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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

osby

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Why do you think Punch Out!! has so little content?

It's got a character and a nice stage, sure. It's even got the entire Wii cast as spirits. But it has no AT, only five music tracks and not a single new remix in Ultimate.

It just seems kind of ignored.
For the AT, maybe they thought any new one would be similar to Little Mac. idk

Can't comment on the music but afaik, composers chose which tracks to remix themselves so it seems just bad luck to me.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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Can't comment on the music but afaik, composers chose which tracks to remix themselves so it seems just bad luck to me.
I remember this being a thing too. It's why we have so gosh darn many Mega Man remixes. lol

Conversely, I wonder if this is why Xenoblade Chronicles doesn't get very many; I'd be intimidated to remix them as well.
 

Wonder Smash

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Why do you think Punch Out!! has so little content?

It's got a character and a nice stage, sure. It's even got the entire Wii cast as spirits. But it has no AT, only five music tracks and not a single new remix in Ultimate.

It just seems kind of ignored.
I don't know but it really does kind of irks me. I would have loved to see more tracks from the Wii game and maybe some tracks from SNES game.

Also, speaking of music, I'm so frustrated that another Youtube channel got a copyright strike by Nintendo. They had nearly all the Smash Ultimate themes and now they're all gone. I'm very upset!
 
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HyperSomari64

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Why do you think Punch Out!! has so little content?

It's got a character and a nice stage, sure. It's even got the entire Wii cast as spirits. But it has no AT, only five music tracks and not a single new remix in Ultimate.

It just seems kind of ignored.
Bring back the Little Mac assist trophy :4pacman:
 

Arcanir

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For the AT, maybe they thought any new one would be similar to Little Mac. idk

Can't comment on the music but afaik, composers chose which tracks to remix themselves so it seems just bad luck to me.
Double checked and yep, he even mentions that it did end up with some overlap due to the composers being able to pick.

After signing NDAs and explaining the project, I immediately had the composers pick what music they would arrange. I prepared a database of thousands of songs, so when one of them asked: “Can I hear that one?” I would simply play it for them right there and then have them decide who would arrange what song. Some people decided immediately. Some people couldn’t decide and took it home with them. Others mentioned their favorite series. Each composer was unique.

Since I prioritized the composers’ requests, there was a little bit of imbalance and overlapping, but I thought it was best to have them arrange music that they liked. This time, the Castlevania and Mega Man series were both very popular, so there are a lot of new arrangements. Fire Emblem also received a surprisingly large number of tracks thanks to one person in particular.
Definitely a double-edged sword case as you get a lot of tracks with a lot of passion to them since they're free to pick what they want, but it does leave certain series with a bulk of remixes and others with little. It's also probably why we have infamous cases like the multitude Jungle Japes remixes.

I do wonder how licensing works for the music since in some cases they do lack even the original tracks, such as Dark Samus' theme.
 

Gorgonzales

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Why do you think Punch Out!! has so little content?

It's got a character and a nice stage, sure. It's even got the entire Wii cast as spirits. But it has no AT, only five music tracks and not a single new remix in Ultimate.

It just seems kind of ignored.
It's a smaller series. If it had an AT and a little more music, it'd be perfect.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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I do wonder how licensing works for the music since in some cases they do lack even the original tracks, such as Dark Samus' theme.
IIRC they have a music guy who picks which tracks would be best to pull for the game. Given Sakurai's comments on The Roost in SSB4, I imagine the track selection is mainly influenced by "does the tone fit?", which can cause some oddities like Dark Samus not having her theme.

In Dark Samus's case, I could see them having passed on it because it's more moody than anything else in terms of tone. Good for feeling sinister, but it lacks the more energetic rhythms that they seem to tend to look for.
 

Gorgonzales

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So what if Special Episode Sakurai was talking about is him announcing the next Switch Successor and/or the next smash

Wouldn't that be wacky!? hahaahahahahaahahaahaahahahahaaha
"Now, before we conclude this video series, I'd like to announce the name of my new project!
The new project is part of a legacy, world-famous series...
The obvious game to make...
A name you all know. It starts with an S!...
Please welcome our new project... STAR FOX 64 HD!!"

1727888213823.png
 

PeridotGX

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For the AT, maybe they thought any new one would be similar to Little Mac. idk

Can't comment on the music but afaik, composers chose which tracks to remix themselves so it seems just bad luck to me.
It's unfortunate, but it kinda makes sense that none of the composers were interested in Punch Out. The series isn't very popular in Japan, and if I'm not mistaken all of the base game remixes were done by Japanese people. We ended up getting Grant Kirkhope and Toby Fox in the DLC, but they only did one song each (and for their own series). If the next game has more Western composers, I think the odds of more Punch-Out music go way up
 

Guynamednelson

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For the AT, maybe they thought any new one would be similar to Little Mac. idk
I don't think it's impossible to make one that doesn't feel like a clone of Mac's. King Hippo for example could roam around the stage slowly and automatically block most attacks like he does in Punch-Out itself, except when he opens his mouth while readying an attack, in which hitting him in the head will stun him and then you can hit him 8 times in his belly to KO him.

But if you fail to do that, he punches you with the strength of a Warlock Punch.
 
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Nabbitfan730

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"Now, before we conclude this video series, I'd like to announce the name of my new project!
The new project is part of a legacy, world-famous series...
The obvious game to make...
A name you all know. It starts with an S!...
Please welcome our new project... STAR FOX 64 HD!!"

View attachment 394843
It's good that you brought this up because if any game Sakurai should direct that isn't Smash, it honestly should be the next Star Fox.

He already has good experiences on rail-shooters, he is definitely the one who a new experience to the series
 

Arcanir

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IIRC they have a music guy who picks which tracks would be best to pull for the game. Given Sakurai's comments on The Roost in SSB4, I imagine the track selection is mainly influenced by "does the tone fit?", which can cause some oddities like Dark Samus not having her theme.

In Dark Samus's case, I could see them having passed on it because it's more moody than anything else in terms of tone. Good for feeling sinister, but it lacks the more energetic rhythms that they seem to tend to look for.
Potentially yes, but there are cases where even tracks that would fit what they're looking for seem to be absent, or whole games are skipped over entirely. Sticking to Metroid for a minute, the Prime subseries has a good variety of tracks, but offhand it only has three from the original (one remix), one from Prime 2, one from Hunter's, one from FF, and none from Prime 3. For a subseries as important as Prime (and even has a stage) it's a little odd how few tracks have made it over to Smash and it does ask the question if there's more to the situation.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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It's time.
I am now obligated to mention Retromesh's Super Smash Bros. DS concept series. It's super cool.

He just released a video showing off pallet swap ideas for Mario.

Just a quick thing to clarify he’s already been working on something else for well over a year now.

All of these videos have been pre-recorded, he mentioned this on his Twitter awhile ago.
This recent post does say he's still actively working on a finale video, though it's not specific so who knows how that works.
 

Hypercat-Z

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Why do you think Punch Out!! has so little content?

It's got a character and a nice stage, sure. It's even got the entire Wii cast as spirits. But it has no AT, only five music tracks and not a single new remix in Ultimate.

It just seems kind of ignored.
It has not many exploitable characters.
Except maybe for this guy:
79rg4yq8az4c1.jpg
The weirdest character of Punch Out after Little Mac himself.
 

NintenZ

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This recent post does say he's still actively working on a finale video, though it's not specific so who knows how that works.
It could be editing or supervision, tbh yeah it’s hard to say how this works.

But yes, he has been working on another project for awhile now.
 

FazDude

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Why do you think Punch Out!! has so little content?

It's got a character and a nice stage, sure. It's even got the entire Wii cast as spirits. But it has no AT, only five music tracks and not a single new remix in Ultimate.

It just seems kind of ignored.
I'd gladly take someone like Mr. Sandman or Aran Ryan as a second rep, if not a boss for the former. Heck, just throw Glass Joe over Mac's Brawl AT if you don't have time for anything else.
 

Will

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Heck, just throw Glass Joe over Mac's Brawl AT if you don't have time for anything else.
That’s implying he will be a strong bruiser that’s constantly attacking fighters. He’s brave, but not reckless.

If I were to make an AT of Joe, I’d give him poor damage and zero knockback. However, I’d jack up his health (maybe wear the helmet?) and let croissant food items spawn when you attack him. The stronger the move, the more health you gain.
 

Gorgonzales

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I'd gladly take someone like Mr. Sandman or Aran Ryan as a second rep, if not a boss for the former. Heck, just throw Glass Joe over Mac's Brawl AT if you don't have time for anything else.
Glass Joe dies in one hit but there's a 1% chance he blocks your attack and counters with a lethal OHKO punch.

That’s implying he will be a strong bruiser that’s constantly attacking fighters. He’s brave, but not reckless.

If I were to make an AT of Joe, I’d give him poor damage and zero knockback. However, I’d jack up his health (maybe wear the helmet?) and let croissant food items spawn when you attack him. The stronger the move, the more health you gain.
French Sandbag, what an idea!
 

RileyXY1

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IIRC they have a music guy who picks which tracks would be best to pull for the game. Given Sakurai's comments on The Roost in SSB4, I imagine the track selection is mainly influenced by "does the tone fit?", which can cause some oddities like Dark Samus not having her theme.

In Dark Samus's case, I could see them having passed on it because it's more moody than anything else in terms of tone. Good for feeling sinister, but it lacks the more energetic rhythms that they seem to tend to look for.
I think that comment about Dark Samus's theme only applies to the Prime 2 version, not the Prime 3 version which is far more fast paced and a better fit for a fighting game like this.
 

Louie G.

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Why do you think Punch Out!! has so little content?
It's been one of my greatest points of frustration for a decade now, but I think there are a few things that sufficiently explain it. Although the lack of an Assist Trophy is straight up indefensible at this point, I really do not understand it. Anything else... even if I disagree, I can think of a reason for.

The main point to mention is that Punch-Out is especially obscure in Japan. Fun fact, Super Punch Out did not even release out there until 1998 as a download through the Nintendo Power flashcart. It doesn't even have an official physical version, to my knowledge. And the original NES game hinged on the star power of Mike Tyson, a worldwide star no doubt but boxing is a bigger attraction here in the west (although perhaps the existence of a certain famous manga implies otherwise, I'm not sure - Mac is more "Rocky" than "Ippo" anyway). I recall when Little Mac was revealed, many Japanese fans did not know who he was or felt indifferent toward such a forgotten character.

With this in mind, it makes some sense to me that Little Mac is essentially treated with the reverence of a "retro" character. And his moveset notably fixates on the KO Meter, rather than the Star uppercut mechanic that we all had anticipated. I'm unsure how well the Wii game did in Japan, probably not exceptionally well, and even that was developed by Next Level Games on western soil. I feel that Punch-Out is the most "all-American" Nintendo series this side of Startropics. And perhaps this creates a slight divide between how significant I think this series is, and how significant developers overseas perceive it to be. In some ways I still feel that Little Mac is fortunate to be here at all.

A notable lapse in content is Punch-Out's music selection, which I think can just be explained by the lack of original songs in the series. All of the original boxer themes in Punch-Out Wii, IMO, should be in Smash Bros. But to be fair, they're all arrangements of the Minor Circuit theme. I don't think this ought to be a problem when the entire ARMS soundtrack is in the game, a soundtrack that takes a fairly similar approach, but a wide variety of music has never exactly been at the forefront of Punch-Out as much as a good two or three very iconic tracks. Please let us play Tomorrow's Passion again on Boxing Ring though, that's easily one of the most unfortunate losses from the new approach to stage music.

And the stage itself... look, Boxing Ring is all we really need. Punch-Out takes place in one location and we've got it. I'd be totally down to see a NYC Street stage based on the jogging cutscene, or a depiction of Mac's training gym from Punch-Out Wii and his Smash 4 trailer, but I'm alright if we don't.

It has not many exploitable characters.
Come on, that's definitely not true. All the enemy boxers are so dynamic and fun, I feel like in another world there's a version of Boxing Ring that just has them all hanging out and jeering you from the sidelines. But at bare minimum, there's certainly enough material to make one or two Assist Trophies out of. Glass Joe, King Hippo, Bald Bull, Great Tiger... Aran Ryan??
 
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TheFirstPoppyBro

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Honestly, if I had to pick an Assist Trophy from Punch-Out, I’d probably pick Bald Bull just because he’s been in every game. He’s in the original arcade game, makes a cameo as Mask X in the Arm Wrestling arcade game, and he’s in the original NES game, Super Punch-Out, AND Punch-Out Wii.

Could have him go around the stage attacking folks, but the more he gets hit, the angrier and quicker he gets until eventually he hits a cap and charges with a Bull Rush, attacking anyone in his path or something like that.
 
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dream1ng

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Why do you think Punch Out!! has so little content?

It's got a character and a nice stage, sure. It's even got the entire Wii cast as spirits. But it has no AT, only five music tracks and not a single new remix in Ultimate.

It just seems kind of ignored.
Well it's only received one (full) game since the SNES, which itself is now verging into retro, which was successful but not crazily so, and is probably the series on the roster with the least amount of popularity in Japan. Plus there's been little demand for anything more from it.

Some other series might be in situations not dissimilar to some of these points, like having few recent games, but I think the lack of Japanese presence would explain why when given a choice, such as with the music, Japanese composers would rather work on something else.

As for ATs, those can be erratic anyway. I mean it took until Ultimate for Pikmin and DK to get one. Yoshi still doesn't have one. I would imagine they just view other series with more priority, especially because the series is already obscure in Japan, its supporting characters would be even more so.
 

smashkirby

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If Smash ever gets a rhythm game rep, it might be a Rhythm Heaven character. But I still think a DDR (Dance Dance Revolution) character (Possibly Afro/Disco or Boldo) would be pretty cool.

Come to think of it, now I kinda wanna see Ulala (Space Channel 5) get into Smash (if they can include Mexican Flyer)
You already know who I would love as rythm game rep
View attachment 394732
As far as potential rhythm fighters, I admit my real preference is for Amigo, if just because there's so much character to him and his design just makes him feel like a figure that would fit easily in Smash:

That could be an interesting WTF character.
I still covet for my beloved not Rouge:
View attachment 394745
So, I'm not the only one with a surprisingly varied list of potential musical/rhythm-based characters that could work for Smash Bros.. I'm especially happy to see folks that would like Barbara and Amigo!

That said, if we're just posting characters we'd like in Smash with that niche...
monabeat-the-beat-rhythm-pa-4ffb054add540.jpg

I still stand by the idea that Yuka would be a more fitting rep for Rhythm Heaven than Karate Joe. Not that I wouldn't accept him, but he feels 'ham-strung' by his whole "karate-thing", you know? Like, in the sense that seeing a karate practitioner doing some of R.H.'s more... 'out-of-pocket' stuff would look odd.

So who are some characters that have a low chance of getting in, but would have a really unique and interesting moveset?
I mean... just about every first-party character I'd like in Smash falls under this question, but if I had to be particular?

Lark from Pilotwings, for one thing. To not limit myself, I suppose the rest of the cast from Pilotwings 64 (Kiwi, Goose, Ibis, Hawk, Hooter/Robin) could easily use this moveset.

If Sakurai were willing to do it, I can see Lark utilize the various vehicles and flight gear from across all 3 games in the series. He could use a Rocketbelt to recover and/or tackle opponents, he could use the Jumble Hopper spring boots for an Up Smash, the Birdman flight suit could be used as a form of gliding (if that ever returns) or for smash attacks, all to name a few ideas.

Of course, the Gyrocopter from Pilotwings 64 would be his Final Smash, firing missiles from the foreground.

Monolith has a 25th anniversary site up


Not much new info but there are some wallpapers

If you want to stretch it could also be a decent indicator of what characters could be considered for smash? or some **** like that IDK
Ngl, pretty amazed to see Raymond Bryce (from Disaster: Day of Crisis) and Welt and Idea (from Soma Bringer) on this. Conversely, I really thought I'd see Reiji and Xiaomu from Namco's 'X' games on this, given Xenosaga and Baiten Kaitos' presence.

Heck, don't they appear in Monolith's 25th anniversary video?

I am going to try to sell you on Oatchi from Pikmin 4 as a Smash bros. character, here is a basic moveset mock up. Artwork is borrowed from Kino Takahashi's official Pikmin 4 comic strips.


General Stats and Premise
View attachment 394798

Down Special: Lumiknoll Dig
View attachment 394800

Neutral Special: Glowmob
View attachment 394801

Side Special: Mega Rush
View attachment 394802

Up Special: Space Dog Lift-off
View attachment 394803

Misc. Mechanics
View attachment 394804

Final Smash: The Glowbomb
View attachment 394805
As many others have said, while I've already been perfectly fine with the idea of Oatchi being a playable character, getting a visual of how the guy would work in Smash DEFINITELY helped sell me all the more on such an idea!

I actually don't think Pikmin's ever had a stronger contender for a non-Echo Fighter newcomer than Oatchi.

People have good had ideas for Louie, but the developers could just as easily turn him into an Echo Fighter.

Alph ended up as an alternate skin for Olimar and neither he nor Brittany or Charlie really have any unique abilities compared to Olimar, even less so with the Winged Pikmin incorporated into his recovery move.

Plasm Wraith certainly has a lot of potential, but it's limited presence in 3 (and virtually none beyond that game) makes it unlikely to be a character Sakurai and the other devs would strongly consider.

Oatchi, though? He's not only front and center throughout the entirety of Pikmin 4, but he's also got several entirely unique abilities, including attacks, and the presence of brand new Pikmin types that haven't been incorporated into Olimar's moveset yet gives the devs the opportunity to do something new with at least one of the new Pikmin species.

If Pikmin gets any newcomer in the next Smash game at all, I'm quickly becoming convinced that it's going to be Oatchi.
Yeah, pretty much. While I do hope Alph gets a stronger presence in Smash going forward (if he's not going to be separated from Olimar, at least let him appear in more promo material), I can definitely see Oatchi debuting as a playable character before him.

With that said, I still think that RodNutTakin RodNutTakin 's idea of having Olimar, Louie, Alph, and Pom/Lisa share a character slot (a'la the Heroes of Dragon Quest) would be a nice compromise.

I haven't played Pikmin 4 beyond the first hour-ish of the demo, but there the avatar can also ride on Oatchi, who carries all the Pikmin for you. If we absolutely need the P4 player character, I think we could just have them ride on Oatchi's back and it wouldn't get in the way of Oatchi's moveset

After all, Munchie rides around in :ulthero2:'s pocket and there's no issues there, right? :4pacman:
Honestly, if Pom/Lisa DOESN'T end up being in a Hero-styled situation with Olimar, Alph, and Louie, sharing a character slot with them? Her being a 'mounted' fighter on Oatchi would be her next best bet in my eyes,

Can't comment on the music but afaik, composers chose which tracks to remix themselves so it seems just bad luck to me.
Double checked and yep, he even mentions that it did end up with some overlap due to the composers being able to pick.



Definitely a double-edged sword case as you get a lot of tracks with a lot of passion to them since they're free to pick what they want, but it does leave certain series with a bulk of remixes and others with little. It's also probably why we have infamous cases like the multitude Jungle Japes remixes.

I do wonder how licensing works for the music since in some cases they do lack even the original tracks, such as Dark Samus' theme.
It's unfortunate, but it kinda makes sense that none of the composers were interested in Punch Out. The series isn't very popular in Japan, and if I'm not mistaken all of the base game remixes were done by Japanese people. We ended up getting Grant Kirkhope and Toby Fox in the DLC, but they only did one song each (and for their own series). If the next game has more Western composers, I think the odds of more Punch-Out music go way up
I'm starting to wonder if THIS is why Pilotwings 64 hasn't had any of its music used in Smash so far, remixed or otherwise. I mean, the game's music WAS composed by someone who lives in Texas after all...
 

Gengar84

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It probably won't happen, but I'm kind of hoping the next game will have remixes that are at least 3-5 minutes long (and then the song loops).
Yeah, it was especially bad how they cut the DK Rap so short. Longer song loops would be great. We did get the entire One-Winged Angel, which is like 7 minutes long so maybe they figured something out during the DLC.
 

The Stoopid Unikorn

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Yeah, it was especially bad how they cut the DK Rap so short. Longer song loops would be great. We did get the entire One-Winged Angel, which is like 7 minutes long so maybe they figured something out during the DLC.
That may be because they don't have to worry about cramming everything into a cartridge with limited memory space when it comes to DLC.
 

Laniv

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Why do you think Punch Out!! has so little content?

It's got a character and a nice stage, sure. It's even got the entire Wii cast as spirits. But it has no AT, only five music tracks and not a single new remix in Ultimate.

It just seems kind of ignored.
I'm surprised Bald Bull or King Hippo never made it as Assist Trophies. Heck, Glass Joe could work as a Goldeen-like dud summon.

In terms of fighters, Doc Louis or Mr. Sandman are my choices.

As for the music... my first instinct is to say that all the music in Punch-Out!! Wii is the same track with different instruments, but nothing's stopping them from just porting them over, or just pulling from Super Punch-Out!!.
 

The Stoopid Unikorn

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As for the music... my first instinct is to say that all the music in Punch-Out!! Wii is the same track with different instruments, but nothing's stopping them from just porting them over, or just pulling from Super Punch-Out!!.
It won't stop them because we have precedent of them doing this exact same thing and no, I don't mean DKC Jungle Level theme.

A good chunk of ARMS's soundtrack, if not all of it, is essentially the same as Punch-Out!! Wii; a ton of tracks with wildly different instruments and vibes yet all of them will do the exact same leitmotif. And in Ultimate, Min Min's challenger pack is like, third place in terms of how much music it brings when compared with every other DLC.

So what I'm saying is it wouldn't be impossible for them to just... bring more tracks from Punch-Out!! if they wanted to.

I don't think it's needed because what we have is very much enough for me to feel the series isn't underrepped music-wise (though more music is always good), but it's certainly a direction they can take for it and have already taken before for another IP.
 
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