Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[NintenRob]

D

The very fact you can allow a "special case exception" shows it isn't at all an issue.

People actually made this sort of gatekeep with Starters back in the day funnily enough. Saying that a Starter could never be a solo fighter instead of being part of a Trainer lineup because "it wouldn't be fair to pick one of the Starters and not the others".
And then happened.

It's just honestly an arbitrary limitation to set up when the main thing that matters is "can this Pokémon appeal to Sakurai as a fighter on a conceptual level?".



They didn't go with alternatives on purpose.

Charizard X and Mewtwo Y happened to be the more significant ones between the two due to Origins and the Genesect movie.

Did you just cherry pick my post to try and start argument. I literally said in the post it ain't that different from choosing starters and really a non issue. It's purely a personal thing which I acknowledged. You're repeating things I already said

 

[Arcanir]

True, but they did go with alternative versions there, X got Charizard mega and Y got Mewtwos. I know now we have only Y but that's mostly just carry over. And it's ultimately just the final smash

I don't think version exclusives matter much in the scheme of things when even Pokemon will play favorites. Using the aforementioned Mega Charizard X for example, it is outright the golden child of the two as it got Origins, the Mega Evolution specials, a slew of advertising, and more appearances across all media such as the aforementioned Smash and Masters where its the main mon of Red, a major pair in the game and on the loading screen while Y is nowhere to be found. Y on the other hand... got on the cover art of Super Mystery Dungeon, which even then, X had more advertising for that game so even that bone had no meat to it. And that's not getting into things like Y's only anime appearance being it get beat down by X just to make the gulf in favoritism even more wide.

Ceruledge being picked over Amarouge would honestly be par the course. The difference in favoritism is not as stark as the Mega Zards, but it's still clear that Ceruledge is the runaway favorite as it's one of the most popular Pokemon of its generation, gets multiple appearances across media like the anime where it's a main character or Unite where it's a playable one, and pops up in advertising. If Sakurai liked it I don't think it being version exclusive would deter him, it's still a strong Pokemon to showcase its generation and one many fans love regardless of which one they picked.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The very fact you can allow a "special case exception" shows it isn't at all an issue.

To be fair, it technically isn't a special case exception since he was thinking more alternate costume reference for Jigglypuff than actually adding Scream Tail.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

D

Did you just cherry pick my post to try and start argument. I literally said in the post it ain't that different from choosing starters and really a non issue. It's purely a personal thing which I acknowledged. You're repeating things I already said

No, I'm pointing out that people literally did make this case about Starters and how it's all arbitrary in the face of the most important aspect of Pokémon selection.

Neither of which you at all said.

But go off cherrypicking me I guess.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

D

Did you just cherry pick my post to try and start argument. I literally said in the post it ain't that different from choosing starters and really a non issue. It's purely a personal thing which I acknowledged. You're repeating things I already said

He wasn't cherry picking. He was just using an example of the past to pick apart the logic. Not you.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Spoiler: Pokemon Analogy

People have constantly tried to use the Starters argument to apply it to any franchise. The context has been pointed out many times of how it's a very unique situation. Fire Emblem somewhat has come close to the same idea, but that's only cause some games have multiple protagonists. And even then, it clearly didn't work out the same way. Pokemon always has 3 core starters outside of very specific main series games(Let's Go Pikachu and Eevee, Pokemon Yellow), and they also are generally not treated as hard equals anyway, which makes any analogy start to fall apart. Especially when applied to mildly important character groups over the major player characters(and in this case, their key partners in the case of Pokemon. While that's always going to be a tad different to franchises due to essentially having two core characters at once by default in Pokemon anyway, the core point was always there. You have multiple core protagonists(some may be a bit more important than others, yes), but in the end, they're all so heavily important that it's harder to choose among or between them).

And that last bit is also notable that it's really only useful when discussing franchises that have multiple games with different protagonists. You then have stuff like ARMS who never had a core protagonist(outside of a cancelled Manga) and had two Mascots. Because the creator requested who the character was, all Sakurai had to do was figure out why Spring Man wasn't chosen(because anybody could be a protagonist in the story) to justify using Min Min. Simple as that. Something that doesn't apply to tons of franchises anyway.

And to go back to Pokemon, obviously many choices won't be of a Starter, but they all are generally important in some way. Either a star of a movie, or in some cases, a recurring enough character that it's practically treated like part of the main cast(but also, special situations too. Jigglypuff had a lot going for it, but without the clone factor, it was pretty unlikely to ever get in. Pichu is a tad bit more important, but pretty unlikely outside of that situation too). Nonetheless, a lot of the core point comes down to "not every franchise will work the same. The analogies aren't as apt as you think they are. Look at all context instead of treating them as identical situations, or extremely similar."

But you get the idea. It's kind of hard to explain it. It also doesn't help that Pokemon is the most special situation franchise we ever had. Fire Emblem somewhat comes close otherwise, but that's only due to two clones, and two Echoes(one went from a clone to an Echo officially), at best. The rest weren't really special in general(that is, the choices were still all about timing otherwise. Hell, that still applies to Roy and Lucina to a degree. Respectively, Chrom also had the nice addition of fan demand, but that only really worked out because of the Echo spot. Not that he couldn't have been a semi-clone at all, but considering the timing of the characters created, his chance for Ultimate worked best because he was easy to make. Otherwise, another Echo or nothing would've realistically happened).

 

[NintenRob]

He wasn't cherry picking. He was just using an example of the past to pick apart the logic. Not you.

He literally opened up with singling out my opinion on Scream Tail to say the thing I already said is a non issue is a non issue. That reads to me his whole post is about trying to counter what I said when there's nothing to counter. If he just wanted to rant about people opinions on starters from over ten years ago, fine, I'm sorry, but that's not how it reads, he opened up being antagonistic. The whole reason I brought up starters is because Smash proved it to be a non issue when when they added Greninja.

Because yes, I was there 10 years ago. I'm fully aware what people use to say. I remember having to deal with people who thought we weren't getting a Pokemon newcomer to begin with because gen 6 had no standout Pokemon, that we would just get the Brawl 4 + Mewtwo. It was infuriating and just made Greninja that more hype to me. But why bring it up if not to try to tear apart my opinion that I don't even have, when I'm aware of the starter which is why I mentioned starters to begin with.

"Realistically though, I guess it's not that different from choosing one starter over the others so it's probably a non issue."

This sentence from my post is all it should've taken give him no reason whatsoever to quote me.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Hmm I was kinda hoping I'd get some feedback on my newcmers picks...

2B - Okay.
Agumon - Meh...
Crono - Yeah!
Howard - Boo.
Ayumi - Boo.
Goemon - Yeah!
Reimu - Boo.
Shantae - Yeah!
Bomberman - Yeah!
Lip - Meh...
Morrigan - Yeah!
Ray Mk 3 - Meh...
Dixie - Okay.
Ashley - Meh...
Sans - Meh...
KOS-MOS - Boo.
Ring Fit - Boo.
Waluigi - Okay.
Geno - Yeah!
Tonkaton - Meh...
Travis - Okay.
Mio - Boo.
Lyn - Boo.

Ok this are my most wanted characters for the next smash.

Great list overall!

Hayabusa, Dante, Shadow, Estelle, Kiryu, Leon, Bomberman and Alucard? All great!

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

Honestly I kind of just hate speculating with Pokemon, not because they are bad choices or anything, but because it's near certain that we always get a new one each game but it's kinda just on the whims of who they want to promote and very exact timing. I guess I just sorta file it in my mind as "New Pokemon Rep" and stop thinking about it, with the hope that it will be one that works well in smash.

 

[Hypercat-Z]

Rate their chances to be in Smash as a fighter, Pokemon edition:
Eevee
Zoroark (Hisuian form)
Cinderace
Urshifu
Meowscarada
Tinkaton
Gholdengo
Ogerpon

Eevee 5%
Zoroark (Hisuian form) 90%
Cinderace 50%
Urshifu 80%
Meowscarada 99%
Tinkaton 30%
Gholdengo 30%
Ogerpon 20%

I have a top 10 newcomer list, ordered in no particular order:

1. Atari’s Centipede

Pft.... You serious?
Well, It might work as a boss, but as a fighter I think there are better picks from Atari, like them for example:

Right... They'd never give Sakurai permission to do something they already let Cadence of Hyrule and Hyrule Warriors(twice) do...

That thing that's already happened 3 times before is NOT going to happen!

That's a great wishlist!

Now this guy knows how to make a roster!


View attachment 395604

I find the last pick very interesting! Not the characters, you want such the vehicle!
I guess it makes sense, since it's in the title, and it could work as Bowser Jr. and the seven Koopalings.

 

[SharkLord]

Honestly I kind of just hate speculating with Pokemon, not because they are bad choices or anything, but because it's near certain that we always get a new one each game but it's kinda just on the whims of who they want to promote and very exact timing. I guess I just sorta file it in my mind as "New Pokemon Rep" and stop thinking about it, with the hope that it will be one that works well in smash.

Honestly yeah, that's just how Pokemon rep tends to be as of late. It's really just "starter from most recent game," when said game wasn't even out when the roster was settled. It's hard to gauge any of that until A: We know when the roster was set, and B: We know what the newest generation is, so until further notice we just know there's a designated New Pokemon slot

 

[MasterCheef]

5 Tabuu

4 Noah + ( Mio = echo )

3 Yumia ( Ryza = Alt ) = Atelier , via , Koei Tecmo

2 ( Ahri ) - League of Legends , via Riot Games

1 Master Chief ( Halo )

 

[Oracle Link]

So someone said they love stage rosters so i will make one:
(although the pictures might be off)

Spoiler: The Stages

Mario Stages:

Stage 1: Flower Kingdom

Stage 2: New Donk City Hall

Stage 3: NSMB2 Desert (has the coin gimmick from golden plains)

Stage 4: Bowsers Castle

Stage 5: Rainbow Road (3ds) uses the tour/8dx design

Mario spinoff Stages:

Stage 1: Jungle Japes

Stage 2: Frozen Dk Island

Stage 3: Yoshis Island

Stage 4: Wario Ware 2 (has new microgames but the same layout)

Stage 5: SS. Teacup

Zelda Stages:

Stage 1: Temple (gets some cameos placed throughout the stage)

Stage 2: Goron City

Stage 3: Ganons Tower Flooded

Stage 4: Sky Island

Stage 5: Koholint

Im also gonna do kirby and then i stop because god this takes long:

Kirby Stages:


Stage 1: Green Gardens (Works like Dreamland or green greens)

Stage 2: "Regular" Halberd (Gets redesigned too look like in planet robobot GAlaxy Included)

Stage 3: KKing Dededes Ring

Stage 4: Kracko Battle (its an invented stage based arround diffrent kracko battles taking the best bits from each)
Stage 5: Another dimension

How did you like these Stages I tried to remove a lot of the generic 1-1s and replace them with more fun alternatives!

If you want to vcontinue this list keep in mind 5 Stages per Nintendo series and 2 per third party!

 

[fogbadge]

the funny thing about version exclusive pokemon is that for gen 9 everyone keeps suggesting pokemon which have counterparts in the other game and in between pokemon in bother versions. so go with cyclyzar or charcadet

 

[RileyXY1]

I'm still saying that Quaquaval will be the one who ends up getting in.

 

[Shinuto]

I'm still saying that Quaquaval will be the one who ends up getting in.

But no one likes him.

 

[Opossum]

But no one likes him.

In fairness that's only because most people have terrible taste.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

In fairness that's only because most people have terrible taste.

In even more fairness, nobody liked Incineroar either.

 

[Perkilator]

The existence of Pro Rules in Super Mario Party Jamboree made me wonder; how would you handle a "Pro Rules" option for the next Smash game?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The existence of Pro Rules in Super Mario Party Jamboree made me wonder; how would you handle a "Pro Rules" option for the next Smash game?

I don't know what this does in Mario Party, but from the name alone this sounds like it would be an fixed ruleset For Glory style, and I have a feeling that whatever Sakurai would come up with for such a thing would be immediately ignored because it doesn't work very well. Given how freeform the customization is, I don't think it would make sense for Super Smash Bros. anyway.

What I'd propose instead is a tournament mode. You get to set the legal stages (only legal stages would appear on the stage select screen in this mode), their status as starter or counterpick, whether each stage has hazards on or off, and on the stage select screen, it gives you the ability to strike them before allowing a stage to be picked. Essentially, it just gives you more options for a more competitive focused experience.

Considering how wishy-washy they are to the idea of competitive play though I wouldn't hold my breath for such a feature.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

But no one likes him.

No one likes incineroar either

 

[Kirbeh]

So someone said they love stage rosters so i will make one:
(although the pictures might be off)

Mario Stages:

Stage 1: Flower Kingdom

Stage 2: New Donk City Hall

Stage 3: NSMB2 Desert (has the coin gimmick from golden plains)

Stage 4: Bowsers Castle

Stage 5: Rainbow Road (3ds) uses the tour/8dx design

Mario spinoff Stages:

Stage 1: Jungle Japes

Stage 2: Frozen Dk Island

Stage 3: Yoshis Island
View attachment 395640
Stage 4: Wario Ware 2 (has new microgames but the same layout)

Stage 5: SS. Teacup

Zelda Stages:

Stage 1: Temple (gets some cameos placed throughout the stage)

Stage 2: Goron City

Stage 3: Ganons Tower Flooded

Stage 4: Sky Island

Stage 5: Koholint

Im also gonna do kirby and then i stop because god this takes long:

Kirby Stages:


Stage 1: Green Gardens (Works like Dreamland or green greens)

Stage 2: "Regular" Halberd (Gets redesigned too look like in planet robobot GAlaxy Included)

Stage 3: KKing Dededes Ring

Stage 4: Kracko Battle (its an invented stage based arround diffrent kracko battles taking the best bits from each)
Stage 5: Another dimension

How did you like these Stages I tried to remove a lot of the generic 1-1s and replace them with more fun alternatives!

If you want to vcontinue this list keep in mind 5 Stages per Nintendo series and 2 per third party!

Use spoiler tags if you're going to post a bunch of images. Remember, some people are on mobile.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I find the last pick very interesting! Not the characters, you want such the vehicle!
I guess it makes sense, since it's in the title, and it could work as Bowser Jr. and the seven Koopalings.

Exactly. You make the SV-001 Metal Slug the Fighter, and Marco, Tarma, Eri or Fio is the driver depending on your color selection.

And as vehicles go, the Slug is tiny. So if you imagine the MS characters as being about Mario's size, the Slug would only be about KRool's size.

 

[Gorgonzales]

The existence of Pro Rules in Super Mario Party Jamboree made me wonder; how would you handle a "Pro Rules" option for the next Smash game?

We already have a "pro rules" option. It's called setting stocks to 3, time to 8 minutes, and items to off.

Beyond that, what SMAAASH Puppy suggested (selecting from a hand-crafted pool of legal starter and counterpick stages) would be the closest thing to a "competitive mode" I could see Smash getting, but there's no way in hell that's going to happen with how averse Nintendo is to the competitive scene. They want to flex the amount of stages on that select screen, they aren't going to give you the option of only looking at a handful.

Mario Party's pro rules are a half-step at best, anyhow. There isn't much customization for rulesets, you just get the one and you'd better hope you can tolerate it.

 

[DarthEnderX]

They want to flex the amount of stages on that select screen, they aren't going to give you the option of only looking at a handful.

Isn't that exactly what giving every stage an Omega and Battlefield version is?

 

[Gorgonzales]

Isn't that exactly what giving every stage an Omega and Battlefield version is?

Omega and Battlefield versions still make use of all those slots on the stage select screen.

 

[Hypercat-Z]

The existence of Pro Rules in Super Mario Party Jamboree made me wonder; how would you handle a "Pro Rules" option for the next Smash game?

Wait wait wait! Hold on a second!
There are pro rules in a PARTY GAME? Seriously?

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Wait wait wait! Hold on a second!
There are pro rules in a PARTY GAME? Seriously?

It's designed for people who want a more skill-based game of Mario Party, since it eliminates some RNG by having the players vote for minigames between turns (which it then chooses between like how Mario Kart does for online races), and makes it so some things like Bowser Spaces only have one outcome instead of the wheel to choose from.

Personally I think if you're playing Mario Party in the first place, luck is just something you should learn to deal with and pro rules are a weird decision to include, but cool for the people that like them I guess lol

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

While I'm sure it has its appeal a mode based around in game skill and not the possibility of the Random Number God unfairly screwing you or your fellow players over right when victory seemed close?

Kind of feels like it violates the spirit of Mario Party a bit.

 

[Hypercat-Z]

Exactly. You make the SV-001 Metal Slug the Fighter, and Marco, Tarma, Eri or Fio is the driver depending on your color selection.

And as vehicles go, the Slug is tiny. So if you imagine the MS characters as being about Mario's size, the Slug would only be about KRool's size.

View attachment 395641

Yeah! I can imagine the pros and cons of that:
Pros.: Heavy and hard to sweep away, very resistant to damage, long range and powerful shots.
Cons.: Big target, slow as King Dedede, Less jumping than Little Mac, recovery pratically inexistant.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

While I'm sure it has its appeal a mode based around in game skill and not the possibility of the Random Number God unfairly screwing you or your fellow players over right when victory seemed close?

Kind of feels like it violates the spirit of Mario Party a bit.

It's especially funny to me because like you still roll random dice every turn and Pro Rules basically just makes it so you can decide the minigame and I believe makes it so that Bowser always steals a Star, so RNG can still screw you over if you roll poorly and land on Bowser, you just know exactly what Bowser's gonna steal from you lmao

It also has a really weird set-in-stone 12 turn limit, I think Bonus Stars are announced at the start of the game, and shops only have so many items making them first-come, first-serve I think?

 

[Hypercat-Z]

Personally I think if you're playing Mario Party in the first place, luck is just something you should learn to deal with and pro rules are a weird decision to include, but cool for the people that like them I guess lol

I always thought the same about Super Smash Bros.
The reason for why some characters are pretty unbalanced (very strong on one side and very weak on another) is the game was never constructed around the competive players and the items were introduced to compensate the weakness and perks of the characters, preventing the most expert players to exploit them AF.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I always thought the same about Super Smash Bros.
The reason for why some characters are pretty unbalanced (very strong on one side and very weak on another) is the game was never constructed around the competive players and the items were introduced to compensate the weakness and perks of the characters, preventing the most expert players to exploit them AF.

I mean I think Smash is a bit of a different beast because at the end of the day it's still a fighting game and needs some semblance of balance? Which is why we get balance patches.

Mario Party is just a full on RNG-fest party game and realistically unless they unironically add it to the Nintendo Versus lineup for occasional self-hosted tournaments or something, I don't know why you'd need to include Pro Rules. It's not like the past games didn't allow some level of strategy, you just always had to plan things out with an asterisk attached that it might not go how you want it to for any number of silly reasons lol

 

[Guynamednelson]

items were introduced to compensate the weakness and perks of the characters

It was to compensate between the players' skill gap, not the characters'.

That said if competitive matches had items on there'd still be a skill gap based on who has the best knowledge of what each item does.

 

[cashregister9]

Just saying, every single bit of smash speculation I've been a part of, the grass starter was always considered a shoe-in and were the obvious choice (except for a bit towards the end of ult speculation where everyone was convinced Cinderace was a shoe-in)

we still have not gotten a grass starter outside of Venusaur

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Just saying, every single bit of smash speculation I've been a part of, the grass starter was always considered a shoe-in and were the obvious choice (except for a bit towards the end of ult speculation where everyone was convinced Cinderace was a shoe-in)

we still have not gotten a grass starter outside of Venusaur

I think Meowscarada could have a fun moveset if they go all in on its magician theming, and I feel like it has a really good shot because Liko has Floragato in the anime right now, I just like Ogerpon more as a Grass type since I have no real attachment to Meowscarada as a Skeledirge user in my story team, plus our last Pokemon newcomer was also a Dark-type cat Pokemon.

I also just feel like Ogerpon represents the regional gimmick, Terastallization, better since she has a unique Tera form you could use for a Final Smash instead of Meowscarada just gaining a big flower on its head and firing a green beam of Terastal energy.

 

[Noipoi]

Just saying, every single bit of smash speculation I've been a part of, the grass starter was always considered a shoe-in and were the obvious choice (except for a bit towards the end of ult speculation where everyone was convinced Cinderace was a shoe-in)

we still have not gotten a grass starter outside of Venusaur

Sakurai refuses to touch grass

 

[MBRedboy31]

That said if competitive matches had items on there'd still be a skill gap based on who has the best knowledge of what each item does.

Reminds me of the Brawl tournament at EVO 2008 that had items on for some reason, where one of the best Smash players of all time lost to a random guy who played casual Smash a lot and was thus really good at items.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Just saying, every single bit of smash speculation I've been a part of, the grass starter was always considered a shoe-in and were the obvious choice (except for a bit towards the end of ult speculation where everyone was convinced Cinderace was a shoe-in)

we still have not gotten a grass starter outside of Venusaur

That doesn't really matter given that the reasons for choosing the other starters over the grass one aren't related to type. I think the same is true for speculation on Meowscarada. The logic is more about starters being obligatory, and Meowscarada's stage magician motif allowing for interesting abilities, especially when combined with the grass themeing.

That's not to say they couldn't go with Quaquaval instead, as a being a dancer could similarly spark Sakurai's imagination, but it's not as popular so people aren't as into the idea. Skeledirge's body type just kinda doesn't lend itself to a fighting game very well, though I'd like to believe its still possible.

With more people considering other Pokémon from Pokémon Scarlet/Violet, I do wonder if Meowscarada will be dethroned as the popular pick.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Sakurai refuses to touch grass

That's probably unironically true. He works too much for any grass-touchery.

Reminds me of the Brawl tournament at EVO 2008 that had items on for some reason, where one of the best Smash players of all time lost to a random guy who played casual Smash a lot and was thus really good at items.

Exactly what I was thinking about.