equal speed as Toad makes him the better choice overall. Everything else is just people liking Toad, if anything.
Honestly, I never heard anything about the Boost Start thing, but Yoshi has helped me make money of this game, so it's whatever lol.

And I thought Wario was better than Mario/Luigi in almost every way? Isn't both his weight and his acceleration better?

His acc is worse I think.

how sure are you of your statements?

I think he copy pasted from gamespot forums lol

If you were to lurk the mk64 site and forums, I think the tier list would be:

Top:
Yoshi
Peach/Toad (Peach def better in vs)

Mid:
Luigi
Mario

Wario:
Wario

Bottom:
Bowser/DK (Bowser = better turning)

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Guys. Mario Kart. Take it to Mario Universe or something.

 

[KAOSTAR]

POF-mewtwo was 3rd from the bottom and previously dead last.

are you saying his placement is wrong currently and he should be considered the worst character again?

 

[P. O. F.]

Jason

"Various tests have shown that the lightweight players Peach, Toad, and Yoshi perform exactly the same; who you use is a matter of preference. Mario and Luigi are a bit slower, followed by Wario, then Donkey Kong and Bowser"

All heavyweights are worthless in this game, this is quoted from the mk64 WR site.

Many time trials include Yoshi being used instead. Check out the one Kalimari Desert and you'll see why Yoshi is preferred. His offroad, heavier weight, + equal speed as Toad makes him the better choice overall. Everything else is just people liking Toad, if anything.
Honestly, I never heard anything about the Boost Start thing, but Yoshi has helped me make money of this game, so it's whatever lol.

His acc is worse I think.

I think he copy pasted from gamespot forums lol

If you were to lurk the mk64 site and forums, I think the tier list would be:

Top:
Yoshi
Peach/Toad (Peach def better in vs)

Mid:
Luigi
Mario

Wario:
Wario

Bottom:
Bowser/DK (Bowser = better turning)

LOL. <3 you guys.

Guys. Mario Kart. Take it to Mario Universe or something.

LOl. Smashboards.

POF-mewtwo was 3rd from the bottom and previously dead last.

are you saying his placement is wrong currently and he should be considered the worst character again?

No, I think Mewtwo has always been underrated but to make a jump from 24th to 18th because of one guy is pretty crazy IMO. I would say going up 2-3 spots is more respectable. Don't you?

There are minimal things about this tier list that really make sense to me. Pichu going up-Definitely liked that, always thought he was never the worst and a lot of people agree with this. Kirby going down-So true. Hes horrible and has no combos, is light, predictable recovery, etc. Ness as second worst. Duh.

Honestly, I think

Fox
Falco
Marth
Jigs
Sheik

makes the most sense. I'm not even trying to ride Marth hardcore. I'm honestly saying that I still think Marth is highly tourney viable but people aren't playing him because:

A-He's not a spacie/someone you can practice w on your own time. (why do you think their meta games progressed so much faster?)

B-There is no one to watch really at high level play to learn from so people don't want to put the time into him. (its so much easier to just watch zhu, m2k, mang0, and hbox, and mimic them now)

Am I wrong/inaccurate with this? I think I'm barking up something here.



Edit: Why did Luigi go DOWN? He's always been a pretty decent character. Wait, I get it. No one plays him in tournaments anymore so he must be bad at this current point?

maybe you should all look at this? http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2008/oct/17/street-fighter-4-tiers-character-rankings/

Pretty sure most fighting games assemble tier lists based on MATCH UPS and not tournament results.

 

[Merkuri]

Edit: Why did Luigi go DOWN? He's always been a pretty decent character. Wait, I get it. No one plays him in tournaments anymore so he must be bad at this current point?

Good point. I think if Ka Master was still active then Luigi would have gone up instead of down.

 

[Stevo]

it's not so much that he went down, more like, others went up

 

[BunBun]

Kage is like 24 lol, and Linguini places as well as him (if not better).



So is your logic



According to a dutchie who just came back from a year of living there it actually is FD only. Where did you get your info from?

Playing smash in Tokyo last month.

Some areas still do FD only ( lol poor toph), but after Apex, even those areas are moving things around a bit.

 

[Deleted member]

POF I'm really sad that you edited out the part of your post quoting me. I read it before class and lusted after ripping you apart the entire class only to come back and see that you deleted it.

 

[Winston]

Good point. I think if Ka Master was still active then Luigi would have gone up instead of down.

well, since that Umbreon came out and said the tier list was based heavily on tournament results, this is true.

From a matchups view I think it's still pretty unclear whether Luigi is better than Mario/Pikachu or not. Their matchups are very similar.

I do think he's better than DK but DK is so underrepresented that it's hard to say.

 

[P. O. F.]

Umbreon-

My computer bugged out or something. I had my power cut last night and I was responding to it and when it came back I forgot to requote what you said.



It really doesn't matter what anyone says or does anymore to be honest. lol.

the tier list is made up of this:

-How many people play a character
-Tournament results

There is so much wrong with this and all of you should know that to be true. Match up Charts do not account for 100%.....but neither do Tournament Results. Which at this point it is obvious that is what the Smash Scene has always done......just tournament results.

I actually LOVE how the Smash 64 tier list is made up. It's genius. Everyone who I have ever talked to about Smash 64 has valid points saying why Mario went up and Ness went down so much. Also, saying as to why Fox is better than Kirby now. None of this "Taj plays amazing with mewtwo so lets bump him six spots" bull crap.

With all do respect, the Brawl tier list makes much more sense. Not saying I LIKE BRAWL but I am saying that the BBR members and the people within each specific character board discuss their match ups intelligently. Also, all the BBR members support and emphasize each tier list.

 

[Pr0jecT]

IC's are better than Falcon, discuss.

 

[Surreal]

King's post was all that was needed for this thread. Seriously. Make one tier list for tournament results, and one for matchups. Even then though both will be unnecessary and inaccurate ways of saying who you would be best off using.

One thing that irks me about this tier list is that it makes it super specific with all the tiers, but then makes it super vague by saying they're all basically equal within the tier (and making equals within equals is even dumber aka Samus/Ganon). Instead of a few tiers with exact placings (this character is 5th best, this one is 9th best, etc), we now have a bunch of tiers with iffy placings.

 

[JPOBS]

i second the notion that its stupid that we now have a bunch of tiers, but next to 0 differentiation within the tier. Just comes across as lazy on the mbr's half.

like seriously, at the very least, mid tier and up should be strickly ordered, a supposed tie in the top 3 is stupid, this game isnt that balanced. we have more than enough data to differentiate fox/falco/puff.

 

[n1000]

Fox should be Top. Without question.

A tier list is structured such that the higher tier a character is, the more that character should be winning. We correlate winning with success and rank characters accordingly. Almost immediately you can see that match-ups are a strong indicator of success, but not as strong of an indicator as is raw tournament performance.

Bang. Your argument was destroyed before you even made it. The definition of "tier list" according to the MBR is something not only different but exclusive from the metric you want to rank characters with.

like......well....this is the translation: "Guys, we don't want to create havoc when people read this."

Pointless strawman. I've already addressed the issue of ties.

This community really has little to no idea how to assemble and formulate a tier list. Honestly, I'm not even trying to be rude but it is so ****ing true.

Actually we have a rather strong definition thanks to Umbreon (shout out to Umbreon) so yeah I guess what I'm saying is that you're dead wrong--we have an idea, criticize the idea if you want but you're just blowing hot air when you say "has little to no idea..."

"zomg. KAGE is tooooo good!...

lol @ you calling other posters mature. You don't even have the attention span to avoid hamstringing your own arguments MID POST

Every single character that has been bumped is because of "tournaments." In the grand scheme of this there is absolutely 100% nothing wrong with looking to tournaments for help when assembling a valid tier list. There is NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.

But when you take all of your points and look toward tournaments allllll the time it looks really lazy and ********. As I stated earlier that would be like saying Ryu is the best in SSF4 right now. **** E Honda and Guile, Ryus the best because the best player in the world is Daigo with Ryu. I mean we are doing that with MaNg0 and Hbox. Why aren't other gaming communities doing this? Maybe because you all have no idea how to formulate and create a tier list?

You wrongly conflate the top tier of SSF4 players with Melee's best, and then, vastly oversimplifying the MBR's methods making a false point that, if true, would indeed be a stupid situation. Unfortunately neither your logic nor your analogy holds up. I address SSF4 at the end.

You guys are missing out on STAGES/COUNTER PICKS, OPINIONS OTHER THAN TWO PEOPLE, GENERAL MATCH UP THOUGHTS/VALID DISCUSSION, AND GENERAL THEORY.

No we aren't. Just hold on for another quarter page...

I feel like we/I can't have valid discussion with any of you anymore because 90% of you are clueless as to how a competitive gaming community should be organized/run in terms of basic common sense stuff.

We can't have "valid discussion" (i.e. deductively valid arguments) because one of the members of this conversation (hint: not me) has failed to produce a single valid argument. Instead you he screams and shouts about "common sense" and argues from analogy.

Pretty sure most fighting games assemble tier lists based on MATCH UPS and not tournament results.

This is true, the reason we don't base our MBR Tier List™ on match ups is because that's not how the MBR Tier List™ is defined. Period.

If you, however, want to see the characters ranked by their match-ups, why don't you check t3h icy's awesome post. We even have another Character Rankings List for you to look at! It's good too!

So here's the problem with your appeals to how other fighting games do it. We've got lists made the exact same way. We have more lists than them.


tl;dr: I hereby declare that no one actually stupid may come into this topic and complain that the melee community is too stupid to produce a proper tier list.

 

[P. O. F.]

A bunch of crap

How Umbreon/the smash community defines a tier list is what you guys go by?

I stopped reading right there. I say stuff like "zomg!" and other dumb stuff like that in my posts because this community in a general sense is a joke and im just trolling.

Mario Kart 64 discussion in a tier list thread? Peopleasking others to pay for their plane tickets to a video game tournament? Inability to bring sufficient money with them to tournaments and smooch off other people? Smashers in debt of thousands of dollars?

Yeah, we should listen to people like this for how to make a tier list.

What makes you think anything that you say is relatively valid/accurate? Why dont you just meat ride Umbreon a little harder? Seems to me like that's all your doing in that post.

If you're going to bash my posts at least tell me why the tier list is where it is then. That's all we are trying to do in this thread after all. Right?


And that match up chart is horrible. Marth is even with Fox? Marth loses to Falcon? Thats why EVERY Falcon hates that match up. Pichu has the least amount of bad mu's? Accurate stuff.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

You've been nonstop bashing this community since your first post in this thread

why are you here?

oh and on-topic, i think the most solid, non-heated, best way to do a tier list is by points in matchups. i'm sure its been said before but just pushing the idea. it doesn't make sense to have an official tier list from a bunch of peoples pure opinions + tourny results, that's alot more unprofessional than a points system where things are actually justified.

 

[Jim Morrison]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tLqo2qhQDQ#t=2m55s

Marth for top tier.

 

[Merkuri]

Like King said I think the problem is mixing the two. We should have one tier list for opinions and a separate tier list for match ups. i think the MBR should take over the match up chart and provide us with one that the top players think is accurate.

 

[JPOBS]

@n1000

i see what you're trying to do here, but what you're saying boils down to is the fact that the MBR has randomly and without good reason decided to change what is typically supposed to be meant to represent a "Tier List", into a "ranking of characters based strickyl on them winning tournaments"

Granted, theres nothing inherently wrong with creating a list that shows strictly characters performance/representation in tournaments, but what most people are getting hung up on is you're still trying to call it a "Tier list" which to he rest of us, (and eveyone involved in fighting game communites), thats is NOT what a tierlist is.

Which means The MBR we either have to change what we are calling this list, or The MBR we are basically just going to say "**** it" to tradition/nomenclature/common sense, and just name it a "tier list" despite that not being what it actually is.

 

[CloneHat]

In my opinion, the Tier List should be based off of matchups, which should be based off of tournament results.

It makes more sense to argue matchups and let the numbers make the list for you. Arguing over placements and "low tier or high tier" is not based directly off anything; matchups, on the other hand, are testable.

 

[Merkuri]

In my opinion, the Tier List should be based off of matchups, which should be based off of tournament results.

It makes more sense to argue matchups and let the numbers make the list for you. Arguing over placements and "low tier or high tier" is not based directly off anything; matchups, on the other hand, are testable.

No Matchups should never be based off tourney results, because players' skill and match up experience wouldn't be differentiated.

The only logical way to have a match up chart is to do it based on opinion. And the most sensible way to do that would be through MBR voting. Then again I believe the MBR is too open, and they are a lot of people within the MBR who are a lot more ignorant than people realize.

 

[KAOSTAR]

No, I think Mewtwo has always been underrated but to make a jump from 24th to 18th because of one guy is pretty crazy IMO. I would say going up 2-3 spots is more respectable. Don't you?

no. mewtwo should have been 3 spots up. ppl are just uneducated. bowser, yoshi, roy, ness were clearly worse than m2. so in my mind he only moved up 2-3

the next 3 were questionable. zelda, yl, gw. some sort of weighing occurred and m2 moved up 2.

m2's placement was based off more than just taj gettin 17th @ apex.

ppl were just behind on mewtwo.