Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Black Shadow can work if loosely based upon the Smash 4/Brawl Ganondorf, but only to a certain degree. Like, he's a big burly guy(and actually fits Ganondorf's shape more than Falcon's), so him being slow isn't a big deal. He does deal in black magic too. Also, we don't see his actual physical speed, just his vehicle's. So him being slow or fast isn't really defined that well. That said, he works as some kind of clone(not an Echo, though).

Even then, you clearly can't slap Ganondorf's old moveset on as said above. You can still base it upon an older version, but not every move works. Dark Dive does, but anything sword-related doesn't. Flame Choke wouldn't make sense, but making it a black magic version or even reusing Gerudo Dragon is fitting enough to him. Besides that, Ganondorf most definitely punches in canon(and in official artwork too), so it's not like he shouldn't be doing that or kicking in general. These are actions he legitimately does.

Overall, the idea has to be done carefully, but it doesn't make sense to use it to try and replace Ganondorf's moveset at this point. Not when it was already updated to be even more close to his portrayals(at least the normal version of him. TOTK is quite clearly a different Ganondorf by that point, having zero ties to Demise. It does help that BOTW/TOTK is practically its own thing with at most a non-canon spin-off in a HW game created based upon it). At worst, his sword is a non-canon design... but still actually fits his more brutish nature(which was in OOT/WW/TP to begin with). He just needs better balance, since despite being made more unique, he's gotten worse balance-wise. But, you know, having zero ways to deal with a projectile... oof.

 

[Perkilator]

What if Ganondorf was reworked to be based on Tears of the Kingdom but there was a second Ganondorf who retained most of Ganondorf’s old moveset lol

 

[Nabbitfan730]

Toriyama's passing has me reflecting on Hero's addition quite a bit. Given Sakurai's posts grieving this loss it's safe to assume working with Toriyama's characters meant a great deal to everyone involved. I'm not sure what the future of Square Enix's Smash collaborations may look like but I hope it involves Dragon Quest, if not for its great legacy then certainly for the wide influence Toriyama's creative voice has had on many of Smash's most beloved characters spanning every genre. Mario, Sonic, Cloud... Keeping that history in mind makes Hero's presence feel all the more valuable, from Dragon Quest and beyond.

Dragon Quest 12 will be most likely the final DQ with Toriyama's influence. I hope with that in mind is enough for it getting represented for the next Smash whether be a new protagonist or so on. Would be a great way to preserve history

I was lukewarm and a bit dissapointed with Hero's reveal but became my one of favorite characters on the release. His spells and RNG nature really does speak more to the chaotic and party nature of Smash which is real fun.

The biggest killer is that now we will never ever an Smash encompassing artwork for DQ from Toriyama like Nomura and Ken did for Cloud and Greninja did respectively.

Really does hurt the soul.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Eh, Black Shadow doesn't have a sword

Good. The classic 'dorf moveset didn't need it.

and he's not slow.

Based on what? All he does in the F-Zero games is sit in a car.

What if Ganondorf was reworked to be based on Tears of the Kingdom

Yes.

but there was a second Ganondorf who retained most of Ganondorf’s old moveset lol

No. Black Shadow is the way to go. Ganondorf is the only clone in the game who is cloned from a character from a different series. And that needs to stop.

Dragon Quest 12 will be most likely the final DQ with Toriyama's influence. I hope with that in mind is enough for it getting represented for the next Smash whether be a new protagonist or so on. Would be a great way to preserve history

If Sakurai is looking to memorialize Toriyama further, I'd rather he added Crono instead.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Based on what? All he does in the F-Zero games is sit in a car.

An F-Zero character can't be one of the slowest characters in the game. Makes no sense.
Black Bull is also one of the fastest vehicles iirc

 

[Dinoman96]

The biggest killer is that now we will never ever an Smash encompassing artwork for DQ from Toriyama like Nomura and Ken did for Cloud and Greninja did respectively.

I keep saying this but it legitimately blows that they didn't bother to do character posters for all of Ultimate's newcomer lineup like they did in Smash 4. Serious missed opportunity to not get Toriyama to draw Mario, Bowser, etc back in 2019.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

As far as Dragon Quest and Nintendo/Smash, I think it also worth noting the business reality of certain Square Enix franchises in Japan, namely that SE's stuff is struggling to do big numbers back home if it's not on Switch. Final Fantasy VII Rebirth has been one of the most heavily hyped and advertised games by the company in the last two years and its first week physical sales back home were less than that of Super Mario RPG remake and Dragon Quest Monsters the Dark Prince. Common sense expectation at this point are that Dragon Quest XII's bulk numbers will be dominated by the Switch/Switch 2 version and that barring a major shift in the console market there, the most practical move is to maintain as many RPG's on Nintendo consoles as possible.

While obviously there are other factors when it comes to a series representation in Smash and honoring Toriyama's work would be highest priority to Square Enix, Sakurai, and Nintendo, quite frankly its within SE's best interest to keep that kind of synergy going given how much the market for much of their releases has shifted to systems like the Switch.

 

[DarthEnderX]

An F-Zero character can't be one of the slowest characters in the game. Makes no sense.

W...what the hell does that have to do with the driver?!

F-Zero games are fast because the CARS are fast. The people in them have nothing to do with it!

You gonna try and tell me that these guys are fast on their feet?

Black Bull is also one of the fastest vehicles iirc

So what? Bowser is one of the fastest karts in Mario Kart. Does that make him fast in Smash?

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

W...what the hell does that have to do with the driver?!

F-Zero games are fast because the CARS are fast. The people in them have nothing to do with it!

You gonna try and tell me that these guys are fast on their feet?
View attachment 386208 View attachment 386209

One is an android and the other is an alien. For all we know, they can move fast despite their mass
But if this is what we're looking at, Black Shadow himself is F'ing ripped. He's even more ripped than Captain Falcon. I bet he could outrun Mario and his stubby legs.

More seriously though, F-Zero characters of course don't have much to work with in terms of moveset. There's one starting point though if you want to keep them true to the spirit of F-Zero: they need to go fast.
Falcon himself, there's nothing about his visual design that tells us he's a particularly fast runner; yet they made him the fastest character in Smash (bar Sonic) because going fast is what F-Zero is about... Yet Black Shadow would need to be a slug because we just have to shoehorn on him a moveset that wasn't built with him in mind.

As for Bowser... I mean, it's not because of Mario Kart, but as of Ultimate he's actually a decently fast character.

 

[superprincess]

RE: Ganondorf rework

I think people are over exaggerating the implications that a TOTK Ganondorf redesign would have on Smash Ganondorf. It's a repeat of the BOTW Link speculation all over again, people proposing many more changes than we'll end up getting.

TOTK Ganondorf could literally be as much as an aesthetic overhaul. Give him red and black Gloom effects instead of the generic purple stuff he has now, and replace the Spaceworld 2000 Demo sword with his Gloom Sword from TOTK. The new sword would be quite a bit shorter, so it'd have a bit less range, but it could be made a little faster to compensate.

I also had a fun idea to incorporate his weaponry from TOTK without changing the traditional Smash Ganondorf moveset too much: Warlock Punch would simply be reskinned to a powerful swing of the Gloom Club. Wizard's Foot on the ground would be updated to a forward rush with the Gloom Spear, and a diagonally downwards one in midair. Granted, this would mean that these moves would have slight disjoints now, but... look, Ganondorf is deemed the worst character in the game by a pretty wide margin, I think he can use the extra range. These moves are super slow anyway, so he couldn't even space with them.

This does leave out the Demon King's Bow, but I think that shoehorning it in the specials wouldn't fit Ganondorf at all and would be kinda "been there, done that" as the Links, Pit/Dark Pit and Byleth all already have bow neutral specials. Perhaps Ganondorf's bow can be used in his forward & up throws; similar to Falco's back & up throws or Mewtwo's forward throw, Ganondorf throws his opponent and then shoots a Gloom projectile at them using his bow. Yes, this means Ganondorf can eventually kill with these throws... but again, his current ones suck and it is pretty weird that the Triforce of Power wielder can't finish people off with any of his throws.

The Final Smash is obvious so I won't go into that, but I'd also give him a new up tilt because the Volcano Kick seems really unfitting for this version of Ganondorf (also it sucks, literally and figuratively). I'd replace it with a simple uppercut, think Terry's, but slower and stronger and enhanced with Gloom energy. So not like Terry's at all, but you get the idea. I'd also buff Dark Dive to have floatier physics, but that goes more into rebalancing territory. Make his dodge the backflip from his boss fight and voila! TOTK Ganondorf's in Smash without changing virtually anything about current Ganondorf's playstyle in Smash.

 

[Ivander]

W...what the hell does that have to do with the driver?!

F-Zero games are fast because the CARS are fast. The people in them have nothing to do with it!

You gonna try and tell me that these guys are fast on their feet?
View attachment 386208 View attachment 386209

It has to be a trope at this point where sometimes the big wide heavy people are surprisingly much faster than the regular sized people. Because I've lost count on how many times I've seen it in media.

 

[cashregister9]

As for F-zero I just want Deathborn because he is super edgy looking and that is my jam

W...what the hell does that have to do with the driver?!

F-Zero games are fast because the CARS are fast. The people in them have nothing to do with it!

You gonna try and tell me that these guys are fast on their feet?

I agree that not all F-zero characters need to be fast

as for the second comment though

 

[JOJONumber691]

W...what the hell does that have to do with the driver?!

F-Zero games are fast because the CARS are fast. The people in them have nothing to do with it!

You gonna try and tell me that these guys are fast on their feet?
View attachment 386208 View attachment 386209

So what? Bowser is one of the fastest karts in Mario Kart. Does that make him fast in Smash?

Bowser is actually decently speedy as of now though?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Bowser was also pretty fast in Melee overall. He did get a tad slower, but he's not that slow either.

Some of his attacks are sluggish, though. But that's due to him being presented as a ferocious monster. His wrestling-style moves are naturally a bit slow too.

But yeah, no, Black Shadow being super slow doesn't make a lot of sense. Like, average speed you could barely justify due to his build, but whereas Ganondorf does have slow movements in the Zelda games(he doesn't "float" fast. Ganon is surprisingly a lot faster than Ganondorf at times, especially when it comes to teleport speed) too. Black Shadow's only "slowness" is acceleration speed, which frankly isn't a good factor to look at. It could mean some of his attacks might start up slower, sure. But otherwise, you can really only base his speed upon stats in-game. And his vehicle is quite fast. While he can perform some of Ganondorf's moves, sure, a ton are too slow to really fit him. Ganondorf really only presents a good model build to work with, but he'd still be quite a bit faster either way, even if he was a clone of the current Dorf. Kind of a reverse of Falcon to Dorf, if you will.

But yeah, that's not even counting how he doesn't use weapons, so blatantly he couldn't take the Ultimate moveset. As I said before, you could loosely base him upon Brawl/4's design, but with what was said earlier about how he's not really slow anyway, you can't make him some kind of Echo or even a regular clone. He'd be a semi-clone at best. And he most definitely can't take the old moveset and even remotely be true to his character(at least Ganondorf uses some of those moves and his personality is right. He'd be far more accurate in comparison, and that's saying something).

It was an interesting idea, but doesn't hold up to scrutiny and better research. That, and we know it wouldn't realistically happen in Smash. Now, the idea of a second Ganondorf being introduced based upon TOTK, while unlikely, at least has a better chance. Characters don't get added just to completely take an old moveset. It didn't happen with Toon Link when he replaced Young Link, after all. Toon Link was just basically a completely different character based upon the animations, but still played quite differently from both(and Young Link already didn't play like Link. Sharing animations =/= playing like. Sharing a few moves even then wasn't entirely accurate, as they had too many different properties. It was really only Dr. Mario and Mario in Melee that played almost the same. The rest were significantly different).

It has to be a trope at this point where sometimes the big wide heavy people are surprisingly much faster than the regular sized people. Because I've lost count on how many times I've seen it in media.

Fisk from Spider-Man is rather fast. I think it was called Acrofatic or something like that?

Wario sometimes can be considered that too. But yeah, it's absolutely a thing in fighting games. Albeit, Black Shadow isn't an example of a "too large" character anyway, so him being fast with what is clearly an athletic build? It makes a lot of sense. Ganondorf actually doesn't have one outside of Melee, and they also sped him up when he returned to that design in Ultimate. It's just TP Ganondorf that is slow as molasses(look at that extreme amount of armor, but also, he purposely was fairly slow in the game. Not to the same degree as Brawl/4, though. He had fast moments. Though that was focused on the swordplay, less so on anything else).

 

[DarthEnderX]

It was an interesting idea, but doesn't hold up to scrutiny and better research.

But the so-called "research" is a bunch of nonsense! The stats of Black Shadow's CAR have nothing to do with the stats of Black Shadow, the PERSON. His freakin' muscles don't power his car's engine!

This is just people who don't want Ganondorf to get a new moveset, making up excuses for why he shouldn't.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Fisk from Spider-Man is rather fast. I think it was called Acrofatic or something like that?

It's because of his W E I G H T.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

What if Ganondorf was reworked to be based on Tears of the Kingdom but there was a second Ganondorf who retained most of Ganondorf’s old moveset lol

...Why not just add TOTK Ganondorf and do more updates on the current Dorf?

It's pretty much the exact same thing, just said differently. The only change is the character name, I guess? Which isn't worth it, since people recognize Falcondorf as the current Ganondorf anyway. Like, everybody recognizes the original character and their moveset(which is only updated, even with the most major of changes we got). When they add effectively a new character, they give them a new name. Toon Link is a prime example of this, who took over Young Link's spot but was the same philosophy. Since he's a different character, he got a fully new name, and they didn't simply rename Young Link instead.

It basically doesn't really help during development. Ganondorf is hard defined moveset-wise like everybody else. Thus, yeah, just add another Ganondorf based upon TOTK(you just need a good name, heh. Sadly, we don't have something good like Toon Ganondorf). Maybe just call him Malice Ganondorf? It's slightly off(since the Malice is a bit more separated from Ganondorf than Ganon usually would be). Or maybe Demon Ganondorf could work better.

 

[Kirbeh]

I am still an advocate of multiple Dorfs. OoT can remain Falcondorf, then add ToTK and classic trident wielding Ganon on top. If anything make it four and throw in Toon Ganondorf alongside Toon Zelda and Tetra. And then add a bunch of other Zelda newcomers while they're at. Yes this is biased and totally unreasonable, why do you ask?

As for naming if we did ever actually get a second Dorf, I will more seriously make the suggestion that they simply refer to both as Ganondorf. It's really not that big a deal. Put them on the same CSS slot and add a toggle feature. Do the same for Doc, Sheik and ZSS. They'd still be separate on stats logs and all that stuff. Just makes the CSS look a bit more organized.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

If we get another Zelda character that is a variation of an already existing character, I will flip this table.

Give us someone new please.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

If we get another Zelda character that is a variation of an already existing character, I will flip this table.

Give us someone new please.

Got it.

New table.
Though to be serious, will you accept Midna & Wolf Link despite half the equation being a Link?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Ehhhhhhhh, no. The name is actually a lot bigger of a deal than people make it. It's way too confusing to have the exact same name. Just give them alternate takes on the names. Besides, he actually is named Dr. Mario and she is actually named Sheik. Zero Suit Samus is the only unique name among what was mentioned(though don't forget the Links as well). Never mind how Dark Samus is an actual different person altogether. But that's who she is.

Besides, it clashes completely with the Echo Stacking. It's not an awful idea being able to group "technically same characters" together, but in practice, it doesn't actually work that well on a CSS. If you were using a drop down menu to choose characters, then it works. But we're not. People also are going to quite easily wonder why Dark Samus, who looks like Samus, isn't grouped with Samus? Or why if you keep Echo Stacking, Daisy, who is clearly not Peach, is grouped in the same way two of the same people are(also, Sheik isn't the same Zelda anymore, so that idea isn't entirely as feasible).

It's a huge deal due to confusion. They didn't randomly add the unique names for the sake of it. It's an outright different character in Smash. If you want to play as Dr. Mario, you don't choose Mario. They're blatantly different takes on the character. This could be slightly more logical... if Dr. Mario wasn't heavily separated in terms of design so he could be an Echo. If they kept him much closer to Mario(hell, even in Smash 4 he was rather changed up, but not thattttt much), sure. But they didn't. They changed him too much.

Incidentally, I do wish Sakurai would define Echoes better than "same bodyshape" effectively. We don't have another clear detail at all. Weight is not said by him, but by Reggie. And while it remains true, that doesn't make it an official rule.

 

[cashregister9]

If we get another Zelda character that is a variation of an already existing character, I will flip this table.

Give us someone new please.

On one hand I 100% agree and there are so many other great Zelda characters

but on the other hand Tetra is one of my most wanted...

 

[Ivander]

If we get another Zelda character that is a variation of an already existing character, I will flip this table.

Give us someone new please.

Might want to start attaching the pillows onto it preemptively.

It's going to be a long wait till the next Smash Bros is announced and it's pretty much anyone's guess on what they'll do with Legend of Zelda. But that Zelda character variation, especially BotW/TotK Zelda, looks just as likely as a new character from Zelda.

 

[Kirbeh]

Ehhhhhhhh, no. The name is actually a lot bigger of a deal than people make it. It's way too confusing to have the exact same name. Just give them alternate takes on the names. Besides, he actually is named Dr. Mario and she is actually named Sheik. Zero Suit Samus is the only unique name among what was mentioned(though don't forget the Links as well). Never mind how Dark Samus is an actual different person altogether. But that's who she is.

Besides, it clashes completely with the Echo Stacking. It's not an awful idea being able to group "technically same characters" together, but in practice, it doesn't actually work that well on a CSS. If you were using a drop down menu to choose characters, then it works. But we're not. People also are going to quite easily wonder why Dark Samus, who looks like Samus, isn't grouped with Samus? Or why if you keep Echo Stacking, Daisy, who is clearly not Peach, is grouped in the same way two of the same people are(also, Sheik isn't the same Zelda anymore, so that idea isn't entirely as feasible).

It's a huge deal due to confusion. They didn't randomly add the unique names for the sake of it. It's an outright different character in Smash. If you want to play as Dr. Mario, you don't choose Mario. They're blatantly different takes on the character. This could be slightly more logical... if Dr. Mario wasn't heavily separated in terms of design so he could be an Echo. If they kept him much closer to Mario(hell, even in Smash 4 he was rather changed up, but not thattttt much), sure. But they didn't. They changed him too much.

Incidentally, I do wish Sakurai would define Echoes better than "same bodyshape" effectively. We don't have another clear detail at all. Weight is not said by him, but by Reggie. And while it remains true, that doesn't make it an official rule.

To clarify I don't want them to drop the Dr. In Dr. Mario or start calling Sheik Zelda. In this particular scenario I would also completely do away with echo stacking. They would simply be placed right after their corresponding original.

I also disagree with the notion that it would be too confusing this way. This isn't something new to fighting games, though it is less common in the one's you're probably thinking of.

There are instances of alternative versions of characters in some older 2d anime fighters that were selectable from the same slot but by pressing the select or start button rather than the normal confirm input. That said that's also not how I think it should be done for Smash.

We currently have several buttons all mapped to scrolling through colors. XY, L/R, and ZL/ZR. One pair stays on colors. Another goes to toggling proper alternative costumes and the last goes to alternates when applicable. Or like you said they should just make a menu for it like other fighters. Characters with an alternate would also have an additional icon hovering over their render to denote that an alternate is available.

Going back to the names. I am still in favor of just calling both Ganondorf and dropping the Zero Suit from the actual annoncer call. Just add the particulars in parentheses in the records. And if you really want to give them different names just call ToTk Dorf "Demon King Ganondorf". It's a mouthful but so is Zero Suit Samus.

 

[Arcanir]

I feel my problem with the second Ganondorf idea is that it comes with its own issues. You avoid having to change Falcondorf for fans who prefer him, but you still add to the problem of the Zelda cast being variants of the trio and still not tap into the many popular newcomer options that many fans would prefer like Skull Kid or one of the old/new Champions. It feels like sidestepping the issue into another set of issues while still not properly addressing the first, and it doesn't seem like the best way to approach that.

 

[Noipoi]

What if they added pig Ganon?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

To clarify I don't want them to drop the Dr. In Dr. Mario or start calling Sheik Zelda. In this particular scenario I would also completely do away with echo stacking. They would simply be placed right after their corresponding original.

I also disagree with the notion that it would be too confusing this way. This isn't something new to fighting games, though it is less common in the one's you're probably thinking of.

There are instances of alternative versions of characters in some older 2d anime fighters that were selectable from the same slot but by pressing the select or start button rather than the normal confirm input. That said that's also not how I think it should be done for Smash.

We currently have several buttons all mapped to scrolling through colors. XY, L/R, and ZL/ZR. One pair stays on colors. Another goes to toggling proper alternative costumes and the last goes to alternates when applicable. Or like you said they should just make a menu for it like other fighters. Characters with an alternate would also have an additional icon hovering over their render to denote that an alternate is available.

Going back to the names. I am still in favor of just calling both Ganondorf and dropping the Zero Suit from the actual annoncer call. Just add the particulars in parentheses in the records. And if you really want to give them different names just call ToTk Dorf "Demon King Ganondorf". It's a mouthful but so is Zero Suit Samus.

Records aren't enough. People know the characters strictly by name and compare them to the Records based upon actually playing the character.

It's inconsistent and doesn't solve anything. This isn't the same as some EX Idea. Like, if it was choosing a character and on the CSS it said Samus(Zero Suit), that's fine. But they need to be consistent for both so others aren't confused.

Other fighting games are different and don't work how Smash does. Smash treats every character with even the tiniest difference as an entirely separate one(even if they could be merged sometimes. Giga Bowser went through this, Metal Mario and Giant DK went through, and also are still kept as mini-bosses too at times, etc.).

It doesn't actually work. And Echo Stacking still sounds better because it's actually a consistent thing with no confusion. You still know who you're selecting. I'm not selecting Samus. I'm selecting Zero Suit Samus(or even Samus(Zero Suit) for a decent alternate name). And it doesn't matter if it's a mouthful. What matters is that it's clearly not the same character as the other one, so they are hard given other names so there's never confusion at any point for anyone.

Besides, it wasn't till way later that EX Costumes even got their own records. It was just the same guy with a special change(like in early Marvel VS Capcom). Which was already confusing enough, but at least you know exactly you were still playing as Ryu with the same record. They also had clone characters with sometimes their own names, but the records were clearly different even then. They never attempted to stack those kind, as it was way too confusing. There's a reason people called alternates things like Orange Hulk instead of Hulk, or say, Hyper Venom. People did give a few nicknames at times(for less confusion), but they still gave alternate names anyway.

It's very pointless to stack characters who aren't even some kind of clone at this point. It enters a much higher confusion than is needed. This is a very casual game. People know Link because he's a tall adult. People know Toon Link due to the artstyle and being a child. People know Young Link due to being a more traditional design, but smaller. Etc. These names are a massive deal in Smash and are heavy designations that are kept for multiple games straight. It confuses veterans and makes people wonder why on earth you would use an inaccurate name for no legitimate benefit. You could still stack them(assuming Echo stacking is gone) but retain their identical name without a single bit of confusion. Or the slight parenthesis variant. You may also be forgetting how Sakurai has gone on record saying Records were already difficult to work with, which is why he refused to do "Costumes with differences of any kind". Do you really honestly think he would use a more confusing route(or frankly, anyone who pays attention to Smash's history) when it only creates more oddities that don't need to exist?

Frankly, no. It's a terrible idea. It doesn't work and doesn't legitimately improve the game. Stacking is cool. Completely removing unique names is not actually a useful tool. Never mind how much it hurts even costumes who now at least kept unique names and have to give them up. Yay, Alph is now named... Olimar for no given reason. While it is true the records aren't as kind to Alph(something that should be easy to change, which is to make the most popular costume be noted in some way by changing the name only) or the Koopalings respectively, at least that's a case of Sakurai making it clear he has trouble separating data for costumes. In other words, it was never plausible due to clashing data that would be misleading. Now it'd be even more misleading, since it's not just a costume, but a completely different character.

-----------------------

As for TOTK Ganondorf or Pig Ganon? I frankly don't care if they're "based or related to a previous character". I think they're good additions because they're fun and unique. Pig Ganon alone took a while to even make a somewhat minor appearance. There's multiple Zelda characters that should get in too, and not even a reference to ALTTP Ganon, the most iconic form, is flabbergasting at this point. There's no reason he's not at least a Spirit by now. Him being playable would be a great addition. We have tons otherwise for notable characters(more than one version of Impa alone, two separate Tingle versions(Toon and regular. Toon is a lot more greedy even in his nicer games like MC, but also is a different person from the MM one, which never reappeared outside of HW respectively), and then you got the one-offs like Midna(with Wolf Link), Ghirahim, Demise, Zant, Beedle, and so on.

There's just a ton of memorable characters. Not getting a new one after Brawl is frustrating, agreed. But I frankly am not picky because there's too many with cool potential. (Note that I didn't even mention Toon Zelda and Tetra yet, and even funnier is that Toon Sheik was considered an ideal semi-clone akin to Toon Link first. Albeit, I feel like Tetra would've been done due to it being much more difficult to make an all new model at that point. Doesn't really change what the clear plan was. I do feel he considered Tetra at least, considering her being on a Smash Poll, but that's just a guess).

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Got it.

New table.
Though to be serious, will you accept Midna & Wolf Link despite half the equation being a Link?

Yes because that's Midna with a steed

 

[Gorgonzales]

it's wild to me that people are talking like Falcondorf has grandfathered himself in as some iconic part of the series when in reality he's a blemish that's persisted ever since Melee because newcomers are always prioritized over veteran reworks. If he gets reworked (which he absolutely 100% should), Falcondorf fans can move on to Kazuya or something, he hits thrice as hard anyways and is like Falcondorf if he was competitively viable and also cracked. If you want Falcondorf's moveset.... literally just play Falcon. There's alternative avenues to get your fix, and the old games will always be there if you're really into the moveset he currently has.

Ganondorf in his current state is not worth keeping around. If there was a time to turn him into an actual character that doesn't to a terrible Captain Falcon impression, it's now. He's one of Nintendo's main recurring villains and he's treated like dirt in Smash, only recieving sword Smash attacks in Ultimate (FOUR [4] games after Melee) like some sort of pity consolation prize. It's baffling to me that a character with this kind of legacy and moveset potential is utterly squandered like this.

I'm not even a super huge Ganondorf fan, I'm just pointing out how his portrayal could be a lot better for one of Nintendo's flagship antagonists.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Yes because that's Midna with a steed

Ironically even the amiibo doesn't bother to mention her. For some silly reason it's just called the "Wolf Link amiibo". It's really sucky too. It's not like the extra letters matter, yeish.

Spoiler

That said, I don't agree the current Ganondorf is some kind of blemish. He's a brutish character who clearly uses magic in practice. ...Which is actually how Ganondorf legitimately operates, even before OOT. He's a magical user with a lot of physical force he will gladly use when deployed. Yes, him getting more physical attacks in WW and TP is probably because Smash gave him more life, but he is depicted with his Forward Air in official art for OOT. Two of his animations are a Kick and a Punch in OOT. He's even more murderous and brutish in TP, and WW has him physically assault Link before pulling out his swords.

Could he use a bit more weaponry and some other kind of magic? Sure. That would just further add to him. But he isn't actually inaccurate in the long run. It's only two moves that really are out there(Gerudo Dragon and Dark Dive) at best. The rest still completely fit him and his personality. Dark Dive should be a teleport, at least. His Up Tilt does admittedly suck, but him being patient isn't off either. He'll bide his time and attack with extreme force(in Melee alone it's one of the most powerful moves in the game).

Besides, Ganon used weapons well before Ganondorf did. Him not starting with a weapon is actually quite accurate to OOT. He was missing only one actual move of note, and that's for balance reasons(both balancing how to make such a sluggish character work with a projectile that charges up, but also how to handle a weird reflective property, which mind you said projectile was not named till Phantom Hourglass, years later. And... by then it was thrown onto tons of other characters, including much more generic boss-like ones. A Blue Stalfos/Grim Reaper. Twinrova. The Cubus Sisters. Even regular Ganon bothered to use it too, not just Ganondorf. And it started with Aga(as well as Nightmare Aga) first as a boss concept, not an actual logical player character move. Is it really a surprise that some boss moves aren't feasible to properly convey in Smash for a playable character? Of course not.

The only other thing missing from Ganondorf maybe besides his earthquake attack is... an ability to legitimately deal with projectiles. It doesn't have to be a reflector. Just something. This is a notable and odd omission that wouldn't even change his core intact. The one that is a highly popular one among the playerbase and has defined him for many games(and yes, he is worth keeping. He's really damn popular and is barely inaccurate as well in practice).

 

[YeppersPeppers]

For me, if a fighting game roster consists of various characters from various IPs crossing over then including alternate versions of the same character will always be a bit of a stinker. I can understand why some people would like it from either a gameplay or representation standpoint, and I can understand certain contexts for why it has happened with Smash's roster (Sheik being tied to Zelda mechanically, Dr. Mario being a very quick and easy clone), but it still comes off as a teensy bit lame to me. ZSS is the biggest gear-grinder I have with the roster because of that.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

it's wild to me that people are talking like Falcondorf has grandfathered himself in as some iconic part of the series when in reality he's a blemish that's persisted ever since Melee because newcomers are always prioritized over veteran reworks.

At one point he was the most played character in Elite Smash according to Sakurai.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Zero Suit Samus is a funny addition; Sakurai wanted both a female character and a new Metroid addition. ZSS was the most plausible one(keep in mind, near identical clones were not on the table at until Ultimate. Echoes were a special case where not only were they given the label, but the first time all the characters were decided upon in base(and actually all made it too).

Brawl was the only other time the base roster was decided, but some didn't make it.

So why does that matter? It matters because Dark Samus had no real chance, and Ridley wasn't even on his mind as playable yet. It was her or nothing. She was handled poorly with the transformation mainly cause you couldn't turn back into Samus easily.

Let's also note the idea "ZSS is keeping Samus from being good" never held water in any way. Samus debuted well before that and with the same core moveset. She simply was not updated to become better because the core design was what was wanted. A sluggish character. That's not a good thing by itself, obviously. However, the idea of throwing ZSS' moves onto Samus? It doesn't work. They don't fit. Samus didn't even have super high agility till the 3D games too, where she gained more unique skills that let her move much faster. She had things more like jumping power and different kind of skills, but she was always given a factor of being more strong than speedy. We did eventually get some more interesting moves in more of the latest games, stuff like ways to counter enemy attacks. These are appropriate for her to have to change her up a bit. She doesn't need some weird paralyzer that she would never even use her in Varia Suit. She's an armored badass who gained a lot of power but lost her super easily mobility naturally.

In addition, paying attention to her design, she was always an athletic build, which was then given another special suit for her ZSS design. All Smash did was make it logical. She is faster when not encumbered by bulky armor. This... is extremely logical. What'd you expect to happen when both exist? But also note that Samus was not super fast even before we got ZSS in the GBA games. No. She was still somewhat slow and sluggish, bar certain abilities like a unique dash type skill. Which, imo, should be in Smash to help her game. The overall point is you can't fix her be removing a character, which doesn't do anything but just give less options. You help the character by actually adding improvements. Despite Ganondorf being bottom tier again, they did give him legitimate buffs(4 did too). Why? Because it made more sense than cutting characters. Fix the issues. There's always a good argument to be made on what issues need fixing, of course. But breaking another character to fix another one pretty much isn't a good argument and only hurts other players. There's other ways to say it, but it's easy to see why it's not a strategy employed in Smash(hell, rarely in other games too). It's just a cruel way to make a character better at the end of the day.

 

[Gorgonzales]

At one point he was the most played character in Elite Smash according to Sakurai.

Badly designed characters can still be fun to play.

Is Ganondorf fun? Yes. Do I think his design can be substantially improved while still retaining the powerful feeling from his previous Smash iterations? Well shoot, with Kazuya raising the bar for what a powerful character in Smash can feel like, I'd say absolutely.

 

[SPEN18]

I just don't see how a stereotypical "strong but slow" clone of a character from a completely different franchise whipped up twenty+ years ago when there was no time to spare could possibly be the best implementation for one of Nintendo's biggest of big-bads. And no, ripping a few sword moves from Ike doesn't solve the core issue. Continuing to build on top of such a flawed base can only get you so far.

But beyond the Ganondorf situation itself, the bigger issue here is I think a lot of fans would do well to relax this drive to perfectly preserve every playstyle. A new game is a new game, and usually it's healthier to let that be the case. So much of speculation gets centered around what we could possibly lose from changes rather than what could be gained.

Now, the majority of veterans I would say would be just fine getting only incremental improvements every game, but I dislike the philosophy of keeping things the same out of fear of alienating people. If a character's implementation can be optimized, then it should be optimized; you need to have conviction that the result will be just as if not more fun if your changes are well-thought-out and in-touch with the character and their fans.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

If you optimize by alienating previous players, you're doing a horrible job.

Making them the best they can be so previous players can also return and get better at them is a much more logical philosophy. Too many changes is not optimization in reality. It's just ignoring the players and making it look like all you care about is functions instead of the playerbase. The playerbase is always more important than functions.

Spoiler: Large images

Ike existed well after Ganondorf was planned to use that Sword. He was always meant to specifically be a powerful sword user(and still be a physical powerhouse. Probably a bit more magic too that isn't physical hits, but that's harder to say). Calling it "ripped from Ike" is a clear misunderstanding of why he even got those sword moves. Never mind it's only two that are similar, yet still distinct. Down Smash was more closer to Cloud's. So only a couple(but proper terminology aside), his design isn't actually flawed in that way. It's the refusal to give him a legitimate way to deal with projectiles that's a real flaw in his design. Being a massive powerful house(the wielder of the Triforce of Power no less) isn't a flaw. It's an extremely faithful way to keep his characterization and I commend Sakurai for continuing with using a really good concept.

Next, let's actually look at those Smashes;
-Up Smash is a funny one. So he raises his sword in an arc... just like his previous Up Smash, a powerful arc kick. In other words, all they did was extend the range as the concept, and saved time by using Ike's animations to make it faster.
-Forward Smash is the only one to not really resemble his previous Smash in some way. It's a completely different move in concept. His core one was an Elbow Smash, which notably he later uses something similar in TP anyway. In other words, the move became canon to him. The Sword slash ironically is less canon(though still fits his playstyle perfectly).
-Down Smash is actually similar to Cloud's, but the arc animation is fairly similar to his old Down Smash since Melee(which was mainly changed to be slower but with more power). Here it gains range, and the animation is clearly different due to being a sword instead of a leg and foot.

So only one of said Smashes is pretty much taken from another character, while the rest are evolutions of his previous design, but took a logical way to make it easier to implement.

Now compare these two. Incredibly, they're mostly the same animation, just one hits lower than the other. Their range is also different too. So yes, the Down Smashes are a straight evolution. Order shown is Ultimate and then 4.

Now these are clearly a similar kind of attack, but have a massive difference too. They're both upper swings, but one has way more range. Again, a clear evolution of the idea.

(Note that he has three angled Forward Smashes. They operate the same overall, just different, well angles).
This is the final set of Smashes. Whereas the other two have similarities, the only close thing they have is... they are clearly meant to be Forward Smashes.

Obviously, yes, the animations in Ultimate used other characters as sources to make the design faster to create. Things don't get ripped. They get borrowed from other characters because they make development easier. It's not some lazy hackjob. It's in fact one of the smartest development options you have. Not reusing assets makes things take way too long. The reason Ganondorf borrows from both Ike and Cloud is because he's meant to be a hard-hitting sword user(and even when he moves fast, like in WW, he hits like a truck when using a sword. These are perfectly in character. There's also no real better options since OOT doesn't have him wield a sword outside of the Tech Demo. His TP Sword, while used like a powerful broadsword, is somewhat notably very awkward to work with for a massive damage attacker in the sense of "hits like a truck". As this is Ganondorf's quite specific design, it's no surprise they only had his Tech Demo Sword in mind.

It's even more notable that his Katanas in Wind Waker are actually more broadsword-like than the one in TP, which is clearly meant to be a thinner blade by design, and thus, obviously is logical to use in a speedy way. One key thing to note along with that is that the Sword was empowered by the Sages, so it being able to do massive damage while not obviously acting weird(like a normal thin sword would) is a magical reason. They could justify it that way. And yes, that means they could've used it just fine in Smash too like that as Smash attacks. However, it's used much closer to its design. Probably because Sakurai does research and can see a thin blade wouldn't be used for power strikes in that way, even if it could handle it in this specific context.

But yeah, even subtly accusing them of some kind of laziness is rather unfair as they are developing things in a logical fashion to both meet deadlines and try and make a very functional game without issues. And they still had some issues at launch that required various fixes and couldn't even get some Modes in yet. If they didn't take shortcuts, we might have even less characters. They're necessary. Besides, the only other option was Ganondorf held no weapon at all and only got buffs. Is that really better than having a Sword befitting one of the most powerful characters in History? YMMV on that, but they put in a crapload of good effort on him. As I said, the mistake was not realizing he needs a defense against projectiles. The rest was good in concept. He plays quite a bit differently too, after all. You can't play him just like the previous games. He's not a case of alienating the other players, but they did try to optimize him too. They hit more of his characterization, gave him buffs, gave him a weapon people longed for(while others still want the core playstyle too, mind you). He just needs more.

(Oh, right, the reason Ripped is not a correct term is that it means something else entirely. That refers to dismantling a game's assets to record. Like putting it on a website. Borrowed is a far more accurate term in development. They can't rip assets they already have. Ripping assets from a non-Smash game is accurate in comparison. It's most the pointlessly negative concoction that comes with it, not really understanding why they borrow assets. That said, ripping may still actually be used as a term, but it does have a different meaning in conversation. People rip stuff to put on websites. They borrow assets to create a product. That's the key difference in how they work. "Ripping" also refers to ripping off something, which is clearly not what happens in development of their own franchise using their own assets they already have. To say the least, term gives a very misleading point to what's actually happening. I'm sure you meant it more as borrowing assets, but it's easy to see why the term is a lot more poor to use in this context.)

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

As far as another version of Ganondorf being named, given the prevalence of "Demon King" as a moniker for him in some games, utilizing either that or just a compromised designation like "Demon Ganondorf" if one like the TotK variation got in the next Smash might potentially work. It's not the smoothest of solutions, but it would at least make the nomenclature distinct from the 2001 version.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

As far as another version of Ganondorf being named, given the prevalence of "Demon King" as a moniker for him in some games, utilizing either that or just a compromised designation like "Demon Ganondorf" if one like the TotK variation got in the next Smash might potentially work. It's not the smoothest of solutions, but it would at least make the nomenclature distinct from the 2001 version.

You could always go with Canondorf.

 

[Laniv]

Today marks the 16th anniversary of Super Smash Bros. Brawl's release in North America.

 

[RileyXY1]

Today marks the 16th anniversary of Super Smash Bros. Brawl's release in North America.

And later this year is Smash 4's 10th anniversary. It feels weird saying that.