Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[LiveStudioAudience]

Smash 6 introduces the multi-media video game pack where we get various third-party characters... in the form of their other media adaptations.

-Live action Billy and Jimmy from the 1994 Double Dragon
-Sindel from Mortal Kombat Annihilation
-M Bison from the 1994 Street Fighter
-Link from the DIC LoZ cartoon
-Coke snorting Rayman from Captain Laserhawk

 

[HyperSomari64]

Smash 6 introduces the multi-media video game pack where we get various third-party characters... in the form of their other media adaptations.

-Live action Billy and Jimmy from the 1994 Double Dragon
-Sindel from Mortal Kombat Annihilation
-M Bison from the 1994 Street Fighter
-Link from the DIC LoZ cartoon
-Coke snorting Rayman from Captain Laserhawk

Link is first-party.

 

[Jave]

Link is first-party.

The specific design of Link from the old LoZ cartoon is not owned by Nintendo.

(Not that they care)

 

[Garteam]

Geralt is the one non-gaming character I could see maybe being given an exception.

Castlevania and Persona are loosely based upon Dracula and Digital Devil Story: Megami Tensei, so there's some precedent for books not necessarily being completely excluded. I'd also say the games are generally well-known and distinct enough from the books to feel like a video game is still being adapted, as opposed to including something like SpongeBob or Dragon Ball where most people associate it with another medium. CD Projekt having the international rights to the game series is also helpful, as Sakurai has discussed different owners across various territories as an issue with getting non-game characters in the past IIRC.

I wouldn't really hold my breath for it though. Western third parties are described by Sakurai as being tough to pull off due to the language barrier between him and IP holders. While the Witcher 3 is considered one of the most technically impressive games on the Switch, I don't think Geralt has the support necessary to make it in. I think Dovahkinn is the much more likely option IMO.

On the subject of "probably ineligible for Smash but might be able to get in", I really hope we somehow get Marvel vs. Capcom music in the next Smash. Capcom owns the musical copyright and Disney is helping out anyways, so it's not impossible. There's literally a dozen good songs in every game from CotA to UMvC3 (sorry, Infinite).

 

[Quillion]

Smash Bros is probably the best video game crossover of all time, but it has competition - Fortnite is hot on it's trail.

I really don't think a game dedicated to the crossover aspect and a game with a lot of cross-promotional deals are comparable.

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

I do wonder sometimes if the fanbase tends to be a lot more hard on the videogames only rule than Sakurai is. Like, whenever it comes up in an interview from the old Iwata Asks to recently, it's always like "yeah we aren't putting goku or iron man or spongebob in smash", which are the more extreme cases, but I have to wonder for certain series which have non-videogame origins but whose identity in videogames is what's most recognised. Would the dev team have put in Goofy and Donald if Disney gave them permission? I dunno, but I wouldn't be like that surprised if they did. Persona is already technically a non-videogame series, Sakurai even acknowledged in a recent video that SMT technically is a licensed series. I just wouldn't be surprised if there's a bit more flexibility there than expeccted.


In other words, I'm just saying that when you think of the most iconic and beloved videogame franchises not yet in Smash, Tony Hawk's Pro Skater is always up there.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Link is first-party.

Easy fix; you make Link a bonus fighter for registering Smash 6 early and he's replaced in the DLC pack with the Captain N version of Alucard:

 

[Ivander]

You know, on the subject of troll and surprise picks. Do you think that, if Sakurai was given the okay and cooperation of a fellow 3rd Party, could he pull a Mr. Game & Watch/Wii Fit Trainer/Piranha Plant with a 3rd Party character? I mean, the most common surprise picks we speculate about are:

• A character who's game does not show them much as a fighter, but Sakurai somehow makes them into a fighter. EG. Wii Fit Trainer, Ayumi Tachibana, etc.
• A Classical character that hasn't seen any new games or a character comprised of various games from NES or older. EG. Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B., Duck Hunt, etc.
• A very out-there pick that isn't a main character or popular character. EG. Piranha Plant, another Nintendo Mook, etc.

But nobody has speculated the thought of madlad Sakurai somehow getting the okay and cooperation of a 3rd Party company to get in a specific 3rd Party character that nobody was expecting had any chances. Sure, it's an incredibly small chance, but one minute ago, some people were quite adamant that Sora could never get in due to Disney. We tend to get surprised one way or another.

 

[Quillion]

I do wonder sometimes if the fanbase tends to be a lot more hard on the videogames only rule than Sakurai is. Like, whenever it comes up in an interview from the old Iwata Asks to recently, it's always like "yeah we aren't putting goku or iron man or spongebob in smash", which are the more extreme cases, but I have to wonder for certain series which have non-videogame origins but whose identity in videogames is what's most recognised. Would the dev team have put in Goofy and Donald if Disney gave them permission? I dunno, but I wouldn't be like that surprised if they did. Persona is already technically a non-videogame series, Sakurai even acknowledged in a recent video that SMT technically is a licensed series. I just wouldn't be surprised if there's a bit more flexibility there than expeccted.


In other words, I'm just saying that when you think of the most iconic and beloved videogame franchises not yet in Smash, Tony Hawk's Pro Skater is always up there.

Whatever the case, it'll come across as outdated if Sakurai and/or Nintendo keep the pattern as strict as it is for future games.

The entertainment industry has finally accepted video games as part of its larger fold instead of a weird, disruptive niche at most. I'd say Smash has a duty to accept this development.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Scrooge McDuck was a semi-popular talking point character among characters who didn't originate here during Smash 4 speculation.

He's probably the one character who didn't originate from a video game who I'd be absolutely fine with getting into a Smash game, albeit, even then I'm not as onboard with the idea as I once was, if solely because I really, really do not want to open the floodgates for other non-gaming characters.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

You know, on the subject of troll and surprise picks. Do you think that, if Sakurai was given the okay and cooperation of a fellow 3rd Party, could he pull a Mr. Game & Watch/Wii Fit Trainer/Piranha Plant with a 3rd Party character? I mean, the most common surprise picks we speculate about are:

• A character who's game does not show them much as a fighter, but Sakurai somehow makes them into a fighter. EG. Wii Fit Trainer, Ayumi Tachibana, etc.
• A Classical character that hasn't seen any new games or a character comprised of various games from NES or older. EG. Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B., Duck Hunt, etc.
• A very out-there pick that isn't a main character or popular character. EG. Piranha Plant, another Nintendo Mook, etc.

But nobody has speculated the thought of madlad Sakurai somehow getting the okay and cooperation of a 3rd Party company to get in a specific 3rd Party character that nobody was expecting had any chances. Sure, it's an incredibly small chance, but one minute ago, some people were quite adamant that Sora could never get in due to Disney. We tend to get surprised one way or another.

Capcom pulls off the hat trick of getting all three of their 80s through 90s mascots in Smash via Ryu, Mega Man... and Captain Commando.

 

[PeridotGX]

I really don't think a game dedicated to the crossover aspect and a game with a lot of cross-promotional deals are comparable.

I needed a segway into the tier list. You can't just post it with no introduction

I mean you can buy you shouldn't.

 

[Quillion]

Scrooge McDuck was a semi-popular talking point character among characters who didn't originate here during Smash 4 speculation.

He's probably the one character who didn't originate from a video game who I'd be absolutely fine with getting into a Smash game, albeit, even then I'm not as onboard with the idea as I once was, if solely because I really, really do not want to open the floodgates for other non-gaming characters.

If Dr. Mario didn't open the floodgates for Mario spin-off characters nor Sheik opened the floodgates for Zelda one-shot characters...

What makes one think that any licensed game character will do the same?

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

Geralt is a good example where if you put him into a videogame all-star crossover, everybody would understand why for obvious reasons. Fortnite already did just that. It's difficult to deny that the Witcher 3 is one of the most influential and popular games of the last generation. I do think him being a book character would ultimately prevent him from getting in, but I'm moreso saying I don't think it's the most clear-cut case ever. In a few years you'll be able to repeat this entire argument with like, Astarion from Baldur's Gate anyways.

I think the more interesting example is characters who are technically from videogames but are much more well known for other mediums. Carmen Sandiego is like absolutely much more recognised as a kid's show character despite being from an educational game, and I'm not sure how you could hypothetically add her without her mostly being from her shows. Or for someone who comes up a bit more, Saber Artoria is from a visual novel, which are usually considered games, but I'd wager she's pretty universally recognised as an anime character. The original Fate/Stay Night visual novel isn't really like something like Danganronpa or Ace Attorney, cause it wasn't ported to consoles until a few years later and it doesn't feature any "true" gameplay, the fight sequences are very much presented in a way that lends itself to manga and anime adaptations. Cause of that, even though Fate has had a consistent videogame presence, the most recognised Fate media tends to be the anime adaptations or sequels, though that's kind of come back around again with how popular Grand Order is. I do like Saber and I think she could have a very fun moveset, but I do think she would definitely feel incredibly out of place if she ever got added for whatever reason lol. Arcueid could be cool though for the Melty Blood rep.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

If Dr. Mario didn't open the floodgates for Mario spin-off characters nor Sheik opened the floodgates for Zelda one-shot characters...

What makes one think that any licensed game character will do the same?

Sonic and Snake opened the door for more 3rd party characters. And even if they didn't, they were still ultimately the first of several, and it's unlikely we'd have as many as we do today had reception to them not been unanimously positive.

The examples you used aren't exactly as game-changing as characters from games made by other companies or non-video game media.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

If Dr. Mario didn't open the floodgates for Mario spin-off characters nor Sheik opened the floodgates for Zelda one-shot characters...

What makes one think that any licensed game character will do the same?

That's not even remotely comparable.

 

[Quillion]

Sonic and Snake opened the door for more 3rd party characters. And even if they didn't, they were still ultimately the first of several, and it's unlikely we'd have as many as we do today had reception to them not been unanimously positive.

The examples you used aren't exactly as game-changing as characters from games made by other companies or non-video game media.

So if the reception isn't unanimously positive, they can work towards a slower drip towards dismantling that pattern as opposed to destroying it completely in an instant.

 

[cashregister9]

I'm on team whatever bull**** allows Hatsune Miku to be eligible (Are instruments Video Games, they are to me, I guess)

...and maybe whatever allows Korone to be eligible too

(This counts as videosgame? right?)

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'm on team whatever bull**** allows Hatsune Miku to be eligible (Are instruments Video Games, they are to me, I guess)

...and maybe whatever allows Korone to be eligible too

(This counts as videosgame? right?)

If we start Korone posting, I don't think I could stop.

 

[Quillion]

Reminder that the third-party representation in Smash went from "one character per company" to "one character per franchise" to "multiple characters per franchise".

There's a big spectrum between completely maintaining a strict pattern and breaking it and throwing it in the trash in one fell swoop.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

So if the reception isn't unanimously positive, they can work towards a slower drip towards dismantling that pattern as opposed to destroying it completely in an instant.

That's...not what I was saying at all.

What argument are you trying to make here?

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

Miku would be funny, and I don't think she'd be pushing the envelope a ton anyways. You could consider her like, a software character, and what would that open up even taking it to an extreme? Clippy gets tossed around as a joke sometimes. Bonzi Buddy? If that opens the door to v-tubers, then Chad Warden should also be on the table. There's truly a lot of great options.

 

[Quillion]

That's...not what I was saying at all.

What argument are you trying to make here?

This post:

Reminder that the third-party representation in Smash went from "one character per company" to "one character per franchise" to "multiple characters per franchise".

There's a big spectrum between completely maintaining a strict pattern and breaking it and throwing it in the trash in one fell swoop.

I think it's clear now that when Sakurai, Sora Ltd., and Nintendo want to break a pattern with Smash, they'll do it in a careful and controlled manner, not by "opening the floodgates".

And even with Mario spin-off characters and Zelda one-shot characters, they aren't shy about making a pattern more strict than before.

 

[Schnee117]

Arcueid could be cool though for the Melty Blood rep.

Arc is very good and all however

Aoko Aozaki Blast

I'm on team whatever bull**** allows Hatsune Miku to be eligible (Are instruments Video Games, they are to me, I guess)

...and maybe whatever allows Korone to be eligible too

(This counts as videosgame? right?)

She should be added alongside Doom Slayer

 

[Garteam]

I think the more interesting example is characters who are technically from videogames but are much more well known for other mediums. Carmen Sandiego is like absolutely much more recognised as a kid's show character despite being from an educational game, and I'm not sure how you could hypothetically add her without her mostly being from her shows. Or for someone who comes up a bit more, Saber Artoria is from a visual novel, which are usually considered games, but I'd wager she's pretty universally recognised as an anime character. The original Fate/Stay Night visual novel isn't really like something like Danganronpa or Ace Attorney, cause it wasn't ported to consoles until a few years later and it doesn't feature any "true" gameplay, the fight sequences are very much presented in a way that lends itself to manga and anime adaptations. Cause of that, even though Fate has had a consistent videogame presence, the most recognised Fate media tends to be the anime adaptations or sequels, though that's kind of come back around again with how popular Grand Order is. I do like Saber and I think she could have a very fun moveset, but I do think she would definitely feel incredibly out of place if she ever got added for whatever reason lol. Arcueid could be cool though for the Melty Blood rep.

I think these scenarios would be like how Pokemon is treated in Smash, where a noteworthy adaptation shapes a lot of the creative direction for how elements from the games are represented.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Chad Warden

He's talkin' about that PS Quintuple. He ain't talkin' 'bout dat Switch, even if he gets paid for every copy of Smash 6 sold.

 

[AreJay25]

Miku would be funny, and I don't think she'd be pushing the envelope a ton anyways. You could consider her like, a software character, and what would that open up even taking it to an extreme? Clippy gets tossed around as a joke sometimes. Bonzi Buddy? If that opens the door to v-tubers, then Chad Warden should also be on the table. There's truly a lot of great options.

Chad Warden would never allow himself to be on anything other than Sony consoles. It's all about that PS Triple... er, Quintuple.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

This post:



I think it's clear now that when Sakurai, Sora Ltd., and Nintendo want to break a pattern with Smash, they'll do it in a careful and controlled manner, not by "opening the floodgates".

You're not making any sort of tangible argument whatsoever.

It's not a matter of "how much" is added, it's a matter of "now it happened so there is nothing stopping it from happening again".

THAT is what is meant by the floodgates opening.
If we allow one character like Scrooge McDuck, Goku, Geralt, whoever, then all the requests that will come in for Naruto, Shrek, Batman, Iron Man, Luffy, Sailor Moon, Godzilla, Homer Simpson, Darth Vader, SpongeBob, etc. will be just as valid as any other character, and quite frankly will absolutely overtake majority of requests going forward simply because anything and everything is on the table.
And Sakurai/Nintendo can't go back and say "well no, we can't do these characters because...." because the genie's already out of the bottle. Acting like the one character is the "exception" would raise an immeasurable backlash.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

This post:



I think it's clear now that when Sakurai, Sora Ltd., and Nintendo want to break a pattern with Smash, they'll do it in a careful and controlled manner, not by "opening the floodgates".

And even with Mario spin-off characters and Zelda one-shot characters, they aren't shy about making a pattern more strict than before.

Perhaps I used a too extreme terminology, but one or two characters who originated from something other than a video game being added could still very much pave the wave for more non-video game characters to get in and change what Smash is as a series.

I guess my main point is, I'd still just rather not have a bunch of a non-video game characters join Smash at any point.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Sonic and Snake would've made it into Melee if there was enough time. 3rd party video game characters were already a fine idea after Smash 64. It just was impossible at the time. No floodgates were open to begin with.

Sheik was added before Zelda was to Melee overall. She didn't start "anything" and is an outlier(she also is a main character in that game, which is one of the biggest Zelda games in existence. It's still beholden to that. On the other hand, ALTTP, the other massive game, still can't even get its main villain a cameo in Smash. There's nothing to really put into this kind of logic here, as it means nothing). Dr. Mario was in mainly because he was a clone option. Spin-offs weren't given some special treatment there. Also, keep in mind that only Mario Kart even got something via its own music section(due to necessity) and its own stages. We don't generally get spin-off content for the most part, with very little when it comes to Spirits or other similar cases even then. Like, Tingle's specific game content is not that much. Hell, Sonic is one of the few third parties to get lots of spin-off content with Stickers, etc., but even then, those spin-offs are part of the normal game continuity, something that doesn't work with other franchises. Zelda's spin-offs are at best their own thing, with at most Link's Crossbow Training maybe having no issues with potential canonicity(since it doesn't contradict or do anything odd. It's just a silly game at best).

If we got another one-off, it'd be because they're part of the main trio. Which is the only reason why Sheik made sense. She is freaking Zelda. Also, keep in mind, we were likewise intended to get Toon Zelda before, but also a Smash OC in Toon Sheik(and even if that became Tetra later on, her appearances were a one and done game too). Clearly being one-off itself wasn't that important. It's just they weren't the main Triforce trio, which has proven to be a lot more important than anything else by now when it comes to being playable. Even in cases where the Triforce doesn't exist within a game, it doesn't change that that version of Zelda, Link, Ganon, or Ganondorf are looked at.

Besides? Nothing has stopped Sakurai from adding a spin-off character in some form(again, more or less). He simply hasn't. There could be many reasons. Lack of importance, licensing being more difficult as an option, a focus on different contexts, etc.

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

Arc is very good and all however

Aoko Aozaki Blast

This is all part of the master plan to get a Ryougi Shiki support thread in time for Smash 8.

 

[Quillion]

And Sakurai/Nintendo can't go back and say "well no, we can't do these characters because...." because the genie's already out of the bottle.

Sure they can.

Again, there's nothing stopping them from adding a Mario spin-off character or Zelda one-shot character, especially with the big demand for any of these two groups.

Really, anything can change because they say so. That goes in either direction and at multiple magnitudes.

 

[CommanderZaktan]

If the next Smash reworked Samus similar to this, I think Dark Samus won't be an echo but a stand alone fighter.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Sure they can.

Again, there's nothing stopping them from adding a Mario spin-off character or Zelda one-shot character, especially with the big demand for any of these two groups.

Really, anything can change because they say so. That goes in either direction and at multiple magnitudes.

You can repeat this point ad nauseum and it won't make even the slightest bit of logic.

You're comparing a type of character that has not ever been ruled out (regardless of how much you want to pretend someone like Waluigi or Midna is "impossible" just because they haven't happened) to a type of character SPECIFICALLY SAID TO BE AN IMPOSSIBILITY MORE THAN THRICE BY THE MAN HIMSELF.

If that impossibility becomes a possibility even ONCE, it cannot be an impossibility again.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Sure they can.

Again, there's nothing stopping them from adding a Mario spin-off character or Zelda one-shot character, especially with the big demand for any of these two groups.

Really, anything can change because they say so. That goes in either direction and at multiple magnitudes.

I think you're missing the point of how a non-gaming character is a vastly different thing from adding any recurring or one-shot characters from major video game franchises. And ones that are already already well-established in Smash at that.

The Smash fanbase at large would consider the addition to be a non-gaming characters to be a much bigger deal not just because it's never been done before, but also because a lot more people know or care about Goku and Spongebob than characters like Skull Kid or Waluigi.

 

[Garteam]

If we allow one character like Scrooge McDuck, Goku, Geralt, whoever, then all the requests that will come in for Naruto, Shrek, Batman, Iron Man, Luffy, Sailor Moon, Godzilla, Homer Simpson, Darth Vader, SpongeBob, etc. will be just as valid as any other character, and quite frankly will absolutely overtake majority of requests going forward simply because anything and everything is on the table.
And Sakurai/Nintendo can't go back and say "well no, we can't do these characters because...." because the genie's already out of the bottle. Acting like the one character is the "exception" would raise an immeasurable backlash.

I'd say Geralt can still be distinguished from the other characters you listed because The Witcher game series is a much looser and more indirect adaptation of its source material than the games starring other characters you listed. When you buy a Dragon Ball, SpongeBob, etc. game, the experience is constructed in a way that is meant to deliberately evoke and replicate its source material. The Witcher is entirely separate from the original books beyond sharing some characters, sharing the world, and taking place after the books ended in an alternative timeline. If you changed the name, you could pretty easily disconnect The Witcher games from the books in the same way that Castlevania is disconnected from Dracula.

The Witcher would basically be the exception that proves the rule regarding fourth parties. The only way of getting in is if the character appears in a game that's so distinguishable from other media that it may as well not be an adaptation.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Smash 6 introduces the multi-media video game pack where we get various third-party characters... in the form of their other media adaptations.

-Live action Billy and Jimmy from the 1994 Double Dragon
-Sindel from Mortal Kombat Annihilation
-M Bison from the 1994 Street Fighter
-Link from the DIC LoZ cartoon
-Coke snorting Rayman from Captain Laserhawk

It's funny you say some of this;

The Mortal Kombat movies established Outworld even existed. It also led to Jax eventually getting character development about his overeliance on arm upgrades. Besides that, Scorpion having two Spears became an option in some games. Also, Johnny Cage directly tells Goro he still needs to pay for some Sunglasses in later games. The movies weren't great(the second one was awful), but they've been referenced in the games and in some cases, helped evolve them. Even funnier is the cartoon directly influenced the games in more than one way; Quan Chi was a cartoon original that got added to the series. Sektor and Cyrax ethnicities were switched from the cartoon into the game, but it's the same ones, just the opposite character. Next up, Kano directly was changed to match his unique movie style, and then Shang Tsung in another continuity was redesigned to resemble his movie self. (There's a lot more, but you get the gist).

Okay, let's be honest, Link didn't have much dialogue options till way later. On the other hand, Zelda herself starting having an adventurer mindset coming into BOTW, which directly correlates to how she was in the CD-i games and the cartoon. Even better is that the idea of someone turning into a Spirit only their loved one could see started in the Cartoon and was used in Spirit Tracks with the only differences being the characters switched and one could fight in Spirit Form in some way.

So basically, referencing movies are fine. The main games do that sometimes. It's not a big deal. Also, to be fair, even DK gets a bit from the cartoon. You'd think his white costume would be some game thing, but it's literally referred to Yeti DK... which is a direct reference to the cartoon. Smash already does this. Or do I need to mention Advent Children, kek. Honestly, having movie-designs as skins wouldn't even matter. The issue respectively is that it'd require way too much licensing in some cases that it obviously wouldn't be feasible.

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

I personally just don't really mind if people request Goku because Geralt got in.

 

[Gorgonzales]

Clippy gets tossed around as a joke sometimes. Bonzi Buddy?

His Final Smash is this.

 

[Quillion]

GoldenYuiitusin & KingofPhantoms

Honestly, given the growing disconnect between things that are popular requested for Smash and how vast and divided the Smash fandom is at this point, I don't find it all that viable to continue to cater to the fans. Especially ones that want certain rules and patterns as hard as possible.

I'll just go back to this post on this topic:

Whatever the case, it'll come across as outdated if Sakurai and/or Nintendo keep the pattern as strict as it is for future games.

The entertainment industry has finally accepted video games as part of its larger fold instead of a weird, disruptive niche at most. I'd say Smash has a duty to accept this development.

That's well, y'know, just like, uh, my opinion, man.