Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Fair argument, but even that can only go so far.

Like any game protagonist with an access to a wide variety of weapons (like say Dark Souls) could theoretically have a "random references" moveset, but that would be annoying to look at.

Take it you're not a fan of Byleth?

 

[Gengar84]

I’ve never understood the argument that movesets with lots of references are inherently bad. One of the most exciting parts of crossovers for me is that characters can bring their unique abilities and playstyles into a new game. I like when the character actually feels like the character and not a mostly made up moveset that could have been given to just about anyone just because it technically works and the character “could” do those things.

 

[Zerp]

So, do you guys think that Isabelle is unique enough, or should she be changed more?

I'd say she's fine as is for the most part, but the main change I'd want would be to let her use her voice. Isabelle being silent just feels wrong lol. It makes sense for Villager but you'd figure this would be one of their differences. They could always do something like Mario Kart 8 and use her AC chatter noises as a "voice".

 

[Sucumbio]

How are either of them cohesive at all?

They both subscribe to the "random references" approach to moveset design, and that's as far as their "cohesion" goes.

By cohesive I mean able to string, trap, etc. obvious cohesive kits include Captain Falcon, Cloud, Snake, these have a huge number of setups and getouts that others wish they had like idk Ike lol. On a scale of everyone from least to most cohesive or in a tier list of cohesiveness I'd absolutely place Isabelle above Villager and I'd like to think she'll come back with a similar design and really in Ultimate she just needs stronger hits

 

[ninjahmos]

If Palutena makes it in the next game, I think Medusa would be a great Echo for her.

 

[Gengar84]

I think Black Shadow would make a good Echo for Captain Falcon.

I agree but I don’t think you want to bring that up here. It seems to be a pretty controversial topic.

 

[kirbstr]

Meh, the idea that Sakurai is obligated to reference "recent stuff" in any franchise is nonsensical in general.

Especially since much of the "recent stuff" ends up being one-off and gives way to the "old stuff" in the end. I'll point out the Zelda one-shot characters again.

First of all... no its not? Like, thats literally what happens for every franchise each smash game. Your Zelda example sucks because Sakurai has always updated the playable roster, stage list, assist trophies, and items to reflect the most recent Zelda games.

Second, how does that apply to Kirby only getting references to the 4 games Sakurai directed? Air ride is one of the most irrelevant games in the franchise and nearly has more stuff in smash from it than RtDL. Unless you're implying every Kirby game since Air ride are just rehashes or one-offs of Super Star with no staying power, which would be utterly moronic.

 

[TheQuester]

I made a bingo card for potential first party inclusions in the next game.
View attachment 388384

Yeah, this seems about right....i would replace EMMI for the squid sisters or DJ octavio, thogh.

 

[Schnee117]

I made a bingo card for potential first party inclusions in the next game.
View attachment 388384

Some of y'all gotta stop trying to sneak Geno into first party lists.

 

[Noipoi]

So, do you guys think that Isabelle is unique enough, or should she be changed more?

If Dr. Mario is considered different enough to be his own character, Isabelle is fine.

 

[Quillion]

Take it you're not a fan of Byleth?

I actually really like Byleth in terms of gamefeel tbf. They're by far the best of the Ultimate DLC in terms of that alone imo.

But yeah, in terms of animations, I have to agree that they would've been better focusing on their Enlightened One abilities as opposed to pulling quad duty for themself and the house leaders.

I’ve never understood the argument that movesets with lots of references are inherently bad. One of the most exciting parts of crossovers for me is that characters can bring their unique abilities and playstyles into a new game. I like when the character actually feels like the character and not a mostly made up moveset that could have been given to just about anyone just because it technically works and the character “could” do those things.

Maybe not inherently bad (thanks to Mr. G&W at least), but it's clear that the team isn't treading lightly with how they implement the idea anymore. It's making a lot of the recent characters awkward and unfun.

First of all... no its not? Like, thats literally what happens for every franchise each smash game. Your Zelda example sucks because Sakurai has always updated the playable roster, stage list, assist trophies, and items to reflect the most recent Zelda games.

Second, how does that apply to Kirby only getting references to the 4 games Sakurai directed? Air ride is one of the most irrelevant games in the franchise and nearly has more stuff in smash from it than RtDL. Unless you're implying every Kirby game since Air ride are just rehashes or one-offs of Super Star with no staying power, which would be utterly moronic.

Touché, I was mainly referring to characters (both additional fighters and how they are represented).

Still, maybe the issue really IS that, at least in terms of non-character assets, none of the Kirby games prior to Forgotten Land are appreciably different from the ones that Sakurai made.

Even some of the more recurrent elements of the recent Kirby games like Another Dimension are so different from game-to-game that they're practically unrecognizable other than name.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

First of all... no its not? Like, thats literally what happens for every franchise each smash game. Your Zelda example sucks because Sakurai has always updated the playable roster, stage list, assist trophies, and items to reflect the most recent Zelda games.

Second, how does that apply to Kirby only getting references to the 4 games Sakurai directed? Air ride is one of the most irrelevant games in the franchise and nearly has more stuff in smash from it than RtDL. Unless you're implying every Kirby game since Air ride are just rehashes or one-offs of Super Star with no staying power, which would be utterly moronic.

It's also not really true in general. The only series that it really applies to are Fire Emblem, and Xenoblade Chronicles, who change their setting and cast in every game.

And even then it's not entirely true because the protagonists keep coming back as DLC in both series, and also E N G A G E.

 

[TheQuester]

What 3rd party characters do you think are likely for base game and which ones are likely for DLC?

 

[Noipoi]

What 3rd party characters do you think are likely for base game

Sans Undertale

And which ones are likely for DLC?

Spamton Deltarune

 

[Gengar84]

I actually really like Byleth in terms of gamefeel tbf. They're by far the best of the Ultimate DLC in terms of that alone imo.

But yeah, in terms of animations, I have to agree that they would've been better focusing on their Enlightened One abilities as opposed to pulling quad duty for themself and the house leaders.



Maybe not inherently bad (thanks to Mr. G&W at least), but it's clear that the team isn't treading lightly with how they implement the idea anymore. It's making a lot of the recent characters awkward and unfun.



Touché, I was mainly referring to characters (both additional fighters and how they are represented).

Still, maybe the issue really IS that, at least in terms of non-character assets, none of the Kirby games prior to Forgotten Land are appreciably different from the ones that Sakurai made.

Even some of the more recurrent elements of the recent Kirby games like Another Dimension are so different from game-to-game that they're practically unrecognizable other than name.

I guess that’s just a matter of preference. I think Sephiroth, Terry, and Kazuya, for example, are some of the most fun characters on the roster to play. I can understand Steve though. The idea of building structures is really cool but he does feel pretty awkward to play. Hero’s fine besides his down special being really difficult to use properly but it wouldn’t be the first time I’ve had to forego using a move because I couldn’t use it well (Mario’s FLUDD, Squirtle’s Hydro Pump, and Ganondorf’s up tilt).

 

[ScrubReborn]

On a similar note, what other Echoes or semi-clones do you want to see changed more? I’ve already said how I want Daisy’s specials in the next game to pull from Wonder.

At minimum, I'd like to see Daisy take some of Peach's old physical moves (Melee headbutt up tilt, Melee/Brawl kick up air). They always seemed like a better fit for her than Peach.

I'd also like 'em to give Dark Samus slightly lighter weight, lower falling speed and traction but slightly higher mobility. Maybe change up a few moves to be more combo friendy at the cost of KOing power. Then she can graduate from echo to Melee clone... I mean its a start lol.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

What 3rd party characters do you think are likely for base game and which ones are likely for DLC?

You talking veterans or newcomers?

Because at this point i think weve kinda blown through Japans heavy hitting third party series.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

...it wouldn’t be the first time I’ve had to forego using a move because I couldn’t use it well (...Ganondorf’s up tilt).

Nono. You don't forgo using Ganondorf's up tilt because you don't know how to use it properly. You forgo using it because it's garbage.

Honestly, at this point they should just make his up tilt his old up smash, but with more reasonable damage values for an up tilt.

 

[Quillion]

It's also not really true in general. The only series that it really applies to are Fire Emblem, and Xenoblade Chronicles, who change their setting and cast in every game.

And even then it's not entirely true because the protagonists keep coming back as DLC in both series, and also E N G A G E.

Honestly, representing the "recent stuff" of these "rotating cast" franchises through non-character assets as opposed to fighters wouldn't be a bad idea. Actually, I hope for it.

I'd only make an exception for Alear, if only because I legitimately like them as a character AND they can make up for Byleth not using a sword+ki energy+brawling animation set.

 

[Laniv]

So, do you guys think that Isabelle is unique enough, or should she be changed more?

Echoing what others have said and make her attacks feel more klutzy and accidental. Even stuff like giving her a surprised expression when she reels in a foe with fishing rod could go a long way

On a similar note, what other Echoes or semi-clones do you want to see changed more? I’ve already said how I want Daisy’s specials in the next game to pull from Wonder.

Give Richter Hydro Storm for a Final Smash, maybe give Daisy more physical moves like the headbutt Peach had in Melee, and then give Dark Samus some of the moves she had as an Assist Trophy

 

[Louie G.]

How are either of them cohesive at all?

They both subscribe to the "random references" approach to moveset design, and that's as far as their "cohesion" goes.

Villager and Isabelle are cohesive enough. They're very plainly zoner / trapper type characters who just utilize tools from their games to emphasize that archetype. Quirky zoner, stage control type characters are a staple across a dozen fighting games - Hsien-Ko in Darkstalkers, Faust in Guilty Gear, Peacock in Skullgirls... we could say Smash may have more of these than the average roster, but in a vacuum there's nothing inherently wrong with the design.

Several of these references are implemented in an abstract way, like the Lloid moves, where it's pretty much just an aesthetic costume for a made up move that compliments their respective playstyles or shortcomings. Particularly a horizontal approach option for Villager, or a stage trap for Isabelle which compliments the utility of her fishing rod. And quirkier moves like say, the bowling ball are just a fun spice that gives Villager an unexpected quality - again, that kind of randomness is just sort of a staple within the silly zoner archetype.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Honestly, representing the "recent stuff" of these "rotating cast" franchises through non-character assets as opposed to fighters wouldn't be a bad idea. Actually, I hope for it.

I'd only make an exception for Alear, if only because I legitimately like them as a character AND they can make up for Byleth not using a sword+ki energy+brawling animation set.

Oh, is she not sword locked? I always assumed she'd be Marth adjacent (in the same way that Corrin evokes that aesthetic), but with the gimmick of also having Marth there to give her combos or something.

 

[Ivander]

If Palutena makes it in the next game, I think Medusa would be a great Echo for her.

Give the Echo/Semi-clone status to Viridi. Let Medusa have her own moveset. One that fits with her outright punching off the head of a god.

 

[Quillion]

Nono. You don't forgo using Ganondorf's up tilt because you don't know how to use it properly. You forgo using it because it's garbage.

Honestly, at this point they should just make his up tilt his old up smash, but with more reasonable damage values for an up tilt.

Nah, they should go further and make EVERY tilt have a "falcon punch" option by holding down A with no "in-between" charges. Tapping A would just put out a conventional tilt.

Oh, is she not sword locked? I always assumed she'd be Marth adjacent (in the same way that Corrin evokes that aesthetic), but with the gimmick of also having Marth there to give her combos or something.

They're sword-locked at base, but they get Arts on promotion.

 

[Ivander]

Oh, is she not sword locked? I always assumed she'd be Marth adjacent (in the same way that Corrin evokes that aesthetic), but with the gimmick of also having Marth there to give her combos or something.

Starts as Sword only, but gets Arts/Brawling later, alongside an attack that's practically Galick Gun.

Also, Corrin has more moves that use their transformations than their sword.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Nah, they should go further and make EVERY tilt have a "falcon punch" option by holding down A with no "in-between" charges. Tapping A would just put out a conventional tilt.

I actually had this idea for Up Tilt specifically if they were determined to keep Volcano Kick, but this...

This is pretty funny. Also really cursed, but funny.

Also, Corrin has more moves that use their transformations than their sword.

Yeah I was trying not to imply that they were similar in gameplay (because they aren't except on the basis that they are in the same archetype). It's more of a vibes thing for me.

 

[Gengar84]

Give the Echo/Semi-clone status to Viridi. Let Medusa have her own moveset. One that fits with her outright punching off the head of a god.

Medusa has such a cool design. I could never really get into Uprising due to the controls but she’s someone I’d love to have in Smash primarily for her design. I’m also a fan of including more villains in Smash and she was the original main villain of the series (even if Hades took over that role later in Uprising).

 

[Megadoomer]

Some of y'all gotta stop trying to sneak Geno into first party lists.

Some people might not be aware that he's third party; I figure his third party nature is well-documented at this point, but not everyone pays attention to copyright info.

What 3rd party characters do you think are likely for base game and which ones are likely for DLC?

I could see an indie character like Shovel Knight, Shantae, or Sans making it into the base game. (also, Rayman would be nice) Ryu Hayabusa also seems like he could work as a base game character.

As for DLC, I feel like if Dante (from the Devil May Cry series) makes it into Smash, it would be through DLC - DLC third party characters tend to have more complicated concepts by comparison to base game characters (with Banjo being mostly an exception), and given how much he potentially has to work with (various weapons, Style Switching, Devil Trigger, etc.), it seems like Dante would be complicated.

 

[Louie G.]

What 3rd party characters do you think are likely for base game and which ones are likely for DLC?

In a more general sense, I still believe base roster is the place for more humble additions and firmly established relationships to bear fruit. Additional characters from Sega or Capcom, close-knit and smaller scale partners like Koei-Tecmo or indie characters (?). Building off existing negotiations could go a few ways - I expect a couple third party series to be expanded on with an additional character (Sonic and Street Fighter in particular) but something like Puyo Puyo or Monster Hunter serves just as well as a base game addition. But any new series altogether could just as easily be pushed to DLC, while I think base game is the main time for someone like Tails or Chun-Li.

If the next game's DLC is anything like this one, it'll probably have an emphasis on building new partnerships, or expanding on some of the more cost-intensive and/or overseas negotiations. Unless Square throws Nintendo a cheap bone like Geno on base roster, I suspect heavier hitters (and a chunk of returning vets) will show up post release. Same with Microsoft and their titanic potential for major crowd-pleasing reveals, while I don't anticipate Banjo / Steve would be that hard to get back I think Master Chief, Doomguy, Crash, etc are better served as DLC. Any new AAA western characters will 100% show up here.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Wait...Shin Megami Tensei is a fourth party series?

Kinda?

The original MegaTen games were based on novels. Then those games spun off into SMT. Which later spun off into Persona.

So, do you guys think that Isabelle is unique enough, or should she be changed more?

Changed more.

If a character isn't an Echo, they should be completely unique.

On a slightly unrelated note, Bass would definitely make a good Echo for Mega Man, along with Zack for Cloud.

I think Black Shadow would make a good Echo for Captain Falcon.

Yes yes yes.

 

[Gengar84]

Some people might not be aware that he's third party; I figure his third party nature is well-documented at this point, but not everyone pays attention to copyright info.



I could see an indie character like Shovel Knight, Shantae, or Sans making it into the base game. (also, Rayman would be nice)

As for DLC, I feel like if Dante (from the Devil May Cry series) makes it into Smash, it would be through DLC - DLC third party characters tend to have more complicated concepts by comparison to base game characters (with Banjo being mostly an exception), and given how much he potentially has to work with (various weapons, Style Switching, Devil Trigger, etc.), it seems like Dante would be complicated.

All I ask for if we get Dante is that he comes with the Devil Trigger song. Ideally, I’d take Nero too because I’m a big Johnny Yong Bosch fan but Dante probably makes more sense if we only get one character (which I don’t at all expect a second).

[Full Song/Official Lyrics] Devil Trigger - Nero's battle theme from Devil May Cry 5

Devil Trigger - Nero's Battle Theme from Devil May Cry 5 by Casey Edwards feat. Ali Edwards and Cliff Lloret

m.youtube.com

Kinda?

The original MegaTen games were based on novels. Then those games spun off into SMT. Which later spun off into Persona.

Changed more.

If a character isn't an Echo, they should be completely unique.

The duality of man...

Do you consider Falco and Wolf unique enough from Fox? Their specials are all variants of Fox’s but they play pretty differently in practice.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

So, do you guys think that Isabelle is unique enough, or should she be changed more?

I'd like to see her incorporate more items from and some town-related elements from AC into her moveset.

The Fishing Rod and party popper are great, but I remember a major talking point about her moveset potential being as a terraforming-type character (similar to Steve, but less extreme) and I would've like to see more of that both because I think some creative moveset potential was lost there and because it likely would've made her a stronger character.

In the final game, the closest we got to terraforming moves Isabelle was just Lloid Trap. Which is still a good move since even if it fails to land, it limits your opponent's playing field or forces them to take some extra time to destroy it.

 

[Gorgonzales]

If Palutena makes it in the next game, I think Medusa would be a great Echo for her.

I don't want an echo of Palutena in the current state she's in. I'd rather prioritize giving her more interesting special moves.

 

[Garteam]

What 3rd party characters do you think are likely for base game and which ones are likely for DLC?

For the base game, I have a good hunch about Bomberman. He fits well with the retro characters with strong legacies that we've traditionally seen as new, base game third-party reps. I also think we're going to see a good amount of second reps from third-party series already in Smash. I think Shadow and X and/or Zero are the strongest candidates, but I also think Alucard, Chun-Li, Tails, and Knuckles have a really good shot. The stars also seem to be crossing for Geno to get included, as bizarre as that is to type out.

For DLC, the sky is the limit here, but I'd say Doom Slayer, Crash, a RE character, and Nakoruru are all really strong choices. I do think there's a lot of ground to be covered for Capcom and Koei Tecmo, so I think they'll get multiple reps. I could also see Tifa, Slime, and Riku happening here.

 

[ninjahmos]

What 3rd party characters do you think are likely for base game and which ones are likely for DLC?

For the base game, I'd say Crash Bandicoot, Phoenix Wright, Bomberman, Ryu Hayabusa, Rayman, Dante, Doom Slayer, Shantae, Shovel Knight and Sans.

For DLC, I'd say either Shadow or Eggman, Travis Touchdown, Reimu Hakurei, Monster Hunter, Zero, Spyro, Sol Badguy, Klonoa, Arle Nadja, Lloyd Irving, 2B, and Kazuma Kiryu.

 

[Quillion]

I actually had this idea for Up Tilt specifically if they were determined to keep Volcano Kick, but this...

This is pretty funny. Also really cursed, but funny.

Maybe this way they could move either the old elbow animation or Warlock Punch to f-tilt, then change d-tilt into something other than "crouching thrust kick".

 

[DarthEnderX]

Do you consider Falco and Wolf unique enough from Fox?

No. I want them to trade their pistols with the Sniper Rifle and Machine Gun from Assault.

 

[Sucumbio]

It's making a lot of the recent characters awkward and unfun.

I dunno about a lot but I don't use Hero cause I can't keep up with the menu aspect and if you just sword he swings like a drunk Link lol but then Byleth as a fighter works impressively well for me, whereas Robin needs a visit perhaps at least regarding the durability mechanic. I haven't written off any character in terms of trying them out but there's definitely a few I don't use because they're just not for me.

 

[ninjahmos]

For the base game, I'd say Crash Bandicoot, Phoenix Wright, Bomberman, Ryu Hayabusa, Rayman, Dante, Doom Slayer, Shantae, Shovel Knight and Sans.

For DLC, I'd say either Shadow or Eggman, Travis Touchdown, Reimu Hakurei, Monster Hunter, Zero, Spyro, Sol Badguy, Klonoa, Arle Nadja, Lloyd Irving, 2B, and Kazuma Kiryu.

If either Lu Bu (Dynasty Warriors) or Nobunaga Oda (Samurai Warriors) don't get in the base game, I'd at least hope for DLC.

 

[Gengar84]

If either Lu Bu (Dynasty Warriors) or Nobunaga Oda (Samurai Warriors) don't get in the base game, I'd at least hope for DLC.

I’d love either of them but I’d go with Lu Bu between the two. Nobunaga’s got the Pokemon crossover going for him with Conquest but Lu Bu has a very unique weapon for Smash and Dynasty Warriors was the original Musou game.