Next Tier List on 5th June - What do you think we have to expect?

[Jigglymaster]

I hope Zelda goes down. She'll be just as good either way, and people will be more likely to underestimate her.

You never want your character to go lower. You probably aren't the best Zelda in the world so theres more out there for you to learn. If Zelda goes down that means that there is less stuff to know about zelda meaning you most likely won't have the potential to make her a better character. If a character goes up that means the best have said there is more to learn about the character and you can eventually do good with them in tournaments.

 

[uhmuzing]

You never want your character to go lower. You probably aren't the best Zelda in the world so theres more out there for you to learn. If Zelda goes down that means that there is less stuff to know about zelda meaning you most likely won't have the potential to make her a better character. If a character goes up that means the best have said there is more to learn about the character and you can eventually do good with them in tournaments.

Spoken like a true Jigglymaster. I agree, if your character goes up, there is more to learn. If not, your character is stationary.

 

[smash brawl player 99021]

I definently think Wario would move up. Falco will fall a few places...

 

[gm jack]

You don't recall correctly. Zelda has a 30:70 vs. GaW and a 35:65 vs. Olimar. No other matchup is below 40:60. Hardly unwinnable.

Snake and MK are both looking like 70:30 when discussed. To roughly quote, Zelda's options against them are as follows:

1)Fsmash and hope they run into it.
2)Be significantly better.

MK and Snake have the following against Zelda:

Pretty much everything.

As G&W still is worse than either of those two for Zelda, this means that matchup ratio is going to get worse.

However, on the other hand, Sheik appears to be coming on in leaps and bounds. The pair of them together is becoming even more of a force to be reckoned with.

 

[uhmuzing]

This is a possible Top Ten based completely on what I've heard and how I feel.

Somewhere Above
Meta Knight
Snake

1st Degree
King Dedede
Diddy Kong
Wario
Marth

2nd Degree
Falco
G&W
Lucario
Pikachu

...and so on. IDK, I put this together in about thirty seconds.

 

[Alus]

I am expecting captain falcon...to somehow destroy logic and go even lower...

 

[xDD-Master]

Looks pretty good but I would replace Lucario by Olimar. Thats all.

 

[Jigglymaster]

imo falcon has gotten somewhat better according to CF mains, but hes going to remain the worst because theres no one he can surpass. Ganon is everything captain falcon is but stronger. Jigglypuffs going to be long gone out of bottom tier now. Even Link seems like hes still better than Falcon.

 

[uhmuzing]

I don't really see how on Earth Jiggs can escape G tier.

 

[Jigglymaster]

I've convinced NJ (one of the best states in the country at Brawl) that Jigglypuff is a very good character.

As I said on the last page, Jigglypuff preforms much better than most of the low tier characters and wins low tier tournaments. Also she fairs well against characters like MK, DDD, and Falco.

She has one of the best recoveries. Jigglypuff has one of the best dash grabs in the game too. Many stages are in her favor such as Frigate, Delfino, Castle Siege, Brinstar, Norfair, RC, and Japes.

Jigglypuff is better than link, pt, ness, lucas, samus, mario, yoshi, and ike. I didn't say Sonic because he should move up as well.

 

[Jski]

I am hoping zss goes up and that we see more zss at big events!

 

[Mecakoto]

Captain Falcon and Ganondorf will switch places.

Ganon has HORRID match-ups. (0-100 against Ice Climbers... Lol) This alone should make his fate at the bottom of the tier list certain.

Falcon, on the other hand, while only having bad match-ups and his best match-up being 50-50, can be a force to be feared. This is mostly because of his speed, overall KO power, and his insane Jab. If his priority wasn't so god-awful and his moves with good KO power weren't so slow, he'd be a good character. That, and who has prepared for the Captain Falcon match-up? Not many.

Luigi should go up a nice bit. Weegee has great priority, good kill options, (shoryuken WILL kill you at under 70%. More or less depending on character weight) good combo ability in the air, and an air game that few characters can rival. All this, and if you aren't playing a character that can safely gimp Luigi, Luigi will get back to the stage in most all cases.

The only think holding The Green Mustache back is his horrid range, but he has ways to get inside an opponent, so this isn't to much of a problem. (unless you're playing Falco, Wolf, or any character with an equally annoying spammy projectile. Zelda doesn't count, as a N-Air beats hers) His potential has been shown by great players like Boss and from various statistics. I'd be shocked if he DOESN'T rise a few slots.
*My opinion. This is my opinion. Don't complain if you don't agree. I'll make you look like an idiotic scrub if you do.

 

[uhmuzing]

Wow. I've been told. If Jigglypuff can fair against MK, she's a friend of mine.

 

[Exia 00]

The only guarantee is Dedede moving up to third place.

I would expect GnW to move down (predictable now), Lucario moving down (I don't see any lucarios in tourneys) and probably DK (IMO he was over estimated)

I would really want to see Pit and Pokemon Trainer move up on the tier list but... you never know what to expect.

GRAY FOX IS GOD TIER!

 

[san.]

I'm pretty sure jigglypuff is going to go up.. The problem is convincing people with more evidence. I could never find many videos of top jigglypuff players (that's not doubles) either.

Sonic's going up, too many good tourney results/something needs to be reevaluated.

I think G&W may be going down, but I hope someone can prove me otherwise.

Ike's staying the same or may go lower. We had poor tourney showings especially since some of our better players either left or stopped maining Ike, even though I still think there's potential with moves that still needs to be looked into.

Sheik and ZSS should go up. Just so many things coming out for them.

Then what everyone else said about the higher tiers.. don't feel like repeating people.

Other mid-tiers or low-high should remain stagnant or go down

 

[uhmuzing]

The only guarantee is Dedede moving up to third place.

I would expect GnW to move down, Lucario moving down and probably DK (IMO he was over estimated

I would really want to see pit move up on the tier list but... you never know what to expect... (excluding the top tiers)

I agree. D3 will own the third position about as surely as C. Falcon will remain at last (although I still hope Falcon will climb out).

 

[HawaiianJigglyPuff]

You never want your character to go lower. You probably aren't the best Zelda in the world so theres more out there for you to learn. If Zelda goes down that means that there is less stuff to know about zelda meaning you most likely won't have the potential to make her a better character. If a character goes up that means the best have said there is more to learn about the character and you can eventually do good with them in tournaments.

I disagree. People place too much emphasis on the tier lists.

There's nothing better than having your character being low and proving people wrong.

It's totally practical to want your character to go down so that fewer people play that character and aren't experienced enough in fighting it.

Edit: When a character moves in a tier list, nothing changed. You don't suddenly have a worse character now.

 

[uhmuzing]

I'm divided by wanting my characters to rise on the tier list (HA! My character is higher than yours!), and winning with low-tier ones (30:70 match-up and I owned you!).

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I agree. D3 will own the third position about as surely as C. Falcon will remain at last (although I still hope Falcon will climb out).

Falcon won't remain last. Check his match-ups, then check Ganons. That should say enough.

 

[Jigglymaster]

I disagree. People place too much emphasis on the tier lists.

There's nothing better than having your character being low and proving people wrong.

It's totally practical to want your character to go down so that fewer people play that character and aren't experienced enough in fighting it.

Edit: When a character moves in a tier list, nothing changed. You don't suddenly have a worse character now.

You don't seem to understand my point. When the character goes down that means there LESS to learn about that character. Yes, nothing has changed but because its lower on the tier list means its future is LIMITED.

Most people can learn the matchup very quickly after the 1st match. They best players make the tier list and if they think the character is bad then they'll move them down. Which means if you think you can prove players wrong by beating them then you yourself is wrong because the better players say the character is bad.

Your merely contradicting yourself. What is it you want anyways? You want your character to go down to prove that the character isn't as bad as people think it is. If the character isn't as bad as people think it is then the character should go up. And the tier list isn't going to be made up of lies.

Lets say Jigglypuff moves up because she suddenly has winning matchup against MK. The character hasn't changed but people have proved that Jigglypuff can infact beat MK more often then he can beat Jigglypuff. Your Jigglypuff can't beat MK yet though because the character didn't magically changed, but now you know its possible so you practice and train and learn the matchup and then you start beating MKs.

If Jigglypuff went down on the tier list or stayed because of crappy matchups then you'd never be able to get anywhere. Your Jigglypuff can't beat Mk yet but, oh wait, there is nothing else you can do in that matchup, you'll never beat the MK.

A Huge Percentage of a players play style is copied from better players because about 98% of all smashers can't find new techniques on their own. What I mean by techniques is that people start copying YOU because that new find was good. Its not easy for the top players to find new things contently. Many people rely on them to get more information about their character and depending on how much of each person found on the character puts them where they are on the tier list.

About the very few amount of Jigglypuff professionals including myself are working our ***** off to find new things. Jigglypuff moving up on the tier list would also attract more players to the character so that we have a bigger chance of finding new stuff. Moving down on the tier list or staying would be a big slap in the face telling us we didn't do **** to improve the characters metagame when she is clearly a better character than characters above her atm.

Thinking that is good for a character to go down on the tier list because people would underestimate the character is a very sad, unmanly, and terrible excuse. Its not cool to win just because the opponent didn't know how to fight the character. Its a lame and stupid way of trying to win when most of the time your not even going to win with that way. Man up and fight your opponent when he has full knowledge of your character and what hes going to do. It seriously sickens me.

 

[HawaiianJigglyPuff]

You don't seem to understand my point. When the character goes down that means there LESS to learn about that character. Yes, nothing has changed but because its lower on the tier list means its future is LIMITED.

Most people can learn the matchup very quickly after the 1st match. They best players make the tier list and if they think the character is bad then they'll move them down. Which means if you think you can prove players wrong by beating them then you yourself is wrong because the better players say the character is bad.

Your merely contridicting yourself? What is it you want anyways? You want your character to go down to prove that the character isn't as bad as people think it is. If the character isn't as bad as people think it is then the character should go up. And the tier list isn't going to be made up of lies.

Lets say Jigglypuff moves up because she suddenly has winning matchup against MK. The character hasn't changed but people have proved that Jigglypuff can infact beat MK more often then he can beat Jigglypuff. Your Jigglypuff can't beat MK yet though because the character didn't magically changed, but now you know its possible so you practice and train and learn the matchup and then you start beating MKs.

If Jigglypuff went down on the tier list or stayed because of crappy matchups then you'd never be able to get anywhere. Your Jigglypuff can't beat Mk yet but, oh wait, there is nothing else you can do in that matchup, you'll never beat the MK.

A Huge Percentage of a players play style is copied from better players because about 98% of all smashers can't find new techniques on their own. What I mean by techniques is that people start copying YOU because that new find was good. Its not easy for the top players to find new things contently. Many people rely on them to get more information about their character and depending on how much of each person found on the character puts them where they are on the tier list.

About the very few amount of Jigglypuff professionals including myself are working our ***** off to find new things. Jigglypuff moving up on the tier list would also attract more players to the character so that we have a bigger chance of finding new stuff.

Ok I see what you're saying. I guess what I really mean is that tier lists change a lot sometimes and people shouldn't place so much emphasis on them. People will see their character go down and stop playing it thus perpetuating the problem. If people stop playing a character, that character has no where to go but down.

Dang...am I really arguing over the existence of tiers?
Hm. Maybe I should stop LOL. I concede defeat.


EDIT: Ahh, I see what you're saying. Nevermind. You're right.

 

[uhmuzing]

Will Ness and Lucas stay tied? I think not. There not too different, but I say one of them is better than the other.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Jigglypuff is better than link, pt, ness, lucas, samus, mario, yoshi, and ike. I didn't say Sonic because he should move up as well.

I'm sorry but.....you are joking, correct? Because I find the idea of Jigglypuff being better then those characters in bold quite laughable. I can see arguments being made about Link and Samus, but outside of that...no. Just no. Suggesting Jigglypuff is better then all of those characters is as crazy as me saying Ike is better then Sheik, Bowser, Fox, Luigi, and Zelda.

Jigglypuff is too screwed over by the lack of hitstun/Brawl in general to move more then one or two spots max without some game breaking discovery. Sure, she will win some matches due to lack of experience, and she has her few pocket advantage match-ups against high-tier characters, but that is FAR from enough to shoot her up nearly as many places as you are suggesting.

 

[Jigglymaster]

I'm sorry but.....you are joking, correct? Because I find the idea of Jigglypuff being better then those characters in bold quite laughable. I can see arguments being made about Link and Samus, but outside of that...no. Just no. Suggesting Jigglypuff is better then all of those characters is as crazy as me saying Ike is better then Sheik, Bowser, Fox, Luigi, and Zelda.

Jigglypuff is too screwed over by the lack of hitstun/Brawl in general to move more then one or two spots max without some game breaking discovery. Sure, she will win some matches due to lack of experience, and she has her few pocket advantage match-ups against high-tier characters, but that is FAR from enough to shoot her up nearly as many places as you are suggesting.

You obviously don't know much about Jigglypuff seeing that your stating something that Jiggly mains haven't had to worry about since like half a year ago...

Ask most of NJ on what their opinion of Jigglypuff is and you'll find out why I say shes better than those characters.

Jigglypuff SHOULD be top of low tier.

 

[A~Kid/ToonethLinkage]

Are you new to the game? Because Meta Knight is basically the God of Smash. Everybody knows that.



Anyway, hya's mah tier list:

A+:

Meta Knight

A:

Snake
Falco
King Dedede
Diddy Kong
Wario
Mr. Game & Watch

B:

Marth
Olimar
Pikachu
Lucario
R.O.B
Ice Climbers
Kirby
Zero Suit Samus
Donkey Kong
Peach

C:

Toon Link
Pit
Wolf
Luigi
Sheik
Bowser
Zelda
Fox
Sonic
Yoshi
Ness

D:

Ike
Mario
Pokemon Trainer
Lucas
Samus
Link

F:

Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf

I'm just saying that Snake is really like onef of the best (if not THE best) matchup for a Meta Knight. Snake and Meta Kight are about even. Those games where Ally beat M@K 3 games to 1 REALLY got me thinking that Snake should be better than Meta Knight. He should be 1st and MK should be 2nd.

 

[Nic64]

He should be 1st and MK should be 2nd.

Snake has disadvantages, MK's worst matchup is even, how is Snake better again? It's more arguable that Wario is better than Snake than Snake being better than MK lol.

 

[Shaya]

My good ol theory of the tier list, whilst knowing the SBR won't think the same, because they probably still over rate characters like Falco and Game and Watch, whilst the former has definitely certified himself to have HARD COUNTERS. And the former not really exceeding against any of the high/top tiers at all, losing strongly to both Marth and Snake.
Diddy and Wario are on the rise, and Marth is their achilles heel.

Anyway, continuining the theory, I aim to think of it as a "trio" of top tier, in melee this was Fox, Marth and Sheik. Sheik beating Marth, Fox beating Sheik, and well Fox being a slight cut above the rest. To relate this to brawl, these characters are Meta Knight, Snake and Dedede. Dedede being the 'sheikish' character, making so many unviable, but actually having several hard match ups across the character roster.

I order the high tiers from what I gather are their round about match ups, or significance in the metagame.
If the point system was to be used like last time, Snake will definitely increase his points. Hes increased any 'previous' REAL disadvantage on him to 50:50 at LEAST (minus Dedede), and continues to stride fourth, making his match ups more and more in his favour as times goes on. He's becoming as big of a threat as Meta Knight.

Without further ado (order of characters in individual tiers are arbitrary)

Tier 1 [****ing AWESOME]
Meta Knight (durr)

Tier 2 [No 'hard' match ups]
Snake
Dedede (D3 Is the obvious exception here, but due to my theorising of the trio theory, his still ever present tournament dominance, and in my opinion only really having FALCO now to really worry about, he is number 3...)

Tier 3 [One "bad" match up]
Wario
Diddy Kong
Marth
Both Wario and Diddy lose to Marth, but Marth loses to Meta Knight (but it seems to be getting better). Potentially over coming his weakness of D3, and Snake PROBABLY getting worse. If it wasn't for Marth's advantages on just about all the other high tiers in his tier and below him, he wouldn't be as significant here

Tier 4 [Minor-Semi Significant disadvantages)
Pikachu
Ice Climbers
Falco
Game and Watch

Tier 5 [Semi+ disadvantages, strong match ups]
Lucario
ROB
Olimar
...?

This is probably the most debatable tiers (even for me to discern).
1. Falco has been hit hard, he SHOULDN'T BE top 5 anymore with definite hard counters from ICs, most likely Pikachu, and worsening match ups against Wario , Snake, Diddy Kong, Olimar, and possibly Marth. However Falco's "dominance" is akin to Dedede, and boasts evenish match ups still with Snake and MK, and being Dedede's MAJOR weakness in the current metagame.
2. Game and Watch, whilst being outrageously good 'bases', literally destroying most of the tiers below him, suffers having no real advantages on anyone above him; having slight controls over ICs, Pika, Falco and some others.
3. With Pikachu becoming a major concern for MANY characters, including Falco, an increasing advantage on Dedede, Snake, Meta Knight and many others, he would be in a tier above if it weren't for Marth, and MK still restricting him.
4. Ice Climbers have proven to be a power house, arguablly only having a real weakness against Diddy Kong and Snake. And boosting probably a close to even match up with MK, whilst perhaps being the most 'technical' and exhaustive character in Brawl, Nana and Popo are amazing, and their infinites are down right GAME BREAKING. Top it off with how significantly 'unstoppable' their desynching moves can be, only characters with strong defensive projectiles/mobility can argue not being even or disadvantaged against ICs. Also accounting ICs being Falco's hardest match up.

Tier 6 [Arguably viable for solo]
Pit
Peach
Kirby
Zero Suit Samus
Toon Link

And from there I can say all below are mostly unviable: i.e. low/mid'ish' tier.
Sonic, Pokemon Trainer, Luigi, Sheik/Zelda and Wolf are probably the next cut above the remaining characters.

 

[A~Kid/ToonethLinkage]

Snake has disadvantages, MK's worst matchup is even, how is Snake better again? It's more arguable that Wario is better than Snake than Snake being better than MK lol.

You know you're right. But still MK and Snake, they should be TOGETHER in the SS tier! :D And on the S tier should be...........

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

My good ol theory of the tier list, whilst knowing the SBR won't think the same, because they probably still over rate characters like Falco and Game and Watch, whilst the former has definitely certified himself to have HARD COUNTERS. And the former not really exceeding against any of the high/top tiers at all, losing strongly to both Marth and Snake.
Diddy and Wario are on the rise, and Marth is their achilles heel.

Anyway, continuining the theory, I aim to think of it as a "trio" of top tier, in melee this was Fox, Marth and Sheik. Sheik beating Marth, Fox beating Sheik, and well Fox being a slight cut above the rest. To relate this to brawl, these characters are Meta Knight, Snake and Dedede. Dedede being the 'sheikish' character, making so many unviable, but actually having several hard match ups across the character roster.

I order the high tiers from what I gather are their round about match ups, or significance in the metagame.
If the point system was to be used like last time, Snake will definitely increase his points. Hes increased any 'previous' REAL disadvantage on him to 50:50 at LEAST (minus Dedede), and continues to stride fourth, making his match ups more and more in his favour as times goes on. He's becoming as big of a threat as Meta Knight.

Without further ado (order of characters in individual tiers are arbitrary)

Tier 1 [****ing AWESOME]
Meta Knight (durr)

Tier 2 [No 'hard' match ups]
Snake
Dedede (D3 Is the obvious exception here, but due to my theorising of the trio theory, his still ever present tournament dominance, and in my opinion only really having FALCO now to really worry about, he is number 3...)

Tier 3 [One "bad" match up]
Wario
Diddy Kong
Marth
Both Wario and Diddy lose to Marth, but Marth loses to Meta Knight (but it seems to be getting better). Potentially over coming his weakness of D3, and Snake PROBABLY getting worse. If it wasn't for Marth's advantages on just about all the other high tiers in his tier and below him, he wouldn't be as significant here

Tier 4 [Minor-Semi Significant disadvantages)
Pikachu
Ice Climbers
Falco
Game and Watch

Tier 5 [Semi+ disadvantages, strong match ups]
Lucario
ROB
Olimar
...?

This is probably the most debatable tiers (even for me to discern).
1. Falco has been hit hard, he SHOULDN'T BE top 5 anymore with definite hard counters from ICs, most likely Pikachu, and worsening match ups against Wario , Snake, Diddy Kong, Olimar, and possibly Marth. However Falco's "dominance" is akin to Dedede, and boasts evenish match ups still with Snake and MK, and being Dedede's MAJOR weakness in the current metagame.
2. Game and Watch, whilst being outrageously good 'bases', literally destroying most of the tiers below him, suffers having no real advantages on anyone above him; having slight controls over ICs, Pika, Falco and some others.
3. With Pikachu becoming a major concern for MANY characters, including Falco, an increasing advantage on Dedede, Snake, Meta Knight and many others, he would be in a tier above if it weren't for Marth, and MK still restricting him.
4. Ice Climbers have proven to be a power house, arguablly only having a real weakness against Diddy Kong and Snake. And boosting probably a close to even match up with MK, whilst perhaps being the most 'technical' and exhaustive character in Brawl, Nana and Popo are amazing, and their infinites are down right GAME BREAKING. Top it off with how significantly 'unstoppable' their desynching moves can be, only characters with strong defensive projectiles/mobility can argue not being even or disadvantaged against ICs. Also accounting ICs being Falco's hardest match up.

Tier 6 [Arguably viable for solo]
Pit
Peach
Kirby
Zero Suit Samus
Toon Link

And from there I can say all below are mostly unviable: i.e. low/mid'ish' tier.
Sonic, Pokemon Trainer, Luigi, Sheik/Zelda and Wolf are probably the next cut above the remaining characters.

Shaya just won this thread. Like, for real.

Only thing is, I think ROB's going to go down a bit more. People haven't been using him as much, and MK kinda ***** him hard, I think it's 70:30.

Trio idea is interesting and really makes sense. This is really good Shaya.

:sniper:

 

[smash brawl player 99021]

whaaaat? MK has discovered it's first BAD matchup. He's not completely superhuman.

 

[Volt7x]

Darn. I'm gonna be gone until July. I guess I'll check it out when I come back.

 

[Nic64]

MK has discovered it's first BAD matchup

no he hasn't o_O

 

[Allied]

Sonic and Luigi are no doubt going up with no problems at all

IF lucas stays next to ness in the tier list theres something wrong hes obviously a little higher

Diddy is taking #3 spot imo

Falco's going down

GaW is going down

Wario is up!<3

Captain falcon should go up
amirite?

 

[aznboi4sa1e]

i don't understand why olimar isn't high high tier; he owns 'on' stage

and if you play correctly, it's almost possible to not be knocked off the stage

 

[Shaya]

Wario will be third.
Falco should drop but he probably won't.
Diddy will probably go up as well.

Falco was the flavour of the 'tier list' last time around, with the whole Mew2King posting in the falco boards saying "Falco is probably the second best tournament character" and all that hype. Wario is the new hype for sure, yet his huge weakness of grab releases has already been addressed. He could stay where he is. Or the whole 'air camping' thing that suddenly made him better than D3 in the match up, and supposibly an advantage on Snake, well... who knows if that hype will be controlled (just like Falco has) or he'll stay third.

As I think D3 is no.3, I know he'll probably drop... *sigh*.

 

[uhmuzing]

Shaya, where do you think Marth will land?

 

[Browny]

did you even read his previous post lol... he said 6th

btw what do people think of my little project...
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=229123

Its coming to its final stages now :O personnaly, i think raise IC by a few places and its pretty accurate

 

[uhmuzing]

did you even read his previous post lol... he said 6th

Oh... I missed that somehow.

 

[Sieguest]

IC's must move up, must!! for reasons previously stated.
I think marth, diddy, and Cpt. Falcon should move up too...
And I don't think MK should have his own tier anymore...IMO

 

[Shaya]

Marth will probably drop to allow Diddy Kong and Wario to go above him.

How other characters drop to compensate is 'who knows'