Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Hypercat-Z]

nah animal crossing will take a while, they'll be moving onto spaltoon 4 first

Or a brand new IP that uses the specifics of the "Switch 2".

 

[Gengar84]

Trivia: In Japan it's called Super Smash Bros. Special.
It was renamed Super Smash Bros. Ultimate for the western market because the word "Special" doesn't sound badass as it used to be.
And anyway, Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3 was all but the last Mortal Kombat.

Yeah, good point. I wasn’t trying to suggest that the “Ultimate” title meant that it had to be the last entry, just that I don’t rule it out as a possibility. The fact that it’s called “Special” in Japan is reassuring though. More than the title, I think the general theme of Ultimate is going to be hard to follow up with a traditional sequel but it’s been done before with games like Mortal Kombat so time will tell. I still think we’ll likely see a sequel of some kind, just curious which direction they’ll go.

 

[fogbadge]

Or a brand new IP that uses the specifics of the "Switch 2".

is the animal crossing/splatoon team usually in charge of them?

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Sakurai designs every Smash game like it's the last, Ultimate included. But that doesn't mean any will truly be the last. It just means Sakurai will go all-out each time.

 

[Guynamednelson]

And anyway, Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3 was all but the last Mortal Kombat.

And it wasn't even the last version of MK3, Mortal Kombat Trilogy is more like a version of UMK3 with Raiden/Johnny Cage/Baraka added than a compilation of the first three games.

 

[Hypercat-Z]

Ultimate does have the feeling of a big blowout series finale that celebrates the history of the series. That said, we still kept getting Mortal Kombat games after MK Trilogy so it definitely doesn’t mean we can’t get a sequel either. Just an observation.

In all honesty Ultimate feels like Super Smash Bros. 4 DX with extra steps, in the good and the bad way.
It was clearly rushed AF (Sakurai got even ill in the process) because the lifespan of the Wii was shoryer than planned. So, while they had planned a huge roster, they had to fill the slots ASAP, and that required some tricks: Zelda and Samus were left sperated from Sheik and Zero Suit Samus, the Mii fighters were spread on three different slots, all the cut characters returned, a lot of new characters were created using prexisting characters and labeled as "echo characters", trophies were skipped at all and substituted by "spirits", which are basically the Stickers of Brawl but less refined. The story mode was built on battles, with no cutscenes at all.
Conclusion: With more time and less rush to develope Super Smash Bros. Ultimate could have been even more outstanding than it actually is. Which also means the next Smash Bros. might have all the gimmicks and features that were skipped on the current one, and I don't see any time constriction on its developement.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

And what exactly is the context of this quote?

Sunburned Albino in response to Oogie Manor.

 

[Hypercat-Z]

Sakurai designs every Smash game like it's the last, Ultimate included. But that doesn't mean any will truly be the last. It just means Sakurai will go all-out each time.

But this time it might be HIS last Smash Bros.
The man is exhausted and deserves some good rest.
Rumors said it will be still behind the series, but as producers rather than as director. Let's hope he will pass the torch to someone very competent!

 

[Noipoi]

I think next time around Sakurai will still be director, but he’ll have another guy around as a “junior director” of sorts. He’ll train him in the ways of Smash Brothers before properly passing the torch once it’s time for Smash 7 in 2038.

Only then can he finally rest.

 

[Gengar84]

Yeah, I could see Sakurai staying on as an advisory role but leaving the bulk of the actual development to someone new. In the end, it’s his decision and if he feels burnt out and exhausted, he’s more than earned the time off with how hard he’s worked himself. Let’s just hope whoever picks up his role will be great too.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Do I want Sakurai to take a break and do more things in the backseat so he can rest? Yes.

But we've seen enough of the guy's work ethic to know the only way he wouldn't go all out as a director is if he's physically incapable of doing so.

 

[Guynamednelson]

It was clearly rushed AF

3 years is not rushed AF, that's the opposite.

Zelda and Samus were left sperated from Sheik and Zero Suit Samus

Because most people only stick to one form and Zelda/Sheik both have full solo movesets rather than just Charizard.

all the cut characters returned,

Yeah, that's literally the point of the game.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

stuff

Alright, let's clear things out...

In all honesty Ultimate feels like Super Smash Bros. 4 DX with extra steps, in the good and the bad way.

Well yeah, Sakurai explicitly stated reusing stuff from Smash 4 is what made Ultimate possible.

But that also means it took less steps to fully realize this game than an entirely new one with an entirely new engine which is the usual M.O. of not just Smash but most of Nintendo's IPs.

It was clearly rushed AF (Sakurai got even ill in the process) because the lifespan of the Wii was shoryer than planned.

3 years is not rushed. A lot of game developers these days would kill to have that much time on a game.

Also, source on the Wii U's lifespan being a reason for Ultimate being "rushed"?

So, while they had planned a huge roster, they had to fill the slots ASAP, and that required some tricks: Zelda and Samus were left sperated from Sheik and Zero Suit Samus,

This was a Smash 4 thing, not an Ultimate thing. And based on what we know, most notably why the Ice Climbers were cut in that game, you could more likely chalk that up to the 3DS's limitations.

the Mii fighters were spread on three different slots,

Which I would argue is more convenient.

all the cut characters returned,

Literally the entire reason Ultimate was even made. Sakurai wanted a massive game to honor Iwata.

a lot of new characters were created using prexisting characters and labeled as "echo characters",

Clones are nothing new to the fighting game genre. Ultimate is merely the first time they were an actual part of the marketing which actually made them feel more accepted and part of the roster.

Now if only some of them had more distinctions... but that's another kind of debate.

trophies were skipped at all and substituted by "spirits", which are basically the Stickers of Brawl but less refined.

You try to make hundreds if not thousands of models for something only a fraction of the people will actually look at and see if that's fun. Not to mention they would take a lot of memory space...

With that said, I'd have had no issues with Spirits replacing trophies if the descriptions stayed...

The story mode was built on battles, with no cutscenes at all.

Because Sakurai is still upset about Brawl's cutscenes being leaked to this day. We've learned that in one of his videos.

This has nothing to do with dev time. The lack of cutscenes is literally Sakurai's vision.

Conclusion: With more time and less rush to develope Super Smash Bros. Ultimate could have been even more outstanding than it actually is. Which also means the next Smash Bros. might have all the gimmicks and features that were skipped on the current one, and I don't see any time constriction on its developement.

I don't agree on there being not enough time to make Ultimate.

The real issue is that the gigantic roster took so much priority that everything else was hurt. All-Star is not sustainable with an 80+ roster that keeps growing, for example.

As for other "gimmicks"; Break the Targets has had issues since Brawl with only half of Ultimate's roster, Subspace was peak but the reason we're not getting anything like it isn't timing constraints but rather personal grudges... I could go on.

Point is time had nothing to do with how Ultimate came to be. If anything, they had more time than ever due to being able to recycle from Smash 4. A fully new game with the same dev time would have far less content because they'd lack the headstart.

 

[Guynamednelson]

we're not getting anything like it isn't timing constraints but rather personal grudges... I could go on.

With how Sakurai didn't stop making Smash despite all its leaks, I feel like he just used the cutscene leaks as an excuse to never have to deal with Subspace's development ever again.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

With how Sakurai didn't stop making Smash despite all its leaks, I feel like he just used the cutscene leaks as an excuse to never have to deal with Subspace's development ever again.

That's because he has beef against cutscenes, not video games as a whole.

 

[Hypercat-Z]

3 years is not rushed AF, that's the opposite.

I disagree and this is my argument:

See? Ultimate is the second fastest developed Smash Bros. after Melee, and only because Melee was constructed on a solid prexisting base.Clearly, at some point they had toaccelerate the process becausethe Switched needed a new Smash Bros.
On the other side, it has been six years since the Ultimate's release and there is no sight of a new Smash Bros. at the horizon, making this the longest interval in the series. Which in a schrodinger way is both good news and bad news, since they are either taking their time to project the new Smash Bros. or not making a new Smash Bros. at all.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I disagree and this is my argument:
View attachment 393957
See? Ultimate is the second fastest developed Smash Bros. after Melee, and only because Melee was constructed on a solid prexisting base.Clearly, at some point they had toaccelerate the process becausethe Switched needed a new Smash Bros.
On the other side, it has been six years since the Ultimate's release and there is no sight of a new Smash Bros. at the horizon, making this the longest interval in the series. Which in a schrodinger way is both good news and bad news, since they are either taking their time to project the new Smash Bros. or not making a new Smash Bros. at all.

Those gaps between Melee/Brawl and Brawl/4 were not spent solely on developing the new Smash. Ever heard of a game called Kid Icarus Uprising?

 

[Hypercat-Z]

Yeah, that's literally the point of the game.

The point as the plan or as the conseguence? My guess is for the second one.

 

[Guynamednelson]

The point as the plan or as the conseguence? My guess is for the second one.

It's what Sakurai planned in the beginning, he confirmed it.

 

[Hypercat-Z]

Those gaps between Melee/Brawl and Brawl/4 were not spent solely on developing the new Smash. Ever heard of a game called Kid Icarus Uprising?

Uhmmm... Good point! Which also makes the current gap even weirder.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

See? Ultimate is the second fastest developed Smash Bros. after Melee, and only because Melee was constructed on a solid prexisting base.Clearly, at some point they had toaccelerate the process becausethe Switched needed a new Smash Bros.
On the other side, it has been six years since the Ultimate's release and there is no sight of a new Smash Bros. at the horizon, making this the longest interval in the series. Which in a schrodinger way is both good news and bad news, since they are either taking their time to project the new Smash Bros. or not making a new Smash Bros. at all.

......You realize Sakurai worked on other things between Smash games, right? Things like Meteos, Kirby Air Ride, Kid Icarus Uprising and so on...

Ultimate's development was actually on par if not longer than Smash 4's. And Ultimate didn't split the team between two consoles.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

In all honesty Ultimate feels like Super Smash Bros. 4 DX with extra steps, in the good and the bad way.
It was clearly rushed AF (Sakurai got even ill in the process) because the lifespan of the Wii was shoryer than planned. So, while they had planned a huge roster, they had to fill the slots ASAP, and that required some tricks: Zelda and Samus were left sperated from Sheik and Zero Suit Samus, the Mii fighters were spread on three different slots, all the cut characters returned, a lot of new characters were created using prexisting characters and labeled as "echo characters", trophies were skipped at all and substituted by "spirits", which are basically the Stickers of Brawl but less refined. The story mode was built on battles, with no cutscenes at all.
Conclusion: With more time and less rush to develope Super Smash Bros. Ultimate could have been even more outstanding than it actually is. Which also means the next Smash Bros. might have all the gimmicks and features that were skipped on the current one, and I don't see any time constriction on its developement.

As G Guynamednelson said, 3-5 years is a normal dev cycle for a AAA game, and with it being built off of SSBWiiU, I don't think it's that farfetch'd to say that it wasn't actually all that rushed. Everything else you mentioned was just stuff that's on the project plan: The cut characters returning was the big selling point, and they made an effort to grab as many stages as they could alongside them. Trophies may have made the change due to Ultimate's focus, but IIRC, Sakurai was saying that they were getting kind of ridiculous to develop anyway. Objectively, Spirits are more of a tradeoff than a downgrade, since while they don't have potentially new 3D models with new posing and there's no blurb to tell you who the character is, there are more of them, and thee spirit battles are able to give you at least some of that info through gameplay. World of Light was more of a Spirit showcase than anything, but it does have cutscenes. And yeah, Spirits are kind of dumb in regular matches, so there's room for improvement there, but they work great in Spirit Battles.

Zelda and Samus were probably left separate because the former never really worked as a duo, and the latter were more of an easter egg than an actual stance character. Echo Fighters were either on the project plan, or were added last minute like most clones are. As for why there's so many this time, I'd wager it's due to the Smash Ballot, and the fact that bringing everyone else back meant that full newcomers were going to be limited.

There are definitely things to dislike about Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, and any of these reasons are reasonable to have, but they aren't really the result of the game being rushed.

 

[fogbadge]

Uhmmm... Good point! Which also makes the current gap even weirder.

but we know what he's been up. he keeps posting videos about it

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Uhmmm... Good point! Which also makes the current gap even weirder.

It should be noted that he's actually worked on the game until late 2021. Dude was all hands on deck for the DLC as well.

This also means there were virtually no gaps between Smash 4 and Ultimate, since he had a project plan for the latter before Corrin and Bayonette even released in the former.

Combine that with the fact that Smash 4 started being worked on in early 2012 and... the dude basically did Smash almost non-stop for nearly a whole decade. Insane work ethic or not, I'd definitely want a break after doing the same thing for 10 years.

 

[Gengar84]

Do you think they could have adjusted the gameplay of Zelda and Sheik so they did actually play well off each other as a duo rather than splitting them up? I realize they had issues but I’m not sure it was an unfixable problem. They managed to make Pokemon Trainer work well in Ultimate despite their own problems in Brawl. I just thought the transformation idea was cool and I’m still sad to see it dropped. I wonder if they could have salvaged the idea with a better balanced character.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Do you think they could have adjusted the gameplay of Zelda and Sheik so they did actually play well off each other as a duo rather than splitting them up? I realize they had issues but I’m not sure it was an unfixable problem. They managed to make Pokemon Trainer work well in Ultimate despite their own problems in Brawl. I just thought the transformation idea was cool and I’m still sad to see it dropped. I wonder if they could have salvaged the idea with a better balanced character.

Regardless of whether or not it's unfixable, there's still enough solo Sheik mains to warrant splitting the two anyway.

Also, in regards to whether or not any Smash game is rushed, I have a hot take on the idea that Melee is rushed: It isn't. Even with its clones and glitches, it still manages to add a substantial amount of content 64 didn't have, and 1 year was a normal dev cycle back then anyway.

 

[Gengar84]

I think they could have made the transformation an extra move kind of like how the Inklings charge. It could have been cool to use one of the taunts for the transformation (and allow that one online). That way, solo Sheik and solo Zelda fans lose nothing but have the option to transform if they wanted to.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Do you think they could have adjusted the gameplay of Zelda and Sheik so they did actually play well off each other as a duo rather than splitting them up? I realize they had issues but I’m not sure it was an unfixable problem. They managed to make Pokemon Trainer work well in Ultimate despite their own problems in Brawl. I just thought the transformation idea was cool and I’m still sad to see it dropped. I wonder if they could have salvaged the idea with a better balanced character.

It was dropped due to what we assume was 3DS limitations and the second they became their own separate character, there was no going back. Even in a game where transformations would work.

It's like how Dr. Mario was a full character slot rather than an alt in Smash 4.

 

[Perkilator]

Do you think the 3DS version of Smash 4 should’ve been developed by a different studio, while Sakurai develops only the Wii U version?

 

[Gengar84]

It was dropped due to what we assume was 3DS limitations and the second they became their own separate character, there was no going back. Even in a game where transformations would work.

It's like how Dr. Mario was a full character slot rather than an alt in Smash 4.

Yeah, that’s unfortunate. I know I’m in the minority here but I’m not a fan of the changes that Smash 4 did to the series. I love transformation characters and I thought gliding was a really cool and fun idea even if it was unbalanced. That probably speaks to my casual status because I’m not really concerned about what’s competitively viable, just what I find the most fun. I can accept that the changes made the game better for a majority of fans so I can live with that.

 

[Hypercat-Z]

Trophies may have made the change due to Ultimate's focus, but IIRC, Sakurai was saying that they were getting kind of ridiculous to develop anyway. Objectively, Spirits are more of a tradeoff than a downgrade, since while they don't have potentially new 3D models with new posing and there's no blurb to tell you who the character is, there are more of them, and thee spirit battles are able to give you at least some of that info through gameplay. World of Light was more of a Spirit showcase than anything

I totally agree!
I wonder what could succeed to the Spirits in the next Smash.

It should be noted that he's actually worked on the game until late 2021. Dude was all hands on deck for the DLC as well.

This also means there were virtually no gaps between Smash 4 and Ultimate, since he had a project plan for the latter before Corrin and Bayonette even released in the former.

Combine that with the fact that Smash 4 started being worked on in early 2012 and... the dude basically did Smash almost non-stop for nearly a whole decade. Insane work ethic or not, I'd definitely want a break after doing the same thing for 10 years.

Uhmmmm... You're right. DLCs postpones the actual gap. Which ATM is just of three years.
You know? Regarding the smaller roster rumors, I was wondering: what if the roster of the next Smash Bros. starts small, like Brawl sized, only to leave more room for more DLC contents? And I mean more DLC contents than the past two Smash Bros. had

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Uhmmmm... You're right. DLCs postpones the actual gap. Which ATM is just of three years.
You know? Regarding the smaller roster rumors, I was wondering: what if the roster of the next Smash Bros. starts small, like Brawl sized, only to leave more room for more DLC contents? And I mean more DLC contents than the past two Smash Bros. had

So you're saying they'd have all the stuff but deliberately hold it back because of sales? Or that they would spend several years making content?

I just want to see your mindset here.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Do you think they could have adjusted the gameplay of Zelda and Sheik so they did actually play well off each other as a duo rather than splitting them up? I realize they had issues but I’m not sure it was an unfixable problem. They managed to make Pokemon Trainer work well in Ultimate despite their own problems in Brawl. I just thought the transformation idea was cool and I’m still sad to see it dropped. I wonder if they could have salvaged the idea with a better balanced character.

I think they could if Zelda worked as intended. As it stands, Zelda still doesn't work as intended, making the separation feel more like Sheik dropping her baggage.

Zelda really needs a rework. Like, I don't think you need to get rid of all of her iconic attacks, but she needs the rest of her kit to be able to set up the reads she needs to Lightning Kick you or something rather than just hiding behind how good Phantom is.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Trophies may have made the change due to Ultimate's focus, but IIRC, Sakurai was saying that they were getting kind of ridiculous to develop anyway. Objectively, Spirits are more of a tradeoff than a downgrade, since while they don't have potentially new 3D models with new posing and there's no blurb to tell you who the character is, there are more of them, and thee spirit battles are able to give you at least some of that info through gameplay. World of Light was more of a Spirit showcase than anything, but it does have cutscenes. And yeah, Spirits are kind of dumb in regular matches, so there's room for improvement there, but they work great in Spirit Battles.

Tbh if the little descriptions a la Trophies came back and they were applied to Spirits, I'd be more than okay with Spirits to save on dev time.

I know there's like 1528 of them so writing descriptions for them would definitely reduce the overall number and I get why they didn't, but yeah.

 

[Hypercat-Z]

So you're saying they'd have all the stuff but deliberately hold it back because of sales? Or that they would spend several years making content?

I just want to see your mindset here.

The latest one.
But maybe (MAYBE) no more blind fighter pass. Maybe a new character every three months. Maybe whenever a new videogame is developed their protagonist will have a chance to end up in Smash Bros. in the following season.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Maybe a new character every three months.

They couldn't do that for Ultimate, they certainly won't for the next game. Now THAT would be rushed AF.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

The latest one.
But maybe (MAYBE) no more blind fighter pass. Maybe a new character every three months. Maybe whenever a new videogame is developed their protagonist will have a chance to end up in Smash Bros. in the following season.

I think the blind passes are the way to go for a big crossover like this, honestly.

I don't like not knowing when a trailer will drop, but if we already know the whole lineup, there would be significantly less talk about the game.

 

[Perkilator]

I think the blind passes are the way to go for a big crossover like this, honestly.

I don't like not knowing when a trailer will drop, but if we already know the whole lineup, there would be significantly less talk about the game.

I think at the very least, we ought to know the release window for each fighter.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I think at the very least, we ought to know the release window for each fighter.

That would be a very good compromise, even if it's just "Summer 20XX"

 

[Hypercat-Z]

Tbh if the little descriptions a la Trophies came back and they were applied to Spirits, I'd be more than okay with Spirits to save on dev time.

I know there's like 1528 of them so writing descriptions for them would definitely reduce the overall number and I get why they didn't, but yeah.

Maybe they could make them like cards, with something to do with em. And maybe they could feature only main characters and not every small object, and be more consistent this time. Stunt Race FX has just five characters and only two of them appeared as Spirits.
NGL, I was hoping Coupe from that game was one of the DLC characters. I still love how sassy she is: