Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Shinuto]

I mean, if we're choosing based on most personality, Tetra Zelda wins. No contest.

They need to remake StarFox 2's story, with StarFox 64's gameplay.

No that's phantom hourglass Zelda, theoment tetra became Zelda she lost all her personality

 

[Perkilator]

Quoting from another thread:

Another thing that gets me: why should Waluigi just remain as "the mascot of Assist Trophies" when there are people who genuinely want to see him playable, including myself? That just seems like a disrespectful label people slap onto him for the sake of maintaining the status quo. I don't care if that's Waluigi's joke in Smash as is; eventually, the joke of being an Assist Trophy just gets old after multiple games.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

For some reason that gives me the idea of Waluigi being changed from Assist Trophy to Boss, and the entire next Smash game having a meta narrative based around non-playable characters getting revenge for not being selected for Smash.

Get ready for a surprisingly tough boss encounter with Dr Wright.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Speaking of Star Fox I'd actually degrade Falco back to Melee clone status and sort of fuse the Down B options of Fox and Falco while giving Falco the Melee Shine again. This way he was more popular anyway and it saves time on development.

I personally disagree to an extent. I don't really want to see him become more like Fox, but I also don't play either character very often on account of the skill floor being too high, so I suppose I don't have that big a horse in the race. It's more of a principal thing to me. That and I like the reflector kick. It's cool, and I'd much rather see it just being made into an actually good move.

I do think it's pretty funny that literally every fan game does this though. lol

 

[Deleted member]

Quoting from another thread:

While i agree that him not begin playable for the shake of him begin the face of assist trophies is dumb, saying that puting a label on a fictional character is disrespectful is a bit over the top.

 

[osby]

For some reason that gives me the idea of Waluigi being changed from Assist Trophy to Boss, and the entire next Smash game having a meta narrative based around non-playable characters getting revenge for not being selected for Smash.

Get ready for a surprisingly tough boss encounter with Dr Wright.

I'm down for this idea as long as it comes with a boss rush against all non-playable 1500+ spirits in Ultimate.

 

[Ivander]

I mean, if we're choosing based on most personality, Tetra Zelda wins. No contest.

Nah, I like Tetra, but the Zelda that wins best personality 100% belongs to Spirit Tracks Zelda. Easily, easily the best Zelda out of all pre-BotW Zeldas and even then, she gives BotW Zelda big competition.

 

[Dukefire]

Character discussions can be a mixed bag, but we all know who has the last say for everything.

While a character as a fighter can be played and feel from their home series, it also have to follow Sakurai's main concept of Smash Bros being friendly to all ages. Simplicity of Kirbyism.

Source is PushDustin on Twitter ("X")

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Character discussions can be a mixed bag, but we all know who has the last say for everything.

While a character as a fighter can be played and feel from their home series, it also have to follow Sakurai's main concept of Smash Bros being friendly to all ages. Simplicity of Kirbyism.

I mean...yeah? I don't think this is saying anything anyone doesn't already know. There's also so many ways to experiment with Super Smash Bros.'s gameplay that doesn't violate this philosophy that I wouldn't say that it keeps anyone out. Really, it's just a design constraint, of which the concept as a whole is an industry standard practice because it helps you get to where you want to be with your game.

 

[Louie G.]

Speaking of Sakurai, I want to address something I've been thinking about - which is that for three games in a row now, he has considered adding a new team-up character that has fallen through the cracks in some way or another. This is a surprisingly consistent thing.

In Brawl, this was Diddy & Dixie. In Smash 4, this was presumably the Chorus Kids. In Ultimate, this was Rex & Pyra before simplifying the idea down to just Aegis. This makes me wonder - is this something that he feels especially compelled to accomplish again someday? Ice Climbers was such a long time ago, so perhaps with technical restrictions eventually lifted he is eager to re-explore the concept in a new way. At the very least, it seems like he doesn't believe Ice Climbers need to be the only exploration of the mechanic.

I love the Icies, but I do believe we could use a fresh new perspective on the duo moveset style and it seems like Sakurai may feel the same, taking this pattern into account. We kind of touched on this the other day when discussing Splatoon idols, but do you think we've ever see another character like this again? Do you think the kinks may be worked out next time, with stronger technical capabilities and the time in-between to think it over?

 

[ninjahmos]

This might be unlikely, but you know who I think would make an interesting duo character for Smash? Mono & Six (Little Nightmares)

 

[Dukefire]

This might be unlikely, but you know who I think would make an interesting duo for Smash? Mono & Six (Little Nightmares)

I haven't played Little Nightmares, so I don't have a general idea how it could work. I have seen gameplay of it. Based on little knowledge, I can say Shadow powers are the main concept of their attacks.

 

[Sucumbio]

Speaking of Sakurai, I want to address something I've been thinking about - which is that for three games in a row now, he has considered adding a new team-up character that has fallen through the cracks in some way or another. This is a surprisingly consistent thing.

In Brawl, this was Diddy & Dixie. In Smash 4, this was presumably the Chorus Kids. In Ultimate, this was Rex & Pyra before simplifying the idea down to just Aegis. This makes me wonder - is this something that he feels especially compelled to accomplish again someday? Ice Climbers was such a long time ago, so perhaps with technical restrictions eventually lifted he is eager to re-explore the concept in a new way. At the very least, it seems like he doesn't believe Ice Climbers need to be the only exploration of the mechanic.

I love the Icies, but I do believe we could use a fresh new perspective on the duo moveset style and it seems like Sakurai may feel the same, taking this pattern into account. We kind of touched on this the other day when discussing Splatoon idols, but do you think we've ever see another character like this again? Do you think the kinks may be worked out next time, with stronger technical capabilities and the time in-between to work out the kinks?

He does seem to enjoy it as a mechanic since we have in addition to those Zelda/Sheik and Samus/ZSS (I miss the 3 suit pieces they were funny projectiles and added depth) so it's likely he'll continue exploring this concept, and since Aegis worked he'll no doubt try and fine tune the concept. I don't think he'll revisit franken-fighters to the same degree as previously because it's costly to keep trying and ending up splitting them up anyway, but there's plenty of other pairs that could work both canonically and as fighters.

There's also degrees of pairing with something passive like I used to imagine Otacon with a cypher floating around that he controlled with a pad lol but then there's strict change up which can involve Aegis levels of synchronicity or in between like with Tag fighters where not every pair can combo necessarily etc...

I would like Black Knight to work this way actually with Zelgius as the standard form and Black Knight the transformation...

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

For some reason that gives me the idea of Waluigi being changed from Assist Trophy to Boss, and the entire next Smash game having a meta narrative based around non-playable characters getting revenge for not being selected for Smash.

Get ready for a surprisingly tough boss encounter with Dr Wright.

Devil would be one hell of a boss fight

 

[Louie G.]

He does seem to enjoy it as a mechanic since we have in addition to those Zelda/Sheik and Samus/ZSS (I miss the 3 suit pieces they were funny projectiles and added depth) so it's likely he'll continue exploring this concept, and since Aegis worked he'll no doubt try and fine tune the concept. I don't think he'll revisit franken-fighters to the same degree as previously because it's costly to keep trying and ending up splitting them up anyway, but there's plenty of other pairs that could work both canonically and as fighters.

Personally I think we may be done with our Pythra or Pokemon Trainer type stance characters, at least for now, because I'm not sure what else can be done to refine or expand on that mechanic (and we just got a new one with Ultimate DLC). Aegis feels like the exeuction of this idea that always should have been. I was thinking more in the vein of Ice Climbers, having two characters on stage at once, and what can be done with that.

I like your Otacon idea, but that does feel more akin to something like Rosalina. My mindset is at the kind of character where you'd have two of them at a time, but perhaps one takes the lead and the other offers support and you can switch between who's in front and who's lending assist (I suspect the Kongs or Rex/Pyra would have been like this). Or perhaps just some mechanic that streamlines control over both parties, since one of the difficulties of Ice Climbers is that Nana sometimes has a mind of her own (Chorus Kids would have probably designated this more). Something that further hones in on this sort of mechanic, because surely after nearly 25 years there's some way it can be improved or deviated on? I'm no game dev mind you but I've seen the likes of NASB toy with similar ideas and if they can do it I'm certain Sakurai can refine it on like 10x budget.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Speaking of Sakurai, I want to address something I've been thinking about - which is that for three games in a row now, he has considered adding a new team-up character that has fallen through the cracks in some way or another. This is a surprisingly consistent thing.

In Brawl, this was Diddy & Dixie. In Smash 4, this was presumably the Chorus Kids. In Ultimate, this was Rex & Pyra before simplifying the idea down to just Aegis. This makes me wonder - is this something that he feels especially compelled to accomplish again someday? Ice Climbers was such a long time ago, so perhaps with technical restrictions eventually lifted he is eager to re-explore the concept in a new way. At the very least, it seems like he doesn't believe Ice Climbers need to be the only exploration of the mechanic.

I love the Icies, but I do believe we could use a fresh new perspective on the duo moveset style and it seems like Sakurai may feel the same, taking this pattern into account. We kind of touched on this the other day when discussing Splatoon idols, but do you think we've ever see another character like this again? Do you think the kinks may be worked out next time, with stronger technical capabilities and the time in-between to think it over?

It'll depend on what characters make the greenlight, and whether or not they can figure out how to allow players to control them properly. Though if we're limiting them to just Ice Climbers style, I think they will be pretty few and far between (I don't think even the Chorus Kids were going to act the same way).

 

[Louie G.]

Though if we're limiting them to just Ice Climbers style, I think they will be pretty few and far between (I don't think even the Chorus Kids were going to act the same way).

I don’t either, but I’m acknowledging that they probably had to overcome the same design hurdle of being a team based character with multiple heads on stage at once. I think the relative simplicity of the Chorus Kids and the more straightforward 1-2-3 nature of their attacks would have made them operate more as a single unit than a duo that can divide and conquer, but that’s still pretty much a new play on the idea.

I generally believe the idea of a duo that can “desync”, and separate to a degree like the Ice Climbers can is covered by them. I especially don’t think they’d find this idea very appealing if 8-player Smash continues to be a factor. A new spin on the idea likely distances itself from the puppet-y element and hones in more on creative new ways to implement the teamwork.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Nah, I like Tetra, but the Zelda that wins best personality 100% belongs to Spirit Tracks Zelda. Easily, easily the best Zelda out of all pre-BotW Zeldas and even then, she gives BotW Zelda big competition.

Echoes of Wisdom Zelda is most likely gonna be the most popular Zelda ever though lol.

But I really liked her role in TOTK. Tetra was real cool too tho. Gotta give it up to Sheik too.

Weirdly enough, TP Zelda is always amongst the most popular but she literally doesn't do all too much. I didn't find her to be too involved in the story. But it's been a while of course.

 

[Gorgonzales]

I'm no game dev mind you but I've seen the likes of NASB toy with similar ideas and if they can do it I'm certain Sakurai can refine it on like 10x budget.

Was gonna say, NABS2's Angry Beavers is such a cool duo character design. There's definitely room to toy with the idea more, and I'd imagine the closest thing to them we could get are a Kong duo.

One cool multi-fighter idea I've had would be Blinky from Pac-Man, who can summon the other three ghosts to trail behind him like Olimar's Pikmin (as in they're intangible while following Blinky but tangible when used for certain moves) and you can swap between the ghost you control with shield B or something.

They could have a special move that sends the next Ghost in line to chase the opponent with their Pac-Man behavior (Blinky goes straight for the opponent, Pinky screenwraps and tries to flank the opponent from the other side, Inky tries to intercept the opponent, and Clyde does whatever he feels like). Another special move could have them form a line and dash in a direction, creating a long snaking hitbox wall (that can still be attacked if you want to get rid of some ghosts).

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Weirdly enough, TP Zelda is always amongst the most popular but she literally doesn't do all too much. I didn't find her to be too involved in the story. But it's been a while of course.

She's popular because she fights and she's ****ing gorgeous.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I don’t either, but I’m acknowledging that they probably had to overcome the same design hurdle of being a team based character with multiple heads on stage at once. I think the relative simplicity of the Chorus Kids and the more straightforward 1-2-3 nature of their attacks would have made them operate more as a single unit than a duo that can divide and conquer, but that’s still pretty much a new play on the idea.

I generally believe the idea of a duo that can “desync”, and separate to a degree like the Ice Climbers can is covered by them. I especially don’t think they’d find this idea very appealing if 8-player Smash continues to be a factor. A new spin on the idea likely distances itself from the puppet-y element and hones in more on creative new ways to implement the teamwork.

Ah, so stuff like Tom & Jerry being a resource character ala Laitchi or Ramlethal or something of the sort?

 

[ninjahmos]

OK, so I just a had a thought…

Assuming Ganondorf gets a full-on overhaul in the form of TOTK for the next game, do you think they would still use one of his older designs (OOT or TP) as one of his alts?

 

[Potted Plant]

OK, so I just a had a thought…

Assuming Ganondorf gets a full-on overhaul in the form of TOTK for the next game, do you think they would still use one of his older designs (OOT or TP) as one of his alts?

I could see OoT being an alt costume.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Speaking of Sakurai, I want to address something I've been thinking about - which is that for three games in a row now, he has considered adding a new team-up character that has fallen through the cracks in some way or another. This is a surprisingly consistent thing.

In Brawl, this was Diddy & Dixie. In Smash 4, this was presumably the Chorus Kids. In Ultimate, this was Rex & Pyra before simplifying the idea down to just Aegis. This makes me wonder - is this something that he feels especially compelled to accomplish again someday? Ice Climbers was such a long time ago, so perhaps with technical restrictions eventually lifted he is eager to re-explore the concept in a new way. At the very least, it seems like he doesn't believe Ice Climbers need to be the only exploration of the mechanic.

I love the Icies, but I do believe we could use a fresh new perspective on the duo moveset style and it seems like Sakurai may feel the same, taking this pattern into account. We kind of touched on this the other day when discussing Splatoon idols, but do you think we've ever see another character like this again? Do you think the kinks may be worked out next time, with stronger technical capabilities and the time in-between to think it over?

I mean I'm obviously hoping Chorus Kids come back or some kind of Rhythm Heaven character since it would help me cope with the Rhythm Heaven-related endless abyss of time that lies before me. That or I'm hoping Noah and Mio are both playable this way.

Aside from that though, it definitely does seem like something he considers on a regular basis so I feel like eventually the team will be able to crack the code and make something like this work.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Was gonna say, NABS2's Angry Beavers is such a cool duo character design. There's definitely room to toy with the idea more, and I'd imagine the closest thing to them we could get are a Kong duo.

View attachment 393939

One cool multi-fighter idea I've had would be Blinky from Pac-Man, who can summon the other three ghosts to trail behind him like Olimar's Pikmin (as in they're intangible while following Blinky but tangible when used for certain moves) and you can swap between the ghost you control with shield B or something.

They could have a special move that sends the next Ghost in line to chase the opponent with their Pac-Man behavior (Blinky goes straight for the opponent, Pinky screenwraps and tries to flank the opponent from the other side, Inky tries to intercept the opponent, and Clyde does whatever he feels like). Another special move could have them form a line and dash in a direction, creating a long snaking hitbox wall (that can still be attacked if you want to get rid of some ghosts).

Before we got and his Koopaling alts I was thinking about having the Koopalings be playable via Larry being the one you actually play as while 3 other Koopalings trail behind him in a Clown Car performing his special moves, Down-B letting you switch between Lemmy/Wendy/Iggy and Ludwig/Roy/Morton.

So it's essentially a hybrid between a transforming fighter and a duo fighter.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

While it would be closer to a Rosalina/Luma combination than a team combo, I always thought one of the later Castlevania protagonists with various familiars would make for an interesting mechanic. Alucard arguably has enough iconic abilities to not rely on the idea but ones from other games that leaned more into the concept could make for a deep utilization in Smash.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Nah, I like Tetra, but the Zelda that wins best personality 100% belongs to Spirit Tracks Zelda. Easily, easily the best Zelda out of all pre-BotW Zeldas and even then, she gives BotW Zelda big competition.

I mean, she's also the only Zelda who accompanies you directly for the entire game.

I'm not saying those two things are correlated but...

Actually, yes I am, it makes sense that the Zelda with the best personality would be the one with the most screentime.

 

[Ivander]

Weirdly enough, TP Zelda is always amongst the most popular but she literally doesn't do all too much. I didn't find her to be too involved in the story. But it's been a while of course.

Part of me thinks that might be a Smash Bros. thing where she's somewhat more involved in Subspace(especially if you save her from Petey).

She's popular because she fights and she's ****ing gorgeous.

looks at TP the only time she fights is when she's shooting Light arrows on horseback behind Link, with the other time she fights is when she's possessed by Ganondorf
Look, there's nothing wrong with liking her, but unless you count Smash Bros Brawl's Subspace, she hardly does more than Wind Waker Zelda.

 

[Louie G.]

Ah, so stuff like Tom & Jerry being a resource character ala Laitchi or Ramlethal or something of the sort?

Maybe... I was thinking more like how Donkey Kong Country's tag in / tag out operates, letting one take the lead and the other fall back. With an added element of player assist, perhaps they still chime in for certain moves like Ice Climbers, perhaps they literally provide backup via Marvel vs Capcom styled assist. This feels like the most practical way to evolve what Smash already does with Ice Climbers into something a bit more streamlined.

The team as a resource element feels more akin to how someone like Rosalina already operates, or hell even Ice Climbers themselves. Maybe Gorgonzales' Blinky concept is kind of in tune with that, though. The other ghosts could operate a bit like Ram's swords lol.

One cool multi-fighter idea I've had would be Blinky from Pac-Man, who can summon the other three ghosts to trail behind him like Olimar's Pikmin (as in they're intangible while following Blinky but tangible when used for certain moves) and you can swap between the ghost you control with shield B or something.

Speaking of which, this is such a fun idea lol. Definitely has my support, seems like a fun way to implement such an abstractly capable character. Other attacks probably use the ghost team as a hitbox extension, maybe they circle around Blinky for a nair or stretch all the way out for a FSmash to kind of incentivize you to keep them around best you can. But I love the idea of essentially commanding them out to wreak havoc around the stage.

And yeah, I'm in love with the way they implemented Angry Beavers in NSMB2 and that has kind of singlehandedly inspired me to consider this further for next Smash. I just feel like Smash's take on it would favor having the support character onstage at all times instead of teleporting in.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

As far as dark horse Zelda inclusions I'd go with the Hyrule Warriors variation given her solid abilities there and her overall look is a good amalgamation of her past designs, but it's all a matter of taste.

 

[Perkilator]

Ever since the Angry Beavers were revealed for NASB 2, I always thought the way they switch between each other would work well for Noah & Mio.

 

[Ivander]

I mean, she's also the only Zelda who accompanies you directly for the entire game.

I'm not saying those two things are correlated but...

Actually, yes I am, it makes sense that the Zelda with the best personality would be the one with the most screentime.

It's not even the fact that she's with you the whole adventure. At first, she tries to hold herself proper, but the moment she gets into the moment or doesn't watch herself, she becomes much more boisterous, tomboy-ish, or whatnot. Like it's not just how she has alot of character development going from somebody who feels they are unable to do anything at all to someone who becomes confidence and ready to do what needs to be done, but just her non-Princess moments are hilarious, between her moment of sheer panic near the beginning of the game, her having moments of "wild yelling" whenever leaving on the train, she'll snap at you if you get into her way when you make her a path to go on and when one of the other villains, Byrne, is betrayed by Cole and knocked out and brought back to your train and the main characters are discussing about him, Zelda mentions on how she wants to have some words with Byrne and starts shadow boxing with punching combos, implying she's ready to rip him a new one if he tries something.

Like sure, the fact she's with you the entire game is a big factor, but Spirit Tracks Zelda is just easily one of the best Zeldas, between being alot more involved than previous Zeldas, having great character development, having personality outside of her development and just having alot of funny moments that had me laughing so hard.

 

[SPEN18]

Echoes of Wisdom Zelda

I mean Echoes of Wisdom Zelda is more or less just chibified ALttP/ALbW Zelda. I feel like this type of design (i.e. the ALttP one and its derivatives) is more or less the standard evergreen Zelda and I think they'll likely keep Zelda close to her Ult design next game, esp. with Echoes Zelda again basically being a chibified version of that and with Wild-era Zelda being much too different from the other Zeldas to take on the moveset.

 

[DarthEnderX]

No that's phantom hourglass Zelda, theoment tetra became Zelda she lost all her personality

Nah, I like Tetra, but the Zelda that wins best personality 100% belongs to Spirit Tracks Zelda.

They're all the same Zelda!

 

[Ivander]

They're all the same Zelda!

No, Spirit Tracks Zelda is a different Zelda from Tetra. In fact, Spirit Tracks Zelda is explicitly stated to be Tetra's granddaughter/great-grand daughter.

 

[DarthEnderX]

In fact, Spirit Tracks Zelda is explicitly stated to be Tetra's granddaughter/great-grand daughter.

Fair enough.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

They're all the same Zelda!

Not Spirit Tracks. This one is different and while I could try and make a super analysis to explain why, I don't need to.

Just look at what Niko looks like in Spirit Tracks.

There's definitely a decades-long timeskip.

 

[Idon]

looks at TP the only time she fights is when she's shooting Light arrows on horseback behind Link, with the other time she fights is when she's possessed by Ganondorf

To be fair, that was enough justification for Palutena.

 

[Ivander]

To be fair, that was enough justification for Palutena.

Besides the power of flight for Pit, Palutena was responsible for your spells/powers in Kid Icarus Uprising and she uses them as part of her Specials as well as her Final Smash, so she was doing some fighting before getting possessed by the Chaos Kin.

 

[Noipoi]

No, Spirit Tracks Zelda is a different Zelda from Tetra. In fact, Spirit Tracks Zelda is explicitly stated to be Tetra's granddaughter/great-grand daughter.

I too hope my great grandchild looks completely identical to me, going so far as to dress exactly the same.