Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Wonder Smash]

Gimme 3rd party Scwarzeneggar and Stallone!

View attachment 388379

Along with 3rd party Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris!

 

[SpecterFlower]

Whether or not you agree with it, the common argument is that it took Forgotten Land to get out of the shadow of what Sakurai set down for Kirby.

And personally, I found that Forgotten Land made a lot of sacrifices in the 3D transition (at least at this time).

I don’t agree with it cause that’s dumb and not the case.

if you wanna argue sales super star ultra was the best selling Kirby game after the first.

and every main Kirby game afterwards outsold super star and adventure.

it’s not something to agree with or not, you’re literally wrong.

Kirby

Kirby is a platformer franchise developed by HAL Laboratory and published by Nintendo. The first game released in 1992 on the Game Boy. The franchise stars a young pink creature named Kirby as he fights to save his home planet by a variety of threats. As of March 2024, the Kirby franchise has...

vgsales.fandom.com

(Vgsales as a source bad but they aren’t a source for this[anything below 1mil is not reliable]

and if you are talking quality wise the newer ones are considered the better ones with the exception of super star.

not to mention modern Kirby is a merchandising monster, Kirby’s like Pokémon, the games exists just to sell plushies which make 10 times as much as the games do.

 

[Ivander]

And what about one with yellow fur?

Is there finally one with yellow fur? Or do we mean just one with yellow fur referencing SS? Which of course yes.

I don't really pay attention to DB, so I'm unaware of any Great Monkey forms aside from Goku's and Vegeta's standard forms.

 

[SpecterFlower]

Even though I’m all like “3rd party is the future rahh”

I find 1st party stuff way more exiting to speculate cause you can really get the oddballs in (as seen with min min and pirhana plant)

meanwhile for third party it’s the mc and it loosely just follows sales and impact on the industry (with a touch of marketing)

I just find it boring to speculate, “the next character is monster hunter cause it sold well” duh,

even though I like 3rd party inclusions more.

thinking about jimmy T or Ashley getting in is a lot more fun, at least for me personally. Feels like there’s a lot more opportunity to get nicher things.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Is there finally one with yellow fur? Or do we mean just one with yellow fur referencing SS? Which of course yes.

I don't really pay attention to DB, so I'm unaware of any Great Monkey forms aside from Goku's and Vegeta's standard forms.

I meant for SS purposes, but Baby from GT had a golden Ape form.

The original Broly also had a greenish Ape form in one of the games.

 

[ninjahmos]

I think it'd be pretty cool if they remixed more of the Smash 64, Melee and Brawl music. They could do remixes of the Bonus Stage, Meta Crystal, Duel Zone, Final Destination, Break The Targets and Menu 2.

 

[SpecterFlower]

But as far as 3rd parties go I hope to see a level 5 rep.

either inazuma eleven, professor Layton or yo Kai watch I’m fine with any.

it’s a company deeply intertwined with Nintendo at least in japan.

 

[osby]

I do wonder sometimes if the fanbase tends to be a lot more hard on the videogames only rule than Sakurai is. Like, whenever it comes up in an interview from the old Iwata Asks to recently, it's always like "yeah we aren't putting goku or iron man or spongebob in smash", which are the more extreme cases, but I have to wonder for certain series which have non-videogame origins but whose identity in videogames is what's most recognised. Would the dev team have put in Goofy and Donald if Disney gave them permission? I dunno, but I wouldn't be like that surprised if they did. Persona is already technically a non-videogame series, Sakurai even acknowledged in a recent video that SMT technically is a licensed series. I just wouldn't be surprised if there's a bit more flexibility there than expeccted.

Persona is technically a video game series because it's neither Digital Devil Story nor Shin Megami Tensei.

Like, what characters or concepts does it even share with Ni****ani's novels beyond having completely unrelated versions of some demons?

 

[Perkilator]

I have a question. For the FE series in Smash, do you want some cuts like Corrin, Roy, and sadly Chrom and only Marth, Ike, Lucina, Robin, and Byleth can stay? Or overhaul the FE roster?

I think reduce the vets to Marth, Ike, Robin and Byleth and leave slots open for other characters, FE or otherwise.

 

[Lionfranky]

Master Chief seems more of a end of pass character to me kind of like Sora, i don't think he'll be base game at all.

"Finish the Fight." is too good tagline to miss the last slot...

But, I wonder how Nintendo would view. Nintendo still greatly cares more about its home market. I don't know how much they would be hesitant to add someone who isn't big in Japan at the end of pass.

 

[dream1ng]

If Nintendo would otherwise add Chief in the first wave, or second (if this next game gets more than two), or basically any wave other than the last, they're not going to reschedule him all the way at the end simply for the sake of a tagline. There are so many more important factors than people going "hehhhhh cool" for a second about a pun. And then promptly forgetting about it because of the rest of the trailer.

Maybe they would put him last in whatever wave he's in, but even that is still giving so much importance to what is, in effect, wordplay. And wordplay Japan doesn't even get - they didn't get individual taglines, all they had were "[character] joins the fight!" or something to that effect. It's probably not Sakurai who came up with them, I don't think his English is proficient enough for wordplay. So that's gonna make it even less of a factor.

 

[fogbadge]

Whether or not you agree with it, the common argument is that it took Forgotten Land to get out of the shadow of what Sakurai set down for Kirby.

who argues this? forgotten land is the same formula we've had for kirby games since the wii. if they thought they were in the shadow of sakurai then forgotten land must be as well

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

Persona is technically a video game series because it's neither Digital Devil Story nor Shin Megami Tensei.

Like, what characters or concepts does it even share with Ni****ani's novels beyond having completely unrelated versions of some demons?

lol this board's auto-censor
That aside, Persona is basically completely removed from the original Digital Devil Story novels, it has a completely different setting and explanation for demons with a completely different cast of characters. That's sorta my point overall. Persona is a successor to SMT If both gameplay and story wise, with the protagonist of If showing up in Persona 1. SMT If is itself a direct spin-off of mainline SMT, which is a remake/reimagining of the original Megami Tensei games so Atlus could keep their brand. That's obvs like 4 layers of separation, and I think it would be silly to dismiss Persona as not being a videogame franchise on such a loose basis, but I'm saying that Persona has its roots in a non-videogame franchise in a way that I'd say is markedly different from like, Mario being based on Popeye for example. I'm just using it to say that I think there's some flexibility, and that it'd be silly to be super hard on specific aspects of certain franchises not coming from videogames are having non-videogame roots, because in a lot of cases those lines are somwhat blurred.

I also bring it up cause Sakurai himself seems to recognise Persona as such, or at least mainline SMT. Outright including a non-videogame character as playable is clearly a few steps beyond Persona, but I think it's at least worth considering the possibility that certain edge cases might have a bit of leeway instead of complete dismissal.

 

[Gengar84]

Even though I’m all like “3rd party is the future rahh”

I find 1st party stuff way more exiting to speculate cause you can really get the oddballs in (as seen with min min and pirhana plant)

meanwhile for third party it’s the mc and it loosely just follows sales and impact on the industry (with a touch of marketing)

I just find it boring to speculate, “the next character is monster hunter cause it sold well” duh,

even though I like 3rd party inclusions more.

thinking about jimmy T or Ashley getting in is a lot more fun, at least for me personally. Feels like there’s a lot more opportunity to get nicher things.

That’s one reason I’d love to get some representation from smaller third party IP’s as playable characters. Classic games like Killer Instinct and Chrono Trigger aren’t really huge blockbusters but they were pretty significant to Nintendo’s history. Other, more recently active franchises like Disgaea or Octopath Traveller would be fun too. We should still keep getting the massively popular ones too but it would be nice for a bit of a mix-up to keep things interesting.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

That’s one reason I’d love to get some representation from smaller third party IP’s as playable characters. Classic games like Killer Instinct and Chrono Trigger aren’t really huge blockbusters but they were pretty significant to Nintendo’s history. Other, more recently active franchises like Disgaea or Octopath Traveller would be fun too. We should still keep getting the massively popular ones too but it would be nice for a bit of a mix-up to keep things interesting.

Chrono Trigger definitely had a pretty big impact, to be fair. The issue, not unlike what I say below, is that despite being quite a big game for its time, it didn't really continue as a franchise. It got a sequel that wasn't nearly as popular, and then a remake way later. Ironically, KI, despite having less impact in total, still had a lot more overall products. Then again, Square-Enix overall releases a crapload of games, so the competition is a bit higher within its own companies. Rareware had nowhere near as many, nor other Fighting Games, so they're pretty different situations. It sucks they didn't continue the Chrono franchise, though.

Killer Instinct you think would, due to what they actually brought in, but it always was in the shadow of many others. It introduced the core factor of how Announcer Chatter works, but also the Combo Breaker. While combos were officially designated as a term in Killer Instinct first too, I won't pretend it wasn't so damn common in other games that it actually introduced it entirely(officially, despite being a bug, Street Fighter did it first). Besides that, stuff like special combo names(Triple Combo, etc.) is from Killer Instinct first too(it's related to the Announcer Chatter bit).

That said, it's not like we didn't at least get something that's based around Killer Instinct's style. Clayfighter is pretty much inspired heavily by it, with far more crazy characters, the same kind of announcer chatter, more silly finishing moves(KI still had some gruesome ones, but they were blatantly toned down from MK's style respectively). Clayfighter would make them more cartoony when it comes up, but some games also were at the point within its particular designs that justified a high rating anyway(Sumo Santa is a good reason why it hit stuff like M. To be fair, it wasn't as big of a deal till the n64 era).

I think it's more safe to say that KI didn't spawn nearly as many similar concepts as MK and SF did, hence why it's not as easily remembered. Coupled with having way less games, being owned by a company who has gone third party after the 3rd overall game(technically, the second, but only because the Game Boy and SNES games, while both based upon the Arcade games, are very very different to begin with. Unlike Smash 3DS and Wii U, they were actually outright separated due to heavy limitations and even different rosters. It's probably more comparable to Street Fighter II and Super Street Fighter II, if you will. Not exactly, since one's more of an updated re-release, whereas the SNES game was basically an updated port of the Arcade game while the Game Boy one is a downgraded port, but you get the idea of what I mean about differences).

Unrelated, but I do remember hearing a rumor about another port of Killer Instinct 2013, but who knows what's going on with that.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Wait...Shin Megami Tensei is a fourth party series?

 

[Laniv]

Don't get me wrong, I would GENUINELY love for Yuyuki's Goku to be a playable character in Smash Bros., no question about that. But if he DOES somehow make it in?

Man, Sakurai had better take that opportunity to absolutely push the legal envelope however he can about this not being THAT Goku joining Smash.
Like, in Yuyuki-Goku's reveal trailer? I want all sorts of vague Dragon Ball-like iconography to show up in said reveal trailer and maybe even have Yuyuki-Goku pull what would basically be the ultimate version of King K. Rool/Banjo and Kazooie's reveal on us, having his flying cloud and Power Pole-like weapon in hand.

ALL of the bonus points would also go to Sakurai and the Smash Bros. dev team, if they can somehow get Masako Nozawa herself in on this bit, and have her not only voice Yuyuki-Goku in Smash, but also say in his reveal trailer: 'Heya! I'm (Son) Goku!'

They need to have him fighting Erdrick if he comes back. Maybe have him hold a mysterious-looking orb, only to turn it around to reveal it's a Smash Ball...

"Ossu! Ora Goku!"

 

[Stratos]

The Turok series although started as a comic book series, his video game series has become more famous and because of this Turok is for some one of the most sought after fourth-party/non-video game characters to come as a newcomer to the Super Smash Bros. series. However, I still say that the beauty of the Super Smash Bros. series is that it doesn't accept non-video game characters.

 

[Garteam]

And yet....literally only the Motion-Sensor Bomb got in. Something original to the game and not part of the film it's based on or the novel.

Do you see any acknowledgment of James Bond himself or any other aspect of the IP in 64 or Melee? No. In fact Melee goes out of the way to scrub any references to the source game, treating it as a generic item.

Sakurai never referenced James Bond as being from another medium as inherently problematic, though. He said the issue with Bond being a film character is because they'd have get Pierce Brosnan's likeness and it makes obtaining the rights to Goldeneye generally more difficult. He didn't mention anything about Bond's inclusion inherently crossing some limit of what Smash is. We don't know what treatment Goldeneye would have gotten had Sakurai gotten the global rights necessary for its inclusion.

We have Sakurai's reasons for excluding Bond back in the day. There's no reference to Smash being a gaming crossover and every reference to Bond as a character from another medium is because its instrumentally problematic, rather than being an intrinsic issue. He might feel differently about this two decades later, but it really seems like he was at least willing to humour the idea of a video game's depiction of a book character once, even if he later dismissed the idea for a variety of reasons.

Also, didn't you dismiss this logic when it was being used to advocate for Android 21?

I don't think Android 21 is eligible either, but that's because FighterZ is much more derivative and associated with the original Dragon Ball manga/anime than The Witcher and Goldeneye are with their books, which themselves are somewhat iffy. I don't think Sakurai necessarily cares about whether the individual elements included from a work originate strictly from a video game, it's more whether the video game as a whole is distinct enough from other works and notable enough on its own to be considered a game franchise.

 

[Deleted member]

meanwhile for third party it’s the mc and it loosely just follows sales and impact on the industry (with a touch of marketing)

Sorry but i disagree here.
I wasn't expecting Simon, Joker, Terry and Sephiroth to get in at all when Ultimate was announced lol. 3rd parties definitely can throw curveballs or lesser expected choices, i think specially now that Nintendo is more willing to add 3rd parties than before.
Also, none of the 1st parties added in Ultimate were particulary shocking except Piranha Plant and maaaaybe MinMin....it really depends of the number of newcomers they'll add in the base game, if we get 8 or less, i doubt there will be many surprise newcomers, if there's 14 or so, then chances increase.

 

[Perkilator]

I made a bingo card for potential first party inclusions in the next game.

 

[Gengar84]

I made a bingo card for potential first party inclusions in the next game.
View attachment 388384

Kinda sad to see Dixie Kong and Impa left off that list but most of these seem pretty reasonable. If we get another Xenoblade 2 character for some reason, I’m personally pulling for Nia over Rex.

 

[SpecterFlower]

I made a bingo card for potential first party inclusions in the next game.
View attachment 388384

If it’s Sigurd I want him on horseback 24/7

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So, do you guys think that Isabelle is unique enough, or should she be changed more?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

So, do you guys think that Isabelle is unique enough, or should she be changed more?

Yes.

She is unambiguously a semi-clone, but her kit doesn't feel super cohesive.

 

[Gorgonzales]

So, do you guys think that Isabelle is unique enough, or should she be changed more?

She could definitely be pushed further, personality-wise. I think she should keep some Villager elements like Pocket and Up-B, but the klutz-fu direction could be expanded upon.

I remember hearing an idea to make her Jab pull out a clipboard and have her poke her opponent with the blunt end of a pen to sign it. Stuff like that would make her probably the most endearing character in the roster. Right now it's a weird almost-but-not-quite-there approach where she still directly attacks you with stuff like toy hammers and the slingshot. What she has is fine, but for her to be great they should commit and go all the way in making everything she does accidental.

Isabelle feels like a character that shouldn't know she's even in a fight until the match is over.

 

[Sucumbio]

So, do you guys think that Isabelle is unique enough, or should she be changed more?

I'm good with her current design. I actually prefer it to villager despite villager being the older character. Her kit just seems to be more cohesive to me.

 

[Louie G.]

So, do you guys think that Isabelle is unique enough, or should she be changed more?

I’d really like her to be changed more, although I’m not sure how practical it is. Mostly I don’t love how reliant she is on the slingshot - since it’s such a safe approach tool, you’re often using it the exact same way Villager would and it homogenizes their gameplay.

Other derivative semiclone characters like Falco or Lucas avoid this because their shared attacks operate with different, often directly opposite properties. Isabelle’s combat-centric specials are completely original in function, but what she shares with Villager is so similar and so important to her kit that she ends up feeling more derivative than those other two.

I’m not sure what I’d suggest it get changed into, quite frankly I’m not counting much on it because she would have to be rebalanced entirely to accommodate for losing it. But I dunno, if we need the slingshot maybe it can at least launch at different angles, bring opponents closer, etc. I also agree with Gorgonzales’ suggestions to further emphasize Isabelle’s identity and personality, although I’d like her to keep the squeaky hammer. It’s too cute!

And perhaps if further emphasis was given toward Isabelle luring opponents in, trapping them etc which her special kit already helps endorse… let her smash attacks be stronger. F-Smash and U-Smash aren’t nearly powerful enough to accommodate for their pitiful range. Either that or improve their hitboxes - I love them so much conceptually and just wish they were more reliable, or better worth the risk / reward.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

...her kit doesn't feel super cohesive.

Her kit just seems to be more cohesive to me.

The duality of man. lol

 

[Perkilator]

On a similar note, what other Echoes or semi-clones do you want to see changed more? I’ve already said how I want Daisy’s specials in the next game to pull from Wonder.

 

[Garteam]

I made a bingo card for potential first party inclusions in the next game.
View attachment 388384

If it’s Sigurd I want him on horseback 24/7

Marth (with a Lucina echo), Sigurd, Ike, Robin, and Byleth would be a pretty amazing set of Fire Emblem characters. I like Roy, Chrom, and Corrin, but Genealogy is just an amazing game that has historically not been given what it deserves in Smash. Bonus points if Seliph is an echo or alt.

That being said, Smash rarely references remakes, so I don't know how likely this is even if an FE4 remake is an early Switch 2 title. I really hope Sakurai goes for Sigurd anyways, though.

In terms of the overall bingo card, it's really well done and I like that you included a handful of unconventional ideas (Porky and EMMI, mainly). The only thing I'd disagree with is K. K. Slider over Tom Nook, but I could see the merits behind Slider generally.

 

[Quillion]

I'm good with her current design. I actually prefer it to villager despite villager being the older character. Her kit just seems to be more cohesive to me.

How are either of them cohesive at all?

They both subscribe to the "random references" approach to moveset design, and that's as far as their "cohesion" goes.

 

[Gorgonzales]

On a similar note, what other Echoes or semi-clones do you want to see changed more? I’ve already said how I want Daisy’s specials in the next game to pull from Wonder.

Daisy, 100%. I want her to have an aggressive zone-breaker playstyle, and having a special where she blows a bubble that can eat a projectile would be a great way of helping her achieve that, since she can run up behind it to help her approach game.

Replace float with a Boosting Spin Jump, have her be more physical for some attacks by throwing out more punches and kicks, and give her the grappling vine (it really suits her plant motif) and she'd be tremendously improved.

 

[SpecterFlower]

Sorry but i disagree here.
I wasn't expecting Simon, Joker, Terry and Sephiroth to get in at all when Ultimate was announced lol. 3rd parties definitely can throw curveballs or lesser expected choices, i think specially now that Nintendo is more willing to add 3rd parties than before.
Also, none of the 1st parties added in Ultimate were particulary shocking except Piranha Plant and maaaaybe MinMin....it really depends of the number of newcomers they'll add in the base game, if we get 8 or less, i doubt there will be many surprise newcomers, if there's 14 or so, then chances increase.

I was talking about the next game.

I agree with you that a lot were unexpected but post sora nothings really unexpected from a 3rd party imo.

Like oh wow is crash bandicoot and Leon Kennedy who could have seen the best selling horrorgame and Mario’s old rival , that’s so surprising.

stuff that would be more interesting is something totally irrelevant like sly cooper or katamari imo.

they aren’t big sellers and had no impact on the industry or any special relationship with Nintendo.

but they won’t do those for crossovers as those are much more focused on maximizing profits inherently by having other companies with vested interest wanting it to sell well.

 

[Gorgonzales]

How are either of them cohesive at all?

They both subscribe to the "random references" approach to moveset design, and that's as far as their "cohesion" goes.

AC is one of the few cases where a reference-based moveset works. It's a very "thing"-oriented series (rather than focusing on what the characters themselves can inherently do), and it's not like these characters have much to fight with on their own.

Most characters can get by without heavy reliance on references, but I think heavy reference kits can actually be a strength if you use them very sparingly and only design them for characters where the main focus of their games is making use of a wide variety of tools / items. It's how I'd design a Worms character for Smash.

 

[kirbstr]

Whether or not you agree with it, the common argument is that it took Forgotten Land to get out of the shadow of what Sakurai set down for Kirby.

And personally, I found that Forgotten Land made a lot of sacrifices in the 3D transition (at least at this time).

Of the ten best selling Kirby games of all time, Sakurai directed two of them. Star Allies was able to have 18 playable dream friend characters that were widely celebrated by fans and only 3 of them were created by Sakurai. The series has been well out of his shadow for close to 15 years.

Sakurai is just extremely biased towards the games he created. Dreamland 2, 3, and Crystal Shards were pretty much ignored in both Melee and Brawl though I know people like to pretend the only Kirby games that existed pre-2005 were made by him.

Canvas Curse and Squeak Squad were also promptly ignored in Brawl despite being the most recent Kirby games at the time. Obviously Smash 4 and Ultimate barely acknowledging the massive resurgence Kirby has had as a franchise in the 2010s is well known at this point.

Like, its actually crazy how every playable character, Item, Stage, and Assist trophy nearly EXCLUSIVELY reference games Sakurai directed for the series with how much its evolved from that period. Half the music tracks are from those games as well

 

[ninjahmos]

On a similar note, what other Echoes or semi-clones do you want to see changed more? I’ve already said how I want Daisy’s specials in the next game to pull from Wonder.

Honestly, Dark Samus. If the next game uses Samus' Dread design and makes one small change to her moveset, they might do something similar for Dark Samus.

On a slightly unrelated note, Bass would definitely make a good Echo for Mega Man, along with Zack for Cloud.

 

[Quillion]

AC is one of the few cases where a reference-based moveset works. It's a very "thing"-oriented series (rather than focusing on what the characters themselves can inherently do), and it's not like these characters have much to fight with on their own.

Most characters can get by without heavy reliance on references, but I think heavy reference kits can actually be a strength if you use them very sparingly and only design them for characters where the main focus of their games is making use of a wide variety of tools / items. It's how I'd design a Worms character for Smash.

Fair argument, but even that can only go so far.

Like any game protagonist with an access to a wide variety of weapons (like say Dark Souls) could theoretically have a "random references" moveset, but that would be annoying to look at.

Of the ten best selling Kirby games of all time, Sakurai directed two of them. Star Allies was able to have 18 playable dream friend characters that were widely celebrated by fans and only 3 of them were created by Sakurai. The series has been well out of his shadow for close to 15 years.

Sakurai is just extremely biased towards the games he created. Dreamland 2, 3, and Crystal Shards were pretty much ignored in both Melee and Brawl though I know people like to pretend the only Kirby games that existed pre-2005 were made by him.

Canvas Curse and Squeak Squad were also promptly ignored in Brawl despite being the most recent Kirby games at the time. Obviously Smash 4 and Ultimate barely acknowledging the massive resurgence Kirby has had as a franchise in the 2010s is well known at this point.

Like, its actually crazy how every playable character, Item, Stage, and Assist trophy nearly EXCLUSIVELY reference games Sakurai directed for the series with how much its evolved from that period. Half the music tracks are from those games as well

Meh, the idea that Sakurai is obligated to reference "recent stuff" in any franchise is nonsensical in general.

Especially since much of the "recent stuff" ends up being one-off and gives way to the "old stuff" in the end. I'll point out the Zelda one-shot characters again.

 

[kirbstr]

I made a bingo card for potential first party inclusions in the next game.
View attachment 388384

Half of these are way less realistic than some obvious ones you left out like Tom Nook, Dixie Kong, Squid Sisters, and a Zelda Champion

 

[ninjahmos]

I think Black Shadow would make a good Echo for Captain Falcon.