[NSW] Boost: REBOOT - Sunday, the 11th of September 2011

[S.D]

Ted, I guess you're getting the wrong idea from my posts.

In no way did I bag out Brawl or try to discredit it, I can see why you might be angry had I done so.

All I did was point to the nature of the game as not incredibly dependant on "technical skill" in terms of the frequency and speed of inputs to play the game at a high level. This is not necessarily a weakness of the game, in fact in many ways it is a strength. People like Azen prefer Brawl FOR THIS REASON - It takes more than just an adequate ability to control your character to win.

Brawl is a game that places more emphasis on other aspects of the game. All I'm saying is most high level players should have near perfect control of their character, but the choices they make within the structure of the game are far more important than being able to press buttons fast to make the manz fall down.

Don't mistake my arguments as Brawl bashing, its just an observation.

 

[ComboTurtle]

Ted, I guess you're getting the wrong idea from my posts.

In no way did I bag out Brawl or try to discredit it, I can see why you might be angry had I done so.

All I did was point to the nature of the game as not incredibly dependant on "technical skill" in terms of the frequency and speed of inputs to play the game at a high level. This is not necessarily a weakness of the game, in fact in many ways it is a strength. People like Azen prefer Brawl FOR THIS REASON - It takes more than just an adequate ability to control your character to win.

Brawl is a game that places more emphasis on other aspects of the game. All I'm saying is most high level players should have near perfect control of their character, but the choices they make within the structure of the game are far more important than being able to press buttons fast to make the manz fall down.

Don't mistake my arguments as Brawl bashing, its just an observation.

stop hurting brawl players feelings you a55hole, its a good game it has diddy kong

p.s why you not on msn, i could use some internet hugz!11!

 

[luke_atyeo]

so yeah, sounds like it would be rather easy for me to come down, drop my **** off and drive over to pick up ea at the station no?

 

[tedeth]

Yeah SD I kind of misread your posts. Amongst all the other junk it kind of just worked it's way into that category in my mind somehow.

 

[luke_atyeo]

how about **** you tedeth for not including me in your abusive post

 

[isthattim?]

i've got hurt feelings ted, i've got hurt feelings

anyways, def's won't be able to make it to the 27th one but i will send down my tv and other equipment with Samwell

maybe my ds with jump on it if he wants

 

[CAOTIC]

By the way, if people want me to infract each other, you need to report the post. For the uninitaited (most of you), that's the wee small

button below everyone's name.

 

[ComboTurtle]

By the way, if people want me to infract each other, you need to report the post. For the uninitaited (most of you), that's the wee small

button below everyone's name.

i'll infract you

 

[Shaya]

Second post of the thread (first page) with most updated ruleset.

 

[swordsaint]

Shaya, I think you're forgetting something.

With Kirby and D3, it becomes a sudden death. It only shows the other character winning if they break out just before they die, and kirby/d3 dies instead.

Also I like the stage list!

However, I think despite how random it is, tripping should be left on at all times. There is no doubt going to be Wii's present without Homebrew readily available to turn tripping off. Tripping CAN change a games momentum and flow quite easily. Playing with different rules dependant on Wii is silly imo.

 

[Melancholy]

Rainbow cruise not a counterpick?

 

[S.D]

I think if both players agree to playing without tripping they should be allowed to do so.

 

[Melancholy]

I think everyone would want random tripping off, but if some wii's don't have the option thats not really fair.

 

[Toby.]

People who might like tripping: anyone going up against d3

i dont want tripping, but meh.

 

[Shaya]

I guess I'm okay with Rainbow Cruise being a normal counter pick (it is on in doubles...). Choices people?

The problem is the 'standard' though, some wiis with tripping on and others off can be icky.

THIS HOWEVER CAN BE RESOLVED IF:
We have an abundance of wiis with homebrew confirmed to come.

Otherwise,
"Random Tripping Off" is a one player choice in finals (i.e. if one wants it off, its off) within all the best of 5 sets, and maybe some winners/losers semis?

As I know:
Mine, e_alerts, meteors, teds?, etc etc have homebrew.

 

[Melancholy]

Coming from a completely unbiased G&W main, Rainbow Cruise should be counterpick.

 

[S.D]

I has homebrew but i only has brawl+ on it.

It doesn't have to be tripping off across the board. If both players want to play without tripping they should be allowed to do so and use one of the setups that has that. If tripping is on thats fine too.

 

[swordsaint]

I reckon if Rainbow Cruise is allowed to be Counterpick, so should Rumble Falls and Mushroomy Kingdom, Big Blue as well.

All moving stages that promote a different style of play.
Big Blue is just a moving version of japes. (the water being replaced with the track)

slight exaggeration maybe, but still

 

[Shaya]

As long as it has homebrew I'm fine with it.

In general I'd say any wii with homebrew will have it started up using my SD card so I
a) Know there are no 'weird hacks'
b) ^
c) yeah.

Huge exageration scoot.

Rainbow Cruise is not as deadly to play on as any of those other stages.

But as the stage seems to be okay with Wario (various times said by Ted), G&W it seems, ROB and THE META KNIGHT, then eh...

 

[swordsaint]

I say otherwise. So many characters styles simply don't work on RC, same as the other stages. If you're floaty and can gimp well it's pretty screwed up.

Against certain characters, we're forced to ban a certain stage because it's almost unwinnable, I'll use RC as the banned stage example here. Against Metaknight we're forced to ban RC so we don't get absolutely gayed, the counterpicking rules are then much more skewed in Metaknights favour (more so than without RC) because we can't cover other bad stages.

I just think RC is too different to other stages to be considered viable. That's a personal opinion and I doubt it'll ever change, but not even factoring in Metaknight, RC itself affects different aspects of the game more than it should.

 

[Shaya]

Thats my opinion on it.

A stage that is so skewed in one characters favour that theres no point not picking that character if told of the counter pick. This is Meta Knight of course.

I used to think that way of Jungle Japes; kind of mixed opinion now. I think it's still winnable for non falcos. It may get moved to doubles only over time.

 

[tedeth]

I'm a big supporter of the idea that if we're playing seriously we should follow a global ruleset. Stages are fine to be varied but I think using hacks like "no tripping" is a bit silly. Don't get me wrong, I've been screwed by tripping too in the past, but as it stands it's part of the game. If we're going to turn off random tripping why don't we use hacks to balance characters out aswell? eg. nerf tornado?

 

[swordsaint]

Haha! We agree on something. I didn't think I've live to see the day!

Well seeing as you are the TO here, it's your choice to ban or allow RC. Considering what we just went over though, let's ban it please.

I'm a big supporter of the idea that if we're playing seriously we should follow a global ruleset. Stages are fine to be varied but I think using hacks like "no tripping" is a bit silly. Don't get me wrong, I've been screwed by tripping too in the past, but as it stands it's part of the game. If we're going to turn off random tripping why don't we use hacks to balance characters out aswell? eg. nerf tornado?

This is what I was trying to say but couldn't find the proper wording for. Thanks Ted.

 

[M]

** There are many brawl hacks readily available to use. It is the owner's responsibility they conform to these standards:
- They do NOT alter game play, characters abilities nor stage design (i.e. brawl+ stuff).

The following codes are approved of use:
~ RANDOM TRIPPING OFF (DISCUSS!)

Contradiction.

 

[luke_atyeo]

I think rainbow cruise should be in, if its out jungle japes should be out too, imo japes should go a long time before rainbow cruise.

shaya you know why this is so I wont bother justifying it.

 

[swordsaint]

Elaborate for the rest of us Luke.

At least Japes has a constant ground and somewhere solid to stand on. RC you have to constantly put effort in both surviving the stage and Metaknight.

 

[Shaya]

There is no -real- contradiction Ricky.

On one hand I can argue that random tripping is not altering game play, it's removing something random (just like how we have items on, tripping is essentially the same thing, except there isn't an option in the menu to turn it off) that alters who can WIN by being given a FREE OPPORTUNITY, just like items do. We can't "turn off" random item picks by Dedede or Peach either (without a code), but they are designed FOR THE CHARACTER, unlike tripping which is universal. Which universally is seen as annoying. How would you feel about losing a match/set because you tripped and Ice Climbers got a grab because of it? There's no "counter" to the random tripping produces (except for not running...) whilst Peach's/Dededes is avoidable with air dodges, shields, or various characters with reflectors.

I also said 'Discuss'. And it is being discussed, there was no need to bring it up as a contradiction. It's a draft ruleset that I thought/wrote up in about 30 minutes mostly replicating the SBR's rule set.

Actually Luke, I'm not entirely sure what you're going by when you mention Japes being worse than rainbow cruise.
Remember: Klap Trap comes every 9.96 seconds or something, so in general throughout the match the klap trap is coming out on the 'xx:x7'.

Also ledge gayness by certain characters on Jungle Japes is nearly erradicated with my very stern "ledge grab time out rule".

As I described to ricky.

"Using the ledges in Jungle Japes is how Falco can really use the stage to win,
Falco will most likely go over the 25 ledge grab rule, the 25 ledge grab rule for Falco on this stage does not ruin his game strategy.
It greatly weakens his ability to just stall out the match without punishment though"
It's in Falco's best interests to use the stage to win, whilst still planning to win the match by defeating the opponent within the time period.

 

[swordsaint]

On a similar note to Shaya's about Japes, I'll bring up a similar stalling thing with MK on RC.

Metaknight can stall RC greater than he can stall on any other stage because his Dair camping DOES NOT RELY ON LEDGES. Unlike any other stage where he must eventually find a way to land. Metaknight's job is made too easy on RC with just one move.

So while Falco on Japes can be countered with the rule about ledge grabs.
We can ask the question, what rule can be implement to stop MK from stalling RC?
Easiest solution is to ban RC.

 

[Melancholy]

So ban RC with your stage ban? Don't comepletely get rid of a stage that can be a useful counterpick for other characters too.

 

[swordsaint]

And as previously said, we're being FORCED to ban RC, losing our choice to ban RC (or get destroyed).

And with that, Metaknight is now given SEVERAL other stages ripe for the picking that we simply cannot cover because there was a worse stage.

Whether it be a good MK stage, or a bad stage for our character.

With RC present we're giving MK more options and that's the last thing we want to do, ever.

 

[tedeth]

Just learn to play Wario. Half waft kills MK on RC at like 40% lol.

 

[swordsaint]

**** you ted for posting a one liner commenting on but not in anyway trying to solve the issue

lolirony

So now we're being coerced in to picking a secondary just because of a stage? hmmmmmm

 

[Melancholy]

I might have to pick up a secondary if all of G&W's good counterpicks are banned in this stage list :S

Not that I expect to win at all, but it's not fair that one of my few decent counterpick options against hard matchups is likely banned just because someone might play as MK.

 

[Shaya]

I promote secondaries for stages. Arguing rules based on "you should never be at a huge disadvantage using just one character" is bad

But I am never afraid to go Meta Knight on rainbow cruise.

It was quite funny for me when toby and I fought UTD Zac and Dojo in double's pools at genesis.
We lose first match (duh)
"we ban rainbow cruise!"
WHAT? THEY USE META KNIGHT AND GAME AND WATCH
"why the **** would you do that?", says I.
"oh because anyone can just go MK on it and get lucky and win".

Two of the best players in the world, people. lololol.

I'm happy to give benefit to the doubt though. I don't think I'd ever not go meta knight on rainbow cruise if someone wanted to use it against me, however.
Even though I find it fun using Marth on it lol. I just rememeber the days of S.D's pit on it... oh god.

Melancholy, the reason I argue for RC to not be legal is because of MK's sheer near unparraleled dominance on it (for someone experienced with the stage).

Would you still feel the same about RC if everytime you use it the opponent goes MK? What if you lose to someone you know you're a better player than who doesnt even USE MK regularly in tournaments just because of that stage?

But, anyway, benefit of the doubt time.
Rainbow Cruise as CP for the 27th .

 

[swordsaint]

I'm curious as to why Pirate Ship is banned?

Hazards are normal and water planking is easily countered. (I have since figured out a way around it Ricky <3).

Also, I find RC a weird counterpick for Game and Watch, I would personally think it more of a counter to a Snake player, and anyone who isn't snake you should take preference over Halberd. (Low Ceiling = lol up smash.)


EDIT:
LAWLAWL

I think I'll use MK a bit more at Boost. And see where I get with it.

 

[Melancholy]

I can see where you're coming from, and no, obviously I would not want to play on RC if everyone was going to be MK on it. It's just frustrating to see some of my preferred counterpick options banned.

But hey, it's your tournament, and you are the one with way more tourny experience than me, so your call. I'll adapt.

I'm not good enough with G&W yet to try and master a secondary as well lol, so that's probably out of the question.

 

[Shaya]

Here's how boost's stage transitions will go;

Stages which are deemed as horribly broken for one character or agreed to be a 'campy', 'stupid', 'stally' whatever.
If they remain 'stupid' they go off into banned-land.

Opposite holds true. Currently banned stages may move into doubles only, and if felt to be "Not so bad" (I'm looking at Green Greens here) may go into the standard stage list.

Meteor's water planking is a bit silly. Even if I can beat his Ness on it with Marth.
The main reason is this:
A player like Meteor continues to stay in the water even at a percent/stock disadvantage, and it's completely 'fine' to do so. No one can easily approach or punish, or hit between like ledge campers can (like pit at the ledge or tink with a bomb, or marth with a fair leaving themselves OPEN; even if it's minimal). It's nearly completely safe to stall a match out there under 'stalling banned' like pretences.
Characters never have to leave the water, all they need is one jump and their drowning resets. Theres no way to enforce a ledge grab rule; they never need to touch the ledge.

Matches shouldnt be

Hey, I'm winning,
oh look Ness jumps in the water and sends off pk thunders at me for like 2-3 minutes whilst I dodge them. Or I just sit outside the range the PK thunder can go (seems simple, right?) Some stage like thing comes along and he still continues to stall there, whilst losing. As you have to stay such a huge distance away from Ness to avoid his water camping, he can easily get back on stage, shoot some more of those things then go back to the water, all the time being at a near 100% advantage getting more and more damage...
He's attacking me, and all most characters can do is sit there and defend.
IF HES WINNING, the same situation resolves, except you can't defend and wait for the timer to win, you have to jump in, and most likely lose.

The stage offers ways around it.
Like waiting for the small ship to come.

But that's about it.
Think of the water + ness being Meta Knight off the stage (AND BELOW IT) with infinite jumps.

 

[swordsaint]

Makes perfect sense. I feel that the currect stage list should be left now until after the tournament where further observations can be made.

 

[Gords]

Scoot the solution to your problem is win the first game. And ban cruise. Then you will have a greater chance of winning than if you didn't ban cruise. And if you lose then you get to pick a stage for your character and win on that.


@random triping off.
I think it best if the we had a standard for the tourney. As all setups are on or off. If there is a choice then people may have to either wait for a console with tripping off or will have to play with tripping on. And similarly if hey want trippng on and those consoles are in use. This may slow things down and push the schedule.

Saying this though I hate random tripping with a passion. And as you say Shaya it brings randomness to the game which is the reason for other settings off (items/stages). A suggestion could be to have tripping on as standard during pools/Swiss (you were running Swiss during other BOOSTS). And for the brackets you can turn trippng off. Or even give the option to the players. By this time demand for consoles to be used for tourney matches shouldn't be a problem.

 

[swordsaint]

On Ricky's water camping I semi-disagree. for as long as his PK thunder's flying about he's vulnerable, and once his PK thunder dies it has a small cooldown time.

If you're good enough you can attack clash with the thunder (as he does it) to cancel it then continue to punish while he's in freefall or as he hits the water.

A little overrated imo.