Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[ninjahmos]

Evil Ryu

I'd love to be able to use Shun Goku Satsu (Raging Demon) in Smash…but our best bet for that to happen may be Akuma.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

no offense to Kamek, but "Yoshi needs his villain" was never a very convincing argument for example.

To be fair, he already has his villain twice over.

But yeah, in pretty much all cases "Protagonist" and "Villain" are really substitutes for other, proper arguments to justify a character's inclusion. If you use them exclusively, you're probably missing the point of why that matters, or are just thinking in terms of short-hand.

 

[Zerp]

Landoras Therian Form

LANDO T MENTIONED!!!! As a Smogonite it is my duty to pray to the Genie of Healthy Meta. May the GOAT save us all from Steve Minecraft next game. /s

Really though as unlikely as it'd be I'd love Landorus Therian lol. Like, not the most iconic mon, sure. But 1. it's featured so much in comp play (both VGC and OU) that basically the whole fanbase knows him 2. has a ton of things that'd be unique for a moveset + he's a quadruped and 3. I just plain like him a lot. I'd love to see how they'd try implementing stealth rock lol.

So part of my crazy head canon crackpot theory involves the prize spirits from tournaments... Especially these which were achieved lately ...

Yellow Pikmin
Evil Ryu
Andross
Landoras Therian Form
Noah & Mio
Ring Fit Trainees

I point to the last two as kinda obv what the implications are that they'll be newcomers but I'm more interested in the first 4 especially Evil Ryu c:

I can def see the last two happening, the combination of Noah/Mio and Ring Fit feels like such a smash thing that you may be right, perhaps it's a sign. First four though not so much lol.

 

[Sucumbio]

I can def see the last two happening, the combination of Noah/Mio and Ring Fit feels like such a smash thing that you may be right, perhaps it's a sign. First four though not so much lol.

Yep that's what made me pay attention cause they were earned in that order starting at the bottom. Buuuut I only came in 1st the first 2 times! So maybe they just point to their series which is cool and I also accept the idea that it could be cross connected marketing. I mean Star Fox especially needs all the flippin reminders we can bear.

You hearing this Nintendo!? Star Fox!!!!!

 

[SpecterFlower]

You kind of make it sound like third party anime swordsmen are more popular than Nintendo ones. I understand that is not what you are trying to get at. Feel free to post an example with a popular Nintendo anime swordsman, though honestly, you don’t have to here.

They are
They are more exciting g and the fanbase gets hyped when it’s crossed over

even if the best character I ball of fiction got added to smash , and she’s a fire emblem character then she is not getting much hype purely becuase she is the 9th fire emblem

Now if we get 2B that’s the first nier

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Not everything is a hint, guys.

 

[Arcanir]

OK that actually makes sense, 'cuz like:
Projectile swordfighter
Projectile fighter who happens to have a sword
Archetypal swordfighter
Heavy swordfighter
I don't even know what's going on with this character

Basically the same thing!


No but when you put it that way I really shouldn't underestimate the silliness of people on the internet.

There was a time where people insisted Lucario was a clone for sharing one move and a body type with Mewtwo, to the point of even saying we couldn't have both in the same game.

Fans can be really silly.

I agree on principle, although I imagine why they are so popular is because of the character dynamics that ensue. For a lot of people Smash functions at least partially as a toy box, it's always fun to have new bad guys around for the good guys to tussle with. So I get it to an extent, but I think at times it can feel arbitrary - no offense to Kamek, but "Yoshi needs his villain" was never a very convincing argument for example.

In this case, when you have as many characters as Fire Emblem does, I think a more sinister presence would have been welcome to help stir the pot. The ever-changing cast as well as the way Smash seems to favor representing these games is rarely in their favor, but for one I'd rather have like Edelgard than Byleth. And Black Knight is just kinda cool independent from the fact.

Yeah, I think that sometimes characters get sold a bit too much on that one aspect, and that kind of hurts them since it makes them feel too defined by it when discussion happens around them.

Kamek would be a fun character to his credit, a mage character with all of his abilities would be very interesting to see implemented. However, a lot of fans already dismiss the idea of another Yoshi character because they think it doesn't need one, so trying to sell him on the merit instead that it needs its villain doesn't really work to convince others.

Your Edelgard/Black Knight example are good comparisons here as despite being from a frannchise considered overrepresented, you still have people consider them because they have a lot of factors that win people over on top of their villainy rather than just because of it. Simlarly, you still see a lot of people ask for Raven Beak or EMMI as while Metroid is considered fine as it is aside from some potential moveset updates, you still see fans asking for them because they left such a strong impression that many want to see them that people think they'd be great additions to have for the game.

 

[ninjahmos]

If Joanna Dark ever gets into Smash, they should give her a remix of this:

 

[SharkLord]

Some spears or axes would be neat, but in the end Smash isn't really a series that focuses on weapon diversity. Most fighters who don't have a sword fight with their hands and feet, oftentimes sharing similar movements like the flipkick up-air or the down-air stomp. Which I won't use as an indictment, because there's only so many distinct attacks you can make. When you have 89 fighters, there's bound to be some overlap.

After that set, most other fighters are some cobination of projectiles, magic users, and Random Bullcrap Go. In the end, those are the most common fighting styles you'll see in video games (Aside from Random Bullcrap Go, which is usually given to guys like Villager or Pac-Man who don't have as many distinct attacks in their home games). The reason we don't have many spears or axes is because not as many notable characters use spears and axes in video games. Those are most likely to pop up in RPGs, but most RPGs have rotating casts that are usually lead by a swordfighter, so most RPG representation is through swordfighters.

Honestly? I don't mind it too much. Half of every culture in the world holds swords in high esteem; Even if they don't have much metalworking, people will stick sharp things to clubs and call it a day. Spears and bows are probably more common overall, but swords just have that cool factor that propels them to the forefront. I do think it'd be neat if Fire Emblem covered the weapon triangle with their fighters (Beyond Byleth, who doesn't really get to use any weapon that much), but that's a series-specific gripe, not for swords in general. Honestly I like swords, so I just don't have many complaints about them.

 

[dream1ng]

Not everything is a hint, guys.

Everything is a hint

 

[Zerp]

But yeah, in pretty much all cases "Protagonist" and "Villain" are really substitutes for other, proper arguments to justify a character's inclusion. If you use them exclusively, you're probably missing the point of why that matters, or are just thinking in terms of short-hand.

Yeah I agree. I don't think characters like Dark Matter and Kamek are appealing because they're big bads of Kirby and Yoshi. I think they're appealing because those two are interesting characters in their respective IPs and absolutely can be made into very unique fighters lol. I don't understand why people keep on boiling down the reasoning for a character they want to just be "Hero" or "Villain" when there's like ten bajillion other reasons to want them you can use instead.

Not everything is a hint, guys.

You fool, that's just what Big Nintendo wants us to think! Next presentation I will be studying the chair colors and nobody can stop me!!!1!

 

[Diddy Kong]

The anime swordsman thing was funny, cause every character got blasted for it, except Cloud and Sephiroth, who actually have an anime. And their designs are very anime-like too.

Most of it is just general dislike for Fire Emblem too. Which is sad. It's an amazing franchise and was introduced in the West due to Smash.

 

[Garteam]

I went to another Japanese arcade yesterday, this time it was a smaller, hole-in-the wall place that exclusively used candy cabinets rather than a big chain like Gigo or Taito. This place also seemed to be more geared towards local audiences rather than those chains, which seem to be partially be aimed at tourists as a secondary demographic.

This one definitely trended towards Capcom. It had multiple versions of SFII, Vampire Saviour, Marvel Super Heroes vs. Street Fighter, and Capcom vs. SNK 2. They even had posters for Rival Schools and Red Earth on the wall, but no corresponding cabinets. SNK also got a lot of love, with the arcade having Metal Slugs 3 and X, SamSho 2, AoF1, Fatal Fury Special, and KoF ‘98. Tekken 5 Dark Resurrection was the only fighting game not from either of those two companies.

I missed a lot of the discussion regarding Nakoruru yesterday, but my experience in Japan has basically solidified that, IMO, she’s the next fighting game character from a new IP (well, new playable IP). 90’s Capcom and SNK, along with Tekken and VF, are synonymous with fighting games in a way that even bigger IPs like Guilty Gear, Soul Calibur, and DoA can’t seem to compete with. I also think there’s a really solid case to be made for Morrigan, given how much legacy Capcom continues to have and how Darkstalkers was a pivotal part of that legacy. Only problem is Darkstalkers inactivity and needing compete against other Capcom characters.

I also think Metal Slug is a lot more likely than people may initially think just due to SNK’s massive arcade influence. Given how generous SNK was with Terry, I don’t think getting both Nakoruru and Marco is out of the question, especially when the otherwise occupy completely different niches.

Also, Parodius is ****ing great. I played quite a few space shooters yesterday and it was my favourite. I remember someone suggesting Tako awhile back and I am fully on the Tako train.

 

[dream1ng]

I went to another Japanese arcade yesterday, this time it was a smaller, hole-in-the wall place that exclusively used candy cabinets rather than a big chain like Gigo or Taito. This place also seemed to be more geared towards local audiences rather than those chains, which seem to be partially be aimed at tourists as a secondary demographic.

This one definitely trended towards Capcom. It had multiple versions of SFII, Vampire Saviour, Marvel Super Heroes vs. Street Fighter, and Capcom vs. SNK 2. They even had posters for Rival Schools and Red Earth on the wall, but no corresponding cabinets. SNK also got a lot of love, with the arcade having Metal Slugs 3 and X, SamSho 2, AoF1, Fatal Fury Special, and KoF ‘98. Tekken 5 Dark Resurrection was the only fighting game not from either of those two companies.

I missed a lot of the discussion regarding Nakoruru yesterday, but my experience in Japan has basically solidified that, IMO, she’s the next fighting game character from a new IP (well, new playable IP). 90’s Capcom and SNK, along with Tekken and VF, are synonymous with fighting games in a way that even bigger IPs like Guilty Gear, Soul Calibur, and DoA can’t seem to compete with. I also think there’s a really solid case to be made for Morrigan, given how much legacy Capcom continues to have and how Darkstalkers was a pivotal part of that legacy. Only problem is Darkstalkers inactivity and needing compete against other Capcom characters.

I also think Metal Slug is a lot more likely than people may initially think just due to SNK’s massive arcade influence. Given how generous SNK was with Terry, I don’t think getting both Nakoruru and Marco is out of the question, especially when the otherwise occupy completely different niches.

Also, Parodius is ****ing great. I played quite a few space shooters yesterday and it was my favourite. I remember someone suggesting Tako awhile back and I am fully on the Tako train.

You may want to keep in mind that some of these arcades specifically cater to the 90s audience, and are going to skew towards series which had greater prominence in arcades during that time, like SamSho and Darkstalkers, and away from those which are newer and had greater prominence on consoles, like Guilty Gear.

 

[DKing]

Metal Slug

Still sad we didn't at least get a metal slug mii costume.

 

[Louie G.]

You may want to keep in mind that some of these arcades specifically cater to the 90s audience, and are going to skew towards series which had greater prominence in arcades during that time, like SamSho and Darkstalkers, and away from those which are newer and had greater prominence on consoles, like Guilty Gear.

On the other hand, Sakurai himself is a big classic arcade buff and those base game third party picks tend to skew in the direction of old school legacy characters. So it may be valuable to be plugged into what is especially notable out there in the nostalgic arcade gaming sphere. That's kind of my big ace in the hole when talking about Arle and Puyo Puyo.

Speaking of which Garteam , how much Puyo stuff have you seen out there? I would have assumed Tsuu might pop up in that arcade at least.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

The funny thing is that for all the occasional accusations of Japanese audience bias in fighter selection via JRPG characters, if Nintendo and Sakurai were really inclined to cater to that market, they'd probably go much bigger on elements from classic and semi-contemporary arcade titles than they would role playing games. That former scene endured much longer than in either North America or Europe and there's reverence towards it that even with semi-revival via chains like Dave & Busters, much of the Western gaming culture often lacks.

Heck Xevious only popping up as part of Pac-Man's taunt and the Special Flag is a sign of cultural restraint in references given how beloved that game is back home.

 

[Garteam]

On the other hand, Sakurai himself is a big classic arcade buff and those base game third party picks tend to skew in the direction of old school legacy characters. So it may be valuable to be plugged into what is especially notable out there in the nostalgic arcade gaming sphere. That's kind of my big ace in the hole when talking about Arle and Puyo Puyo.

Speaking of which Garteam , how much Puyo stuff have you seen out there? I would have assumed Tsuu might pop up in that arcade at least.

Puyo Puyo 2 seems to be a staple of every arcade I’ve went into. I don’t think I’ve seen an arcade without at least one candy cabinet running it. It’s often paired with Tetris and/or Columns in a cabinet that lets you pick multiple games.

 

[Nickthebrick1]

Hey guys do you think of the recent controversies with Assassins Creed Shadows we may not be seeing a character from that franchise?

 

[Louie G.]

Hey guys do you think of the recent controversies with Assassins Creed Shadows we may not be seeing a character from that franchise?

It wouldn't influence the decision at all. Most of that controversy is led by "anti-woke" grifters, and the general public as well as Nintendo / Ubisoft are probably unconcerned with them. Even if this specific game was an issue, which it's likely not, there's no baggage with the rest of the franchise.

Unless we're talking the anti-consumer practices, but that's just Ubisoft. They always kinda sucked and this game probably isn't the straw that broke the camel's back. Maybe that has come to an apex here but much of the other drama surrounding this game that I've heard up to this point just sounds like racism.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Hey guys do you think of the recent controversies with Assassins Creed Shadows we may not be seeing a character from that franchise?

Without going into the recent game's status (because that's quite frankly a discussion far beyond a SSB thread), I think an Ezio could reasonably get into the next Smash without too much controversy. If AC was considered a to be an issue and the character worked for Nintendo/Sakurai, a Rayman inclusion could work as an Ubisoft fighter far enough removed from any Assassin's Creed minefield.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Unironically it really does come down to people's refusal to be honest about how they feel instead of just hiding those feelings behind a veil of what they think is "objectivity" lol.

I don't know. To be perfectly honest, Xenoblade 1 is one of my GOATs but I couldn't care less about Shulk in Smash. Even though I only played through Xenoblade because Shulk and his stage looked cool.
Complex feelings...

But yeah I just feel like cartoony characters fit Smash a lot more.

 

[Louie G.]

If AC was considered a to be an issue and the character worked for Nintendo/Sakurai, a Rayman inclusion could work as an Ubisoft fighter far enough removed from any Assassin's Creed minefield.

I would be kind of shocked if Ubisoft debuted with a character who wasn't Rayman anyway. Assassin's Creed is absolutely bigger worldwide, but the likes of Mega Man or Banjo & Kazooie have set a precedent of vocal fan favorites / mascots getting first dibs over the big shots. It helps that Ubisoft specifically seems motivated for Rayman to be in Smash, sending Sakurai models in Smash 4 and whatnot. They haven't been especially coy about it.

I think Rayman is mostly hindered by his lack of presence overseas, but with such effort from his parent company as well as direct ties to Nintendo via publishing Rayman Legends overseas and most recently physically appearing in a "Mario" game... He just feels like the sensible choice. Could Rayman and Ezio both get in? Of course - if anything, that aforementioned pattern seems to encourage this more than not. Maybe the disparity between Assassin's Creed and Rayman is perceived as so large that it might break the cycle that Mega Man / Ryu or Banjo / Steve have perpetuated. But I would imagine the 10+ years of vocal fan support would get him somewhere, if Ubisoft collaboration was on the table.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

There would be something darkly amusing in Rayman getting chosen and Sakurai saying the key element that got him in was the realization the Smash team could utilize Rabbids as part of his moveset.

Perhaps the ultimate monkey's paw wish for a certain subsection of Rayman fans.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Joanna Dark would be pretty fun (especially since she's probably the closest we'd get to James Bond in Smash), but I still think the next Rare character should be either Jago or Fulgore.

Nah. Rash/Zitz.

Honestly, I never understood why there should be a reserved spot for villains for every big franchise.

Because after the recurring protagonist, the recurring villain is usually the next most recognizable and iconic character from a franchise.

And also because having a bunch of badguys teaming up is always fun in a crossover game.

If Marco shows up in a Smash bros game i would main him instantly.

Love these games.

If we get a Metal Slug character, I want it to be the SV-001 Metal Slug itself. With Marco/Tarma/Eri and Fio driving it in a Bowser Jr.-like situation.

 

[Perkilator]

Y’know speaking of Rayman:

Still crazy how much Smash Bros. potential Rayman was given in Sparks of Hope alone.

You could build a moveset just from this DLC and he'd still have one of the most fun and unique movesets in Smash 💪 pic.twitter.com/toKVKEtsBV

— Rayman for Smash Together (@RaymanForSmash) July 20, 2024

 

[Garteam]

You may want to keep in mind that some of these arcades specifically cater to the 90s audience, and are going to skew towards series which had greater prominence in arcades during that time, like SamSho and Darkstalkers, and away from those which are newer and had greater prominence on consoles, like Guilty Gear.

I’d agree with this take if more modern arcades, like the various Taito and GiGo entertainment centres, didn’t also follow this trend.

For example, the most arcade I went to with the most modern fighting games was the Taito Centre in Denden Town in Osaka, which had multiple SFIV cabinets, multiple SFVI cabinets, two Tekken 7 cabinets, a Blazeblue cabinet, and a multi cabinet that ran both Melty Blood and Under Night. For retro games, it had multiple Street Fighter II cabinets, King of Fighters ‘98, JoJo: HftF, and MvC2, so the old and new games were basically at parity.

Taito Arcades are pretty squarely aimed at big tent audiences and try to incentivize new blood to come in with advertisements and a general showmanship that the smaller fish don’t have. However, 18-24 year-old Joe Six-Pack generally isn’t coming in for fighters, he’s coming in for the rhythm games, Gundam sims, and especially the crane games (which seem to be the most popular attractions by far). I think of the one reasons Tekken 7 is the most popular fighter among modern audiences in Japanese arcades is the Namco Passport system, which allows people from different arcades to find matches with another arcade if there is no one willing to play with you in your arcade. You can often find someone to play with you in person, but there’s no guarantee of that and this system really helps with the downtime.

I think the closest equivalent to how Japan seems to view fighting games is how the West views platformers. Both are still semi-popular genres and they get new regular releases. However, they’re primarily associated with a time in the past where they were massive and most of the biggest new releases continue to use IPs from when the genre was at its peak in popularity.

 

[dream1ng]

On the other hand, Sakurai himself is a big classic arcade buff and those base game third party picks tend to skew in the direction of old school legacy characters. So it may be valuable to be plugged into what is especially notable out there in the nostalgic arcade gaming sphere. That's kind of my big ace in the hole when talking about Arle and Puyo Puyo.

Speaking of which Garteam , how much Puyo stuff have you seen out there? I would have assumed Tsuu might pop up in that arcade at least.

I mean of the base game third-party picks, three out of five were due in part to demand. The other two, Snake and Pac-Man, were situations that wouldn't really apply to the characters we're talking about.

None were picked due to being old school legacy characters. Sonic, Mega Man and Simon had as much popularity as they did due to their relationship and history with Nintendo, which only stopped being as much of a popularity factor during the last game.

For Mega Man and Simon it started in the old school days, but part of its continuation into at least the 00s is likely what propelled them higher than old school characters with more tenuous ties.

Yeah Sakurai is an arcade buff, as well as being a buff of... basically all games (I mean he's put hours and hours and hours into Minecraft), but one, he's not the only one who calls the shots, two, we already have received a character who would appeal to a very very similar audience as Nakoruru, three, SamSho really isn't that big, even if it has a diehard audience, with a sizeable audience being very much a benefit for candidates, especially those who lack fanbase demand, and four, Sakurai is not averse to taking from several different time periods - if indeed he was even the one choosing. Which he claims to not be.

Sakurai's bias is treated like some deus ex machina where he states he doesn't choose those characters and we disregard that, then ascribe bias to any third-party we can't otherwise explain.

At least Metal Slug skews to a slightly different audience and is, afaik, bigger than SamSho, especially internationally.

To that end, Arle wouldn't get in because of being some classic character, she'd get in due to her overall popularity and the success of Puyo Puyo. I mean I think she has her own problems with regionality, but that's another discussion.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Honestly, it doesn't seem to me that Sakurai/Nintendo actually care enough to make Rayman a fighter.

Kinda would've happened by now if they actually did instead of just settling for a trophy and a Spirit for two generations of Smash.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Not that it would necessarily help his chances as far as Smash, but I do think Ubisoft doing re-releases/remakes of the older Rayman titles could help his overall brand momentum at least. Getting 1, 2, 3, & even Origins on contemporary systems (Switch especially) would be an effective way of re-introducing his legacy to younger fans that don't have the means to play much beyond Legends, Rabbids games, and the Steam version of Origins.

 

[Louie G.]

Sakurai's bias is treated like some deus ex machina where he states he doesn't choose those characters and we disregard that, then ascribe bias to any third-party we can't otherwise explain.

I'm not doing that and I don't really appreciate the implication. For what it's worth, I wasn't explicitly arguing in favor of Samurai Shodown. Metal Slug is more popular and frankly it would be my first pick as well.

And he does call the shots... in base game, which is what I said. I also don't think they think so close-mindedly about whether "we already have received a character who would appeal to a very very similar audience as Nakoruru" or not. That was last game, and we're talking about the next one - if this was a major concern then we may as well not speculate on doubling up on Sonic or Street Fighter. By some metric Terry's audience overlaps with Street Fighter's. I don't even think it's out of the question we get Athena, Geese or Iori, so I really don't agree with this sentiment.

Sakurai "bias" isn't even the point I'm arguing in favor of here. I'm just citing the kinds of characters we've seen up to that point. Mega Man, Pac-Man, Simon and even Sonic are based heavily off of their classic depictions. Obviously they got in on their own merit or popularity, I'm not implying otherwise, but they are very much represented as "classic" characters. There are other more contemporary versions of those characters that could have been used and were not.

To that end, Arle wouldn't get in because of being some classic character, she'd get in due to her overall popularity and the success of Puyo Puyo.

This is inherently linked to her being a classic character. Puyo Puyo Tsuu is specifically one of the biggest arcade games in Japan. There are other factors at play, the Puyo brand is still active and has spread to more of a worldwide scale over the years, but there is no doubt in my mind that if Arle makes it into Smash that she will be represented as a "classic" character in the vein of the others I mentioned, likely just using a contemporary design but playing heavily into the legacy of Puyo Puyo Tsuu. Tetris and Puyo are foundational puzzle games that have continued to live on through new adaptations and gimmicks, redesigns and so forth, but they are still coated in some degree of retro appeal like Pac-Man since their gameplay has not fundamentally changed at all.

I think you might have misunderstood what I was trying to say? But typing this out I'm progressively more confused what I'm arguing about. Obviously I wasn't speaking in absolutes about the one exclusive reason these characters got in was because Sakurai likes arcade games, and acting as if they haven't done anything else in 30 years. Just that up to this point, with the characters Sakurai actually DID select himself - namely Mega Man, Pac-Man and Simon - they tend to play deeply into their retro roots. Not that far fetched to assume something similar may happen again, with the surplus of options we have that align with a similar sentiment. Puyo Puyo, Metal Slug, Ninja Gaiden, whatever.

 

[Dinoman96]

Honestly, it doesn't seem to me that Sakurai/Nintendo actually care enough to make Rayman a fighter.

Kinda would've happened by now if they actually did instead of just settling for a trophy and a Spirit for two generations of Smash.

That's how I've always felt. To me Rayman kinda exists in that strange void the likes of Phoenix Wright and Lloyd exist in, the kind of characters that certainly have notable followings, just...not really enough to be prioritized as playable, unlike .

 

[Louie G.]

Honestly, it doesn't seem to me that Sakurai/Nintendo actually care enough to make Rayman a fighter.

Kinda would've happened by now if they actually did instead of just settling for a trophy and a Spirit for two generations of Smash.

If you want my real opinion, it's that we just won't get a Ubisoft character. But I figure if they bother to collaborate with them, Rayman is the one with ongoing vocal community support and the one Ubisoft seems to rally for themselves.

Since dealing with western companies is kind of new territory for the roster anyway, perhaps now is a better time to act on it than it was before. Clearly Ubisoft has been game for a while now, but maybe there was some discomfort around the idea of overseas collaboration until Microsoft and Nintendo became bosom buddies (and it's my opinion that FP2 was decided not too long after FP1 was). I'm not too confident in it, since again Rayman is kind of a non-entity out there. So it feels like a steep hurdle for him to jump, but to his credit I feel like his popularity has not waned at all compared to his contemporaries.

But I can understand the sentiment. I just think enough has changed about the climate of roster speculation now, in a post Banjo and Steve world, where we might see slightly smaller western picks down the line. I feel like they wanted to be conservative, work within the bond they already had with Microsoft, and went for the most popular fan pick and the biggest game in the world. I imagine they'll always be a bit conservative with the number of western picks.

 

[SharkLord]

Honestly, it doesn't seem to me that Sakurai/Nintendo actually care enough to make Rayman a fighter.

Kinda would've happened by now if they actually did instead of just settling for a trophy and a Spirit for two generations of Smash.

In Smash 4 there were only three third-parties in base, and those were really big characters. Sonic, Mega Man, and Pac-Man were (And still are) icons of gaming; No shade to Rayman, but he's not quite on that level.

And in Ultimate, there was just Not Enough Room for every single character with a decent fan following. We got a lot more third-parties, yeah, but the base game AND the Fighter's Passes only had five or six full fighters each. Even with DLC, there was still a lower amount of newcomers in general.

So in short, Smash 4 seemed to have a limited selection of third-party slots, and Ultimate had a much wider variety of third-parties, but it just had less room for fighters in general. So all things considered, I wouldn't discount any fighter just because they haven't shown up yet.

If you want my real opinion, it's that we just won't get a Ubisoft character. But I figure if they bother to collaborate with them, Rayman is the one with ongoing vocal community support and the one Ubisoft seems to rally for themselves.

Since dealing with western companies is kind of new territory for the roster anyway, perhaps now is a better time to act on it than it was before. Clearly Ubisoft has been game for a while now, but maybe there was some discomfort around the idea of overseas collaboration until Microsoft and Nintendo became bosom buddies (and it's my opinion that FP2 was decided not too long after FP1 was). I'm not too confident in it, since again Rayman is kind of a non-entity out there. So it feels like a steep hurdle for him to jump, but to his credit I feel like his popularity has not waned at all compared to much of his contemporaries.

But I can understand the sentiment. I just think enough has changed about the climate of roster speculation now, in a post Banjo and Steve world, where we might see slightly smaller western picks down the line. I feel like they wanted to be conservative, work within the bond they already had with Microsoft, and went for the most popular fan pick and the biggest game in the world. I imagine they'll always be a bit conservative with the number of western picks.

I'll need to find a source for it, but I believe Sakurai's gone on record saying that negotiations for third-parties are held in-person, with Nintendo literally walking over to the other company's offices for the meeting. Microsoft is stationed in Redmond, Washington, which is the very same city that Nintendo of America is at, so they could do the same thing for Banjo and Steve. Of course, if Nintendo and/or Sakurai really want a certain character I think they'd figure it out regardless of where the other company is, but I'd imagine it might pose a bit of a hurdle for negotiations. That would be especially true of American companies, since you can't just take a quick train ride from Washington to Texas or Los Angeles.

 

[Gorgonzales]

Y’know speaking of Rayman:

Still crazy how much Smash Bros. potential Rayman was given in Sparks of Hope alone.

You could build a moveset just from this DLC and he'd still have one of the most fun and unique movesets in Smash 💪 pic.twitter.com/toKVKEtsBV

— Rayman for Smash Together (@RaymanForSmash) July 20, 2024

reintroduces rayman in a crossover with mario
doesn't actually let rayman meet mario

literally what where they thinking

 

[dream1ng]

I’d agree with this take if more modern arcades, like the various Taito and GiGo entertainment centres, didn’t also follow this trend.

For example, the most arcade I went to with the most modern fighting games was the Taito Centre in Denden Town in Osaka, which had multiple SFIV cabinets, multiple SFVI cabinets, two Tekken 7 cabinets, a Blazeblue cabinet, and a multi cabinet that ran both Melty Blood and Under Night. For retro games, it had multiple Street Fighter II cabinets, King of Fighters ‘98, JoJo: HftF, and MvC2, so the old and new games were basically at parity.

...right. Some skew 90s and some don't. I feel like this is what I was saying...

Taito Arcades are pretty squarely aimed at big tent audiences and try to incentivize new blood to come in with advertisements and a general showmanship that the smaller fish don’t have. However, 18-24 year-old Joe Six-Pack generally isn’t coming in for fighters, he’s coming in for the rhythm games, Gundam sims, and especially the crane games (which seem to be the most popular attractions by far). I think of the one reasons Tekken 7 is the most popular fighter among modern audiences in Japanese arcades is the Namco Passport system, which allows people from different arcades to find matches with another arcade if there is no one willing to play with you in your arcade. You can often find someone to play with you in person, but there’s no guarantee of that and this system really helps with the downtime.

Well then if anything we're probably overlooking Don-Chan.

I think the closest equivalent to how Japan seems to view fighting games is how the West views platformers. Both are still semi-popular genres and they get new regular releases. However, they’re primarily associated with a time in the past where they were massive and most of the biggest new releases continue to use IPs from when the genre was at its peak in popularity.

The thing is, Terry came representing, if not all of SNK, then all of its fighters. Perhaps the NeoGeo itself as well. Not just FF and KoF. Just look at his trailer/stage/music, etc. But because he did that, unless they cut him, a character like Nakoruru would really only get in representing SamSho.

And SamSho is a series that certainly has its fans, but... for it to not seem highly outclassed by other series you either have to look at it in terms of which old games are popular in Japanese arcades (a very narrow distinction that excludes most of gaming), or in terms of specifically giving SNK a second character rather than adding a character who just happens to be SNK. And that is a basis on which I'm not sure they operate.

Sakurai may be a fan of arcades, but this is still such tunnel vision in a way that even Terry wasn't that it verges, imo strongly, into the territory of unlikelihood. So gauging what is popular in Japanese arcades is well and fine, but... to base conclusions primarily on that is a very big leap. There is so so much in gaming that exceeds those borders in much bigger ways.

I think Metal Slug deals with this problem as well (where its dwarfed by other options and it would only get in representing itself rather than SNK like Terry did) just not to the same extent as SamSho, being bigger internationally and being far less represented than the fighting catalogue of SNK.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Hey guys do you think of the recent controversies with Assassins Creed Shadows we may not be seeing a character from that franchise?

Considering that the controversy that comes to mind is due to blatant racism, sexism and xenophobia, I sure hope Nintendo doesn't refuse to add a character because of that.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

In Smash 4 there were only three third-parties in base, and those were really big characters. Sonic, Mega Man, and Pac-Man were (And still are) icons of gaming; No shade to Rayman, but he's not quite on that level.

And in Ultimate, there was just Not Enough Room for every single character with a decent fan following. We got a lot more third-parties, yeah, but the base game AND the Fighter's Passes only had five or six full fighters each. Even with DLC, there was still a lower amount of newcomers in general.

So in short, Smash 4 seemed to have a limited selection of third-party slots, and Ultimate had a much wider variety of third-parties, but it just had less room for fighters in general. So all things considered, I wouldn't discount any fighter just because they haven't shown up yet.

I would if they made it a point to include a guest character at all but not make them playable for whatever reason multiple times.

Like, there's a difference between someone like Banjo just not showing up until Ultimate as DLC and Rayman being willingly negotiated for appearances twice but not for any playable role despite multiple opportunities for it, with leeway only for base For given it's the first time and the influential point (Legends for Wii U being published by Nintendo in Japan) not happening when the roster was picked.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I would if they made it a point to include a guest character at all but not make them playable for whatever reason multiple times.

Like, there's a difference between someone like Banjo just not showing up until Ultimate as DLC and Rayman being willingly negotiated for appearances twice but not for any playable role despite multiple opportunities for it, with leeway only for base For given it's the first time and the influential point (Legends for Wii U being published by Nintendo in Japan) not happening when the roster was picked.

I think this disinterest can be explained by the Rayman franchise's poor state. It's not in a good place and the sales aren't there for companies to want the IP to continue,

 

[DKing]

Rabbids

Rayman: "when does the rabbids will stop stalk me."