Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I think this disinterest can be explained by the Rayman franchise's poor state. It's not in a good place and the sales aren't there for companies to want the IP to continue,

That only accounts for now though.
Rayman was still active of a series with Legends and Legends Definitive Edition when he could have been DLC for For or in base or DLC for Ultimate.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

That only accounts for now though.
Rayman was still active of the series with Legends and Legends Definitive Edition when he could have been DLC for For or in base or DLC for Ultimate.

Honestly I think those games prove my point.

Wasn't Legends considered a failure financially?

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Honestly I think those games prove my point.

Wasn't Legends considered a failure financially?

It didn't meet Ubisoft's expectations, but it didoutperform its direct predecessor Origins in one week and total sales across all systems reached at least 4.48 million copies by February 2019.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

It didn't meet Ubisoft's expectations, but it didoutperform its direct predecessor Origins in one week and total sales across all systems reached at least 4.48 million copies by February 2019.

Wait really? I thought it sold much worse than Origins.

I stand corrected.

 

[SharkLord]

I would if they made it a point to include a guest character at all but not make them playable for whatever reason multiple times.

Like, there's a difference between someone like Banjo just not showing up until Ultimate as DLC and Rayman being willingly negotiated for appearances twice but not for any playable role despite multiple opportunities for it, with leeway only for base For given it's the first time and the influential point (Legends for Wii U being published by Nintendo in Japan) not happening when the roster was picked.

If I remember correctly, Ubisoft directly sent Nintendo Rayman's model for Smash 4. That probably wasn't part of Nintendo's plan, so they likely couldn't do much beyond a trophy without dumping an unexpected extra workload into the schedule. And then for Ultimate, there still wasn't much room for fighters in general, but relations with Ubi were good enough that they could secure the licensing to a couple PNGs. Especially seeing as SSBU was running on Ballot picks, so they probably got a couple quick Spirits for decently popular requests that they just didn't have enough time for, like Rayman.

I think it's also worth noting that just because Sakurai can get the license to a character doesn't mean he has the time or budget to make a whole new fighter. Every new fighter is an added workload to making assets, coding, balancing, playtesting, bugfixing, so on and so forth, so say nothing about potential items or stages that might come with a new series being represented. There just isn't always going to be room for every possible candidate.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Rayman is a bit like Ubisoft's Donkey Kong to a degree; profitable enough to be worth keeping the brand active/relevant through appearances and merch, not quite considered high priority enough within the gaming development sphere to get actual new mainline titles based around them. One almost gets the sense that if there was a powerful enough person/team at Ubisoft that was pushing for a new Rayman focused game it might be enough to warrant the investment in one.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Wait really? I thought it sold much worse than Origins.

I stand corrected.

Yeah, it's apparently the highest selling game in the entire franchise according to Guiness Book of World Records, beating out the original PS1 game by 1.45 mil copies.

Granted that's when combining all versions of the game, but still.

 

[Noipoi]

Rayman has had enough of a presence in Smash that I do believe he’ll be playable eventually.

He just needs another goddamn game

 

[Louie G.]

Well then if anything we're probably overlooking Don-Chan.

Yes, we are!

I’ve been of this mind for a while now - not sure if I particularly expect him, but he’s drastically undervalued in the Namco conversation.

 

[Gorgonzales]

Yes, we are!

I’ve been of this mind for a while now - not sure if I particularly expect him, but he’s drastically undervalued in the Namco conversation.

I'd like Don-Chan a lot. I'm not even a fan of his games, I just like funny creatures and being able to play as them in games. He'd definitely stand out in the crowd, too. Not many other candidates can say they're a quadrupedal rhythm game character.

 

[cashregister9]

DON-CHAN MENTIONED

Remember If we are being technical and count the arcade games he got into Mario Kart before several major Mario Characters

 

[HyperSomari64]

DON-CHAN MENTIONED

Remember If we are being technical and count the arcade games he got into Mario Kart before several major Mario Characters

Isn't that the Mario Kart with Ghostly Adventures' Pac-Man?

Glad that we don't live in the timeline where Sakurai approved it for Smash 4.

 

[Speed Weed]

I'm so glad the Don-chan army has persisted to this day

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

It didn't meet Ubisoft's expectations, but it didoutperform its direct predecessor Origins in one week and total sales across all systems reached at least 4.48 million copies by February 2019.

It sold like hot cakes, but that wasn't enough? OK Capcom.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Selling like hotcakes isn't that meaningful. If they have a specific quota, that's what they consider successful.

Companies obviously can have higher expectations than they should, but welp.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Companies obviously can have higher expectations than they should, but welp.

Square Enix actually explained their method of reaching their seemingly high expectation numbers.

They basically said "If we had taken the money we spent developing the game, and put it in a low-risk investment portfolio for the amount of time we spent developing the game, the amount of money we would have made is our expectation number."

Because if the game can't surpass that number, then they were better off...not making the game and just investing the money instead. Now, I don't agree with that philosophy, but I can see how it makes sense to the bean counters.

And that's how SE ends up with games that sell well, but still fail to meet sales expectations. Too much money and time spent for not enough return.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Honest question.

Why do you think franchises like The Legendary Starfy, and Rhythm Heaven stopped getting games?

I understand that some of the more recent titles underperformed, but they still sold well enough to continue. I guess the Rhythm Heaven team has been busy with Wario Ware (to great success), but I can't wrap my head around why Starfy stopped getting games.

 

[Garteam]

...right. Some skew 90s and some don't. I feel like this is what I was saying...


Well then if anything we're probably overlooking Don-Chan.


The thing is, Terry came representing, if not all of SNK, then all of its fighters. Perhaps the NeoGeo itself as well. Not just FF and KoF. Just look at his trailer/stage/music, etc. But because he did that, unless they cut him, a character like Nakoruru would really only get in representing SamSho.

And SamSho is a series that certainly has its fans, but... for it to not seem highly outclassed by other series you either have to look at it in terms of which old games are popular in Japanese arcades (a very narrow distinction that excludes most of gaming), or in terms of specifically giving SNK a second character rather than adding a character who just happens to be SNK. And that is a basis on which I'm not sure they operate.

Sakurai may be a fan of arcades, but this is still such tunnel vision in a way that even Terry wasn't that it verges, imo strongly, into the territory of unlikelihood. So gauging what is popular in Japanese arcades is well and fine, but... to base conclusions primarily on that is a very big leap. There is so so much in gaming that exceeds those borders in much bigger ways.

I think Metal Slug deals with this problem as well (where its dwarfed by other options and it would only get in representing itself rather than SNK like Terry did) just not to the same extent as SamSho, being bigger internationally and being far less represented than the fighting catalogue of SNK.

I think you misunderstand what I’m saying. Arcades with the most modern selection of fighting games skew 50/50 and most of those games are new entries in classic franchises. That’s a sign that Japanese arcades are still dominated by classic fighting games. I don’t think you’d find such a thing as an arcade with a strict selection of modern fighters due to the legacy of these classic games and, if such an arcade exists, I certainly haven’t been able to find it.

In terms of Don-Chan, I am definitely on team Don-Chan as an idea, but he occupies a completely different niche than the fighter game characters. It’s completely apples to oranges beyond both originating from arcades.

I’m going to be honest, saying we don’t need Nakoruru because we have Terry and he represents SNK’s fighters is kind of a silly argument. SamSho has a completely different style of gameplay and aesthetics than Fatal Fury/King of Fighters. It’s like saying we don’t need Kirby because Mario represents Nintendo’s platformers.

In terms of SamSho being obscure internationally, I don’t disagree but… honestly, most fighting games are obscure internationally. Guilty Gear Strive only sold 2 million copies. That’s a pretty modest success in the grand scheme of the industry. The only massive fighting game that’s not in Smash is Mortal Kombat, but that’s a Western franchise with little presence in Japan beyond the initial three games and the supporting media like the movie.

I’m not going to deny we could get a more console-centric fighting game rep like Sol or Kasumi (I’ve actually fought for the latter in this thread). However, previous fighting game representation has leaned heavily into what is popular and relevant in Japanese arcades. Capcom and SNK were the main names on the 2-D front, while Tekken and VF were the popular 3-D games with Tekken slowly overtaking VF. As such, we got Street Fighter, Fatal Fury/KoF, and Tekken in playable roles while VF got an assist trophy. I don’t think it’s having “tunnel vision” to look primarily at what could come next in this pattern, even if there is a chance of a deviation.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Honest question.

Why do you think franchises like The Legendary Starfy, and Rhythm Heaven stopped getting games?

I understand that some of the more recent titles underperformed, but they still sold well enough to continue. I guess the Rhythm Heaven team has been busy with Wario Ware (to great success), but I can't wrap my head around why Starfy stopped getting games.

For Starfy I would have mostly just assumed it's because TOSE is more of a support dev to the point they usually aren't credited, but they still made like 5 of them, so I'm not really sure. I don't really have sales figures, but I feel like I remember seeing something somewhere about each Starfy game doing worse as the series went on? So since the copyright is shared between Nintendo and TOSE, one or both sides may have deemed it not worth it to continue.

Not to mention Starfy kind of has a hard time in the market anyway as long as Kirby exists, but I doubt that was a concern, just something I've kinda noticed lol

 

[fogbadge]

Honest question.

Why do you think franchises like The Legendary Starfy, and Rhythm Heaven stopped getting games?

I understand that some of the more recent titles underperformed, but they still sold well enough to continue. I guess the Rhythm Heaven team has been busy with Wario Ware (to great success), but I can't wrap my head around why Starfy stopped getting games.

I don't think the starfy games have ever done that well overall. it took until the 5th game to get outside japan and even then it never got worldwide. those nso ports are the first we in europe have of him.

as for rhythm paradise, well i guess they just prefer wario ware more. although i'd hope after making three in a row they'd want to do something new

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Honest question.

Why do you think franchises like The Legendary Starfy, and Rhythm Heaven stopped getting games?

I understand that some of the more recent titles underperformed, but they still sold well enough to continue. I guess the Rhythm Heaven team has been busy with Wario Ware (to great success), but I can't wrap my head around why Starfy stopped getting games.

I honestly think there were certain series that made sense within the context of modest portable development costs where teams could experiment (see Wario Land) that eventually faded away once other franchises ended up getting such team's attention and the infrastructure of development teams evolved. TOSE has had constant work with Square Enix on top of other Nintendo projects while I suspect Rhythm Heaven simply shifted in importance after Nintendo SPD was merged with other divisions.

Sad as it is, I think some IP's are just internally seen as practical to put out in past eras and not so much in the present. Even beyond the logistical impediments the sentiment of "There should be a sequel being worked on so we can have another Starfy game" is one often more held by fans than even the developers themselves.

 

[Dinoman96]

I don't think the starfy games have ever done that well overall. it took until the 5th game to get outside japan and even then it never got worldwide. those nso ports are the first we in europe have of him.

What do you mean exactly? I thought The Legendary Starfy did come out in PAL regions in 2009?

edit: looking into it, apparently, it only came out in Australia?

 

[Oracle Link]

I personally hate that nowadays as soon as you criticize anything Deemed "Diverse" you're immeadiatly called a bunch of horrible things!
Yeah i know those people are clickbaity and some of them are definitly jerks! But dont you think some are just generally upset about modern practices?

Let people be upset about a black samurai in the first asian Assasians Creed! Let people be upset about the bridget situation and let me be upset about zelda being the protagonist!

Those things are all fictional so its not important irl but you are still allowed to be upset about Changes or decisions you disagree with in Media!

Those criticisms are honestly the same as: I dont like Links outfit in BOTW or I dont like Heihachis death!

Dont Silence a Criticism with terrible Insults try to argue civaly just like the other side should!

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I personally hate that nowadays as soon as you criticize anything Deemed "Diverse" you're immeadiatly called a bunch of horrible things!
Yeah i know those people are clickbaity and some of them are definitly jerks! But dont you think some are just generally upset about modern practices?

Let people be upset about a black samurai in the first asian Assasians Creed! Let people be upset about the bridget situation and let me be upset about zelda being the protagonist!

Those things are all fictional so its not important irl but you are still allowed to be upset about Changes or decisions you disagree with in Media!

Those criticisms are honestly the same as: I dont like Links outfit in BOTW or I dont like Heihachis death!

Dont Silence a Criticism with terrible Insults try to argue civaly just like the other side should!

Well the thing is, broader diversity in games is a very important aspect to a lot of people that often haven't seen themselves represented in what is now in an incredible big medium so for them, yes getting more races/ethnicities/sexualities/genders/etc is going to be more a bit important than the clothing styles of a character. Add in the fact that many of those criticizing the addition of a black samurai to Assassin's Creed aren't necessarily doing so in in good faith and its not really a surprise that many will vocally object to what they see as either bigoted arguments or being driven by a monetary desire for clickbait revenue.

Yes, these are fictional characters, however given how significant various types of fiction is to so many people, it makes complete sense as to why fans value having non-traditional figures in gaming. Listen I think a lot of the back and forth about this stuff is exhausting and quite frankly I'm not terribly impressed by the newest AC game given that I think Ubisoft has already excessively milked the series already. However, I'm not going to begrudge those excited for having a Yasuke in it or be inclined to see those vocally harshest against his inclusion as being on the same level as those that wouldn't like Link's hair in the next LoZ, because the former often feels indicative of something much uglier than just sheer fan preference.

 

[fogbadge]

Well the thing is, broader diversity in games is a very important aspect to a lot of people that often haven't seen themselves represented in what is now in an incredible big medium so for them, yes getting more races/ethnicities/sexualities/genders/etc is going to be more a bit important than the clothing styles of a character. Add in the fact that many of those criticizing the addition of a black samurai to Assassin's Creed aren't necessarily doing so in in good faith and its not really a surprise that many will vocally object to what they see as either bigoted arguments or being driven by a monetary desire for clickbait revenue.

Yes, these are fictional characters, however given how significant various types of fiction is to so many people, it makes complete sense as to why fans value having non-traditional figures in gaming. Listen I think a lot of the back and forth about this stuff is exhausting and quite frankly I'm not terribly impressed by the newest AC game given that I think Ubisoft has already excessively milked the series already. However, I'm not going to begrudge those excited for having a Yasuke in it or be inclined to see those vocally harshest against his inclusion as being on the same level as those that wouldn't like Link's hair in the next LoZ, because the former often feels indicative of something much uglier than just sheer fan preference.

don’t respond to him, he’s not worth it

 

[Opossum]

I don't think the starfy games have ever done that well overall. it took until the 5th game to get outside japan and even then it never got worldwide. those nso ports are the first we in europe have of him.

as for rhythm paradise, well i guess they just prefer wario ware more. although i'd hope after making three in a row they'd want to do something new

Starfy not leaving Japan until the fifth game didn't have anything to do with his domestic sales. It was because it was a dialogue-heavy cutesy platformer that relied a ton on Japan-oriented comedy that's hard to translate overseas.

The stated reason for them was literally that NoA considered them "too Japanese" to bring over, as gross as that sounds.

 

[fogbadge]

Starfy not leaving Japan until the fifth game didn't have anything to do with his domestic sales. It was because it was a dialogue-heavy cutesy platformer that relied a ton on Japan-oriented comedy that's hard to translate overseas.

The stated reason for them was literally that NoA considered them "too Japanese" to bring over, as gross as that sounds.

I seem to recall that was also the reason they were hesitant to release wario ware as well

not that I have a point, just making an observation

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Starfy not leaving Japan until the fifth game didn't have anything to do with his domestic sales. It was because it was a dialogue-heavy cutesy platformer that relied a ton on Japan-oriented comedy that's hard to translate overseas.

The stated reason for them was literally that NoA considered them "too Japanese" to bring over, as gross as that sounds.

Rhythm Heaven Fever had a Japanese exclusive endless game called Monzai Birds. They didn't bother translating it since it was based on a Japanese comedy routine, and (at least from what I've been told) relied exclusively on homonym based puns. Now, the English language isn't want for homonyms, but westerners will still struggle to understand the vulture randomly going "BOIIIING!" beyond the typical Rhythm Heaven silliness.

It's kind of a shame, but it does happen.

 

[Noipoi]

Starfy not leaving Japan until the fifth game didn't have anything to do with his domestic sales. It was because it was a dialogue-heavy cutesy platformer that relied a ton on Japan-oriented comedy that's hard to translate overseas.

The stated reason for them was literally that NoA considered them "too Japanese" to bring over, as gross as that sounds.

They should’ve just replaced all the dialogue with corny fish puns and references to American pop culture.

 

[fogbadge]

They should’ve just replaced all the dialogue with corny fish puns and references to American pop culture.

woomy?

 

[Hadokeyblade]

DON-CHAN MENTIONED

Remember If we are being technical and count the arcade games he got into Mario Kart before several major Mario Characters

I wish he'd come back to the series.

the addition of a black samurai to Assassin's Creed aren't necessarily doing so in in good faith and its not really a surprise that many will vocally object to what they see as either bigoted arguments or being driven by a monetary desire for clickbait revenue.

All i ever said is that it's stupid to make him the protagonist because he's supposedly a real historical figure and Assassins creed games arent supposed to be using real historical figures for their protagonists, the protagonists were all made up characters who live in the shadows of history influencing the real historical figures to do things

Changing that now is dumb.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

I think the next Smash will have a few more western characters. At this point most of the really big japanese stuff is already in Smash, like the only ones that I think really feel missing are Capcom's biggest hits and Dark Souls/Elden Ring/From Software's works in general.
On the other front you have Doom, Halo, Mortal Kombat, Assassin's Creed, Fallout, Elder Scrolls, GTA, Red Dead Redemption, Crash, Bioshock... Those are all really big franchises that would bring a ton of attention to their inclusion in Smash. Then there's slightly less popular stuff that still resonates with Nintendo fans and would be well received, like Rayman or the rest of Rare's catalogue. And that's not even counting the indie sphere. Undertale, Hollow Knight, Shantae... Those games are popular.

It just feels like a natural evolution.

 

[MrMcNuts]

That's how I've always felt. To me Rayman kinda exists in that strange void the likes of Phoenix Wright and Lloyd exist in, the kind of characters that certainly have notable followings, just...not really enough to be prioritized as playable, unlike .

This is the only thing I'll quote because you use these same two examples every time when trying to insist Rayman isn't a popular request despite him being a lot more requested than those two on every poll I don't think insisting he's not requested over and over will magically make it true.


Late to the Rayman discussion but uhhhh yeah I pretty much agree with mostly everything (except the series selling low, like someone said legends sold 4.5 mil as of 2019 which is good for a platformer, I think even Origins which is the weakest still broke a lil when ya crunch the math. Ubisoft is just too obsessed with mega sellers).

Pretty popular request that hasn't lost his momentum, that even if it's not on Crash's level, there's still some picks like Simon that were said to have been picked due to demand despite not being a mega one like k.rool or banjo. Has had his foot in the door since smash 4, so clearly there's been some discussion behind the scenes. Unfortunate it hasn't happened yet but we've had a few characters have to endure being measley collectables several games in a row that finally made it.

Always aggreed the biggest hurdle was that he just was never big in Japan, but with Nintendo opening up to Western characters slowly but surely, I feel one day he can get in the door all the way as long as the momentum keeps going. They allowed Ubisoft Milan to put him in Mario Rabbids so hopefully Nintendo sees some value in him, and he's slowly gettting some more relevancy (hopefully a new game is in that pipeline someday).

Sorry word salad but I'm the resident Rayman lover here, and I'm confident as long as this big fan demand keeps up he'll get in one day (hopefully not smash 8 or something when I'm old).

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I think the next Smash will have a few more western characters. At this point most of the really big japanese stuff is already in Smash, like the only ones that I think really feel missing are Capcom's biggest hits and Dark Souls/Elden Ring/From Software's works in general.
On the other front you have Doom, Halo, Mortal Kombat, Assassin's Creed, Fallout, Elder Scrolls, GTA, Red Dead Redemption, Crash, Bioshock... Those are all really big franchises that would bring a ton of attention to their inclusion in Smash. Then there's slightly less popular stuff that still resonates with Nintendo fans and would be well received, like Rayman or the rest of Rare's catalogue. And that's not even counting the indie sphere. Undertale, Hollow Knight, Shantae... Those games are popular.

It just feels like a natural evolution.

There are still a lot of major Namco, Sega, Square and Capcom IPs. They could go on mostly Japanese stuff for a while without dipping into the obscure stuff.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Mortal Kombat

I know I'm singling out a really specific bit here, and I tried to ignore it but it would've bothered me until I mentioned it lmao

Isn't Mortal Kombat banned in the country of Japan? Or is it a case of "it used to be, but it's not anymore"? Because like, apologies to the Mortal Kombat character fanbase but I don't think MK has any semblance of a chance as long as that's the case, but I could be wrong on it being an issue to begin with, so I'm legitimately wondering about this.

 

[MrMcNuts]

If I remember correctly, Ubisoft directly sent Nintendo Rayman's model for Smash 4. That probably wasn't part of Nintendo's plan, so they likely couldn't do much beyond a trophy without dumping an unexpected extra workload into the schedule.

Oh also wanted to reply to this it just won't let me edit it into my og post.

Sakurai actually wrote in the initial Miiverse post for the Rayman trophy that they asked Ubisoft for references to make the trophy and were sent models instead. Doesn't change a lot, but shows something was discussed prior. Rather than like Way forward just sending Shantae pngs and hoping for the best.

 

[DKing]

I know I'm singling out a really specific bit here, and I tried to ignore it but it would've bothered me until I mentioned it lmao

Isn't Mortal Kombat banned in the country of Japan? Or is it a case of "it used to be, but it's not anymore"? Because like, apologies to the Mortal Kombat character fanbase but I don't think MK has any semblance of a chance as long as that's the case, but I could be wrong on it being an issue to begin with, so I'm legitimately wondering about this.

MK is a big fighting game in the west, Japan is kinda familiar with some MK characters that appear in injustice and the movie of Mortal kombat. Like you said the ban could be factor against them to put an MK character in smash but I hope it's not the case.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I think the next Smash will have a few more western characters. At this point most of the really big japanese stuff is already in Smash, like the only ones that I think really feel missing are Capcom's biggest hits and Dark Souls/Elden Ring/From Software's works in general.
On the other front you have Doom, Halo, Mortal Kombat, Assassin's Creed, Fallout, Elder Scrolls, GTA, Red Dead Redemption, Crash, Bioshock... Those are all really big franchises that would bring a ton of attention to their inclusion in Smash. Then there's slightly less popular stuff that still resonates with Nintendo fans and would be well received, like Rayman or the rest of Rare's catalogue. And that's not even counting the indie sphere. Undertale, Hollow Knight, Shantae... Those games are popular.

It just feels like a natural evolution.

Imagine if we just start getting lower tier Japanese franchises ala King of fighters instead lmao.

Like Digimon, Klonoa, Super robot wars, Tales Of, Ace Attorney. It would be funny to watch people complain about weeb garbage infesting Nintendo.

 

[RileyXY1]

I think the next Smash will have a few more western characters. At this point most of the really big japanese stuff is already in Smash, like the only ones that I think really feel missing are Capcom's biggest hits and Dark Souls/Elden Ring/From Software's works in general.
On the other front you have Doom, Halo, Mortal Kombat, Assassin's Creed, Fallout, Elder Scrolls, GTA, Red Dead Redemption, Crash, Bioshock... Those are all really big franchises that would bring a ton of attention to their inclusion in Smash. Then there's slightly less popular stuff that still resonates with Nintendo fans and would be well received, like Rayman or the rest of Rare's catalogue. And that's not even counting the indie sphere. Undertale, Hollow Knight, Shantae... Those games are popular.

It just feels like a natural evolution.

I'm not expecting that many Western characters, especially considering that I think that the next game will be much smaller in scope than Ultimate.

 

[fogbadge]

I think the next Smash will have a few more western characters. At this point most of the really big japanese stuff is already in Smash, like the only ones that I think really feel missing are Capcom's biggest hits and Dark Souls/Elden Ring/From Software's works in general.
On the other front you have Doom, Halo, Mortal Kombat, Assassin's Creed, Fallout, Elder Scrolls, GTA, Red Dead Redemption, Crash, Bioshock... Those are all really big franchises that would bring a ton of attention to their inclusion in Smash. Then there's slightly less popular stuff that still resonates with Nintendo fans and would be well received, like Rayman or the rest of Rare's catalogue. And that's not even counting the indie sphere. Undertale, Hollow Knight, Shantae... Those games are popular.

It just feels like a natural evolution.

trust me when it comes to smash there is no natural evolution