Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[DarthEnderX]

I think Sakurai just needed to be creative. I mean, much later and after, Ace Attorney can be said to have not much action too, and look how Phoenix Wright plays in Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3.

That kind of creativity usually just ends up being "character throws objects from their series".

 

[CannonStreak]

That kind of creativity usually just ends up being "character throws objects from their series".

From what I have seen, Phoenix Wright's moveset in UMvC3 is more unorthodox than just throwing objects. It could work for a game like Smash Bros.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Ever since that MySims bundle was announced, I've started feeling nostalgic for those games again: played both Kingdom and Agents a bunch as a kid, though never finished the latter. I doubt that series will get into Smash, ESPECIALLY not before the main series, but I've even started coming up with possible moveset ideas for a hypothetical "MySim" character. My mind can be like that sometimes...

 

[Louie G.]

Also can't help but wonder what Sakurai had in mind for Ayumi way back then. There's not really much action in these games it seems.

Once upon a time this was probably the appeal of Ayumi, being an unexpected fighter. Back in Melee most of the characters made a degree of sense, or were at least in series where there was action or they had show some capability in the past. So Ayumi would have stood out a bunch scrambling around throwing props and doing mystery stuff. Probably somewhat close to the way a silly game like Pocket Fighter presents itself.

I still think there's strong potential in exploring the VN genre in Smash today, but I wonder if this concept just isn't as novel as it used to be. After the likes of Villager and Wii Fit Trainer I think our expectations of who could be turned into a capable fighter are limitless. I think Darth's assessment of this is quite a bit more negative than my own, but I do feel like that's a reasonable concern when Smash has a solid handful of fighters like that already.

 

[Shinuto]

Ultimate did showcase that certain indie characters was on Sakurai's radar and almost made it as a fighter. Sad to some people, but at least had their presence known with mii costumes and/or spirits.

If another Smash Bros is announced, what are their chances to try again?
View attachment 393884

High, Shovel Knight got huge uproar from AT reveal, Shantae was noted as part of highly demanded group of characters and Sans and Cuphead mii costume reveals reactions speak for themselves

 

[superprincess]

Mario Party is off Pauline's checklist!

One multiplayer party game remains...

 

[Louie G.]

I admit that I am slowly but surely taking Pauline more seriously as a candidate for the next game. Between a potential music / singing themed moveset as well as capacity to adopt certain Cappy mechanics from Odyssey, there's a lot of meat to pick from the bone. Not even mentioning her history with the Donkey Kong games, which gives her some extra historical value to boot.

For me however it still may feel like something of a monkey's paw. I really want a playable musician in Smash. With the crop of choices consisting of a Rhythm Heaven character, KK Slider, the Splatoon idols and so forth, part of me feels it would be a bit tacky if the one who won out was effectively a one hit wonder LOL. (Okay, two hits, because I think Break Free is great, but you get what I mean.) I adore Jump Up Superstar but I would feel a bit burnt if that one standout moment carried her all the way here over other more compelling candidates who largely offer the same thing.

But in the event that she does become playable, I'm trying to convince myself this wouldn't be such a bad idea using some of the potential paths that I mentioned before. I'm almost a bit interested to build an idealistic moveset for her to explore this a bit further. For one thing, I believe using her micstand as a makeshift staff would be charming. And I think if they let her don the mayor hat and carry the micstand around, she would be quite visually dynamic. Right now when contemplating a potential second Mario character addition, I'm somewhere between her and King Boo for more of a surprise creative choice.

 

[Noipoi]

"Waluigi's gonna be the new Mario character!"
"No, Geno!"
"Paper Mario!"
"TOAD!"

Pauline:

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I like Pauline a lot, but she still isn't doing well on the poll, lmao.

 

[Shinuto]

Mario Party is off Pauline's checklist!

One multiplayer party game remains...

Mario Baseball!

 

[Louie G.]

I like Pauline a lot, but she still isn't doing well on the poll, lmao.

I think it's definitely the kind of character most people would have to see in action first. She doesn't really "do" anything explicit to inform her role in an action game and doesn't have the strong character driven antics that someone like Waluigi does, so I think at face value she's a little bit uninteresting unless you make the effort to weave together some fun ideas for her... where she does blossom quite a bit into a more fun and versatile character. But like I mentioned before, I think if people want a music oriented fighter (which is naturally one of her best avenues toward inclusion right now) they may be more inclined to vote for more engaging or diverse character choices.

Which is to say she seems popular among the Mario community, but it's not quite the kind of popularity that will translate directly over to Smash. But knowing who is placing highly on the Mario side of the poll... well, let's say I think we're more likely to see something a little less sought after and a bit more experimental as our potential second Mario insert, be it someone like her or King Boo. But I may be underestimating Paper Mario a tad.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Pauline is in an ideal spot for stuff like the sports titles, Mario Party, and Kart because all characters in those largely play the same with some small quirks.

Smash necessitates an individual moveset, very specific animations, and balances much more complicated than what's necessary in the above titles. She could pop up, but it would take quite the inspiration/creation by Sakurai and company to do it.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I don't think Pauline's chances are all that high. Her appearance in Super Mario Odyssey will get her into the consideration phase, but unless Sakurai gets a whole lot of inspiration for her, she doesn't have anything else going for her, and her competition is steep.

 

[Ivander]

but unless Sakurai gets a whole lot of inspiration for her, she doesn't have anything else going for her, and her competition is steep.

looks at Villager, Wii Fit Trainer, Rosalina & Luma, Duck Hunt and Isabelle

 

[Louie G.]

I don't think Pauline's chances are all that high. Her appearance in Super Mario Odyssey will get her into the consideration phase, but unless Sakurai gets a whole lot of inspiration for her, she doesn't have anything else going for her, and her competition is steep.

I'm starting to question how steep her competition is frankly, because I'm unfortunately not all that convinced that Toad's chances have drastically improved and while Paper Mario is feasible I wonder if there would be hesitation to start adding more alternate versions of existing characters. Paper Mario has kind of been on a roll recently, so I dunno. Out of the more standard choices he might be one of the stronger ones, I guess he's in the running. Geno doesn't count as far as I'm concerned, he'd be judged independently of his role in the Mario universe. Assuming these characters are added for their mass appeal, he doesn't really fit into the puzzle.

I'm also disqualifying Waluigi, because I strongly believe he will be in the game. And there's sort of an unspoken rule, at least in my mind, that we are likely to see at least two Mario / Marioverse characters per Smash game. Every other game before this one lends itself to this and assuming next roster will have a normal amount of 12-15 newcomers, I'd consider it a statistical likelihood. Waluigi plus one feels like the move, and with upside down L being the clear fan favorite I think the second choice might skew on the side of experimentation and inspiration. And my rule of thumb is if I can think of it, Sakurai definitely can.

So under that guise I think Pauline, or King Boo, are strong candidates that offer more abstract but potentially unique moveset potential. I don't like comparing Pauline to Rosalina at all, since Rosa is far more important to Galaxy as a whole, but in this context I will - she is a character built from creative liberties. She takes elements from Mario Galaxy, but few that we actively see her perform and they are interpreted in creative ways here. All it took for Sakurai was to see Rosalina in one game and craft a puppeteer moveset... she was cited as "from Mario Galaxy" in the project plan, and it predated any knowledge of something like 3D World. So I feel like this is not such a barrier when Pauline's role and the time you spend with her in Mario Odyssey is such a standout moment of that game.

I'm not totally convinced Pauline will be playable. But I think she's pretty comfortably sitting among the top three candidates not named Waluigi, and I think we are highly likely to see a second Mario character from that crop make the jump over to playability also.

 

[AreJay25]

The idea of Pauline of all characters needing a ton of inspiration to make playable is a funny one to me, considering this series literally has a tradition of making something out of nothing.


Remember these two? At the time of Smash 64, they were essentially just pilots who barely did anything outside of their vehicles. You didn't even physically SEE Falcon outside of the select screen in F-Zero X.



How about these goofballs? The duck literally just flies on the screen to get shot. The dog picks up the duck or laughs at you. That's it.

If Sakurai could make these guys work, Pauline really shouldn't be THAT difficult lmao. I don't even think she's super likely or anything.

 

[Louie G.]

The idea of Pauline of all characters needing a ton of inspiration to make playable is a funny one to me, considering this series literally has a tradition of making something out of nothing.


Remember these two? At the time of Smash 64, they were essentially just pilots who barely did anything outside of their vehicles. You didn't even physically SEE Falcon outside of the select screen in F-Zero X.



How about these goofballs? The duck literally just flies on the screen to get shot. The dog picks up the duck or laughs at you. That's it.

If Sakurai could make these guys work, Pauline really shouldn't be THAT difficult lmao. I don't even think she's super likely or anything.

In fairness to the opposing viewpoint, I think the argument is moreso that her competition poses more potential than she does. Which isn't necessarily true either, but I think it's quite a bit different than being one of the main characters of your series and weaving something together. If you want to represent Star Fox, you need to add Fox. Pauline is inessential, so if the inspiration isn't there then it won't happen.

I agree with your sentiment here on principle. Personally though, I don't even think Pauline has this problem, I think her moveset potential is pretty obvious if you sit with it for more than a minute. But the "how" shouldn't be the question, moreso the "why".

 

[Guynamednelson]

One multiplayer party game remains...

Of course!

We still need to see her in a baseball g-oops 'd. Um...Mario Hoops?

 

[fogbadge]

as soon as you all start to think it will be Pauline, that's when it will be Nabbit

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

Mario Party is off Pauline's checklist!

One multiplayer party game remains...

Oh? Context?

 

[Kirbeh]

as soon as you all start to think it will be Pauline, that's when it will be Nabbit

Nabbit nabbing the invitations during their reveal trailer would be fun.

Also, less related but I started playing Zenless Zone Zero like 2 weeks ago and kept thinking that the Bangboos reminded me of something but I just couldn't quite remember what. I now realize it was Nabbit.

 

[cashregister9]

It's actually their time to shine

 

[Gorgonzales]

All of you are wrong. Our next Mario character will be Eario.

He will sweep-a the fallen bodies of his enemies off-a the stage.

 

[BuckleyTim]

It's actually their time to shine

that's right! fall guy from fall guys!

 

[toonito]

meowscarada for smash 6 is kinda growing on me and its mainly because of the shared dark typing it has with and

 

[ninjahmos]

No, you've all got it wrong. This will be our next Mario character:

 

[Ivander]

All of you are wrong. Our next Mario character will be Eario.

He will sweep-a the fallen bodies of his enemies off-a the stage.

View attachment 393905View attachment 393906

And he comes with Iolui, Uigiy and Ariol too.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Mario Hoops?

Just throw in Geno and Mallow (and maybe Cloud) if Square returns.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Delzethin put up a hypothetical Zelda fighting game roster. Pretty decent list, though much like the lack of Bass in the base roster of Thorgi's hypothetical Mega Man fighter slightly annoyed me, I have to admit not having

Spoiler

Vaati

in this does the same thing. The choice of the main villain is an interesting selection and it did have me thinking about how some of these characters could work in Smash.

 

[Speed Weed]

Delzethin put up a hypothetical Zelda fighting game roster. Pretty decent list, though much like the lack of Bass in the base roster of Thorgi's hypothetical Mega Man fighter slightly annoyed me, I have to admit not having

Spoiler

Vaati

in this does the same thing. The choice of the main villain is an interesting selection and it did have me thinking about how some of these characters could work in Smash.

Haven't watched the video yet, but I honestly get not including Vaati because doesn't he have some ownership issues with Capcom?

 

[HyperSomari64]

Vaati will join Marvel vs. Capcom 4

 

[fogbadge]

Haven't watched the video yet, but I honestly get not including Vaati because doesn't he have some ownership issues with Capcom?

he does not. he was created by nintendo and is owned by nintendo. even the three games that capcom made are owned by nintendo

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Haven't watched the video yet, but I honestly get not including Vaati because doesn't he have some ownership issues with Capcom?

I suspect its less outright ownership and more of a deference in not using characters they didn't fully create (not unlike how it took a while for Nintendo to make broader use of the Kongs after Rare was bought by Microsoft even though they owned the characters. I mean he got in Four Swords Adventures, which was not developed by Capcom, so at the very least use of him seems okay. I often wonder if him not getting in Hyrule Warriors was not an ownership issue either and more of a case of Koei Tecmo not terribly fond of using a character that had any strong connection to Capcom given their past enmity but who knows?

 

[Ivander]

Haven't watched the video yet, but I honestly get not including Vaati because doesn't he have some ownership issues with Capcom?

I don't think so? I know Capcom did the Oracle games, the first Four Swords and Minish Cap, but I don't think they were involved with Four Swords Adventure and Vaati was there. And the Oracle designs for Nayru and Din would also be used for their Wind Waker statue designs. So I think Nintendo fully owns them?

I often wonder if him not getting in Hyrule Warriors was not an ownership issue either and more of a case of Koei Tecmo not terribly fond of using a character that had any strong connection to Capcom given their past enmity but who knows?

Less past enmity and more outright enmity, because before Capcom and Koei Tecmo didn't really care about each other(their only "Take that" moments at each other mainly regarding Samurai Warriors and Sengoku Basara) until Capcom decided to sue Koei Tecmo regarding mechanics in their Warriors games(despite the fact that the Warrior games came first before Sengoku Basara) and Capcom did this after Hyrule Warriors's announcement and near it's release date and boy, was Koei ******.
So I wouldn't blame Koei Tecmo for not using any of the characters from Capcom-developed games because even if the characters were fully owned by Nintendo, I'm pretty sure Koei was not going to touch any character in one of the Capcom-developed games out of spite for what Capcom did.

 

[SPEN18]

Pauline and Nabbit are fine characters who have been gradually accruing merit, though I still think Waluigi and Toad are the ones with truly mass appeal both in and out of the Smash-centric fanbase. I'm inclined to think at least one of the latter two would be given first dibs on a spot, unless there's a Rosalina-esque case of very favorable conditions for a certain character. Though for a second Mario character on top maybe they'd see more room to explore a more dark-horse option, possibly, even if in Smash 4 the Bowser Jr spot was still going to a massively popular character.
So I guess the gist is that the likes of Pauline, Nabbit, or even King Boo still feel more like contrarian options than frontrunners, due to the longstanding hyper-casual appeal of Toad or Waluigi. But there is enough going for them that a particular fancy from the devs would give them a chance, and even if they miss Smash 6, if they continue on the upward trajectory then their chances may only improve.

 

[Louie G.]

So I guess the gist is that the likes of Pauline, Nabbit, or even King Boo still feel more like contrarian options than frontrunners, due to the longstanding hyper-casual appeal of Toad or Waluigi. But there is enough going for them that a particular fancy from the devs would give them a chance, and even if they miss Smash 6, if they continue on the upward trajectory then their chances may only improve.

I agree with that sentiment, and I'm essentially expecting one mass appeal pick and one more ambitious "surprise" choice. It may be controversial to suggest as much, but I feel like both Smash 4 and Ultimate abide by this framework. Rosalina's lasting popularity and later prominence in the series feels like an added bonus to a character who was otherwise added because she was pretty cool in Mario Galaxy, and had a distinct gameplay hook worth exploring. Whereas Bowser Jr was the rising star of the franchise and had begun a streak of being kind of the defacto New Super Mario Bros character. Daisy and Piranha Plant speak for themselves - Plant has "mass appeal" in that he's widely recognizable, but as a playable character is obviously something nobody saw coming or was deliberately asking for.

In a similar vein I think most people know King Boo from Mario Kart by now or will remember Pauline's role in Odyssey. Nabbit is a bit more dubious because you could probably play through NSMBU or Wonder in its entirety and forget he exists. Which is to say at least 2/3 of these stride the line nicely between "oh yeah I know that character" and "I didn't expect to see them here!" Just adding Waluigi and Toad and leaving it there just feels way too safe on its own to me.

Although I wonder if the capacity to expand on other highly popular series with general audiences (like Zelda or Animal Crossing) may distract them from putting too many eggs into the Mario basket this time. Probably not, but it does feel like the Switch era has allowed a couple other series to reach near Mario levels of success that they had not in the past. On the other hand, the Mario brand is arguably bigger now than it's ever been. Chances are they'll just spread the love, lol.

 

[Pupp135]

No, you've all got it wrong. This will be our next Mario character:

I’m going to raise the ante, and this is going to be the next newcomer:

 

[YeppersPeppers]

Having just played through the Famicom Detective Club games, including Emio, I'd really love to see the series get even just a bit more in Smash aside from a single spirit. I don't expect a fighter to happen even with a new game under the series' belt, but even an assist trophy and a new arrangement or two would be fantastic (a good number of songs just ripe for arranging). An Emio Mii costume would be pretty perfect, even.

 

[Noipoi]

No, you've all got it wrong. This will be our next Mario character:

It would be so awesome...

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Once upon a time this was probably the appeal of Ayumi, being an unexpected fighter. Back in Melee most of the characters made a degree of sense, or were at least in series where there was action or they had show some capability in the past. So Ayumi would have stood out a bunch scrambling around throwing props and doing mystery stuff. Probably somewhat close to the way a silly game like Pocket Fighter presents itself.

I still think there's strong potential in exploring the VN genre in Smash today, but I wonder if this concept just isn't as novel as it used to be. After the likes of Villager and Wii Fit Trainer I think our expectations of who could be turned into a capable fighter are limitless. I think Darth's assessment of this is quite a bit more negative than my own, but I do feel like that's a reasonable concern when Smash has a solid handful of fighters like that already.

I don't know about that. X character throwing around random stuff from their game of origin has never been Sakurai's style, even back in the more free-flowing days of Smash 64/Melee.
And yeah, I know, that's essentially what Mr. Game & Watch and Villager do, but... Maybe it's because they're more cartoony but in their cases it feels more natural to me.
Also, at least in Emio, there's not even many objects to reference in the case of FDC? 90% of the gameplay is asking questions. My guess he would have come up with a very "meta" moveset. Though who knows.