Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Perkilator]

What 3rd party characters do you think are likely for base game and which ones are likely for DLC?

• Base game
  • Alucard
  • Any Sonic newcomer
  • Chun-Li
  • Dante
  • Valkyrie (Namco)
  • Lloyd Irving
  • (Potentially) any SNK newcomer
• DLC
  • Crash Bandicoot
  • 2B
  • Estelle Bright
  • Power-Pro Kun
  • Zagreus
  • Dragonborn
  • Shantae

 

[Gengar84]

It’s hard to really say who’s the most likely for third party characters since there are so many options. Out of the characters on my personal most wanted list, I feel Zero is the most likely. He’s had both an assist trophy and a Mii costume. Mega Man X’s combat mechanics feel like they’d translate really well to a game like Smash, particularly for a more close ranged fighter like Zero (compared to Mega Man or X at least).

 

[Perkilator]

I made a bingo card for potential first party inclusions in the next game.
View attachment 388391

Changed it

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

I think Isabelle is fine uniqueness wise, I think you could change her up just to fit her moveset/intended playstyle a bit better. She's designed as a setplay bait-and-punish character, which fits enough, but I think lloid should have more options and flexibility with FAir and BAir maybe made a bit more laggy to reduce her relying on them as an approach/zoning tool. They're so integral to her kit that she'd need to be totally readjusted if they were changed though, so there's a lot you could do.

What 3rd party characters do you think are likely for base game and which ones are likely for DLC?

I'm not sure the divide between base characters and DLC third parites is too clear beyond the obvious of "DLC has to sell", but assuming it's under a mindset of DLC being used to moreso form new partnerships or promotion of a relationship, then I could see like, Rayman and Monster Hunter/Chun-Li as base game characters.

 

[Jave]

Oh, is she not sword locked? I always assumed she'd be Marth adjacent (in the same way that Corrin evokes that aesthetic), but with the gimmick of also having Marth there to give her combos or something.

Alear starts out sword locked but gains Martial Arts when promoted, which includes melee-style moves as well as energy blasts.

Engage's attack animations are legitimately fantastic. One of the main reasons I want Alear in Smash is because I want to see them translated into a Smash moveset.

 

[kirbstr]

It's also not really true in general. The only series that it really applies to are Fire Emblem, and Xenoblade Chronicles, who change their setting and cast in every game.

And even then it's not entirely true because the protagonists keep coming back as DLC in both series, and also E N G A G E.

What major nintendo series doesn't get new content to reflect their latest games in smash?

 

[Gorgonzales]

What major nintendo series doesn't get new content to reflect their latest games in smash?

bottom text

 

[Louie G.]

What major nintendo series doesn't get new content to reflect their latest games in smash?

Point taken regarding Kirby's odd status, but I'm trying to come up with an earnest second answer to the question.

I really can't think of much. At least Kirby did see some music added from the newer games, but every other series has seen more meaningful growth via character / costume additions, moveset changes, stages... I like to think I'm a little more lenient on Kirby's representation than most other fans, but it's hard not to recognize how much this sticks out compared to every other series. They threw in the Ultra Sword I suppose.

Off the top of my head Tropical Freeze feels like a pretty big lapse in content for Donkey Kong, and would have made a killer stage, but I don't think the timing really lined up for it. It came out in 2014, same year as Smash Wii U, and Ultimate didn't really have a lot of space for stages in the first place. I do wish we got a new DKC stage to line up with K. Rool but he isn't even in that game anyway. Otherwise, even a relative dud like Star Fox Zero got a good amount of love in the design department.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

Meh, the idea that Sakurai is obligated to reference "recent stuff" in any franchise is nonsensical in general.

Especially since much of the "recent stuff" ends up being one-off and gives way to the "old stuff" in the end. I'll point out the Zelda one-shot characters again.

"Recent stuff" is basically the bulk of what Smash typically promotes nowadays. You can point to as many exceptions as you'd like, there's usually a couple reasons given for this to be the case. Kirby's the main outlier, where a reasonable excuse was hardly made. A resurging marketed puffball with a lot of press in Japan does not have enough to show for in Smash. When that franchise has over half of the usable cast either tucked away behind optional collectibles, or in some cases completely absent, it becomes more and more difficult to look at Smash as a polished crossover in that regard.

Also, how does being offshoots of Sakurai's foundation invalidate the rest of the franchise's titles? Forgotten Land is definitely not the first to do this, or debatably the best example; it just sold the most. Last I checked, people usually don't come to Smash to specifically see a bestseller focus, but to see their favorite characters in a crossover franchise. Should it make a difference how much a game gets attention over the others due to selling numbers? I can name a number of previous titles selling higher than Super Star, with characters that'd make good Smash fits. If those titles never managed to break the mold, what makes Forgotten Land any different? If anything, I'd argue it could have less of a chance to mend the problem than usual; candidates in Forgotten Land are way scarcer, which mainly leaves miscellaneous content to offer in its place.

 

[MBRedboy31]

A small thing that’d make Isabelle feel a lot more different from Villager without changing her playstyle would be changing the animation of forward air and back air to not be a slingshot. Maybe make her throw paper airplanes or something? The paper airplanes would also be a really deep cut for an unused glitched object in GameCube Animal Crossing that has an extremely small but not impossible chance of appearing in your town due to a bit flip in the memory card data

 

[Louie G.]

A small thing that’d make Isabelle feel a lot more different from Villager without changing her playstyle would be changing the animation of forward air and back air to not be a slingshot. Maybe make her throw paper airplanes or something? The paper airplanes would also be a really deep cut for an unused glitched object in GameCube Animal Crossing that has an extremely small but not impossible chance of appearing in your town due to a bit flip in the memory card data

I'm uncertain how well a move like that would read as a simple aerial, but it's a very cute idea. In general I like the idea of emphasizing Isabelle's job a little bit more, using office materials and such, since that's also in tune with Sakurai's initial proposal for the character as seen in this video.

Naturally the concepts behind these characters are susceptible to change, I recall an interview being posted the other day where Sakurai said Isabelle utilizing several of Villager's other moves was just the natural course the character took while developing them. And I suppose the "public property" bit still emphasizes itself through a couple existing moves, like the stop sign. But I'd like to see some small adjustments made to bring her more in line with this idea... like I dunno, dropping her clipboard instead of the vase for her dash attack and papers scatter all over. She doesn't have to change a whole lot.

 

[TheQuester]

I could see an indie character like Shovel Knight, Shantae, or Sans making it into the base game. (also, Rayman would be nice) Ryu Hayabusa also seems like he could work as a base game character

I would be legit surprised if we don't get a indie character next game tbh.
People seem to think it's unlikely we'll get one, but let's be honest here, indie characters would be extremely cheap to add and some of them have a big enough fanbase.

 

[kirbstr]

View attachment 388392

bottom text

Literally every new Stage, assist trophy, and item added to smash since Melee are from Dream Land, Adventure, Super Star, or Air Ride. Even the ****ing smash run and subspace enemies for the kirby series were from those games.

 

[fogbadge]

View attachment 388392

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it looks like kirby took the bite out of that guy

 

[SpecterFlower]

Of the ten best selling Kirby games of all time, Sakurai directed two of them. Star Allies was able to have 18 playable dream friend characters that were widely celebrated by fans and only 3 of them were created by Sakurai. The series has been well out of his shadow for close to 15 years.

Sakurai is just extremely biased towards the games he created. Dreamland 2, 3, and Crystal Shards were pretty much ignored in both Melee and Brawl though I know people like to pretend the only Kirby games that existed pre-2005 were made by him.

Canvas Curse and Squeak Squad were also promptly ignored in Brawl despite being the most recent Kirby games at the time. Obviously Smash 4 and Ultimate barely acknowledging the massive resurgence Kirby has had as a franchise in the 2010s is well known at this point.

Like, its actually crazy how every playable character, Item, Stage, and Assist trophy nearly EXCLUSIVELY reference games Sakurai directed for the series with how much its evolved from that period. Half the music tracks are from those games as well

furthermore most of the references to modern and non sakurai kirby in general is ports.

png's and wav's ripped straight form the games.

no other series is repped as badly, at least zelda has stages.

kirby is repped up til 2003 and everything after just isnt there. (not to mention half of the games before 2003 werent even sakurai made)

it needs a big focus next game.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Bandana Waddle Dee when?

I've said this before, but he and Dixie Kong were probably the only characters who I'm surprised didn't get into Ultimate, albeit more so Dixie.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Kinda?

The original MegaTen games were based on novels. Then those games spun off into SMT. Which later spun off into Persona.

Changed more.

If a character isn't an Echo, they should be completely unique.


Yes yes yes.

Personally i think Protoman would be a cooler choice for a Megaman Echo.

 

[Louie G.]

Even the ****ing smash run and subspace enemies for the kirby series were from those games.

Genuine question, which enemies would you have swapped out / swapped in instead?

There are a couple really specific ones in Smash Run, like Plasma Wisp and TAC, but a lot of them are just the standard (Waddle Dee, Doo, Gordo, Bronto Burt... etc). There are certainly new ones that could have been pulled from later titles but it's not as if the current games have abandoned the older enemy types, who are still the most prominent and consistent forces in the series.

I feel like arguing that something like Waddle Doo or a Parasol Waddle Dee are "Sakurai game enemies" is kind of disingenuous with that in mind, I particularly never really jive with that kind of argument because it rings the same way it does when someone says "there are only Sakurai era characters on the roster" and those characters are just the three most important characters in the series. Not that I disagree with the overall sentiment, I'm just splitting hairs a bit.

 

[MBRedboy31]

I'm uncertain how well a move like that would read as a simple aerial, but it's a very cute idea. In general I like the idea of emphasizing Isabelle's job a little bit more, using office materials and such, since that's also in tune with Sakurai's initial proposal for the character as seen in this video.

View attachment 388393

Naturally the concepts behind these characters are susceptible to change, I recall an interview being posted the other day where Sakurai said Isabelle utilizing several of Villager's other moves was just the natural course the character took while developing them. And I suppose the "public property" bit still emphasizes itself through a couple existing moves, like the stop sign. But I'd like to see some small adjustments made to bring her more in line with this idea... like I dunno, dropping her clipboard instead of the vase for her dash attack and papers scatter all over. She doesn't have to change a whole lot.

I think the easiest way to make the paper airplane animation readable is to exaggerate the throwing animation a bit. Like, have her swing her arm a significant distance to throw it, instead of the light push someone would use in real life. I’m imagining that she’d have her clipboard in her other hand, like she’s grabbing a piece of paper from it and somehow instantly turning it into a paper airplane and throwing it in one smooth motion.

 

[Gorgonzales]

I feel like Forgotten Land is too big too ignore, but even then I worry it'll get something very surface-level/superficial like Downtown Grassland (the very first area of the game) as a stage and basically nothing else aside from a few direct music rips from KatFL and whatever collectibles the next game has representing Elfilin. Even then I feel like the stage would only be there because of Nintendo mandating something from KatFL having to be included.

 

[ninjahmos]

I do wish we got more Non-Sakurai Kirby content from the Dark Matter Trilogy.

 

[SpecterFlower]

I feel like Forgotten Land is too big too ignore, but even then I worry it'll get something very surface-level/superficial like Downtown Grassland (the very first area of the game) as a stage and basically nothing else aside from a few direct music rips from KatFL and whatever collectibles the next game has representing Elfilin. Even then I feel like the stage would only be there because of Nintendo mandating something from KatFL having to be included.

Bandanna waddle dee is litteraly the player 2 and in the cutscenes.

mid he doesn’t get in the enxt game that’s just stupid.

like I’m pretty sure everyone can agree he by far is the most deserving 1st party to get in from a old series.

maybe impa but other than that idk

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

I’ve never understood the argument that movesets with lots of references are inherently bad. One of the most exciting parts of crossovers for me is that characters can bring their unique abilities and playstyles into a new game. I like when the character actually feels like the character and not a mostly made up moveset that could have been given to just about anyone just because it technically works and the character “could” do those things.

To be honest, I also think that references, while important, should not be prioritized over coherent moveset design, but most of the "too many references!" complaints read to me as "I have no idea how to play as Megaman/Villager/Banjo & Kazooie/whoever".

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I do wish we got more Non-Sakurai Kirby content from the Dark Matter Trilogy.

While not my most wanted Kirby newcomer, playable Dark Matter would be sick.

 

[Louie G.]

I feel like Forgotten Land is too big too ignore, but even then I worry it'll get something very surface-level/superficial like Downtown Grassland (the very first area of the game) as a stage and basically nothing else aside from a few direct music rips from KatFL and whatever collectibles the next game has representing Elfilin. Even then I feel like the stage would only be there because of Nintendo mandating something from KatFL having to be included.

I really hope they shoot for Wondaria, it's a real standout level and still early enough in the game where most people would probably be familiar with it. I wouldn't really mind Downtown Grassland either since the vine-coated skyscrapers and whatnot are still very striking imagery, but an abandoned amusement park like Wondaria or maybe Alivel Mall conveys a similar message about Forgotten Land's identity and theme and just does it in a way we haven't seen before.

Still, I'll be glad to see anything from Forgotten Land. I feel like lingering on "well Sakurai was probably forced to do it" and stuff like that already kind of gets to a point of speculation that isn't really healthy. Not that we can't nitpick and criticize, but getting a full stage and a number of dynamic tracks from the game would be a major step up from what we've been getting and up to par with how most active series are usually treated.

Here's hoping they go for something more interesting anyway and we don't even need to have that conversation - Green Greens adjacent stages are played out however you cut it, but unfortunately that kind of thematic redundancy is a problem that plagues more than just Kirby. If I see a drop of lava in that inevitable Metroid Dread stage I'm going to be pretty disappointed.

like I’m pretty sure everyone can agree he by far is the most deserving 1st party to get in from a old series.

Well, Toad and Tom Nook come to mind first. But Bandana Dee isn’t too far behind.

 

[SpecterFlower]

I really hope they shoot for Wondaria, it's a real standout level and still early enough in the game where most people would probably be familiar with it. I wouldn't really mind Downtown Grassland either since the vine-coated skyscrapers and whatnot are still very striking imagery, but an abandoned amusement park like Wondaria or maybe Alivel Mall conveys a similar message about Forgotten Land's identity and theme and just does it in a way we haven't seen before.

Still, I'll be glad to see anything from Forgotten Land. I feel like lingering on "well Sakurai was probably forced to do it" and stuff like that already kind of gets to a point of speculation that isn't really healthy. Not that we can't nitpick and criticize, but getting a full stage and a number of dynamic tracks from the game would be a major step up from what we've been getting and up to par with how most active series are usually treated.

Here's hoping they go for something more interesting anyway and we don't even need to have that conversation - Green Greens adjacent stages are played out however you cut it, but unfortunately that kind of thematic redundancy is a problem that plagues more than just Kirby. If I see a drop of lava in that inevitable Metroid Dread stage I'm going to be pretty disappointed.



Well, Toad and Tom Nook come to mind first. But Bandana Dee isn’t too far behind.

I think captain toad will be how rod gets in, as a unqiue character.

 

[Gengar84]

To be honest, I also think that references, while important, should not be prioritized over coherent moveset design, but most of the "too many references!" complaints read to me as "I have no idea how to play as Megaman/Villager/Banjo & Kazooie/whoever".

Oh yeah, I totally agree that the priority should be on making a fun moveset that plays well, I just don’t think that’s mutually exclusive to making a faithful adaptation of the character that references abilities they actually used in their games. There’s nothing wrong with having a few more complex characters here and there as long as they’re still easy to play at a base level but harder to master.

 

[superprincess]

So, do you guys think that Isabelle is unique enough, or should she be changed more?

She's in a weird in between state where she feels too similar to Villager, having moves that work and look pretty much the same as Villager's, but her unique stuff stands out too much to really fit in with the usual cohesion of semi-clones (e.g. Fox/Falco side special may function differently, but it looks similar to denote that the two moves are related). Isabelle just feels half-complete to me.

Animal Crossing has a lot of potential items that Villager and Isabelle don't already use, so the latter could really afford to become a little more unique. If there's a series that can get away with the (usually bad) idea of summoning props out of hammerspace, it's Animal Crossing. Have her use a handbag, the bubble blower, a fan, could even do something funny like an air conditioner windbox or spilling Brewster's coffee on her opponents.

Also, gosh, give her her damn voice... Animalese is extremely iconic to the series and Isabelle being completely mute in Smash is honestly mind boggling. She might be the single most talkative character on the roster alongside the FE crew. If Mario Kart 8 could pull it off, Smash can as well.

 

[kirbstr]

Genuine question, which enemies would you have swapped out / swapped in instead?

There are a couple really specific ones in Smash Run, like Plasma Wisp and TAC, but a lot of them are just the standard (Waddle Dee, Doo, Gordo, Bronto Burt... etc). There are certainly new ones that could have been pulled from later titles but it's not as if the current games have abandoned the older enemy types, who are still the most prominent and consistent forces in the series.

I feel like arguing that something like Waddle Doo or a Parasol Waddle Dee are "Sakurai game enemies" is kind of disingenuous with that in mind, I particularly never really jive with that kind of argument because it rings the same way it does when someone says "there are only Sakurai era characters on the roster" and those characters are just the three most important characters in the series. Not that I disagree with the overall sentiment, I'm just splitting hairs a bit.

Tac and Plasma Wisp, both only ever appearing in KSS and KSSU at the time, over classic Kirby enemies like Bouncy, Gabon, Mumbies, and Nruff.

They're just basic enemies in a side mode, but its symbolic of the larger treatment the Kirby series gets.

 

[ninjahmos]

All I ask for if we get Dante is that he comes with the Devil Trigger song. Ideally, I’d take Nero too because I’m a big Johnny Yong Bosch fan but Dante probably makes more sense if we only get one character (which I don’t at all expect a second).

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I dunno, I still think Devils Never Cry would be more fitting for Dante's reveal. I mean, it's basically THE theme for Dante and Devil May Cry as a whole.

 

[7NATOR]

Okay so here's what could be considered a hot take here

I think there will be more 3rd Party Newcomers in the Base game than 1st Party ones, for the first time in the series

If every Smash game represents the landscape of what the fans would want, then this would check out. While there are still popular 1st party Characters that people do want to see, I think this is the first time where the 3rd party characters I think Dominate in terms of requests

Smash 4 you could argue too considering both Sora and Banjo, as well as characters like Simon and the return of Snake, but I think during that era it was more competetive with characters like K.Rool, Ridley, Wolf, Inkling, Ice Climbers, as well as the characters we haven't gotten yet. Right now, I think besides Bandana Dee, Waluigi, and Isaac (and maybe Dixie too and another Zelda character), 3rd Party characters I typically see at the top

I know there's the Licensing, but I always remember that Nintendo...Has...MONEY, and I think they will be willing to use it. I also think because Smash as a franchise as well as Nintendo's I.P's are at some of the highest values seen yet, it will be easier to make sure everything works out

 

[Louie G.]

Okay so here's what could be considered a hot take here

I think there will be more 3rd Party Newcomers in the Base game than 1st Party ones, for the first time in the series

I don't think this is realistic. Third parties are prime DLC material regardless, so even if some of these negotiations are made / begin early I think several of them will just be more efficient for both parties to sell later. There are still plenty of first party characters worth adding and base roster is the optimal time to build on already represented Nintendo series (Mario, Zelda, Animal Crossing...), and act on smaller scale fan requests (Golden Sun, Rhythm Heaven...).

At that point it's less about how much money Nintendo has to throw around, more that it's still in their best interest to show off their own characters too. Most of those funds would probably go toward keeping certain existing third party characters around rather than going for big out-there picks right away.

I think we may see more third party newcomers than we have in the past but like... not by THAT much. The furthest I'm seeing is a couple new third party universes on top of new characters from Sonic, Street Fighter and/or Castlevania. Realistically that's gonna be like 4-5 characters out of 12-16.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Nintendo...Has...MONEY

Money that has to be spent on things besides Smash.

 

[7NATOR]

I don't think this is realistic. Third parties are prime DLC material regardless, so even if some of these negotiations are made / begin early I think several of them will just be more efficient for both parties to sell later. There are still plenty of first party characters worth adding and base roster is the optimal time to build on already represented Nintendo series (Mario, Zelda, Animal Crossing...), and act on smaller scale fan requests (Golden Sun, Rhythm Heaven...).

I think we may see more third party newcomers than we have in the past but like... not by THAT much. The furthest I'm seeing is a couple new third party universes on top of new characters from Sonic, Street Fighter and/or Castlevania. Realistically that's gonna be like 4-5 characters out of 12-16.

And I do think we will see newcomers from Franchises like Mario and Zelda, as well as from some New I.Ps like Golden Sun and Rhythm Heaven. There are still Nintendo Characters worth adding and I think we will see that become a fruition both in the Base Roster and DLC

I just think the focus will actually be on the 3rd party Franchises in this game, even in the Base roster. It's where more of the potential inclusions lie in my opinion, And I also think the circumstances also line up for this to be attempted by Nintendo/Sakurai. I just think the main factor is that Smash Ultimate sold so well, and Nintendo as a whole has been able to dominate when it comes to sales of their Hardware and their Software, so I think now would be prime time to attempt such an ambitious crossover, even in the base game, because other parties involved have more reason to join the battle than ever before

Beyond Byleth, Most of the characters Nintendo had picked were the 3rd party characters, and going by how Sakurai chooses things, the 3rd party characters are overall more popular at this moment in time and have more material to work with in regards to different game mechanics and such.

 

[superprincess]

Give the Echo/Semi-clone status to Viridi. Let Medusa have her own moveset. One that fits with her outright punching off the head of a god.

Viridi is much shorter than Palutena and has a very different demeanor, can't work.

 

[smashkirby]

Even though I’m all like “3rd party is the future rahh”

I find 1st party stuff way more exiting to speculate cause you can really get the oddballs in (as seen with min min and pirhana plant)

meanwhile for third party it’s the mc and it loosely just follows sales and impact on the industry (with a touch of marketing)

I just find it boring to speculate, “the next character is monster hunter cause it sold well” duh,

even though I like 3rd party inclusions more.

thinking about jimmy T or Ashley getting in is a lot more fun, at least for me personally. Feels like there’s a lot more opportunity to get nicher things.

This about sums up my feelings on speculation regarding "oddball predictions" and all. Well, partially. I'm also more partial to this because I just straight-up have more of an enjoyment for Nintendo's own stuff than most 3rd party stuff either way.

Bandana Waddle Dee when?

I've said this before, but he and Dixie Kong were probably the only characters who I'm surprised didn't get into Ultimate, albeit more so Dixie.

Guess we're birds of a feather then, because that's been my exact same thoughts ever since Ultimate wrapped up character development. Well, I guess in my case, you could throw Chun-Li in there among them, but I felt as though I could sort of understand her absence a tad more at the time (Unique 3rd party and all)/

 

[DarthEnderX]

Personally i think Protoman would be a cooler choice for a Megaman Echo.

I prefer Bass because I like to get more villain representation whenever possible

Also, Protoman's MO of "teleporting in, ****ing around for a bit, then peacing out" makes him perfect for an AT. He should replace Zero's AT when Zero becomes a Fighter. Complete with his little whistle when he appears.

I dunno, I still think Devils Never Cry would be more fitting for Dante's reveal.

I don't think he was suggesting that Devil Trigger be DMC's ONLY song. Just one of them.

I think there will be more 3rd Party Newcomers in the Base game than 1st Party ones, for the first time in the series

In the BASE game? Ehhh, I dunno man. I'm the biggest 3P booster around and even I don't think that's likely.

Now, if you were to tell me the DLC newcomers were ALL 3P next game? I might believe that.

Money that has to be spent on things besides Smash.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Do remember that DLC is not a thing from the start. Characters are going to be already prepared for base. One isn't going to already be planned for DLC. The only way one will make it as DLC is if the negotiations take so long while trying to come up with base that it doesn't finish until DLC is already greenlit. And the sole example of that actually is Steve/Alex. It's not common.

They're effectively two different things. This isn't like other games. Any characters they want for DLC will start negotiations later once it's greenlit. Anyone they want for base is going to already be base by default. And we're not going to get a massive amount of 3rd parties for base just like that. Realistically, many will be negotiated for DLC(once it's greenlit, anyway).

---------

To go back to the Proximity Mine thing, it really only worked out because it was a first party original item that wasn't 100% game-related by design(R.O.B. is another case). Once it became third party, it was killed on the spot. So yes, licensing is the core reason, and it's a pure outlier for any content related to a non-gaming 3rd party. But you also have to remember that it was a R.O.B. situation, who as a character, isn't strictly from gaming, but also doubles as a Toy directly. It's both been sold as one and it's an important part of its history.

Nintendo had ownership in Rareware at the time. If they didn't, that would be a third party item, and it only borders as one in the same way Pokemon would. That is, not fully owned by Nintendo so they're negotiations/specific nuances to always work with. Not unlike any other regular third party. Key difference is that said Proximity Mine also appeared in Perfect Dark, so it was also tied to a game-original IP enough that it was even less of an issue that it could've been. If it wasn't, honestly? It probably would not have shown up since at no point was Sakurai actually okay with non-gaming 3rd party(as in the core origin of the franchise itself) hard content(Brawl Chronicle doesn't legitimately count as this either. It's just information. A Spirit is hard content. An item is too. Or a song, etc.) The key term is also 3rd party. That's actually where it came too much with James Bond as a concept, which he didn't consider even as playable so much as noted outright why he's not a reasonable option. When it comes to stuff not fully being from a video game franchise, it's only because Nintendo owned it did it ever actually show up. This was the actual exception to it. So no, we aren't getting someone like Geralt. He's still the same character, just re-adapted a bit overall for the games to make them more fun(him being stronger makes sense. He's the protagonist for cripes' sake).

Geralt is entirely an Android 21 situation. It's a non-game IP first and foremost.

-----------

As for Shin Megami Tensei, I actually misread it earlier. It's a spin-off of Megami Tensei itself(the specific games, not the overlying franchise term of MegaTen), and that's directly sequeled from the novels of Digital Devil Saga. Those games are 3rd party non-game series. SMT is a very direct spin-off and borderline. It's unclear if this is why it has no content, since it does still reasonably stay with the universe. Persona completely is unrelated to the Novels in every way, though. Hence, it's 100% a gaming IP. SMT is borderline. Megami Tensei really is not a borderline case. Also, the fact that Persona is its own thing even moreso in Japan may just be they didn't want to license another franchise for content and that's it. SMT being borderline may have zero relevance at the time. Or at any time, really.

 

[Ivander]

Viridi is much shorter than Palutena and has a very different demeanor, can't work.

That's why I also said Semi-clone. And her demeanor is not that different from Palutena. Sure, Viridi is an antagonist between Chapter 11 and 14, but when she's an ally, she pretty much has the same helpful info as Palutena and the sass when it comes to sassing Pit(which in KI:U, Palutena does quite alot). Not to mention that Viridi can actually use all of Palutena's Specials and Powers. And if you make her a Semi-clone, that could allow her to utilise the Custom Specials that Palutena doesn't have, like Jump Glide, Super Speed, etc.
Aside from a Warp spell, all of Medusa's other attacks she uses are unique to her, from snake hair and eye lasers, electric laser fence-like spells, a shadow-powered claw swipe that she crushes down, and as I said before, she has literally punched off the head of a god. And if taking the original Kid Icarus into account, she can also utilise eye shockwaves and Thanatos in his snake form. If any KI character has the different demeanor from Palutena, it's Medusa. Palutena is about being defensive and supportive. Medusa is all about power, brute strength and a barrage of constant attacks.

 

[Quillion]

"Recent stuff" is basically the bulk of what Smash typically promotes nowadays.

When it comes to bringing in newer franchises yes. Veteran franchises are rightfully focused on the older, more iconic stuff.

When that franchise has over half of the usable cast either tucked away behind optional collectibles, or in some cases completely absent, it becomes more and more difficult to look at Smash as a polished crossover in that regard.

Pokémon does it too.

Also, how does being offshoots of Sakurai's foundation invalidate the rest of the franchise's titles? Forgotten Land is definitely not the first to do this, or debatably the best example; it just sold the most. Last I checked, people usually don't come to Smash to specifically see a bestseller focus, but to see their favorite characters in a crossover franchise. Should it make a difference how much a game gets attention over the others due to selling numbers? I can name a number of previous titles selling higher than Super Star, with characters that'd make good Smash fits. If those titles never managed to break the mold, what makes Forgotten Land any different? If anything, I'd argue it could have less of a chance to mend the problem than usual; candidates in Forgotten Land are way scarcer, which mainly leaves miscellaneous content to offer in its place.

Look, I have the utmost respect for Kumazaki for taking the franchise to new heights.

But even he doesn't let his additions to the Kirby franchise overshadow what Sakurai laid down. He only lets it be a "sequel gimmick" akin to Pokémon's Z-moves or D-max or Zelda's wolf form or sailing at most.

Heck, even after the Dark Matter Trilogy made concurrently with Sakurai's tenure, the concepts in that series still gave way to what Sakurai laid down.