Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Among Waddle Dees]

If we're going with the "we can't get another Kirby character because Sakurai didn't make all the ones people want" theory...he'd be more likely to want Bandana Dee instead of Magalor. He made his partial debut in Super Star, AKA that Kirby game Smash keeps referencing.

I actually wonder otherwise. In addition to Magolor getting a proper Spirit battle in Ultimate, he is one of the very few Smash 4 trophies that aren't dated.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I think you're doing your best and that's all we can ask. It would just be good to try to keep track as best we can of where the votes are coming from, especially if it's being spread among certain fandoms' Reddits and whatnots.

Btw, has the poll been spread to series-specific forums and sites like, for example, Serenes Forest or Serebii?

Thankfully I have kept track of all the places the poll has gone.

We have been through here, Discord, Twitter, Famiboards, GameFAQs, and the subreddits I've listed above.

I have not posted it to series specific forums. I don't know if I should.

 

[MrMcNuts]

I feel like Crash is in a similar spot to Rayman.

Someone at Nintendo has to know that a good amount of people would like to see them in Smash, but both their franchises may be in too much turmoil for that to happen this time.

I don't mean to disrespect another character but I feel if they acknowledged shantae as a fan demanded character, then I'd be shocked to hell if they aren't aware of bigger demands like Rayman, Crash and Chief.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Unrelated to the current discussion, but if Terry comes back then they have no choice but to change his Final Smash.

Not because it's bad, but because how do you look at THIS and not realize that it could be even better:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

They could give him two Final Smashes, like they did for Ryu and Ken.

 

[Perkilator]

If we're going with the "we can't get another Kirby character because Sakurai didn't make all the ones people want" theory...he'd be more likely to want Bandana Dee instead of Magalor. He made his partial debut in Super Star, AKA that Kirby game Smash keeps referencing.

And here I am, the only person thinking to myself "why not both?"

 

[Gorgonzales]

I've said this a million times by now, but it's still really sad to know that Dixie actually was seriously considered for inclusion back in Brawl...as a tag team partner for Diddy Kong, like in DKC2. But then it proved to be technologically unfeasible and Dixie was scrapped entirely in favour of just solo Diddy, and then Sakurai never looked back.

If Dixie gets in I really hope they revisit this idea. Diddy and Dixie could do wonders as a tag-team fighter now that the hardware is up to the task almost 2 decades later.

 

[Louie G.]

In regards to Dixie Kong... I like her, she's cool! I think she checks off the boxes to "deserve" being in Smash, she is one of DK's central three protagonists. On a personal level, she is not a newcomer that interests me a whole lot.

I don't feel that anyone is wrong for wanting her though, I see the fun potential in fighting with a ponytail and I recognize the way she is an important character to those who grew up with DKC2 or 3. But I've kind of felt comfortable with a series like DK or Kirby having their three characters. I'm satisfied with these characters, and this is me being a massive Kirby fan (and I like DKC quite a lot too - K. Rool was one of my MW). Two or three feels like kind of a good number (or at least basic foundation) if you're not Mario or Pokemon or whatever, particularly in a scenario where the roster may be downscaling or even just leveling out to Ult base size.

With big characters like Dixie or to some extent Bandana Dee, I just feel as if there's a divide between the way I've come to view Smash lately and the way others in the community do. I think most of our bare essential characters are here, barring a few late bloomers who are just catching up having been added later into the series (Tom Nook) or are freshly new characters who haven't had the chance to join yet (Ring Fit Trainee, I guess). BWD and Dixie Kong check off the boxes to make sense as additions, they are important characters, but I feel in a crossover fighter we don't necessarily need to have EVERY significant character accounted for. Past a certain point I think it's a bit more valuable to talk about who is bringing the most to the table, taking liberties and perhaps taking the chance to start representing series with no characters at all.

Although to disqualify maybe everything I was saying, I'd still be happy enough to see either of these two. I've got nothing against them whatsoever. I just don't think I see them as essential the same way much of the community has come to, and I can live with priorities being dealt elsewhere.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

It is fascinating to see the varying levels for proper franchise representation is. To me, any proper IP of notable characters/decent prominence should have at least four. Not only for the novelty of having classic 4 player Smash battles with them, but it feels like with four you're in a position to at least do justice to the novelty/range of what an IP has to offer to some degree. Granted there's always varying factors with this (how do echo fighters/semi clones work in such a paradigm as one example) but I think that's why at least to me, so many series feel so close to almost being there. At a certain point it's hard for me to look at things like Kirby and DK with such long/varied history and concluding that the three fighters each they have genuinely fully embody their scope.

Of course, one's bias is always going to play a factor in something like this, when one loves a franchise its remarkably easy to look at them in Smash and have the sentiment that it can be so much more than what it is.

 

[Louie G.]

One's bias is always going to play a factor in something like this, when one loves a franchise its remarkably easy to look at them in Smash and have the sentiment that it can be so much more than what it is.

Kirby is my favorite Nintendo series, just for the record. If anything my bias should be influencing me otherwise. I just do genuinely feel that we could coast off Kirby, King Dedede and Meta Knight forever and that will never feel like a dated lineup of characters.

Kirby can be so much more in Smash, but that's getting into all the nonplayable content we're missing out on. Stages, Assist Trophies and Music are my priority here. Bandana Dee helps add just a bit extra acknowledgement of Kirby's contemporary history, but the trio we have is still very much relevant and driving the series forward in every new title. Sometimes Dedede and Meta Knight have to take turns, but yeah.

I mean hell, if I had free reign of the roster and completely shed all my integrity I could add four or five new Kirby characters and they'd all bring something fun and interesting to the table. But on the other hand, having the three catch-all most narratively significant characters in Smash, all who play completely different and emphasize their personalities in such a dynamic way, I feel blessed about that. It's what Kirby deserves, but I almost find it hard to bring myself to beg for anything more. It's a little strange I admit, but I think it's okay to just be satisfied.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Kirby is my favorite Nintendo series, just for the record. If anything my bias should be influencing me otherwise. I just do genuinely feel that we could coast off Kirby, King Dedede and Meta Knight forever and that will never feel like a dated lineup of characters.

Kirby can be so much more in Smash, but that's getting into all the nonplayable content we're missing out on. I mean hell, if I had free reign of the roster and completely shed all my integrity I could add four or five new Kirby characters and they'd all bring something fun and interesting to the table. But on the other hand, having the three catch-all most narratively significant characters in Smash, all who play completely different and emphasize their personalities in such a dynamic way, I feel blessed about that. It's what Kirby deserves, but I almost find it hard to bring myself to beg for anything more. It's a little strange I admit.

With Kirby it's almost a timeline factor a work. As much as I loved the games prior to Return to Dreamland, I think it could be fairly said that the three we had in Smash felt like it fit generally what the series more or less had been. But with the quality of three straight great games (RtDL, Triple Deluxe, & Planet Robobot) culminating in a release that literally took the franchise into uncharted (and well regarded territory) with Forgotten Land? It makes what it overall feels like in Smash increasingly seem like an anachronism to a degree. Heck as much as I want Dixie in Smash, one would be entirely accurate in saying DK has not really grown or evolved in the past 10 years (a lack of games will do that).

Kirby has become a solid foundation of Nintendo with interesting mechanics/characters as part of it, and if the next game has something similar to Ultimate in in how it presents the franchise? It almost starts feeling it goes beyond outdated presentation to in some ways inaccurate in how this seemingly notable IP is being manifested in a major crossover.

(All this is coming from a fan with their own biases and preferences to be fair)

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

If Dixie gets in I really hope they revisit this idea. Diddy and Dixie could do wonders as a tag-team fighter now that the hardware is up to the task almost 2 decades later.

Well that depends on if the programming is up to the task because I think Rex had the same sort of idea going before he got canned in favor of Pyra/Mythra, since I believe Sakurai mentioned having Pyra assist him in the background was too difficult, so if that's the case it may still be too difficult for the team to pull something like that off.

Here's the quote from SmashWiki about Rex being considered for reference: " At one point in development, Rex was planned to fight alongside Pyra and Mythra similar to the Ice Climbers, but he was removed due to technical issues with the implementation of the idea, like getting both characters to move at the same time which was impossible to do, Sakurai also stated that Rex as the main fighter with Pyra/Mythra behind him was also too difficult."

 

[DKing]

A question for the thread :Do you think we will see 3 fighter pass next game?

 

[Perkilator]

A question for the thread :Do you think we will see 3 fighter pass next game?

I think that depends heavily on whether or not Sakurai and/or Nintendo feel like the game could last three fighter passes.

 

[Louie G.]

With Kirby it's almost a timeline factor a work. As much as I loved the games prior to Return to Dreamland, I think it could be fairly said that the three we had in Smash felt like it fit generally what the series more or less had been. But with the quality of three straight great games (RtDL, Triple Deluxe, & Planet Robobot) culminating in a release that literally took the franchise into uncharted (and well regarded territory) with Forgotten Land? It makes what it overall feels like in Smash increasingly seem like an anachronism to a degree.

Yes, I definitely 100% agree with this but I guess the divide from my perspective vs yours is that I believe this manifests just fine through a new RTDL and Forgotten Land stage, a couple Assist Trophies from the modern titles and some tracks that aren't simply the most obvious overworld and boss themes. Bandana Dee does serve to demonstrate some of the series' growth through RTDL, Star Allies and Forgotten Land. Of course if they did add him I would think it's justified, and I would celebrate it. Although I don't think his absence reveals this greater issue if they take other efforts to mend it.

But maybe my satisfaction has something to do with the very unorthodox roles each of these characters play. Kirby, Dedede and Meta Knight are such unique characters in execution, and it makes this series feel so differently accounted for than most others in Smash. Because these characters don't fall neatly into the standard hero, villain and sidekick / deuteragonist roles that we typically see across the roster... what exactly are Dedede and Meta Knight? Historically they have been antagonists, progressed into heroes and friends, sometimes slot back into their roles under a greater influence which also kind of makes them damsels in distress? All in all are Kirby's friendly rivals, who will protect and yet look up to the little guy in many ways. They are everything at once somehow. Bandana Dee is mostly Kirby's sidekick... and that's cool, he doesn't have to be anything else, but there's a level of depth to these three that I really, really like and I think that generally just makes me put them in this special, exclusive category. Which is why I still kind of read the Dee as perhaps a tier below.

But to clarify again, that isn't me saying he shouldn't be in the game. It's just part of why I'd be okay if he's not.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

monkey helicopter

"We have monkey helicopter at home."

 

[Guynamednelson]

A question for the thread :Do you think we will see 3 fighter pass next game?

I think that depends heavily on whether or not Sakurai and/or Nintendo feel like the game could last three fighter passes.

Apparently the end of SSBU DLC has a lot to do with Tekken 8 starting development, as the gap between patch 13.0.1 (the one with support for most FP2+Metroid Dread amiibo) and 13.0.2 (the one with Sora amiibo support) lines up with when Tekken 8 would be under development, and Harada's even said that now that Sora's released, a lot of Smash's devs can return to Tekken Project:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

So...better hope Tekken 8 has several years of DLC.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Yes, I definitely 100% agree with this but I guess the divide from my perspective vs yours is that I believe this manifests just fine through a new RTDL and Forgotten Land stage, a couple Assist Trophies from the modern titles and some tracks that aren't simply the most obvious overworld and boss themes. Bandana Dee does serve to demonstrate some of the series' growth through RTDL, Star Allies and Forgotten Land. Of course if they did add him I would think it's justified, and I would celebrate it. Although I don't think his absence reveals this greater issue if they take other efforts to mend it.

But maybe my satisfaction has something to do with the very unorthodox roles each of these characters play. Kirby, Dedede and Meta Knight are such unique characters in execution, and it makes this series feel so differently accounted for than most others in Smash. Because these characters don't fall neatly into the standard hero, villain and sidekick / deuteragonist roles that we typically see across the roster... what exactly are Dedede and Meta Knight? Historically they have been antagonists, progressed into heroes and friends, sometimes slot back into their roles under a greater influence which also kind of makes them damsels in distress? All in all are Kirby's friendly rivals, who will protect and yet look up to the little guy in many ways. They are everything at once somehow. Bandana Dee is mostly Kirby's sidekick... and that's cool, he doesn't have to be anything else, but there's a level of depth to these three that I really, really like and I think that generally just makes me put them in this special, exclusive category. Which is why I still kind of read the Dee as perhaps a tier below.

And to clarify again, that isn't me saying he shouldn't be in the game. It's just part of why I'd be okay if he's not.

I suppose from a meta (not the Knight) standpoint BWD could embody the growth of the series and the positive effect of Kirby himself (with even common enemies getting their turn via helper to hero). His adventuring and willingness to save the day has taken a novelty mook and inspired him to step up. Thus, Kirby has not only impressed Meta Knight and completely turned Dedede into an ally, but he's also helped make even the most unlikely characters into heroes.

Doesn't really justify BWD's inclusion from a gameplay perspective, but I can see the tonal argument for the character's novelty.

 

[ShotoStar]

A question for the thread :Do you think we will see 3 fighter pass next game?

I certainly hope so. If it were up to me, I would make DLC last for four or even five DLC passes like other fighting games can achieve. It's not quite one to one because Smash DLC passes include a plethora of bonus content but having an extended season of DLC feels right given that we'll inevitably have cuts from base roster who will likely return in DLC. The more lengthy the DLC era then the more balance between Veterans and New Fighters as I see it. It could be a way to have the roster overall rival Ultimate's selection or even surpass it if they wanted to play the long-game. However, that's not quite how development for DLC works and we have to factor in the budget/resources given to make the DLC and how much confidence Nintendo as a company has for Smash DLC and how long they think they can go on for while the investment is worth making. In the end, to put simply, it depends on how well Ultimate's DLC did and the internal perception to those investments whether they found it profitable enough to expand on come next game or not

 

[Louie G.]

Doesn't really justify BWD's inclusion from a gameplay perspective, but I can see the tonal argument for the character's novelty.

And in fairness, even if not always Bandana Dee himself, Waddle Dees as a species are so omnipresent within Kirby's marketing and collectively deemed to be one of its major characters. So by that standard, along with the "Helper to Hero" connotation that you mentioned, it does make a good case for BWD as their species ambassador. Although that does give me unfortunate Toad vibes to think about, lol.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I'd still like to see the original idea go full circle and have the Dixie Kong paired with Kiddy Kong. Dixie Kong could be the fast and floaty character while Kiddy Kong is slow, but strong and steadfast. They could even put a spin on both the transforming and duo fighter concepts by having the ability to transform, as well as moves that use the other character as part of your attack.

As for Bandanna Waddle Dee, I agree with the sentiment that he's not going to knock anyone's socks off. He's a very simple character with simple abilities. He does have something new to offer though, as a small, multi-jump swordfighter with a projectile isn't something we've seen before, and Super Smash Bros. historically is kind of leery on combining a decent number of those traits. If nothing else, it'll be kind of interesting to see what traits he's given to balance out his strengths.

My opinion: I just think he's neat. I would love to play as him in Super Smash Bros.

 

[Will]

“How do you justify adding Bandana Waddle Dee to Smash Bros.?”

We have a potted plant on the roster. Nothing matters anymore. Get real, dudes.

 

[Louie G.]

Since we're talking about it, I figure I should get into an idea that I've had bouncing around in my head for a bit. My preferred angle with BWD has evolved into one that emphasizes his unassuming nature as a Waddle Dee, allowing them to explore the inherent silliness of effectively a playable mook but still giving him the credibility and abilities that we've come to associate with him over the last decade.

In effect, if you've played Samurai Shodown, there is a mechanic where some attacks (either dealt by you or toward you) will force you to drop your weapon and grant you a number of physical attacks to fend off the opponent while you scramble to grab it. We've explored this somewhat, with attacks like K. Rool's Crown Boomerang, but it got me thinking about ways we can elaborate on it further in Smash Bros. And Bandana Dee, with his ability to represent both the character himself and the adorable species he is a part of, as well as the fact that he will often toss his spear, felt like a great fit for this dichotomy.

With his spear in hand, Bandana Dee possesses great range and power. He can attack swiftly, he has a number of strong KO options and likely some sort of subtle tipper mechanic. But certain attacks would provide a risk reward factor, such as his signature spear throw, which has BWD commit fully to letting the spear leave his hands and hoping he's made the smartest decision / given him enough time to grab it back after the fact. Without the spear, BWD will appear nervous and erratic. He is regulated to a few simple attacks with his stubby limbs, not unlike Olimar or SoPo, although perhaps a bit more capable. In this form we kind of get to play as a "normal" Waddle Dee, humorously tripping into opponents but still giving it his all until he can grab that spear once more.

That's kind of the mentality I've developed to give him an interesting hook, allow him to convey quite a unique range of personality and humor and I feel still stay true to the roots of the character and his role within the Kirby series. Alongside his Waddle Dee compatriots... without getting too far into the whole like, props that other Waddle Dees use thing. I'm open to the parasol but my initial instinct would be to try and make him spear exclusive.

“How do you justify adding Bandana Waddle Dee to Smash Bros.?”

I don't think anyone is saying this, thankfully.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Ah we're back on the "Dixie can't possibly be anything like Diddy" topic again?

Imma dip out.

Same with Funky and DK honestly. It both fits. It's just not the ideal version of said characters. I do think that Funky can be done justice better as a Echo Fighter than Dixie. Dixie as a semi clone? Sure. But Echo would be extremely lazy and poorly represented.

Which is honestly why I think Cranky Kong is a very overlooked pick. He doesn't have this issue at all.

But its also why I actively support all 3 Kongs. If say, we end up with a Dixie semi clone, Funky Echo and unique Cranky I consider that a huge win.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Which is honestly why I think Cranky Kong is a very overlooked pick. He doesn't have this issue at all.

Who the heck would he be an Echo Fighter of?

...

...

ooooOOOOOoooh That's the point...

 

[Ivander]

Who the heck would he be an Echo Fighter of?

Scrooge McDuck.

 

[fogbadge]

Scrooge McDuck.

woo ooo

 

[HyperSomari64]

Scrooge McDuck.

And that's how the non-Video game content discourse returns from the grave.

 

[Louie G.]

Cranky Kong has progressively become my most wanted DK character, if we were to get another. Whoever was the first to pitch him as Smash's resident "old master" archetype convinced me, he's just a character who would offer a really fresh new identity. Obviously would play into his own age, give him a few comedically placed martial arts attacks, let him perch up on his cane and all that dumb stuff. Tropical Freeze gives him a good basis but I feel like this is a character where you can let your imagination run wild with ways to expand on his potential and play further into the archetype.

 

[Gorgonzales]

I'd still like to see the original idea go full circle and have the Dixie Kong paired with Kiddy Kong. Dixie Kong could be the fast and floaty character while Kiddy Kong is slow, but strong and steadfast. They could even put a spin on both the transforming and duo fighter concepts by having the ability to transform, as well as moves that use the other character as part of your attack.

I would be okay with this. Do people find Kiddy annoying to the point to where he'd be perceived as dragging Dixie down with him? I'm not sure a huge amount of people like him, but honestly the prospect of having a heavier Kong to better contrast with Dixie would work very well in a moveset. They could have a special where the lead Kong throws the other like in DKC3, and depending on who's thrown you get a different effect (Kiddy slams down when after being thrown in DKC3 IIRC. That has very interesting potential).

Also it would be objectively hysterical to 0-to-death someone as a giant baby.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I would be okay with this. Do people find Kiddy annoying to the point to where he'd be perceived as dragging Dixie down with him? I'm not sure a huge amount of people like him, but honestly the prospect of having a heavier Kong to better contrast with Dixie would work very well in a moveset. They could have a special where the lead Kong throws the other like in DKC3, and depending on who's thrown you get a different effect (Kiddy slams down when after being thrown in DKC3 IIRC. That has very interesting potential).

Also it would be objectively hysterical to 0-to-death someone as a giant baby.

I think the general view is that it helps Kiddy more than it helps Dixie. It's part of the larger problem of Kiddy never quite landing with the fandom audience the same way the other Kongs did and the franchise itself seemingly have no interest in him after the 1997 release of Donkey Kong Land 3. If there's no other way for Dixie to get into Smash, a lot of fans will accept him, but I think even a pairing between Dixie and Funky (as odd as that would be) would hold more value to some than Kiddy making any type of grand return. I wouldn't even necessarily call him unpopular as much as he non-popular. He's like the Jarek from Mortal Kombat of Donkey Kong; fine for what he was but if he didn't come back, a decent portion of fans wouldn't be that bothered.

 

[Louie G.]

Although the Dixie and Kiddy duo could feasibly work, I don't think anyone has much interest in bringing Kiddy back from the dead. There are probably other duo characters available at this point who could pick up a similar mechanic, like one of the Splatoon idol groups (first one that comes to mind), so I think that time has kind of passed for the Kongs honestly. Particularly with Diddy already present, if Dixie were to share a number of properties with him (inevitable) I think it'd be kinda odd to have a character playable who is "Diddy Kong, sorta. But with another guy."

 

[HyperSomari64]

Kiddy Kong is such an underrated specimen.

 

[CannonStreak]

Kiddy Kong is such an underrated specimen.

I agree. I was more than neutral when I first saw him, but he us definitely underrated as a character.

 

[Will]

Do people find Kiddy annoying to the point to where he'd be perceived as dragging Dixie down with him?

I think the 90s crowd disliked him when they were younger because 1. He wasn’t DK or Diddy, but also not bringing anything new like Dixie had. 2. His bit-crushed crying gets grating when there’s no savestate/emulation and you have to restart from a checkpoint or start of the level.

For those of us born in the 21st century, unless you grew up with SNES (like me), you’d probably see Kiddy Kong and think he wasn’t all that bad. He still isn’t all that bad, he’s just a baby and can’t help that the British people thought a baby was the perfect companion for a third adventure.

 

[fogbadge]

the British people thought a baby was the perfect companion for a third adventure.

That is how British adventures tend to go

 

[ScrubReborn]

I think the general view is that it helps Kiddy more than it helps Dixie.

Yeah this basically is it. I see it from the perspective of Dixie's the one that actually earns her spot in Smash, she works fine solo and dosen't need Kiddy Kong to leech off her. I don't care one way or the other about Kiddy, but like you said, he's the only one that benefits from the team up.

 

[Ivander]

I think the 90s crowd disliked him when they were younger because 1. He wasn’t DK or Diddy, but also not bringing anything new like Dixie had. 2. His bit-crushed crying gets grating when there’s no savestate/emulation and you have to restart from a checkpoint or start of the level.

For those of us born in the 21st century, unless you grew up with SNES (like me), you’d probably see Kiddy Kong and think he wasn’t all that bad. He still isn’t all that bad, he’s just a baby and can’t help that the British people thought a baby was the perfect companion for a third adventure.

Let's be really honest. For some unfathomable reason, there was a lot of baby/kids obsession in the 80s/90s where suddenly, a lot of popular series suddenly got a show where all the characters suddenly became kids or even babies. The Muppets, Looney Toons, Tom & Jerry, Scooby-Doo, even Justice League. It's not a fault with the British. It's just something bizarre that media just got obsessed with for some reason.

Now granted, that doesn't mean all of those shows were bad. Some of them were surprisingly good. But it's like, why the obsession all of the sudden?

 

[Guynamednelson]

Looney Toons

Tiny Toon Adventures wasn't about baby versions of the Looney Tunes, it was about their successors-in-training.

That said Baby Looney Tunes was eventually a thing

 

[Ivander]

Tiny Toon Adventures wasn't about baby versions of the Looney Tunes, it was about their successors-in-training.

That said Baby Looney Tunes was eventually a thing

The latter was what I was talking about, not Tiny Toon Adventures.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

As noted, the issues with Kiddy basically came down to three things:

-His design was a bit meh in comparison to the well-received ones of DK, Diddy, & Dixie
-Baby characters are/were a hard sell to make cool/exciting to an audience
-He felt a bit redundant as the big contrast to Dixie when many felt DK should have been the playable partner in DKC3

Those were the significant factors at the time, though I think these days Kiddy just is more ignored than actively disliked.