Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Guynamednelson]

The latter was what I was talking about, not Tiny Toon Adventures.

BLT was in the 2000s, that's why I thought you were talking about TTA when you referred to that 80s/90s trend.

 

[Dinoman96]

-Baby characters are/were a hard sell to make cool/exciting to an audience

Ironically Nintendo of America thought the exact opposite when marketing DKC3.

- YouTube

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IT'S DONKEY KONG COUNTRY 3, STARRING KIDDY KOOOOOOONG

 

[Perkilator]

-Baby characters are/were a hard sell to make cool/exciting to an audience

And I guess Nintendo never learned after all those years, if Baby Rosalina is any indication. Hopefully the next Mario Kart cuts down on the baby characters in the roster.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Ironically Nintendo of America thought the exact opposite when marketing DKC3.

- YouTube

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IT'S DONKEY KONG COUNTRY 3, STARRING KIDDY KOOOOOOONG

As someone who will unironically defend the Nintendo "Play It Loud" advertising era, I'll be the first admit... it had its missteps.

 

[Ivander]

BLT was in the 2000s, that's why I thought you were talking about TTA when you referred to that 80s/90s trend.

Did it come out in the 2000s?! Geez, they were trying to keep that trend alive, weren't they?

 

[Guynamednelson]

Did it come out in the 2000s?! Geez, they were trying to keep that trend alive, weren't they?

Well now you know why I said it "was eventually a thing".

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

And I guess Nintendo learned after all those years, if Baby Rosalina is any indication. Hopefully the next Mario Kart cuts down on the baby characters in the roster.

Honestly I wouldn't even mind the amount of babies if we just removed Baby Daisy and Baby Rosalina and replaced them with the other two actual babies in Yoshi's Island DS, AKA Baby DK and Baby Wario.

Baby DK was at least in Super Mario Sluggers, but Baby Wario basically stopped existing outside of like Dr. Baby Wario in Dr. Mario World lol

 

[Laniv]

the British people thought a baby was the perfect companion for a third adventure.

This is why we never got Banjo-Threeie: Baby Banjo and Eggshell Kazooie were too much for the N64 to handle.

 

[Will]

This is why we never got Banjo-Threeie: Baby Banjo and Eggshell Kazooie were too much for the N64 to handle.

So, like, is it Banjo & Kazooie as kids… or the other possibility?

 

[EarlTamm]

You know, the combo of Indie and Partners Direct reminds me of how hopeful I was after Cadence of Hyrule that Nintendo would lend out IPs to fitting indie devs. I guess there has been some examples since(Wayforward working on the Advance Wars 1+2: Re-Boot Camp), but nothing quite to the crossover level of Cadence of Hyrule. These directs feels like the last opportunity for that to happen again on the Switch.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

We're gonna get DKC made by the Hollow Knight devs.

I predicted it first! Me! I get the Internet brownie points!

 

[RodNutTakin]

I think what helped bury Kiddy is that Chunky came along only a few years later and was pretty much better in every way in terms of being a heavyweight Kong that wasn't DK.

 

[ninjahmos]

They probably wouldn't do it, but if Dixie were to join Smash, I'm hoping they not only add in more music from DKC2, but also some music from DKC3 (both the SNES and GBA versions).

 

[toonito]

Re: If Smash Debuted Today

IMO this would be the 12 character roster

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Kiddy can be a Final Smash cameo or a down B at most, I wouldn't really be a fan of him and Dixie being a full double character.
Dixie's main appeal is her ponytail, it acts as a fifth limb and makes her able to float, propel upwards and turbine jet around. That's more than enough to make her unique.
Plus she only got paired with Kiddy once, even though that happened during her solo outing.

They probably wouldn't do it, but if Dixie were to join Smash, I'm hoping they not only add in more music from DKC2, but also some music from DKC3 (both the SNES and GBA versions).

Tropical Freeze too! It's crazy it only has two songs, and those two songs are not even among the most memorable ones...

 

[Gorgonzales]

Ironically Nintendo of America thought the exact opposite when marketing DKC3.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

IT'S DONKEY KONG COUNTRY 3, STARRING KIDDY KOOOOOOONG

This commercial is so funny to me because it implies they didn't want a girl being the focus of the marketing so the only alternative was to try and sell people on the drooling toddler

 

[cashregister9]

I know this is only tangentially related, but if we are talking about US commercials being weird at representing things

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Absolutely legendary commercial.

 

[robot067]

I've been playing a lot of Return to Dreamland Deluxe lately, it has me wondering if we could see another cell-shaded smash game like 3DS. I would love to see that.

 

[ShotoStar]

I'm going to be honest, I don't think Dixie Kong has enough going for her to be a fully unique character by herself. Her ponytail can lend itself to some unique moves but I don't know if that alone can get her pass the bar of being a Diddy Kong echo perhaps ala Chrom where she has moves compositing from other DKC characters in the Roster (a mashup of Diddy and DK's moves).

It's why I think partnering her up with another Kong might be the best way to go about it, it plays around with the original idea for Diddy but puts a unique perspective on it by throwing a different Kong in with Dixie instead. It allows them to focus on what makes Dixie unique compared to Diddy with less room to share similarities if the Down-B is taken up by a switching mechanic. I'd prefer for Dixie to be teamed up with Kiddy as a throwback to DKC3 and it evens each other out with a lightweight/heavyweight but if they want to throw a curveball they could make it a duo of Dixie and Cranky. Cranky is in a similar situation to Dixie from my perspective where he also doesn't have enough to be a standalone fighter and even if he did he's not a viable/strong enough contender to ever really get in outside of an oddball situation like this so it's either a duo for him or nothing.

Dixie has the possibility of being an echo or a duo fighter so that doesn't really check out for Cranky in the same way whereas his only real possibility is being a curveball duo with Dixie imo. Again, I think a Dixie & Kiddy duo would be better than a Dixie & Cranky duo but it's an idea I'll throw out and see how people vibe with it

 

[Louie G.]

I'm going to be honest, I don't think Dixie Kong has enough going for her to be a fully unique character by herself. Her ponytail can lend itself to some unique moves but I don't know if that alone can get her pass the bar of being a Diddy Kong echo perhaps ala Chrom where she has moves compositing from other DKC characters in the Roster (a mashup of Diddy and DK's moves).

I mean, there's a pretty hefty middle ground between unique and being a Diddy Kong echo. Semiclones exist, we even got one as recently as Ultimate with Isabelle. Dixie Kong's best odds in my opinion are being a lower dev strain character akin to Wolf in Brawl, who maintains elements of her source character but has almost entirely new normals to compensate for her most distinguishing feature. Wolf had claws, Dixie Kong has a ponytail. Smash is always influenced by these prominent design elements to inform a moveset. Unless it's a real last minute affair I feel like they wouldn't squander that.

Could Dixie Kong be an echo fighter?? Yeah, I think she could be - it's not ideal, but it's not unfeasible. I was just a little alarmed by the extreme contrast here. I find it odd the way echo is often the default for any derivative character nowadays when we haven't totally retired the concept of semiclones.

 

[Ivander]

Dixie's main appeal is her ponytail, it acts as a fifth limb and makes her able to float, propel upwards and turbine jet around. That's more than enough to make her unique.

And she can literally attack with it as well. Both her and her sister Tiny have attacks where they attack with their hair. Yet people insist on making her an Echo Fighter of Diddy. Not even a semi-clone. Just an Echo Fighter. It's part of why I dislike Echo Fighters sometimes because some people are capable of making an entirely original moveset for characters with less limbs than most of the cast, but then sideline a character who has more than enough potential to have their own moveset to Echo Fighter status because "similarities, some being decently reasonable to incredibly far straw grasping like trained by the same character in their home game".

Echo Fighters shouldn't be a necessity of cramming so many fighters in. Not everyone is pleased with some Echo Fighters like Daisy, Dark Samus, Dark Pit, Lucina or Chrom not having their own movesets. And they are definitely capable of having their own moveset, but obviously didn't have the resources or the priority to be their own unique fighters. So the Echo Fighter scenarios happened because these characters were still decently popular and were able to get in because they could play similarly to another character. Not because "How many clone characters can we fill this game with?! Try and find a potential Echo Fighter for EVERY character!"

 

[Diddy Kong]

As noted, the issues with Kiddy basically came down to three things:

-His design was a bit meh in comparison to the well-received ones of DK, Diddy, & Dixie
-Baby characters are/were a hard sell to make cool/exciting to an audience
-He felt a bit redundant as the big contrast to Dixie when many felt DK should have been the playable partner in DKC3

Those were the significant factors at the time, though I think these days Kiddy just is more ignored than actively disliked.

True but the whole point of Kiddy was also to not steal the spot light from Dixie. A playable DK or Diddy would do that. Kiddy helped to keep the focus on Dixie.

Which is why the tag team seemed silly to me in the first place. Kiddy wasn't meant for this type of attention in the first place, and that's what Smash is in the end. A huge spot light... that Dixie has seemed to miss until this point.

As for the Echo Fighter argument that always seems to pop up: Dixie would've been included if she was Echo material. She matches the popularity of say, Chrom and Daisy. And has more popularity than say Dark Samus or Dark Pit. If she was a simple Echo, she'd be included already.

The very fact she was considered part of a tag team with Diddy means that she was different enough from Diddy to warrant a switching mechanic between the two. Why oh why would that be?

To provide my own counter argument: we haven't had a "new" semi clone since the return of Roy in Smash 4. Brawl was the last time we got true semi clones with the likes of Lucas and Wolf, and they got cut in Smash 4. So , it's a possibility Dixie could be that and just not favored to be included.

I also don't count Isabelle as semi clone. She's more akin to a clone that Melee had, but with some unique features. Nearly not as many as Lucas, Roy, Wolf, Pichu or the smaller Links, but more like say, Dr.Mario.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Echo Dixie only makes sense if you've never played DKC for more than a couple of minutes and also if you ignore basic Smash visual design elements.
First of all, having this giant yellow appendage that gets in the way of all her animations but never has a hitbox nor a hurtbox would be very confusing and feel pretty amateurish. Echo fighters can cut some corners with their portrayal (like Daisy having the blue Toad or Dark Samus lacking her unique abilities) but not if it messes with the readability of the action. It's just not the kind of stuff you see in an official Smash game. It would be a mess.

Then, while you could replace the Peanut Popgun with her Bubble Gun and have them work mostly the same, having her use the Rocketbarrel Pack would just feel wrong, as she 1. never used it, 2. is capable of recovering without it, and 3. it doesn't really fit with her design given how her back is already occupied by the ponytail.
Plus she never does the cartwheel, which appears in two of Diddy's normals. Coming from a platforming series, they already have built-in stat differences that kinda have to be preserved in what is still in part a platforming context: she runs and attacks slower than Diddy does and she can't jump as high as Diddy, but in exchange she can float and move almost horizontally through the air.
Lastly, she's never shown to be as acrobatic as Diddy, while she does have lots of canon abilities that Diddy doesn't have. Including a Dixie that doesn't use her ponytail is like including Banjo without Kazooie. What's the point?
Echo Dixie is a no no.

Wolf/Lucas/Luigi style semi-clone could work. But at that point you have different stats, different normals and similarly-inspired but still different specials, which is basically a unique character...

 

[Louie G.]

I also don't count Isabelle as semi clone. She's more akin to a clone that Melee had, but with some unique features. Nearly not as many as Lucas, Roy, Wolf, Pichu or the smaller Links, but more like say, Dr.Mario.

I get what you mean, but no this isn't true. Isabelle has two fully unique specials, many of her normals as well. She is chock full of completely new animations, she needed to be remodeled entirely to account for this and her different body type. Putting her in the same camp as Dr. Mario implies... well, not to be rude, but how much have you played the character? She is far beyond Melee clones territory.

She is kind of odd, though. Someone like Lucas deviates off Ness' set of specials but has almost entirely new normals. Isabelle has many new normals, but her aerial kit is near identical to Villager's. But two of her specials are entirely different. She's definitely different than these characters but way closer to them spiritually than Melee Falco or Young Link.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Unrelated to the current discussion, but if Terry comes back then they have no choice but to change his Final Smash.

Not because it's bad, but because how do you look at THIS and not realize that it could be even better:

I mean, it's literally him blasting someone into the wall of the stage. It's like it was made to be a Final Smash.

Re: If Smash Debuted Today

IMO this would be the 12 character roster

Yep. That was exactly mine as well except you have Luigi instead of Wario.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Edit: Doublepost

 

[ShotoStar]

I mean, there's a pretty hefty middle ground between unique and being a Diddy Kong echo. Semiclones exist, we even got one as recently as Ultimate with Isabelle. Dixie Kong's best odds in my opinion are being a lower dev strain character akin to Wolf in Brawl, who maintains elements of her source character but has almost entirely new normals to compensate for her most distinguishing feature. Wolf had claws, Dixie Kong has a ponytail. Smash is always influenced by these prominent design elements to inform a moveset. Unless it's a real last minute affair I feel like they wouldn't squander that.

Could Dixie Kong be an echo fighter?? Yeah, I think she could be - it's not ideal, but it's not unfeasible. I was just a little alarmed by the extreme contrast here. I find it odd the way echo is often the default for any derivative character nowadays when we haven't totally retired the concept of semiclones.

Haven't we though? I mean, what line is drawn in the sand between echo fighters and semiclones? I do agree that Dixie Kong doesn't necessarily have to be an echo fighter on the same scale as Dark Samus and Daisy with practically no differences but what makes Chrom or Ken an echo fighter rather than the "semi clone" status? Why couldn't Dixie Kong be an echo along those lines? To me, it seems to be a rather arbitrary and uncertain distinction because by all means Ken is mostly a unique character and should be considered a semi clone yet isn't... for some really weird reason that Sakurai and Co. haven't elaborated on

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Chrom still shares all his stats and 99% of his moves with Roy.
Can't apply that to Dixie.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I get what you mean, but no this isn't true. Isabelle has two fully unique specials, many of her normals as well. She is chock full of completely new animations, she needed to be remodeled entirely to account for this and her different body type. Putting her in the same camp as Dr. Mario implies... well, not to be rude, but how much have you played the character? She is far beyond Melee clones territory.

She is kind of odd, though. Someone like Lucas deviates off Ness' set of specials but has almost entirely new normals. Isabelle has many new normals, but her aerial kit is near identical to Villager's. But two of her specials are entirely different. She's definitely different than these characters but way closer to them spiritually than Melee Falco or Young Link.

I might not have simply cared enough for either Villager or Isabelle to notice to be honest... but I stand corrected.

 

[Guynamednelson]

but what makes Chrom or Ken an echo fighter rather than the "semi clone" status?

In Ken's case, he still has a lot of moves and stats that are 1:1 with Ryu. That isn't the case with clones that've been given separate fighter numbers vs. the fighters they're clones of.

Both Ken and Ryu are based on their Super Turbo versions, which may have been the game where all the rules for how the two should be different were finally fully established, but Ken still shared enough with Ryu that you can get away with making a "How to play Ken" guide just come in the form of addenda to a Ryu guide:

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Dixie would certainly have some similarities with Diddy. I could even see her using the same side and down specials. They could lean into the ponytail though to give her a lot of unique normals, with more range than Diddy.

 

[Oracle Link]

I do wanna know whats your opinion on toon link getting this link as an alt:

Obviously with altered proportions!
If they did that the toon link slot could finnaly be the ultimate 2d link slot!
(Ah and i want more weapon choices for Link like the four sword, phantom or lokomo)

That way we finnaly get some proper 2d rep!

 

[TheQuester]

Tbh, i could see Hollow Knght and Zagreus from Hades getting over Sans as time goes on.
I see Hollow Knight and Hades more talked about those days and they're also getting actual sequels.

 

[Swaggod7]

Nintendo trying not to make a Mario themed stage that has grass (IMPOSSIBLE)

Bottom Text​

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Nintendo trying not to make a Mario themed stage that has grass (IMPOSSIBLE)

Bottom Text​

Rainbow Cruise, Mushroomy Kingdom, Delfino Plaza and New Donk City Hall?

 

[BuckleyTim]

Tbh, i could see Hollow Knght and Zagreus from Hades getting over Sans as time goes on.
I see Hollow Knight and Hades more talked about those days and they're also getting actual sequels.

eh, give it a year or two... I'm sure when Deltarune's next part is released it'll bring with it a new wave of hype and discussion.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Not everyone is pleased with some Echo Fighters like Daisy, Dark Samus, Dark Pit, Lucina or Chrom not having their own movesets.

So...basically all of them?

I wonder if all the term "Echo Fighter" did was split the community on people who bought the marketing push and people who are like "it doesn't matter what you call it, clones suck!"

Haven't we though? I mean, what line is drawn in the sand between echo fighters and semiclones? I do agree that Dixie Kong doesn't necessarily have to be an echo fighter on the same scale as Dark Samus and Daisy with practically no differences but what makes Chrom or Ken an echo fighter rather than the "semi clone" status? Why couldn't Dixie Kong be an echo along those lines? To me, it seems to be a rather arbitrary and uncertain distinction because by all means Ken is mostly a unique character and should be considered a semi clone yet isn't... for some really weird reason that Sakurai and Co. haven't elaborated on

And now we're back to "what even is an Echo Fighter anyway?".

Maybe we should just stop using the term entirely. It seems like for the most part, when someone says that X could be an Echo Fighter of Y, they're always picturing a semi-clone, while everyone else pictures a glorified alternate costume.

 

[Zerp]

Speaking of Dixie, the thought of her as an echo mildly terrifies me. Like, do I REALLY want a Diddy Kong clone with a gliding mechanic? Do I really wanna see Diddy Kong but with discount Peach float, likely still with Banana + Monkey Flip? No, no I do not. For the love of all things holy please make her unique lol

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Tbh, i could see Hollow Knght and Zagreus from Hades getting over Sans as time goes on.
I see Hollow Knight and Hades more talked about those days and they're also getting actual sequels.

I don't think we'll see The Knight. Indie characters aren't super likely anyway, and by the time it actually becomes a more realistic goal, Hornet is who everyone will be gunning for. In fact, once Silksong comes out, I see most conversations about him being something like:

"Hey they should add Hornet, she'd be so cool."
"What about The Knight?"
"Ew no. He's super boring and has no personality. Hornet is more popular anyway."

 

[Louie G.]

Tbh, i could see Hollow Knght and Zagreus from Hades getting over Sans as time goes on.
I see Hollow Knight and Hades more talked about those days and they're also getting actual sequels.

Hollow Knight is not bigger than Undertale my man. Neither is Hades but I will say I think Zagreus is kind of an underrated pick too. Nintendo has surprisingly shown a good deal of investment in it. Was also in the GOTY conversation a few years ago, it definitely has clout.

And for the record, much of that discussion is stemming from the notorious absence of a Hollow Knight game right now. Undertale is also getting a highly anticipated sequel and will be the talk of the town again once the next chapter drops.