Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I personally think Isaac is very likely, he just doesn't come to mind when I think "retro". But in the context of simply bringing back inactive characters or series he is handily the frontrunner in my opinion. That's coming from someone who was pretty damn critical of his chances up til now... the amount of love dealt toward Isaac and Golden Sun in Ultimate in contrast with most other series of that caliber has me believe he just barely missed the cut.

I dunno if NSO really means anything, but they made a pretty big deal out of the two GBA Golden Sun titles hitting the platform. It seems that Nintendo is aware of the series' cult popularity and legacy within fan circles, which is a nice bit of affirmation.

Speaking of inactive characters suddenly getting more stuff in Ultimate, I'm still always kinda surprised when I remember Starfy has like 6 Spirits in Ultimate: Starfy, Starly, Moe, Old Man Lobber, Mermaid, and Mattel. Obviously not as much as Isaac got (no music for instance, and obviously no Mii costume), but like 6 Spirits ain't half bad lmao

Also thought of it because of the NSO thing because suddenly dropping the first three games in the West for the first time is kinda nuts when they could've just been JP NSO exclusive lol

 

[Geno Boost]

do you think smash will ever achieve getting MMO games content?

 

[Kirbeh]

do you think smash will ever achieve getting MMO games content?

I could see them maybe pulling a couple things from FF14 if they expand beyond 7, but even then I don't think it'd be a priority.

Otherwise MMOs seem pretty unlikely tbh. Aside from FF14 and PSO there aren't any that I think would even be on the team's radar.

Looking to the west you've obviously got WoW and while they'd probably make the most sense I still feel like that's a huge reach.

It's certainly possible but MMOs sort of feel kinda far removed from the pool of games Smash would typically go for.

 

[Diddy Kong]

So, do you think we'll ever get a Retro character again?

Can only think of Takamaru, Mach Rider or Balloon Fighter. Sukapon maybe ? But they'd need significant support. I think the well is running dry a little.

From all these I think Takamaru is the most interesting one.

 

[fogbadge]

BTW Does Chibi-Robo count as retro?

don't say things like that

I keep saying it but everyone seems to forget how in the Ballot days Isaac was literally hanging with the likes of KRool and Banjo in polling.

I didn't

do you think smash will ever achieve getting MMO games content?

achieve? odd phrasing

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I keep saying it but everyone seems to forget how in the Ballot days Isaac was literally hanging with the likes of KRool and Banjo in polling. He's very popular..

There’s a lot of characters in general that were very popular, but fell off in speculation because they were confirmed as an Assist Trophy. Waluigi weirdly escaped this and got more popular due to his memetic “reveal”, but characters like Isaac, Krystal, Skull Kid and Ashley could spring back into the limelight once speculation startsup proper and characters are no longer restricted to their role in Ultimate. A character like Geno, in comparison, had a momentum to ride on since his support had its crashing-down-moment deep into DLC speculation. It’ll be interesting to see how Isaac, Skull Kid and Ashley’s support will fare after seven years of speculation shifts.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Typically "retro" label in the community refers to a throwback Nintendo character, like Ice Climbers or Pit.

Some people consider a retro character to be a character from that era...that never left that era. So really just ICs, G&W, ROB and Duck Hunt. Pit WAS retro at the time he joined Smash. But wouldn't be considered retro now because of Uprising.

Personally, I consider any character from that era to be retro.

 

[dezeray112]

So, do you think we'll ever get a Retro character again?

I really hope so.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Since Isaac's been coming up a little bit with the retro talk, I just wanted to quickly mention how suddenly Golden Sun's representation kinda shot up in Ultimate and makes me think he probably did pretty okay for himself on the Ballot potentially and he'll hopefully be playable next game.

In Brawl he had his Assist Trophy with one attack, Move. He had a trophy for himself, and there was one remix on Norfair. No stickers or anything, which is kind of hilarious in retrospect because a game like Magical Starsign got 3 trophies and like 5 Stickers, but it came out in 2006 while the last Golden Sun game was in 2002 and the next one wouldn't be until 2010, so it's understandable with Brawl smack dab in the middle of Golden Sun's hibernation pre-Dark Dawn.

In Smash 4, Isaac's Assist Trophy does not return, and his series has no regular trophies at all even in Smash 3DS (despite Eddy from Fluidity getting one when Fluidity is a 2010 WiiWare release, the same year Dark Dawn released), he just retains the Brawl remix on Norfair and adds Weyard (the overworld theme of Dark Dawn) to the music selection on Palutena's Temple.

In Ultimate, Isaac returns as an Assist Trophy along with using Move, but can also use Pound, Lift, and Teleport as additions to his kit. He received a Mii Costume, both of his music tracks returned, and Golden Sun has 8 Spirits: Isaac himself, his appearance in Dark Dawn as an upgrade, Garet, Mia, Felix, Matthew, Ivan, and Jenna.

I'm hoping this means he's at least on the radar for the team, since even though I haven't really played much of Golden Sun, I know he's pretty popular around here and somewhat generally (I mean he won the New Franchises section of Swamp's poll and was sixth overall when he hit 500 votes), and I have a friend who's crazy for Golden Sun and they've wanted Isaac since pre-Smash 4.

Am with you on this. I think Isaac would easily have made the roster if it wasn't for Everyone is Here and the fact the DLC characters where chosen like they where.

Golden Sun has a lot of extra attention given for a IP that doesn't have a playable character. Even the Isaac AT was given more love like you said.

Am still hopeful he's gonna make it next game. Golden Sun not having a remake kinda hurts maybe, but I think we might still see something in the future

 

[SPEN18]

There’s a lot of characters in general that were very popular, but fell off in speculation because they were confirmed as an Assist Trophy. Waluigi weirdly escaped this and got more popular due to his memetic “reveal”, but characters like Isaac, Krystal, Skull Kid and Ashley could spring back into the limelight once speculation startsup proper and characters are no longer restricted to their role in Ultimate. A character like Geno, in comparison, had a momentum to ride on since his support had its crashing-down-moment deep into DLC speculation. It’ll be interesting to see how Isaac, Skull Kid and Ashley’s support will fare after seven years of speculation shifts.

For sure Isaac benefited from circumstances in the Ballot era, with some of his competition hurt by NPC status (though you can say the same for someone like KRool). That includes Waluigi, by the way.
It's still important to his likelihood that he was one of the creams of the crop at a time that it, perhaps, mattered most in terms of being visible to Nintendo. And those results still show he is a very popular character, even if someone like Krystal or etc. could perform similarly on a current poll. Speaking of it, last we were updated he was doing very well for himself on our latest poll. We have other indicators of his popularity, too, including crucially the amount of GS content in Ult.
It's just disappointing to see detractors dismiss him as a nobody character with those kind of polling results, or dismiss GS itself as a nobody series while at the same time championing various represented series which have...even less lifetime sales than GS.

 

[Cyberfire]

To briefly touch on Pauline again, what are peoples' thoughts on the Minis?

I more commonly see people embrace the idea of making her focused on Odyssey by playing into the music performer angle, either that or making use of props from the original arcade game.

The Minis however, often seem to be more divisive, I guess?

I think they're a pretty important part of her history given that the Mario vs DK series is pretty much where she appeared exclusively up until Odyssey.

I don't think her entire moveset should be focused on them, but I've always envisioned a playable Pauline as a sort of cross between P4U Rise and MvC Tron Bonne. Obviously leaning more towards Rise, but I could see the Mini Marios being Pauline's equivalent to Servbots.

Never thought about the Mini's before, but they would be a great stage hazard and/or assist trophy!

 

[Louie G.]

There’s a lot of characters in general that were very popular, but fell off in speculation because they were confirmed as an Assist Trophy. Waluigi weirdly escaped this and got more popular due to his memetic “reveal”, but characters like Isaac, Krystal, Skull Kid and Ashley could spring back into the limelight once speculation startsup proper and characters are no longer restricted to their role in Ultimate. A character like Geno, in comparison, had a momentum to ride on since his support had its crashing-down-moment deep into DLC speculation. It’ll be interesting to see how Isaac, Skull Kid and Ashley’s support will fare after seven years of speculation shifts.

Out of these characters, I recall Isaac being second to only Waluigi in continued hope and support even through Ultimate's lifespan. There were people legitimately arguing they could flip the script and add Isaac as a DLC character later. It was a fringe group, but you never saw this kind of er... optimism from most of these other characters. Continuing to remain in the conversation for this long beyond those circumstances speaks to something.

As mentioned, he does seem to be doing well in the recent poll done by Swamp too. Even if that support fizzles out by the time the new game is announced, they would have had to act on this support at least a couple years ahead of time to decide who to add to the roster. Assuming that process is going on as we speak, I think Isaac has remained popular enough to justify it and the Ballot is likely still a frame of reference for Sakurai to gauge this despite its age. We haven't seen anything official / reliable enough to replace its data anyway, the assumption is likely if people wanted them before they still want them now.

Krystal's support had already fallen off significantly by Ultimate's release, and I'm not sure where Ashley is standing right now. Probably moderately well but I wouldn't quite consider her a community darling on that level. Skull Kid shares his space with the generalized support for more Zelda content, but if anything that feels like it's gotten louder than ever. So I'd wager his momentum has only improved, with the potential barrier just being more contemporary Zelda material instead.

 

[Laniv]

To briefly touch on Pauline again, what are peoples' thoughts on the Minis?

I more commonly see people embrace the idea of making her focused on Odyssey by playing into the music performer angle, either that or making use of props from the original arcade game.

The Minis however, often seem to be more divisive, I guess?

I think they're a pretty important part of her history given that the Mario vs DK series is pretty much where she appeared exclusively up until Odyssey.

I don't think her entire moveset should be focused on them, but I've always envisioned a playable Pauline as a sort of cross between P4U Rise and MvC Tron Bonne. Obviously leaning more towards Rise, but I could see the Mini Marios being Pauline's equivalent to Servbots.

Easy Bowser Jr.-esque Down special. Press the button to cycle through a selection of five mini toys (Mario, Luigi, Peach, DK, and Toad), and press it again to set them loose.

 

[Dukefire]

For the Wario series, Ashley is still the most popular from what I have seen and heard.

 

[Pupp135]

Do you think Zelda, Link and Ganondorf may get another change in appearance for the next Smash Bros?View attachment 393909

As Link is already based on BotW, I could see him getting a slight update to his design, so it would better reflect his appearance in TotK. For Zelda, I’m not confident that she’ll have her TotK appearance as Sakurai was not interested in using her BotW appearance in Ultimate. My guess is something that is a cross among ALttP, ALbW, and EoW, allowing her to represent the 2D LoZ games. Despite Ganondorf’s appearance in TotK, I think they’ll probably reuse his OoT or TP appearance, being consistent with Ultimate’s way of using each Triforce wielder to represent a different part of each series.

If these two return, I think Toon Link (WW) and Sheik (some combination of her scrapped TP look and the BotW/TotK Stealth Attire) will probably keep their Ultimate designs given that Toon Link‘s most notable game was WW, and Sheik probably would have returned to OoT design in Ultimate. I really don’t know which design Impa or Beast Ganon would have if they joined.

If I was in charge, I would probably choose the following:

Link: TotK
Zelda: TP
Ganondorf: OoT
Toon Link: WW
Sheik if she returns: OoT
Impa if she is added: SS
Beast Ganon if he is added: AlttP

 

[Shinuto]

As Link is already based on BotW, I could see him getting a slight update to his design, so it would better reflect his appearance in TotK. For Zelda, I’m not confident that she’ll have her TotK appearance as Sakurai was not interested in using her BotW appearance in Ultimate. My guess is something that is a cross among ALttP, ALbW, and EoW, allowing her to represent the 2D LoZ games. Despite Ganondorf’s appearance in TotK, I think they’ll probably reuse his OoT or TP appearance, being consistent with Ultimate’s way of using each Triforce wielder to represent a different part of each series.

If these two return, I think Toon Link (WW) and Sheik (some combination of her scrapped TP look and the BotW/TotK Stealth Attire) will probably keep their Ultimate designs given that Toon Link‘s most notable game was WW, and Sheik probably would have returned to OoT design in Ultimate. I really don’t know which design Impa or Beast Ganon would have if they joined.

If I was in charge, I would probably choose the following:

Link: TotK
Zelda: TP
Ganondorf: OoT
Toon Link: WW
Sheik if she returns: OoT
Impa if she is added: SS
Beast Ganon if he is added: AlttP

ugh Twilight Princess Zelda, that stoic nothing of a character?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Krystal's support had already fallen off significantly by Ultimate's release, and I'm not sure where Ashley is standing right now. Probably moderately well but I wouldn't quite consider her a community darling on that level.

They're both within the top ten. Saying they fell off is a bit inaccurate.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

They're both within the top ten. Saying they fell off is a bit inaccurate.

To be fair, Krystal did fall off a bit before Ultimate if I remember right because pre-Ultimate a lot of people were clamoring for Wolf to come back first, and then when Everyone is Here was announced she rose up a bit before getting AT'd pre-release. She's presumably climbed up since then since Ultimate came out nearly 6 years ago and DLC ended with Sora nearly three years ago, but if my memory serves (and granted it might not because I don't pay a lot of attention to Star Fox character threads), she did have a low period when Ultimate came out because of the Assist Trophy and never really had a big push for "flipping the script" so to speak and getting upgraded during the DLC cycle.

 

[Louie G.]

They're both within the top ten. Saying they fell off is a bit inaccurate.

That’s true, fair enough!

In Krystal’s case, I guess that support has just quieted down less so than fizzling out. Brawl was a definitive peak for her and the absence from her (currently dormant) series for the last few games has probably not installed much new faith. But it’s good to know her support still thrives within the community. I mean, I think she must have done decently well in the ballot to be reconsidered as an Assist Trophy.

It makes me wonder how massive the push would be if Krystal did return to Star Fox in the series’ indefinite future. I think she would shoot up to monumental levels of support.

 

[Laniv]

Speaking of Star Fox, some interesting thoughts from the series' character designer:

Takaya Imamura On Star Fox, F-Zero, And Working With Miyamoto

We sit down with Nintendo veteran Takaya Imamura, going over his new project, and what he expects from future F-Zero and Star Fox sequels.

www.thegamer.com

The relevant part is that Takaya Imamura, who designed the cast of Star Fox, believes that Miyamoto has "strong feelings" for the series, and believes that it will return someday.

The other game Imamura is referring to in the screencap is F-Zero

 

[NintenRob]

They're both within the top ten. Saying they fell off is a bit inaccurate.

I do think Krystal probably does benefit very heavily from how your poll is structured. Ask someone what Star Fox characters they'd like to see and Krystal will probably be the first they click on for many people.

But I reckon if you lose the franchise segmentation, introduce third parties or limit how many characters you can vote for. I reckon she'd drop off significantly.

Krystal is certainly liked, but I don't think she's super demanded anymore, support for extra Star Fox characters in general I think has dropped off.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Krystal is certainly liked, but I don't think she's super demanded anymore, support for extra Star Fox characters in general I think has dropped off.

I feel like it certainly doesn't help that outside of like Assault, Star Fox seems unwilling to move beyond redoing 64 (which in itself is basically a redo of the original on the SNES) over and over, meaning the series basically hasn't moved narratively since 1993 especially since Star Fox Zero basically did that again and we've been on an 8-year long hiatus ever since.

If they just keep redoing 64 over and over again with different bells and whistles, we really don't need anything else to cover the series generally. To be honest Smash could probably get away with just having Fox and Wolf and still feel pretty well covered for Star Fox, as much as I like Falco.

Basically this is me saying I'm tired of Star Fox constantly and repeatedly retreading one story. It feels like the Spider-Man/Batman origin story of video games, every redo just has to start from the same point and James McCloud might as well be Uncle Ben/Thomas Wayne lmao

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Star Fox has managed the interesting feat of repeating the thing (story) that fans want evolved and constantly experimenting with the element (gameplay) fans want without gimmicks.

 

[Gorgonzales]

Star Fox has managed the interesting feat of repeating the thing (story) that fans want evolved and constantly experimenting with the element (gameplay) fans want without gimmicks.

It feels like this series is now Nintendo's guinea pig for trying out quirky new hardware control schemes that nobody wants nor asked for.

 

[Louie G.]

I'm rooting for Star Fox, I don't really know what the right choice for the series is but I'm certain there's a way to make this work. I feel like Assault was conceptually a step in the right direction? Unfortunately with the current gap between the less than successful Star Fox Zero, I fear we're looking at yet another soft reboot... which may or may not be a good sign for Krystal. I suppose there's a chance she's kinda just plopped into the main crew for some gender diversity. Nintendo seems more concerned with that lately, which is nice.

I've stated this before but I think Star Fox's most promising future is in film. I believe if this modern effort for Nintendo to expand their brands into multimedia persists, Star Fox would be surprisingly high on that list. If not just because Miyamoto seems to be the most directly involved with these and well, we're already getting Mario and Zelda. Assuming these continue to be great successes I almost feel like that's next on the docket, they can probably serve to be more experimental and self-indulgent once they have a few smash hits under their belt already.

 

[Lionfranky]

I keep hearing Sakurai stopped recording his Youtube videos. But, I still see new videos nowaday. When will he stop uploading? Did he really get involved in next project?

 

[Guynamednelson]

I keep hearing Sakurai stopped recording his Youtube videos. But, I still see new videos nowaday. When will he stop uploading? Did he really get involved in next project?

He's done with the filming of his videos, not the post-production of them. That's handled by other people.

 

[Perkilator]

I keep hearing Sakurai stopped recording his Youtube videos. But, I still see new videos nowaday. When will he stop uploading? Did he really get involved in next project?

Usually those videos are recorded months in advance and then released after they’ve been edited.

 

[SPEN18]

Nah, Krystal has been popular for a long time. Was mega-popular and confirmed to have been considered in Brawl, and did well on the Ballot (evidenced both thru polls and likely also thru her new AT in Ult), even despite having to compete with all the attention filtered towards vets like Wolf on said Ballot. Though due to that AT and its early-on reveal we didn't really get to see the full force of her support in the Ult cycle.

I agree that the format of the current poll could help her, but there are also several others with high vote totals that I definitely feel got boosted that way as much or more. Thing is, based on how longstanding her Smash-specific support is and her performance on one-vote polls like the Ballot, I am inclined to think that Krystal does have a pretty strong base of people that would vote for her in a format with more limited votes per person.

Besides this, I think Krystal might be talked a little less right now because a lot of the discussion ends up boiling down to "if there's a new Star Fox with her in it then she's super likely, but otherwise she's probably not happening." Coupled with uncertainty surrounding Falco and Wolf. So maybe a few less directions to go with discussing her right now aside from discussing the future of Star Fox generally, which to be fair does still come up frequently enough.

 

[Opossum]

Krystal feels a lot like Takamaru in the sense that they DO historically have demonstrable popularity within the fandom. It's just that they got disconfirmed right at the start of Smash Ultimate's speculation cycle, so discussion around them fizzled out for that game.

 

[RileyXY1]

Krystal feels a lot like Takamaru in the sense that they DO historically have demonstrable popularity within the fandom. It's just that they got disconfirmed right at the start of Smash Ultimate's speculation cycle, so discussion around them fizzled out for that game.

And now with debate over whether Star Fox will even have multiple reps at all, with quite a few people thinking that the series will be knocked down to having just Fox represent it, I don't know if the series will have any newcomers.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

If we were adding a Star Fox character, one option to consider would be Krystal being added as a shakeup option. Depending on how similar she ends up being to Fox, she could be added in place of Falco and/or Wolf.

I'm not sure how likely that is, as it relies on both Krystal being a clone and them deciding to add her instead of heckin' Falco, but I don't think it's completely out of the realm of possibility.

 

[superprincess]

All these characters we're talking about right now (Krystal, Isaac, Takamaru, Ayumi) are absolute nobodies outside of Smash speculation.

And that's what I kinda love about it, it sheds light on series and characters I'd never look at otherwise.

 

[DarthEnderX]

ugh Twilight Princess Zelda, that stoic nothing of a character?

I mean, if we're choosing based on most personality, Tetra Zelda wins. No contest.

Star Fox has managed the interesting feat of repeating the thing (story) that fans want evolved and constantly experimenting with the element (gameplay) fans want without gimmicks.

They need to remake StarFox 2's story, with StarFox 64's gameplay.

 

[SPEN18]

If we were adding a Star Fox character, one option to consider would be Krystal being added as a shakeup option. Depending on how similar she ends up being to Fox, she could be added in place of Falco and/or Wolf.

If Krystal could've been a clone, she would've been in Brawl over Wolf. Plus part of the point of Krystal is that she offers a kit that no one else in the series can provide.

 

[Diddy Kong]

If we were adding a Star Fox character, one option to consider would be Krystal being added as a shakeup option. Depending on how similar she ends up being to Fox, she could be added in place of Falco and/or Wolf.

I'm not sure how likely that is, as it relies on both Krystal being a clone and them deciding to add her instead of heckin' Falco, but I don't think it's completely out of the realm of possibility.

Seeing how both Falco and Wolf are sort of clonish (best type of clones however) and have seniority in both Smash and Star Fox, and the fact that if ONE Star Fox game is getting a remake it's 100% Star Fox 64 where Falco and Wolf appear in and Krystal does not, this is not a possibility.

She will only enter if Star Fox somehow becomes major again. And she will need to appear in a new game.

Speaking of Star Fox I'd actually degrade Falco back to Melee clone status and sort of fuse the Down B options of Fox and Falco while giving Falco the Melee Shine again. This way he was more popular anyway and it saves time on development.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Krystal's moveset ending up being based on Fox's abilities in that Zelda-like spin-off set in a dinosaur world developed by Rare 25 years ago for the GameCube and never rereleased would be pretty wild if you think about it.
On the other hand, those abilities have always screamed "Smash moveset!" to me. And maybe we'd also get some more David Wise music which is always nice.

But yeah I don't think that Krystal is likely at all, at least as of now.

 

[fogbadge]

I do think Krystal probably does benefit very heavily from how your poll is structured. Ask someone what Star Fox characters they'd like to see and Krystal will probably be the first they click on for many people.

But I reckon if you lose the franchise segmentation, introduce third parties or limit how many characters you can vote for. I reckon she'd drop off significantly.

Krystal is certainly liked, but I don't think she's super demanded anymore, support for extra Star Fox characters in general I think has dropped off.

well that's the problem with smash speculation. we keep asking asking who everyone wants the most not just who people want. that's why I like the way swamp did the poll none of that pick only one nonsense

All these characters we're talking about right now (Krystal, Isaac, Takamaru, Ayumi) are absolute nobodies outside of Smash speculation.

maybe to you but not to the people who've played their games and love them

 

[Will]

All these characters we're talking about right now (Krystal, Isaac, Takamaru, Ayumi) are absolute nobodies outside of Smash speculation.

Hasn’t stopped anyone before.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

I wouldn't say that Isaac and Krystal are nobodies. Golden Sun and especially Starfox are popular series with multiple iterations and a few multimillion sellers on their belt.
Ayumi and Takamaru on the other hand, yeah you don't get much more hardcore Nintendo than those two.