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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

Oracle Link

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I never had an Issue with "anime swordsman" Afterall since lotr the sword is the main Character Weapon! And obviously you want to include main characters first!
I mean I like Link, Kirbys Sword Ability and all my Main Characters have some sort of sword!

I think the issue lies in Fire Emblem having to many (similar) Characters and for pythra the issue is one its two characters at once and secondly rex wasnt included!
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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I never had an Issue with "anime swordsman" Afterall since lotr the sword is the main Character Weapon! And obviously you want to include main characters first!
I mean I like Link, Kirbys Sword Ability and all my Main Characters have some sort of sword!

I think the issue lies in Fire Emblem having to many (similar) Characters and for pythra the issue is one its two characters at once and secondly rex wasnt included!
Yeah the whole beef started out as "Ew Corrin and ew Fire Emblem", and mutated slightly to include other swordfighters that people didn't like. I'm fairly certain that's all it really is.
 

Opossum

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She/He is the origin of the hate to "anime sword fighter".
This literally isn't true. People were complaining about "too many swords" since the post-Brawl days at the very latest. The "anime" bit got added to it once Robin got in, and grew more when Shulk got in.

Corrin is easily the specific anime swordsman that got the most flack that hasn't died down in the slightest, but they were FAR from the first.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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This literally isn't true. People were complaining about "too many swords" since the post-Brawl days at the very latest. The "anime" bit got added to it once Robin got in, and grew more when Shulk got in.

Corrin is easily the specific anime swordsman that got the most flack that hasn't died down in the slightest, but they were FAR from the first.
I'll take your word for it since I wasn't there at the time, but that sounds really dumb since there were only 5 sword wielding characters at the time. 6 if we're stretching things with Pit.
 

Opossum

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I'll take your word for it since I wasn't there at the time, but that sounds really dumb since there were only 5 sword wielding characters at the time. 6 if we're stretching things with Pit.
This was in an era where people were unironically saying that Ike and Marth were too similar. Sword hate runs deep in the fandom's history.
 

BuckleyTim

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"There are too many sword-wielding anime guys!": Flawed argument, refuted as soon as a pop culture character from japan that has a sword is added to the game

"Fire Emblem and Xenoblade are LAME!": Flawless argument, has no ability to be refuted no matter how hard fans try

People have denied the effective simple messaging for fear that it's too crass for FAR too long:4pacman:
 

Opossum

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"There are too many sword-wielding anime guys!": Flawed argument, refuted as soon as a pop culture character from japan that has a sword is added to the game

"Fire Emblem and Xenoblade are LAME!": Flawless argument, has no ability to be refuted no matter how hard fans try

People have denied the effective simple messaging for fear that it's too crass for FAR too long:4pacman:
Unironically it really does come down to people's refusal to be honest about how they feel instead of just hiding those feelings behind a veil of what they think is "objectivity" lol.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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This was in an era where people were unironically saying that Ike and Marth were too similar. Sword hate runs deep in the fandom's history.
OK that actually makes sense, 'cuz like:
:link2: Projectile swordfighter
:toonlink: Projectile fighter who happens to have a sword
:marth: Archetypal swordfighter
:ike: Heavy swordfighter
:metaknight: I don't even know what's going on with this character

Basically the same thing!:gw:


No but when you put it that way I really shouldn't underestimate the silliness of people on the internet.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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Something that's also worth noting is that non-Pokemon first party RPG's (where many of the "anime swordsman" were coming from) took a while to effectively gain bigger audiences in the West and grow beyond niche status in the broader Nintendo paradigm. They got some real traction on the DS and 3DS but I'd argue in some ways it wasn't until the Switch (when the home and portable markets were merged) for them to really be fully cemented among various generations of fans.

In that sense whether fans were consciously aware of it or not, for many previous Smash titles, Fire Emblem characters felt like intrusions to what the Nintendo crossover and the proper image of the company was supposed to be, even though FE was a long time IP dating back to the NES.
 
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HyperSomari64

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Something that's also worth noting is that non-Pokemon first party RPG's (where many of the "anime swordsman" were coming from) took a while to effectively gain bigger audiences in the West and grow beyond niche status in the broader Nintendo paradigm. They got some real traction on the DS and 3DS but I'd argue in some ways it wasn't until the Switch (when the home and portable markets were merged) for them to really be fully cemented among various generations of fans.

In that sense whether fans were consciously aware of it or not, for many previous Smash titles, Fire Emblem characters felt like intrusions to what the Nintendo crossover and the proper image of the company was supposed to be, even though FE was a long time IP dating back to the NES.
If Pokémon (and by extension, EarthBound) is a JRPG, by that logic Pikachu (and Ness) are actually considered "JRPGBro McSwordDude".

Very sad, isn't it. :4pacman:
 
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BritishGuy54

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Re: Anime Swordfighters

Overhated by a prominent vocal minority of the fandom, likely by the casual crowd. RPGs are also just traditionally more niche than other genres.

I do think having a sword isn’t the drawback a lot of the Smash fandom seems to think it is. It’s a tool, one that can have a lot of different effects, be slow and heavy or quick and nimble, coupled with different movement options.

Swordfighters are so prominent in Smash mainly because of Fire Emblem using a different cast every game or so, rarely revisiting the main cast of different games.

Fire Emblem also shot itself in the foot when you have Chrom, a clone of a clone who already had a clone. And Corrin, who did not come at the right time. I think Corrin would have had better reception if we didn’t get Roy in Smash 4 DLC as well.

This hate snowballed into Smash Ultimate, where it morphed into disdain for the anime style, swordfighters, and even first-party characters in general.

But in general, I think swordfighters are overhated, and if people think they’re uncreative, I don’t know how they’d react to new characters from Animal Crossing, Pikmin, or even a decision to lazily copy-paste Sonic’s Moveset onto Shadow or Tails.

In short, give each character a chance. Just because you played one swordfighter doesn’t mean you’ve played all of them. They all play differently, even just slightly in cases of echo fighters.

Some people seem to dislike characters that are vaguely similar. But sometimes, it’s the little things that make things feel right.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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If Pokémon (and by extension, EarthBound) is a JRPG, by that logic Pikachu and Ness are actually considered "JRPGBro McSwordDude".
Very sad, isn't it.
In fairness Shigesato Itoi was planning to make Mother 4 feature Ness with a sword and include a monologue about how in contrast to his school classmates he "studied the blade" but he couldn't make the concept work and thus the series ended at 3.
 
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Oracle Link

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You know what pisses me off about FE?
8 Characters and all of them are swordwielders (No Byleth doesnt really count) and All of them are protagonists!
Atleast throw in a singular villain for the rest of the 8! Characters to fight!

Fe is the only franchise over 3 Characters to have no antagonist (atleast pokemon has mewtwo and kirby has his rivals) at all!
Thats pretty Dumb TBH!

I really think chrom should have been black knight! Atleast that guy looks diffrent has a cool set of armour and is a antogonist!
Yes he wouldnt work as an echo but still!

Im saying that as someone who has never played Fe but likes some decent villain/ antagonist rep in smash! And Cool armoured knights!
 

ninjahmos

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The next Rare character should be Joanna Dark imo.
But actually it should be Dixie Kong.

I'd be very glad just to keep Banjo around 🙏
Joanna Dark would be pretty fun (especially since she's probably the closest we'd get to James Bond in Smash), but I still think the next Rare character should be either Jago or Fulgore.
 
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Oracle Link

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If "Toy" Link gets into the next smash (as replacement or Costume for toon Link) which sword should he use?

1721490290497.png
The Brown Links awekning L-1 Sword?
1721490353914.png
The Blue Echoes of widom sword?
1721490419932.png
The Koholint Sword (l-2 Linksawekning)
Wooden Sword?
Noble/ White Sword?
The Biggoron Sword?
Or just go with a Chibi Master sword?

He used all of these Weapons so which one would rep him the best or which one do you think looks best?

I definitly think he would fit nicely into smash at the very least he would be a fun alt for toon link just like alph is for olimar!

Ah yes and im personnaly for the echoes of wisdom sword because it looks cool!
 
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jamesster445

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People were mad at Hero? I don't remember but I think I joined speculation right after his reveal...
There was a time when Smash twitter dogged on the idea of Erdrick being in Smash so much, that at some point they started to receive clap back from Japanese Smash Twitter. When I tell you the animosity for Erdrick/Hero was real, believe it.

OK, here's a hypothetical question.

If Terry makes it into the next game, and if we get a second SNK rep that isn't from King of Fighters, Fatal Fury or Art of Fighting, what are the chances it may either be Haohmaru or Nakoruru from Samurai Shodown or a Metal Slug character (Marco w/ Tarma, Eri and Fio as alts or the titular tank itself)?
It's probably Rock Howard. He's the current protagonist of Fatal Fury aka Terry's successor, is relatively popular and is getting a new game.
I personally want Geese.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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Fe is the only franchise over 3 Characters to have no antagonist (atleast pokemon has mewtwo and kirby has his rivals) at all!
It does get a bit muddy for some:
  • King Dedede was unambiguously a villain, but he's not anymore.
  • Dark Pit was an antagonist kinda? He certainly didn't end the game as one.
  • Xenoblade Chronicles unambiguously joins Fire Emblem in this club since Pyra/Mythra are counted sepparately, and it will likely stay that way.
 

osby

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You know what pisses me off about FE?
8 Characters and all of them are swordwielders (No Byleth doesnt really count) and All of them are protagonists!
Atleast throw in a singular villain for the rest of the 8! Characters to fight!

Fe is the only franchise over 3 Characters to have no antagonist (atleast pokemon has mewtwo and kirby has his rivals) at all!
Thats pretty Dumb TBH!

I really think chrom should have been black knight! Atleast that guy looks diffrent has a cool set of armour and is a antogonist!
Yes he wouldnt work as an echo but still!

Im saying that as someone who has never played Fe but likes some decent villain/ antagonist rep in smash! And Cool armoured knights!
Honestly, I never understood why there should be a reserved spot for villains for every big franchise.

I don't mind bad guys but so many people act like Smash is a failure of a crossover if it doesn't meet an arbitrary quota of them.
 

Perkilator

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Honestly, I never understood why there should be a reserved spot for villains for every big franchise.

I don't mind bad guys but so many people act like Smash is a failure of a crossover if it doesn't meet an arbitrary quota of them.
I feel like the Smash fan base in general just sets a bunch of quotas in their head and get mad if they’re not met.
 

Hadokeyblade

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Anti-anime swordsman rhetoric has been in the Smash fandom for a long time. However, Corrin’s reveal was probably the moment where the discourse metamorphized into it’s modern state.
Which is funny because Corrin easily has the coolest sword
 

dezeray112

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OK, here's a hypothetical question.

If Terry makes it into the next game, and if we get a second SNK rep that isn't from King of Fighters, Fatal Fury or Art of Fighting, what are the chances it may either be Haohmaru or Nakoruru from Samurai Shodown or a Metal Slug character (Marco w/ Tarma, Eri and Fio as alts or the titular tank itself)?
Could see either Nakoruru (Samurai Shodown), Marco Rossi (Metal Slug) or maybe Janne (from World Heroes?)
 

Gengar84

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The next Rare character should be Joanna Dark imo.
But actually it should be Dixie Kong.

I'd be very glad just to keep Banjo around 🙏
Joanna makes a lot of sense right now since there’s a Perfect Dark sequel currently in development. I’d personally prefer the Battletoads or a Killer Instinct character first but Joanna Dark is next after them. I had a ton of fun with the original N64 Perfect Dark and it’s one of the very few First Person Shooters I really got into. There’s also a ton of really interesting guns and mechanics in that game that could be cool for Smash.
 

Louie G.

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Honestly, I never understood why there should be a reserved spot for villains for every big franchise.

I don't mind bad guys but so many people act like Smash is a failure of a crossover if it doesn't meet an arbitrary quota of them.
I agree on principle, although I imagine why they are so popular is because of the character dynamics that ensue. For a lot of people Smash functions at least partially as a toy box, it's always fun to have new bad guys around for the good guys to tussle with. So I get it to an extent, but I think at times it can feel arbitrary - no offense to Kamek, but "Yoshi needs his villain" was never a very convincing argument for example.

In this case, when you have as many characters as Fire Emblem does, I think a more sinister presence would have been welcome to help stir the pot. The ever-changing cast as well as the way Smash seems to favor representing these games is rarely in their favor, but for one I'd rather have like Edelgard than Byleth. And Black Knight is just kinda cool independent from the fact.

Was always funny for me to see people peddle the narrative of Ultimate's "focus on villains" when yes, I think we got the most antagonistic newcomers out of any game, but it was still only like 4-5 characters out of however many we got by the end. Although I recall this quote from Sakurai after adding Piranha Plant, so I guess it's something that he takes into account a little bit too.
If we don’t have these types of fighters, and we only had typical 'hero/heroine' type fighters in the lineup, there’s not much difference. It’s probably not very interesting. Correct?
 
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Noipoi

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I agree on principle, although I imagine why they are so popular is because of the character dynamics that ensue. For a lot of people Smash functions at least partially as a toy box, it's always fun to have new bad guys around for the good guys to tussle with. So I get it to an extent, but I think at times it can feel arbitrary - no offense to Kamek, but "Yoshi needs his villain" was never a very convincing argument for example.

In this case, when you have as many characters as Fire Emblem does, I think a more sinister presence would have been welcome to help stir the pot. The ever-changing cast as well as the way Smash seems to favor representing these games is rarely in their favor, but for one I'd rather have like Edelgard than Byleth. And Black Knight is just kinda cool independent from the fact.

Was always funny for me to see people peddle the narrative of Ultimate's "focus on villains" when yes, I think we got the most antagonistic newcomers out of any game, but it was still only like 4-5 characters out of however many we got by the end. Although I recall this quote from Sakurai after adding Piranha Plant, so it's something that he takes into account a little bit too.
Ultimate’s “focus on villains” was pure coincidence.

It just so happened that half of the fandom’s most requested characters were antagonists.
 

toonito

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If "Toy" Link gets into the next smash (as replacement or Costume for toon Link) which sword should he use?

View attachment 392618The Brown Links awekning L-1 Sword?
View attachment 392619The Blue Echoes of widom sword?
View attachment 392620 The Koholint Sword (l-2 Linksawekning)
Wooden Sword?
Noble/ White Sword?
The Biggoron Sword?
Or just go with a Chibi Master sword?

He used all of these Weapons so which one would rep him the best or which one do you think looks best?

I definitly think he would fit nicely into smash at the very least he would be a fun alt for toon link just like alph is for olimar!

Ah yes and im personnaly for the echoes of wisdom sword because it looks cool!
i'd go with Blue Echoes of Wisdom

and i'm increasingly coming around on Toy Link replacing Toon Link for Smash 6. I could be wrong but I dont think Young Link is returning. Link is my favorite character but 3 Links I admit is a bit much.

My ideal LOZ roster for Smash would be Link, Toy Link, Sheik, Zelda, Ganondorf, Impa (AOC version)
 

Sucumbio

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So part of my crazy head canon crackpot theory involves the prize spirits from tournaments... Especially these which were achieved lately ...

Yellow Pikmin
Evil Ryu
Andross
Landoras Therian Form
Noah & Mio
Ring Fit Trainees

I point to the last two as kinda obv what the implications are that they'll be newcomers but I'm more interested in the first 4 especially Evil Ryu c:
 

jamesster445

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Honestly, I never understood why there should be a reserved spot for villains for every big franchise.

I don't mind bad guys but so many people act like Smash is a failure of a crossover if it doesn't meet an arbitrary quota of them.
Because it'd be fun. Not to mention Smash (and other fighting games) is one of the few opportunities where villains get to be freely playable. How many games really let you play as Ganondorf or Ridley. Even Sephiroth was only playable in Dissidia and Smash (I have not played or seen anything of Rebirth).
 

Louie G.

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re: "Anime swordsmen"

These characters rarely cater to me directly, because as someone who barely has time to play games to begin with lately... I just don't have a lot of attachment to characters from long RPGs and tactics games. There are several of these games I want to play eventually, and certainly characters from them that I think are cool in their own right, but my sentiment toward these characters was never malice and typically indifference at worst. Plenty of them have won me over regardless - Hero and Sephiroth are fantastic, Pyra / Mythra is my favorite implementation of a stance change mechanic thus far. And I'm not crazy about their inclusion on paper, but I quite like the way Corrin fights.

I did silently feel a bit burnt at how much emphasis was put on RPGs for a bit, and the way people responded to skepticism of this with assumptions like RPGs are the only genre that Japan gives a crap about. With several of the kinds of games I like to play absent from Smash altogether, like puzzle and rhythm games, my affinity for quirky, short arcade style games wasn't rewarded. I think it's understandable to be a little disappointed if they're putting a great amount of eggs into a basket that you just can't carry right now. Although a lot of people acted very immature about it, and they still do.

With that out of the way, nearly every one added in Smash feels like it has a reason to be there. It's understandable that swords are the most prevalent weapon type in Smash because there are clearly the most popular choice for video game protagonists at large. Being a crossover, Smash just kind of has to abide by that fact. Depending on who you ask this is kind of a shortcoming of the formula, but for how many characters fall into this realm... the ways Smash still continues to find new things to do with them is impressive.

And there's plenty of untapped potential still. Unless you count Pit, we don't have a dual wielder. We don't have a samurai, our only katana user is Sephiroth. Someone like Isaac infuses a swordie kit with dynamic magic powers and earthbending. We'll probably never hear the end of these arguments but if you can tune them out, we've got a lot of fresh takes on the basic concept that have yet to be explored.
 
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