Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Swamp Sensei]

So, do you think we'll ever get a Retro character again?

 

[Perkilator]

So, do you think we'll ever get a Retro character again?

Maybe if Sakurai wants to revisit the idea of Ayumi and/or Takamaru, at the very least.

 

[BritishGuy54]

So, do you think we'll ever get a Retro character again?

My bets are on Isaac being a retro character next game, even though he’s from the GBA.

The times are changing.

 

[fogbadge]

So, do you think we'll ever get a Retro character again?

it’s possible and it’s good place to go for unexpected picks

 

[Ivander]

So, do you think we'll ever get a Retro character again?

Yes I do think we'll get another one. Which one we'll get I'm not certain, but we still have a bunch yet to get in that I can see happen.

 

[Louie G.]

So, do you think we'll ever get a Retro character again?

I've had Excitebiker in my pocket for a bit now, I think they have a good shot next time around. Excitebike remains one of the more commonly references Arcade / Famicom titles across retro throwback material, WarioWare, NES Remix etc. and the series has a more fruitful life outside of its first title than most of its contemporaries. There are a solid few great choices like Takamaru or Sukapon, but I'm really not confident in any of the Japanese exclusive retros unless they see some new life in the future. Excitebike might be the only one left in its relative circle... closest comparison point being Duck Hunt, and most other games joining it being longstanding series like Super Mario Bros, Legend of Zelda or Metroid. Sometimes Kid Icarus, Ice Climber, Punch-Out... you get the picture.

I don't see anything from 2000s onward ever being treated as retro. Perhaps nothing beyond the Super Nintendo, and even that doesn't have very much precedent. "Retro", as the community and Sakurai seem to understand it (although Sakurai has never actually used this term), is celebratory of early Nintendo history. Sure, the scale of what's retro and what isn't is in flux but the trend of favoring arcade or Famicom titles has not been broken and Nintendo themselves are still enamored with this era. Nintendo World Championship just came out to shed light on their foundational years yet again. Before that it was NES Remix. 8-Bit Mario and Link persist throughout merchandising and in-game reference material. When Nintendo aims retro, it's usually this.

Also, on topic with Ayumi, how would we treat this character? The recent release of Emio makes her contemporary again - but we can look at Little Mac and judge how this kind of character is treated. I believe Little Mac is treated mostly as a classic throwback character, with his emphasis on his arcade roots and the relatively minimal content from his series. So I feel like Ayumi may instead fall into this grey area of "kinda retro, kinda not".

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I kinda don't like the "Sakurai gave a moveset to X character, he can give one to any character!" argument, cause most movesets still have references to the games, even for the characters who don't fight. Also even if he could give anyone a moveset, that doesn't mean he could give anyone an interesting moveset.

With that said, I don't have much idea at all of what Ayumi could do. Pauline on the other hand, could attack with music notes and stuff from the Mario vs Donkey Kong series.

 

[Geno Boost]

Maybe if Sakurai wants to revisit the idea of Ayumi and/or Takamaru, at the very least.

i dont think ayumi count anymore since she got revival

 

[Kirby Dragons]

So, do you think we'll ever get a Retro character again?

Ultimate not adding one worries me, as Nintendo might want to focus on stuff they can promote. But if they do want to add one, there's plenty of options.

 

[Louie G.]

Ultimate not adding one worries me, as Nintendo might want to focus on stuff they can promote. But if they do want to add one, there's plenty of options.

In defense of Ultimate, they had such limited space that I wouldn't read much into it. Between the fan favorites (Ridley, K. Rool), essential modern all-stars (Inkling, Isabelle) and obligatory Pokemon (Incineroar) I don't think any addition was expendable. Perhaps from some angle we could argue Simon is kinda retro, but no more than we can say Mega Man is. For the record, I wouldn't really classify either of them as such, guest characters are kind of their own beast.

Smash 4 may or may not have a retro character, instead just kind of has retro essence peppered throughout multiple newcomers. But as time passes I've reasoned with myself that Little Mac is essentially treated like the game's throwback character with such strong emphasis on his roots (and minimal representation). As far as we know Sakurai doesn't really set aside a proper "retro" slot like he does a "surprise" character (Duck Hunt is the latter, that’s why I didn’t mention them), but it does at least seem to be a trend he enjoys. If next game's newcomer lineup is a healthier amount than last time, I think there's a strong chance we see the trend return.

Although perhaps now the line has kinda blurred between retro pick and weirdo wtf character. I could see someone like Excitebiker slotting in as either one, being more unorthodox and less defined as a character.

 

[Sucumbio]

I feel as if a retro character can still have a resurgence and not lose he status.

 

[Megadoomer]

Ultimate not adding one worries me, as Nintendo might want to focus on stuff they can promote. But if they do want to add one, there's plenty of options.

To be fair, Ultimate had six unique newcomers in the base roster, so that isn't a lot of space to dedicate to a retro character. (though arguably Simon Belmont qualifies)

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

So, do you think we'll ever get a Retro character again?

I think that depends on what we consider a retro. If we're just talking like a character from a game from like 20+ years ago, I think Isaac has a shot.

If we're talking characters like Ice Climbers, G&W, ROB, and Duck Hunt, I think that depends because all four of them also represent an aspect of hardware. Ice Climbers were chosen in Melee to represent the NES and its myriad of one off titles, G&W represents Nintendo's first ever game system, ROB is his own peripheral, and Duck Hunt represents the NES/Famicom light gun and the games that used it.

I think for another character like them they may need another piece of hardware or a peripheral to represent, and the only one of those I can really think of beyond the NES (and the Super Scope that's still gonna be an item) is like the Virtual Boy lol

 

[Laniv]

Seeing people suggest Nabbit as a Smash fighter, even jokingly, is delightful

So, do you think we'll ever get a Retro character again?

Takamaru's time is now, I think. That said, I think we'll have to expand the definition of "retro" to at least include N64, GameCube, and GBA titles.

By this logic, Captain Rainbow is a retro character.

 

[Ivander]

Ultimate not adding one worries me, as Nintendo might want to focus on stuff they can promote. But if they do want to add one, there's plenty of options.

I mean, for one, they were bringing back every character from past games, so that was definitely a factor. Two, there was a focus on bringing characters that people wanted and voted for on the Smash Ballot, between characters like Ridley, King K.Rool, Chrom, Dark Samus, Castlevania, Banjo-Kazooie and Sora. So that's another factor.

I wouldn't worry much about Retro characters not being picked until we start not seeing them picked on a daily basis. Ultimate was really the only one to not bring in a retro character(although I'd argue that Simon Belmont is pretty close to that Retro stature, since his look was based on his pre-PS1 incarnations rather his later Kojima/red hair look). I'd only worry if the next game doesn't have one.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Eh. Characters like Megaman, Simon or even Banjo are pretty much retro in my mind. At least in the way they're portrayed. Their looks and abilities are extremely faithful to their original games, just modernized.
For example, if Megaman wasn't explicitely designed to match his NES incarnation as much as possible, maybe I wouldn't count him as a retro character? But it's clear that the intention with him was partly to make him as big of a throwback as possible.

In this sense I think that we'll keep getting a decent amount of retro characters. Characters who haven't shown up in a while but who carry a lot of nostalgia which their Smash design intentionally taps into.
Absolutely random stuff like the Ice Climbers though? Those days are over in my opinion.

 

[HyperSomari64]

By this logic, Captain Rainbow is a retro character.

Cptn. Rainbow is from the DS/Wii era.
In that case, the 3DS and Wii U are officially "retro".
(Why GameStop?)

 

[ninjahmos]

So, do you think we'll ever get a Retro character again?

If we do, I think Takamaru and/or Isaac might be next. Or possibly Excitebiker.

 

[Pupp135]

So, do you think we'll ever get a Retro character again?

Even if we reduced the definition of retro to solely the NES era, I think that there’s a chance where we’ll see a retro fighter. My best guess would be Excitebike Rider given that he’d best fit the role of traditional surprise fighter that’s been in place since Mr. Game & Watch. Even then, there is still potential for characters like Takamaru, Balloon Fighter (It’s cool to see Crusade modders/developers make him work), and Mach Rider if they interest the developers enough. If we extend it out to what I call retro, which is anything pre-3DS at this point, Isaac seems to be the main highlight given that he’s a large request. Even then, we still have characters like Lip, Ray MK III, Saki, and Alex Rovias. At the moment, a retro fighter would fill one of these niches: surprise fighter like Mr. Game & Watch or R.O.B., largely requested fighter, or a fighter that strikes the developers’ interest like Pit.

In terms of a fighter being added for the sake of being retro, that’s probably not going to happen again as Ice Climbers seem to be the only real instance of this.

 

[BuckleyTim]

I wonder how much longer the Ballot will be used for any general roster / assist trophy picking. That data's nearing a decade of age at this point, and honestly they've gotten the majority of the community's desires at least a nod, if not full-blown playable status.

 

[ShotoStar]

So, do you think we'll ever get a Retro character again?

Given that Smash as a franchise will continue on as long as it continues to make Nintendo money, from a list of potential candidates given enough time we absolutely will. However, I don't really think that's what you're asking here -- I think it's more interesting to address it within the immediate future and in that sense I think it depends on the scope of newcomers next game. Smash Ultimate was a bit of an exception with it's very, very limited newcomer count in Base Game being a total of only 6 unique and then a handful of echo fighters. This accounts for Ultimate not giving us a retro pick as a retro character was simply out prioritized and wouldn't fit well into DLC regardless of if they did it ala Smash 4 or in pass-structure as they chose to do. The only way a retro would've been chosen in Ultimate is if it was a Little Mac type situation who was/is heavily associated with retro consoles but had a revitalized entry -- perhaps Ayumi Tachibana would've been the best choice for this had DLC gone on for a bit longer.

So Ultimate's a bit of an exception, every other entry since Melee has given us one retro character or a "WTF pick" typically aligning with choosing a retro character since I'd assume the developers, Sakurai included, have an affinty for those type of homages. Sakurai and Co. tend to see Nintendo characters from the Arcade/Famicom era as these "Retro picks" but that's mostly what we can gather from an observational standpoint. We don't really know if Sakurai and Co. have any line drawn in the sand for what they consider "Retro" afaik. Assuming the trend continues, assuming the base newcomer count isn't as limited as it was in Ultimate, I do think a Famicom era Nintendo character will be included as a "WTF pick" or "Retro pick" however you view it -- and in that case I think Excitebiker makes the most sense given their unique characteristics of being a biker. My preference would be for Mach Rider however if we're following this train of thought since they can use projectiles and have more potential imo. As well though, if Sakurai and co. consider "retro picks" in a broader sense I think Isaac could make for a great "retro pick" given Golden Sun is 20+ years old.

Idk why I'm such a verbose person, I just like to ramble I'm sorry lol. Tldr; yes, I think we'll get a retro pick and that pick will probably be Excitebiker/Mach Rider and Isaac from Golden Sun if I had to guess

 

[Dukefire]

Do you think Zelda, Link and Ganondorf may get another change in appearance for the next Smash Bros?

 

[Perkilator]

Do you think Zelda, Link and Ganondorf may get another change in appearance for the next Smash Bros?View attachment 393909

I’ve said this before and I’ll do it again: Ganondorf needs a TotK-flavored overhaul.

 

[Louie G.]

Do you think Zelda, Link and Ganondorf may get another change in appearance for the next Smash Bros?

Ganondorf and Zelda maybe, Link probably nothing major. If anything changes then it will be all of them being updated to their TOTK designs, I don’t foresee Zelda pulling much from Echoes of Wisdom since it’s so stylistically abstracted from her normal appearance and proportion.

I’m pretty sure Ganondorf will be brought in line with TOTK, at that point for consistency sake I just expect Zelda to be updated and round it out.

 

[Ivander]

Do you think Zelda, Link and Ganondorf may get another change in appearance for the next Smash Bros?View attachment 393909

Maybe? Link and Ganondorf might get their Tears of the Kingdom looks, though Link might get his ToTK design as an Alt compared to Ganondorf. Zelda is anybody's guess. She changed from OoT to TP from Melee to Brawl, stayed as TP instead of going to Skyward Sword for Smash 4, then changed from her TP look to her ALttP look for Ultimate. Like they could change her to the TotK version if they wanted to, but Zelda has kept a previous look before.
That said, I do not see Zelda getting her Echoes of Wisdom look as a default. As an alternate costume, maybe, but Echoes of Wisdom Zelda looks more like she would be her own thing rather than the new default for Zelda.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Characters like Megaman, Simon or even Banjo are pretty much retro in my mind.

I don't consider characters past the SNES to be retro. And I never will!

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

So, do you think we'll ever get a Retro character again?

I'm replying to this again but mostly because I just realized you capitalized this and may have in fact been referring to Retro Studios as an elaborate bit, so I'll throw a quick requisite mention to Sylux on the off chance that I have been duped somehow lmao

 

[Kirbeh]

To briefly touch on Pauline again, what are peoples' thoughts on the Minis?

I more commonly see people embrace the idea of making her focused on Odyssey by playing into the music performer angle, either that or making use of props from the original arcade game.

The Minis however, often seem to be more divisive, I guess?

I think they're a pretty important part of her history given that the Mario vs DK series is pretty much where she appeared exclusively up until Odyssey.

I don't think her entire moveset should be focused on them, but I've always envisioned a playable Pauline as a sort of cross between P4U Rise and MvC Tron Bonne. Obviously leaning more towards Rise, but I could see the Mini Marios being Pauline's equivalent to Servbots.

 

[DarthEnderX]

To briefly touch on Pauline again, what are peoples' thoughts on the Minis?

It's a mediocre Lemmings clone.

 

[SPEN18]

To briefly touch on Pauline again, what are peoples' thoughts on the Minis?

I more commonly see people embrace the idea of making her focused on Odyssey by playing into the music performer angle, either that or making use of props from the original arcade game.

The Minis however, often seem to be more divisive, I guess?

I think they're a pretty important part of her history given that the Mario vs DK series is pretty much where she appeared exclusively up until Odyssey.

I don't think her entire moveset should be focused on them, but I've always envisioned a playable Pauline as a sort of cross between P4U Rise and MvC Tron Bonne. Obviously leaning more towards Rise, but I could see the Mini Marios being Pauline's equivalent to Servbots.

I haven't put a ton of thought into a Pauline moveset, but they could probably be snuck in as a down or neutral special or something without being too much at odds with the rest of the kit.

 

[cashregister9]

Do you think Zelda, Link and Ganondorf may get another change in appearance for the next Smash Bros?View attachment 393909

Personally I like that each Zelda character represents a different game in the franchise

Link is BOTW, Zelda is ALBW/ALTTP, Ganon is OOT, Toon Link is WW, Young Link is MM and Sheik.... is also OOT (and BOTW? Kinda?)

I hope Link is changed to Skyward Sword/Twilight Princess (really any more "traditional" Link) and Ganon is changed to Tears Of The Kingdom, I think it would get some more variety in there.

 

[Borskaboska]

So, do you think we'll ever get a Retro character again?

I gotta be honest, this conversation confuses me. Does K Rool and Simon not count as retro?

To briefly touch on Pauline again, what are peoples' thoughts on the Minis?

I more commonly see people embrace the idea of making her focused on Odyssey by playing into the music performer angle, either that or making use of props from the original arcade game.

The Minis however, often seem to be more divisive, I guess?

I think they're a pretty important part of her history given that the Mario vs DK series is pretty much where she appeared exclusively up until Odyssey.

I don't think her entire moveset should be focused on them, but I've always envisioned a playable Pauline as a sort of cross between P4U Rise and MvC Tron Bonne. Obviously leaning more towards Rise, but I could see the Mini Marios being Pauline's equivalent to Servbots.

I think it would be funny if she had a move where a big red i-beam falls from the sky like in the arcade donkey kong.

 

[Louie G.]

I gotta be honest, this conversation confuses me. Does K Rool and Simon not count as retro?

Typically "retro" label in the community refers to a throwback Nintendo character, like Ice Climbers or Pit. As a general descriptor I think everyone is going to have a different perspective, but here I'm pretty sure it's referring to the Arcade / Famicom era characters that get added to celebrate old school Nintendo history. K. Rool being from an evergreen series and Simon being a guest character kind of conflict with this sentiment.

Back in the day we used to kinda figure there was a designated slot for this in each game, which is why certain characters like Takamaru became prominent talking points, but that doesn't really seem like it was ever the case. Although you could make the case for Little Mac, and Duck Hunt exists (as the 'surprise' character), while Ultimate just didn't have a whole lot of room.

 

[BuckleyTim]

Plant is technically retro but saying that gets you groaned out of the room.

 

[SPEN18]

Yeah it's just an incredibly vague terminology without further qualification. That's why I like to use more specific designations like "NES retro," "80s retro," or etc. when necessary, and I like the phrasing "legacy characters" when I'm just talking about older or inactive characters more generally.

If we're just asking if an older and/or inactive character will become playable, then yeah, it's pretty much guaranteed because every Smash sequel has had someone of that sort. The more interesting question, though, is whether there will be a specific spot held exclusively for a character like that, a la the Ice Climber spot, and also whether or not that spot would be limited in scope to only NES or 80s characters. Although even then, we've seen older and inactive characters get in through multiple other means, be that popularity, surprise factor, particular interest taken from the devs, recent revival, or etc., so even the answer there is not an end-all-be-all.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It's kind of a simple thing; Sakurai wanted a character specifically to represent a Retro slot. Ice Climbers was chosen among a bunch of many characters.

Mr. Game & Watch and Duck Hunt are toted as Surprise characters, same as Piranha Plant too.

So us getting someone with a Retro slot in mind again isn't that likely overall. Not that it can't happen. Anyone among his choices that he rooted out to get to Ice Climbers could even possibly count.

But as of now, no other one has existed. That said, it's not like characters can't be Retro in terms of other ways; when their last new game was, their specific aesthetics(like Pac-Man represents the Retro Arcade stuff of course, but it doesn't make him a Retro Slot either way). Etc.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Since Isaac's been coming up a little bit with the retro talk, I just wanted to quickly mention how suddenly Golden Sun's representation kinda shot up in Ultimate and makes me think he probably did pretty okay for himself on the Ballot potentially and he'll hopefully be playable next game.

In Brawl he had his Assist Trophy with one attack, Move. He had a trophy for himself, and there was one remix on Norfair. No stickers or anything, which is kind of hilarious in retrospect because a game like Magical Starsign got 3 trophies and like 5 Stickers, but it came out in 2006 while the last Golden Sun game was in 2002 and the next one wouldn't be until 2010, so it's understandable with Brawl smack dab in the middle of Golden Sun's hibernation pre-Dark Dawn.

In Smash 4, Isaac's Assist Trophy does not return, and his series has no regular trophies at all even in Smash 3DS (despite Eddy from Fluidity getting one when Fluidity is a 2010 WiiWare release, the same year Dark Dawn released), he just retains the Brawl remix on Norfair and adds Weyard (the overworld theme of Dark Dawn) to the music selection on Palutena's Temple.

In Ultimate, Isaac returns as an Assist Trophy along with using Move, but can also use Pound, Lift, and Teleport as additions to his kit. He received a Mii Costume, both of his music tracks returned, and Golden Sun has 8 Spirits: Isaac himself, his appearance in Dark Dawn as an upgrade, Garet, Mia, Felix, Matthew, Ivan, and Jenna.

I'm hoping this means he's at least on the radar for the team, since even though I haven't really played much of Golden Sun, I know he's pretty popular around here and somewhat generally (I mean he won the New Franchises section of Swamp's poll and was sixth overall when he hit 500 votes), and I have a friend who's crazy for Golden Sun and they've wanted Isaac since pre-Smash 4.

 

[ninjahmos]

So, do you think we'll ever get a Retro character again?

If we do, I think Takamaru and/or Isaac might be next. Or possibly Excitebiker.

Or it could even be Ayumi Tachibana, if she still counts as retro. Who knows?

BTW Does Chibi-Robo count as retro?

 

[SPEN18]

I keep saying it but everyone seems to forget how in the Ballot days Isaac was literally hanging with the likes of KRool and Banjo in polling. He's very popular.
And if you look at the overall history, Golden Sun is technically as big a series as, like, Kid Icarus. It has oodles of moveset potential with Isaac filling a unique niche through earth- and plant-based abilities in addition to the eye-catching hand moves showcased by his ATs (and that's not even getting into the possibilities of Djinn mechanics or other iconic and flashy options like Ragnarok). Isaac checks a lot of boxes.

 

[Louie G.]

I personally think Isaac is very likely, he just doesn't come to mind when I think "retro". But in the context of simply bringing back inactive characters or series he is handily the frontrunner in my opinion. That's coming from someone who was pretty damn critical of his chances up til now... the amount of love dealt toward Isaac and Golden Sun in Ultimate in contrast with most other series of that caliber has me believe he just barely missed the cut.

I dunno if NSO really means anything, but they made a pretty big deal out of the two GBA Golden Sun titles hitting the platform. It seems that Nintendo is aware of the series' cult popularity and legacy within fan circles, which is a nice bit of affirmation.