Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Wonder Smash]

Valid

Ignoring the design of his moveset, Little Mac even has the Shulk problem of being kinda ugly and doesn't really look like the character.

Please! He looks just like himself. There's nothing wrong with the way he represents Punch-Out!!.

 

[TheQuester]

I kinda feel like Punh doesnt really need a second character?


If it gets one cool but i think its fine to rep it with just Mac

It doesn't but it wouldn't hurt to have another one, the cast is charming.
It's like Snake, was he needed in Brawl? not really, but was he cool? oh yeah.

 

[Louie G.]

Please! He looks just like himself. There's nothing wrong with the way he represents Punch-Out!!.

I’m somewhere in the middle on this. I personally think he looks fine. Punch-Out Wii is heavily stylized and his Smash design is still recognizable while easing him into this artstyle. Never struck me as an issue.

His moveset is a mixed bag. Obviously, on paper, the KO meter is a good representation of the arcade game. It’s just that Little Mac is given a lot of polarizing, somewhat unfitting properties that work in contrast with Punch-Out’s gameplay. Trucking through attacks with super armor is a necessary evil for a character who shouldn’t leave the ground, but is the opposite incentive of how you fight in Punch-Out. With such an extreme design to make up for such exaggerated shortcomings, I think a lot of people just want them to revisit Mac and balance him like a normal character.

I’ve gotten over it a bit myself, just because I feel like it’s not going to change, but Little Mac can certainly be improved on. His Slip Counter could function more as a quick dodge out and punch in, more of an evasive maneuver than a traditional “throw yourself in front of your opponent” counter move. The super armor is fun, but it’s not Mac. So if we sacrificed that for more competent aerials - not GREAT but not unusable either - I’d be content. And I’ve always wished Mac could deal more of a stun effect to follow up with combos, since that’s how Punch-Out works.

I get that Mac’s extremes are supposed to emphasize him as an underdog, while also effectively representing the fundamental design of Punch-Out enemies (a crippling exploitable weakness), but I think there are ways we could do it without making him a punching bag. The way opponents respond the moment they see they’re fighting Little Mac - and the way you’re forced to fight - are not especially fun. People do not respect this character because he is sold on his weakness over his strength. His poor performance for two games straight should probably signal some sort of change is necessary, but he remains a popular character among casual players as-is so I’m not holding my breath.

 

[cashregister9]

I will personally admit, Little Mac's visual design is one of those complaints that I only have because the attention to detail is so good on basically every other character that it is easier to criticize and nitpick.

I have more beef with Shulk and even Mega Man in the grand scheme of things.

 

[TheQuester]

What DLC fighter from Ultimate do you think had the most lukewarm reception?

 

[Perkilator]

What DLC fighter from Ultimate do you think had the most lukewarm reception?

I think the Nintendo DLC characters but especially poor Byleth. I think a better course of action would’ve been to put Min Min and Pyra / Mythra in Vol. 1, and Byleth in Vol. 2.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

What DLC fighter from Ultimate do you think had the most lukewarm reception?

Byleth and Minmin.

Pyra and Mythra got a pass because they are just that popular

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

What DLC fighter from Ultimate do you think had the most lukewarm reception?

Definitely Byleth. It would've worked out way better for them if their reveal was at the end of a Direct since it was made to look like a scene in Three Houses, but just showing it in a Smash showcase makes that fall flat. Pyra and Mythra did the same sort of thing, but it was actually in a Direct so the concept actually worked for them since Monolith Soft made it look like something new for Xenoblade 2 at first.

Plus Byleth's trailer is just kinda bad in general? Even if they had done the idea properly and revealed them in a general Direct, they'd still probably be pretty low because the trailer just isn't all that great, and it's for another FE character at that.

 

[Kalashnikov]

I feel like you guys are misunderstanding what "lukewarm" means. People DEFINITELY had strong opinions about Byleth, lol.

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

The most lukewarm was definitely Min Min, no real strong opinons on her, she came out during the middle of lockdown, and then 10 days later the community controversy happened and completely overshadowed her in the fanbase.

 

[Noipoi]

What DLC fighter from Ultimate do you think had the most lukewarm reception?

If by lukewarm you mean poor reception, then it has to be Byleth. People were pissed, and I think his reveal video had the most dislikes out of any Smash video. The character was never gonna be a big hit, but they also revealed them in the lamest way possible, and it didn't help that there were a lot of rumors about Dante going around, and it really didn't help that for whatever reason they were hyping up the reveal with statements like "Even Nintendo employees will be surprised!" and all in all in was just a bad set of circumstances that only served to ensure they got the worst welcome possible upon reveal. He's been sort of vindicated in recent years, but Byleth's reveal definitely got the nastiest response.

If by lukewarm you just mean an "eh..." response, either Min-Min or Pyra. Everyone just kind of collectively shrugged and said "Cool." when they showed off Min Min. In Pythra's case, they definitely have their fanbase who were stoked, but the response of the common man just seemed to be "Sure, whatever." At least from what I saw.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I feel like you guys are misunderstanding what "lukewarm" means. People DEFINITELY had strong opinions about Byleth, lol.

Well if we're talking generally, probably Min Min's then because we already knew an ARMS character was coming for months and most people figured it'd be Min Min because she was the lead dev's favorite and won that Party Crash popularity contest thing.

I just meant Byleth was the most lukewarm for me personally because of everything I mentioned, like all of the others got me excited, and even though I knew the ARMS character would be Min Min, the trailer was still overall positive for me because it was stylized like a comic book and I knew people who wanted to see Min Min in the game lol

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Well if we're talking generally, probably Min Min's then because we already knew an ARMS character was coming for months and most people figured it'd be Min Min because she was the lead dev's favorite and won that Party Crash popularity contest thing.

I was witness to the ARMS debates.

Min Min wasn't in unanimous agreement.


So many arguments on Spirits and Assist Trophy roles being an issue or not an issue and then the idea of putting a bunch of characters all in one as alts like Hero got strangely prevalent.


By the time we got Min Min's reveal everyone was just done and wanted to move on regardless who it was, but Min Min being a Spirit beforehand then raised a new wave of speculation for other characters.

 

[TheQuester]

If by lukewarm you just mean an "eh..." response, either Min-Min or Pyra. Everyone just kind of collectively shrugged and said "Cool." when they showed off Min Min. In Pythra's case, they definitely have their fanbase who were stoked, but the response of the common man just seemed to be "Sure, whatever." At least from what I saw.

I remember not hearing much fanfare about Kazuya either, so he could be up there.

 

[Noipoi]

I remember not hearing much fanfare about Kazuya either, so he could be up there.

Honestly I don't even remember Kazuya getting too much attention. The discussion shifted to "One character left, who's it gonna be??" and "Alright, one character left. How're they gonna **** it up?"

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I was witness to the ARMS debates.

Min Min wasn't in unanimous agreement.


So many arguments on Spirits and Assist Tophy roles being an issue or not an issue and then the idea of putting a bunch of characters all in one as alts like Hero got strangely prevalent.


By the time we got Min Min's reveal everyone was just done and wanted to move on regardless who it was, but Min Min being a Spirit beforehand then raised a new wave of speculation for other characters.

I do remember the Max Brass and Spring Man upgrade contingents, hence why I said "most" though I guess I should've tuned that down to "a good number" instead, maybe even just "a decent number" lol

 

[Noipoi]

By the time we got Min Min's reveal everyone was just done and wanted to move on regardless who it was, but Min Min being a Spirit beforehand then raised a new wave of speculation for other characters.

One day, my sweet...

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

One day, my sweet...

You can have Rayman or a new DK game.
Pick one :V.

 

[Noipoi]

You can have Rayman or a new DK game.
Pick one :V.

It doesn’t matter what I pick, neither is ever gonna happen

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

Agreed, i think DS is also slept on.

Also I realise I had something typed up to talk about this but I forgot to post it.

I would say between Dark Souls and Elden Ring, the Tarnished (Elden Ring protagonist) probably makes more sense than the Chosen Undead (Dark Souls 1 protagonist), Elden Ring was such a massive dominating success that catapulted FromSoft's library beyond just the gaming community. I think it's tempting to favour Dark Souls for the legacy and history behind that name, and I think that definitely makes sense, but Elden Ring's sheer popularity makes me favour it. Part of the theme of Dark Souls is that ultimately the choice you make about linking the fire doesn't matter, and the world forgets about you no matter what. Dark Souls is a story about its world, less so about the Chosen Undead, who's destined to be irrelevant and forgotten both within the game itself and especially in the sequels. Elden Ring is also very much a story about its world, but I would say it's much more about the Tarnished than Dark Souls is about the Chosen Undead, the player character is given more agency and narrative function, and is treated that way in marketing in a way the Dark Souls protagonists aren't. It kind of lines up with how Elden Ring's story is more about "the world got ****ed up due to the actions of this one person" while Dark Souls is more about "the world got ****ed up due to the cycle of life and power", drastically oversimplifying ofc.

I don't think either would struggle for a moveset either, but Elden Ring is such a massive game that you could give the Tarnished 10 distinct movesets with zero overlap without having to make up any moves, I think it'd be easier to veer away from a sword and shield + spells build that the Chosen Undead might gravitate too while still feeling like a Soulsborne protagonist.

Imo, the ideal way to handle Elden Ring/Dark Souls in Smash within reason (ie not just adding playable characters for both, though it is probably big enough to warrant two characters) would be like:

• Tarnished playable character
• Stage revolving around the Erdtree
• An Anor Londo stage, with variants for both Dark Souls and Dark Souls 3 depending on the music playing
• A Dark Souls boss for the singleplayer. There's a lot of good options, and I think if it actually happened for whatever reason it would probably be Ornstein and Smough, but I would personally go with Slave Knight Gael
• Solaire assist trophy

And of course, Bloodborne PC unveiled within game when you beat classic mode at 9.9 difficulty without taking damage while wearing a blindfold.

 

[Perkilator]

One day, my sweet...

I still wish Rayman got into Sm4sh for real instead of just being the subject of a hoax.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

It doesn’t matter what I pick, neither is ever gonna happen

That's right.

We're getting a Funky Kong game :V

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Ignoring the design of his moveset, Little Mac even has the Shulk problem of being kinda ugly and doesn't really look like the character.

-Shulk and Little Mac have the same problem with their character models

Something about this sounds strangely familiar...

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The only thing that bothers me about Little Mac's appearance is that his left arm is disproportionately bigger than his right arm for some reason.

And yeah, I dunno what's up with Shulk's face, but his 3D model looks kinda rough when zoomed in, and he looks absolutely terrible as anything other than angel blonde. I dunno if the latter problem is caused by the former, but he's the only character that got a downgrade with his pallet swaps changing his hair color.

 

[ninjahmos]

-Shulk and Little Mac have the same problem with their character models

Something about this sounds strangely familiar...

Bottom text

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

Iirc Shulk's model is the same in Ultimate as it was in Smash 4, it's just the game's color pallate and revamped lighting hits him pretty hard.

 

[DarthEnderX]

What DLC fighter from Ultimate do you think had the most lukewarm reception?

It's Byleth. No question.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

What DLC fighter from Ultimate do you think had the most lukewarm reception?

I'd say Hero, but that's mostly because they got leaked and borderline confirmed so long in advance that a lot of people who weren't Dragon Quest fans didn't care much when the official reveal trailer for Hero finally dropped.

The sheer amount of RNG in their moveset seems to have divided their reception as well.

 

[SharkLord]

I'd say Hero, but that's mostly because they got leaked and borderline confirmed so long in advance that a lot of people who weren't Dragon Quest fans didn't care much when the character the official reveal trailer for Hero finally dropped.

The sheer amount of RNG in their moveset seems to have divided their reception as well.

Hero's RNG is hilarious and a blast for casual games with friends, but it's also an absolutely bizarre decision when Dragon Quest isn't nearly that random. Last I checked, I'm pretty sure your command menu doesn't change itself every turn. In hindsight, it kinda feels like making them gimmicky for the sake of having a gimmick

 

[Will]

I'd say Hero, but that's mostly because they got leaked and borderline confirmed so long in advance that a lot of people who weren't Dragon Quest fans didn't care much when the character the official reveal trailer for Hero finally dropped.

I think it was more the fatigue of people trying to justify the filename “Arusu” as anything but Hero for six months.

 

[Gorgonzales]

I remember not hearing much fanfare about Kazuya either, so he could be up there.

Honestly I don't even remember Kazuya getting too much attention. The discussion shifted to "One character left, who's it gonna be??" and "Alright, one character left. How're they gonna **** it up?"

It's definitely Kazuya. He's like the only Fighters Pass character to near-unanimously have people kinda go, "okay".

I remember seeing some pushback or disappointment toward Hero. Min Min, Pyra, Sora, and ESPECIALLY Byleth had substantial instances of negativity (from some groups/people) surrounding their inclusion, while Joker, Banjo, Steve, and Sephiroth were praised the most.

The only non-Kazuya character that I could see one make an argument for having a lukewarm reception is Terry, but once the ball got rolling on him with Sakurai's presentation and his sheer love for the character, I'm pretty sure that nudged people over the fence and to the more positive side.

So yeah, I saw Kazuya as "true neutral" in regards to DLC character reception. Of course there's always someone out there who's mad at any character's inclusion, but from what I remember discussion surrounding the character was... eerily civil. (For Smash fans on social media, at least.)

 

[Guynamednelson]

I think it was more the fatigue of people trying to justify the filename “Arusu” as anything but Hero for six months.

It was "Brave" IIRC.

 

[Noipoi]

It was "Brave" IIRC.

Definitely. I remember all the arguments about how this character or that character could be considered brave enough to have that code name.

Y’know, like every video game hero isn’t brave

 

[Guynamednelson]

Y’know, like every video game hero isn’t brave

Lester the Unlikely.

Checkmate.

 

[Schnee117]

Definitely. I remember all the arguments about how this character or that character could be considered brave enough to have that code name.

Y’know, like every video game hero isn’t brave

Banjos are a Brave instrument

 

[DarthEnderX]

It was "Brave" IIRC.

Specifically because the Japanese word for Brave is "Yūsha".

Which also translates to "Hero".

 

[Will]

Definitely. I remember all the arguments about how this character or that character could be considered brave enough to have that code name.

Y’know, like every video game hero isn’t brave

Tbh, I was one of those people on copium hoping it wasn’t Hero. Then I played DQXI and have been maining Hero ever since. It’s a good RPG.

 

[Diddy Kong]

You can have Rayman or a new DK game.
Pick one :V.

NEW DK GAME!

Sorry Rayman fans. But I'll sacrifice more than Rayman for this

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Kazuya definitely feels like he engendered the most neutral reaction. Fans saw his potential sure and Tekken was significant enough to warrant at character in Smash but between how complex is mechanics were and the general space between SSB players and much of the traditional fighting game sphere, there was some lack of enthusiasm as a result. He was respected and in an almost intellectual sense appreciated, just not outright loved by much of the fandom.

 

[fogbadge]

I'd say Hero, but that's mostly because they got leaked and borderline confirmed so long in advance that a lot of people who weren't Dragon Quest fans didn't care much when the official reveal trailer for Hero finally dropped.

The sheer amount of RNG in their moveset seems to have divided their reception as well.

to be fair hero was probably overshadowed by a more popular character being revealed in the same presentation