Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[MeteoRain]

Well no, the problem comes from the label of retro and ascribing their inclusion to a specific era. Too much significance is being paid to being successful during a certain era while not enough to the fact these characters remained prosperous while gaining fans for like twenty-five to thirty years after that.

If a character is popular for thirty years, at any point along that timeframe people are jumping in. If someone became a fan of Mega Man in 2005, when he was still very active, it doesn't mean they care about or even played Contra. At that point in time, it would've been likelier they were also a fan of Halo or GTA or something. Meanwhile, in 2005, you have far fewer people becoming fans of a now pretty low-key series like Contra.

And keep in mind 2005 was the year of the poll that got Mega Man included. Dude was getting multiple games a year; it wasn't "the retro crowd" who got him in, it was a fanbase that spanned four gens of active releases.

Because most of these "retro" series are just successful series that began during the retro era. But so are, like, Mario, Zelda and Metroid. If you're a Zelda fan, but you started on the 64, that doesn't mean you would inherently care about, like, Ghosts n Goblins.

It's the additional eras, with the games therein, which gave series like Mega Man, Castlevania, Ninja Gaiden, etc. the requisite, higher volume of support to elevate them to the point where inclusion was feasible. It's existing across enough gens successfully that they have both an audience size and an audience still active enough that can push for them. If it was just being retro, we'd have gotten a third-party who fell off after that era yet still retained enough demand to be included. Other than maybe Pac-Man, depending on how you see his post-retro catalogue, there aren't any.

That's why it won't be Rizer after Hayabusa. He's not going to have enough popularity to offset the state of his series, because demand isn't based on some fixed year. The people who want Hayabusa aren't just those who played Ninja Gaiden in 1989, it's everyone who came to his series in the last thirty-something years, including when it was pretty popular but very different in the 00s, who might have a completely unrelated catalogue of games they care about than what released in his proximity fifteen years before they even played the series.

That's the distinction between a series popular across decades versus one that faded after the retro era, and separates the Hayabusas from the Rizers.

As a fan of the Zelda series since the N64, I sure would love Ghosts n Goblins getting a spot on the roster

Edit: smh, autocorrect you failed me

 

[chocolatejr9]

Midna and Elma safe?

I'm starting to think people don't actually know what that word means.

remembers Ultimate newcomer debates

To be honest, you're probably right.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Also why not Heavy?

because it's easier to come up with an up-B for the class that has a jetpackactually it's because the Pyro is Swamp's favorite.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'm going to be completely honest.

I have no clue how people think that list is safe when it has Zael from The Last Story and the mother****ing Pyro from TF2. Like for the love of.. I'm like the only one on this site that brings of Koraidon as a Gen 9 Pokemon. It's not Meowscarada, Tinkaton or even Gholdengo. They at least get brought up.

The list doesn't have to appeal to you or make sense. It's just a most wanted list. There are some picks that will never ever happen.

But calling that list safe is starting to really bug me because it blatantly isn't.

 

[cashregister9]

The signature posting has made me update my big list

If you want to do a roster building thing out of it, choose one from each column like last time, or just your top 36 or something like that

I also made a few more wishlists too

Spoiler

"characters I'd be fine with being echoes but obviously they would be much better if they were unique, I mostly just want to spark a bit of discussion or something"

Most wanted Stages

Most wanted Bosses

Most wanted Items

 

[Ivander]

Might as well, but just to mention. This isn't a roster. These are just my Top 20 Most Wanted for bias reasons, whether because I really liked their games/series and/or the character themselves.

And by the way, I did condense the names, but saving the image still messed with the text.

 

[SPEN18]

I think popularity has a big role in keeping Falco around, honestly. Star Fox might be a dormant franchise and Nintendo doesn't do much to support Melee's competitive scene, but Falco's popularity kept going and I think that's enough incentive for Sakurai to want to keep him around. For what it's worth, Roy and Lucas both came back as DLC because of being vocally requested to come back; Even if Falco did get cut in the base game, I'd imagine there would be enough outcry to justify him being DLC later on

Well, we don't have numbers for his in-Smash popularity, but my sense is that it has declined since its height in Melee in Brawl.
Regardless, as you say, a lot of these other semiclone types like Roy or Lucas I think most would consider as popular or more. So it's not demonstrably enough to separate him significantly from those other candidates I've been comparing him to.
Remember it's not merely about whether there's an incentive to bring him back, it's how that incentive compares to others.

As for getting added as DLC if they miss the base roster, it depends on who else gets cut. In Smash 4 there really wasn't much competition among cut veterans who didn't have technical issues and who weren't Snake. It's pretty likely the competition will be a lot higher this time around, so we'll just have to see what the base roster is. Tbh if there's a solid chunk of unique fighters who don't make the base roster, it's probably not going to sit quite right to have a parade of semiclones take the DLC spots while keeping the former group out. Although some clone characters could luck out from them attempting to squeeze them into base; maybe they do not quite make it but still have enough done to be easily flipped to DLC.

 

[NintenRob]

I got a new sig!

Whatcha think?

For the sake of Smash related discussion...

This is your new newcomer lineup in a new Smash game. How do you react?

I'd be super down for this lineup. You got my big wants there, a number of simply hype choices and a few crowd pleases. I'm not sure it's particularly realistic but it's probably my ideal line-up, well close to it anyway. Only thing I might change is make room for Xenoblade 3.


Also I'm disturbed with King Boo's tongue.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Man, I'm trying to create a 20-character wanted list and I'm being reminded why I usually stick to a small handful, thinking of these 20 characters I want even with no holds barred is really difficult lmao

Maybe I just don't play a big enough variety of games lol

 

[DarthEnderX]

I wasn't accidentally gaslighting people into thinking Adol would be the primary Falcom pick? Kondo had my back the entire time??

maybe there is a god after all

A dark eldrich god that has dragged us into the darkest timeline.

Do you think it's a possibility Smash gets the Mario Kart 8 treatment for the next console and simply re-releases alongside a new batch of characters, stages (including the few missing ones) and maybe a sequel to World of Light?

Anything's possible!

I recently downloaded the 48 tracks they added in Mario Kart and I'm like, this is awesome, do we really need Mario Kart 9?

Hell yeah! **** MK9. Give me Booster Course Pass 2!

Give me 'Everycourse is Here!'

This is your new newcomer lineup in a new Smash game. How do you react?

Suffering from a severe Hayabusa deficiency. And lacking in 3P.

Since we’re sharing rosters again, I’ll post the one I made a few months ago.

'busa AND Rizer?! Two gold stars!

My only problem with E.M.M.I. is that its name is really annoying to type out on a phone lol.

I mean, you don't have to type the periods. If you say EMMI, we know who you're talking about.

Are there any games you love a lot but prefer characters over the main character?

Nightmare > Mitsurugi/Siegfied
Nakoruru > Haohmaru
Diablo > The PCs

I think the rebalancing of series is totally fine, but there's a notable lack of newcomers. A couple rows don't even have a single new character.

Yeah, only 2 new franchises is disappointing...

But one of them is Ninja Gaiden, so I have no choice but to Like!

what's the program you and others have been using?

Smash Bros. Roster Maker

Create your ideal roster for Super Smash Bros. in the browser!

benshoeman.github.io

As a fan of the Zelda series since the N64, I sure would love Ghosts n Goblins getting a spot on the roater

 

[HyperSomari64]

Instead of Neptune (the Main Protagonist) or Blanc (personification of Nintendo), imagine Idea Factory let Nintendo choose almost anyone from Hyper-Dimension Neptunia besides these two.
Let them pick whatever they want, no matter how good or bad, logical or not, their selection would be.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Man, I'm trying to create a 20-character wanted list and I'm being reminded why I usually stick to a small handful, thinking of these 20 characters I want even with no holds barred is really difficult lmao

Nah, it's super easy.

Check it, here's an easy Top 30:

1. Ryu Hayabusa [Ninja Gaiden]
2. Bill Rizer/Lance Bean [Contra]
3. Arthur [Ghosts ‘n Goblins]
4. Kunio/Riki [River City]
5. SV-001 Metal Slug [Metal Slug]
6. Bub/Bob [Bubble Bobble]
7. Jill Valentine [Resident Evil]
8. Morrigan [Darkstalkers]
9. Nightmare [Soulcalibur]
10. Kazuma Kiryu [Like a Dragon]
11. Nakoruru [Samurai Shodown]
12. Dante [Devil May Cry]
13. Phoenix Wright [Ace Attorney]
14. Viewtiful Joe [Viewtiful Joe]
15. Amaterasu [Okami]
16. Mike Haggar [Final Fight]
17. Strider Hiryu [Strider]
18. Goemon/Ebisumaru [Legend of the Mystical Ninja]
19. Crono [Chrono Trigger]
20. Nathan Spencer [Bionic Commando]
21. Rash/Zitz [Battletoads]
22. Bomberman [Bomberman]
23. Estelle Bright [Legend of Heroes]
24. Captain Toad/Toadette [Treasure Tracker]
25. King Hippo [Punch-Out]
26. Firebrand [Gargoyle’s Quest]
27. Zero [Mega Man X]
28. Alucard [Castlevania]
29. Raiden [Metal Gear]
30. Mii Mage

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Man, I'm trying to create a 20-character wanted list and I'm being reminded why I usually stick to a small handful, thinking of these 20 characters I want even with no holds barred is really difficult lmao

Maybe I just don't play a big enough variety of games lol

Some of the newcomers I decided on weren't necessarily from games I played, but were simply characters I discovered and thought would be unique or fun.

 

[BritishGuy54]

Rosters again? I don’t think I shared my most recent attempt here after some feedback and recent events.

 

[MasterCheef]

Feels more like a step backwards than anything

What do you think of this for Zelda's new Move-set ?

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

 

[PersonAngelo53]

Ay yo hold the phone?

I wasn't accidentally gaslighting people into thinking Adol would be the primary Falcom pick? Kondo had my back the entire time??

View attachment 395546
maybe there is a god after all

I would personally prefer a Trails character like Estelle or Rean but well I guess I take it. I just hope he brings a ton of music from the Trails series at least.

 

[Perkilator]

Thoughts on Delzethin’s latest video?

 

[fogbadge]

Paper Mario, Midna, that SV legendary, Tails and Elma? Huge Pass. Safe and Uninteresting

Some of these can be trimmed.

Also why not Heavy?

rather harsh don’t you think?

 

[Nabbitfan730]

I'm going to be completely honest.

I have no clue how people think that list is safe when it has Zael from The Last Story and the mother****ing Pyro from TF2. Like for the love of.. I'm like the only one on this site that brings of Koraidon as a Gen 9 Pokemon. It's not Meowscarada, Tinkaton or even Gholdengo. They at least get brought up.

The list doesn't have to appeal to you or make sense. It's just a most wanted list. There are some picks that will never ever happen.

But calling that list safe is starting to really bug me because it blatantly isn't.

Alright. I'll use Boring instead. Unexciting to me personally.

You happy now? Steam cooled off yet?

Paper Mario, Tails, Bandana Dee, Midna etc aren't safe picks? When i meant safe, i meant in terms of inclusions. They wouldn't hard to include and they are uninteresting comparatively to their peers in terms of choices

 

[fogbadge]

Alright. I'll use Boring instead. Unexciting to me personally.

You happy now? Steam cooled off yet?

well you can’t deny you could have worded it better

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Feels more like a step backwards than anything

What do you think of this for Zelda's new Move-set ?

I didn't watch it, but I think dumping her current moveset in favor of centering her design on The Legend of Zelda: Echoes of Wisdom is a mistake in general.

 

[Perkilator]

Given the time frame of Sakurai’s project starting production; assuming it is a new Smash game, I think the likely scenario is that Zelda will get at least a new design based on Tears of the Kingdom, with a tiny homage to Echoes of Wisdom in her moveset.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I didn't watch it, but I think dumping her current moveset in favor of centering her design on The Legend of Zelda: Echoes of Wisdom is a mistake in general.

Agreed. EoW is...not a good inspiration for a fighting game.

Now, you CAN make a fighting game moveset out of a character with no suitable fighting moves. But Zelda is not one of those characters. She has no fighting game moves in EoW, but she has fighting moves in other games.

 

[Garteam]

Thoughts on Delzethin’s latest video?

I'm normally a pretty big fan of Delzethin's takes, but I didn't gel with this video.

At best, there wasn't much here that hasn't already been said before. Sonic, Kazuya, G&W, R.O.B, and Steve being overpowered to the detriment of the game isn't a new or interesting take unless you provide a unique or clever way they could be improved.

At worst, this video felt like an unconvincing argument for why the next Smash should be a reboot. Zelda's moveset isn't great, but shoving a bunch of gratuitous references to recent games isn't going to solve things. Donkey Kong and Ganondorf need an overhaul of one or two special moves, not a full reformation of some of the most popular characters in the game.

Samus and Sonic were really the only characters I agreed with significantly changing. Even then, Samus doesn't require a ton because the general skeleton of her moveset is still strong beyond being a bit stiff.

 

[chinkuru]

My top 25 most wanted characters

 

[Will]

My top 25 most wanted characters
View attachment 395586

Tommy Vercetti specifically is a wild pick

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Thoughts on Delzethin’s latest video?

Spoiler: Good Idea, Bad Excecution

Nothing we haven't said before.
Nothing we haven't said before.
Oh hey, it's DarthEnderX's take. I don't entirely disagree, but I think a lot of the problem stems from how Command Selection was handled, forcing you to take your eyes off of the action in order to use it, which can make a lot of the spells not nearly as useful as they could be.
This is an interesting take, but I don't think I agree. Sephiroth's problem is more that his attacks are awkward to hit anything (especially the smols) with rather than his sweetspot placement. Said sweetspot placement is entirely consistent, being on the tip for stabs and in the middle for slashes. One Wing could be communicated better though, that makes sense to me.
I agree with the assessments here, though I don't think Banjo & Kazooie need to be redesigned entirely, just retooled a bit to lower their skill floor. To be fair, that's probably why they're an honorable mention.

Spoiler: Good Start, but Didn't Evolve with the Character

Nothing we haven't said before, and while I agree, it's difficult to figure which direction to take her in, and he doesn't provide any ideas. Personally, I kinda hate everything that fans come up with since it has weird mechanics like "down special just opens and closes the missile attatchment" or make her rely on taunt to swap moves around mid match.
Nothing we haven't said before, and it's a take I personally disagree with, at least partially. I do agree he needs a little pizzazz, but not an actual overhaul. I also think his characterization is what drags him down way more than his move set, and I'm not just talking about the voice (though it doesn't help).
Ya know, it might actually be a good idea to give Kirby a projectile special move. If he is to be as slow as he is, it could benefit his neutral quite well. Like with DK, I'm not on team overhaul with Kirby, but that idea I can get behind.
Nothing that hasn't been said before, though I'm a part of the seemingly growing group of people who don't think he should be changed that much. Really we just need to either get rid of, or alter Warlock Punch and Dark Dive, and give him the projectile he deserves. Also, and anti-projectile tool would be a good idea.
I don't disagree here. It's a pretty lukewarm take honestly. Giving her some references to the new games is fine, just don't overhaul her moveset with them.

Spoiler: Toxic Designs

Nothing we haven't said before. I personally don't vibe with his design for other reasons, but I don't disagree.
Nothing we haven't said before, interestingly without a call for scrapping the whole thing. I don't think there's a version of an ARMS moveset that people will like to fight, but I do think she could use some rebalancing.
I finally get why people hate the intangibility on his attacks. Beyond that, it's just the obvious "needs rebalancing".
Hey look, it's someone who doesn't think he needs to be scrapped and redone! I'm not sure how prevelant that idea is here, but it feels way too common to me elsewhere.
Nothing I haven't heard before, and while I don't think they're that problematic, that's probably why they're honorable mentions.

Spoiler: Sonic

Nothing we haven't said before.

I'm surprised Olimar isn't on the list. To a certain extent Mega Man as well, but I think that's one part characterization being his biggest problem, and one part him being fairly unremarkable in competitive play.

 

[Guynamednelson]

or make her rely on taunt to swap moves around mid match.

I know exactly what you're referring to.

And I'd like to argue that at the same time, when you're not in ice mode, PM Samus applies minimal changes to her kit, and yet it's still enough to make her feel a lot more like you're playing Samus. Making the dash attack resemble the Shinespark more, giving her the ability to crawl with the crawl animation involving her morph ball and giving her a crawl attack involving it as well, and that's pretty much it.

 

[fogbadge]

My top 25 most wanted characters
View attachment 395586

who's that next to conker and crono? also between crash and arthur?

 

[chinkuru]

 

[Kirbeh]

It's amazing seeing how much work KB puts into these animations and how much he's improved over the years.

And even though it's not an actual mod, some of the gameplay concepts seem like they could be interesting.

Getting turned into an immobile Deku Scrub probably wouldn't be the greatest balance wise but I love the idea of Darkstalkers-esque transformation status effects.

 

[chinkuru]

who's that next to conker and crono? also between crash and arthur?

Lara

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Getting turned into an immobile Deku Scrub probably wouldn't be the greatest balance wise but I love the idea of Darkstalkers-esque transformation status effects.

I think if they were to go for this idea, the best way to go about it would be to transform them into Deku Link with that character's abilities, but with the kirby hat of the character under this effect. In this form, they'd have a Smash 64 moveset in that they'd have less attack moves, and on top of that, they wouldn't be designed with a gameplan in mind other than getting away from danger, and maybe mixing up opponents by holding forward when they least expect it. So you'd have something like:

• Five air jumps.
• Three ground normals that don't do much other than push opponents away.
• Three air normals that generally don't do much, but have some niche applications that players can try to go for.
• Three run-of-the-mill smash attacks.
• A grab with throws that just get opponents away from you.
• And three special moves, including:
  • A projectile attack.
  • A Peach Parasol style recovery.
  • And a very slow down special that doesn't work in the air, but gives you a Deku Nut.

For obvious reasons, the move that transforms you would be difficult to land, but something like this could create an interesting dynamic where you're now very clearly underpowered, but have some sauce that can give you a fighting chance until the transformation is over. Skull Kid would probably also have to be good at chasing down opponents though since 5 jumps + Peach Parasol does sound like the opponent can stall off stage quite easily with this, and that shouldn't be without risk.

 

[fogbadge]

Lara

you put the same character in twice?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

you put the same character in twice?

Talking about the girl betwixt Conker and Bub & Bob? They do look similar but she's definitely not Lara. I don't think Lara wears makeup like that in any of her appearances. If I were to hazard a guess I'd say she's from Dead or Alive, but I don't know for sure.

 

[MasterCheef]

Agreed. EoW is...not a good inspiration for a fighting game.

Now, you CAN make a fighting game moveset out of a character with no suitable fighting moves. But Zelda is not one of those characters. She has no fighting game moves in EoW, but she has fighting moves in other games.

Zelda is NOT a combat focused fighter. Pay attention to the original designer's intentions. in order to turn Zelda into a more direct combat focused fighter Sakurai would have to get approval from ; Aonuma & Miyamoto , & that is NOT going to happen.

Ask the Developer Vol. 13, The Legend of Zelda: Echoes of Wisdom — Part 4 - News - Nintendo Official Site

This article has been translated from the original Japanese content. Some of the images and videos shown in text were created during development. In this thirteenth volume of Ask the Developer, an interview series in which Nintendo developers convey…

www.nintendo.com

 

[Jerry98]

First comment in years here. I don't really follow this part of the community, but I must say I'm genuinely impressed! This guy made an incredible job!

 

[Opossum]

Zelda is NOT a combat focused fighter. Pay attention to the original designer's intentions. in order to turn Zelda into a more direct combat focused fighter Sakurai would have to get approval from ; Aonuma & Miyamoto , & that is NOT going to happen.

Ask the Developer Vol. 13, The Legend of Zelda: Echoes of Wisdom — Part 4 - News - Nintendo Official Site

This article has been translated from the original Japanese content. Some of the images and videos shown in text were created during development. In this thirteenth volume of Ask the Developer, an interview series in which Nintendo developers convey…

www.nintendo.com

Yeah, it's not like Cadence of Hyrule and Hyrule Warriors managed to do just that. That definitely didn't happen. Not to mention every Smash game from Melee onwards. None of those games exist.


Come on now.

 

[fogbadge]

Talking about the girl betwixt Conker and Bub & Bob? They do look similar but she's definitely not Lara. I don't think Lara wears makeup like that in any of her appearances. If I were to hazard a guess I'd say she's from Dead or Alive, but I don't know for sure.

I didn’t think it was the same character either but it did seem like Lara might have been the answer to both questions

 

[HyperSomari64]

Talking about the girl betwixt Conker and Bub & Bob? They do look similar but she's definitely not Lara. I don't think Lara wears makeup like that in any of her appearances. If I were to hazard a guess I'd say she's from Dead or Alive, but I don't know for sure.

I guess that's Joanna Dark from Perfect Dark??? lmao