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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

Garteam

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For Mega Man, looking it up, I guess I understand why .EXE got the mii costume because it does seem like EXE is the most popular Mega man in Japan period. I Still think Zero would be the option for next Mega Man character, but maybe if they bring Custom Moves and alternate ways to pay characters, they could incorporate the other versions of Mega Man into playable
I think it's down to X or Zero for another Mega Man rep. Mega Man X is the most popular subseries after Classic and it is presently the subseries after Classic with the most representation in Smash. Both X and Zero are very popular among the Mega Man fanbase and have a lot of merit to their inclusion. Zero is more distinct from Mega Man in terms of moveset and appearance, but X would be more unique relative to the roster as a whole and he's the only playable character in X1, which is the most popular X game and arguably the most popular in the series generally.

A lot of people seem to think Zero over X is an inevitability because "the X series became about him" and he was in Marvel vs. Capcom 3, but I really disagree with that sentiment. Beyond X4 and (debatably) X5, Zero is never really at the core of the X series' focus in a way X isn't. Inafune was indeed pretty open that Zero was his favourite character and he wanted to promote him as much as possible, but that mostly just manifested in the aforementioned X4, Zero getting his sub-plot of being a Wily Number, and Zero later getting his own series. Inafune wasn't too involved with the X games after 4. In terms of Marvel, including Zero but not some form of Mega Man was a very unpopular decision that resulted in X being the most requested Capcom character for MvC3 DLC and later being a headliner for Infinite.

My preferred course of action is to make X and Zero into a transforming fighter. X3, Xtreme 2, X7, and X8 all allow real-time swapping between playable characters and X and Zero's friendship is a core theme across all entries in the X series. They'd function like an inverse of Pyra and Mythra, having identical stats but different movesets. X would specialize in long-range combat, Zero would specialize in mid-range combat, and they'd both struggle in short-range combat. It could make for a fun basis for a glass cannon with a ton of versatility.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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You are aware even the website directly has NumberE to designate it, right? It doesn't work.
I am. The only difference between that and what I did is that I didn't make it superscripted since you can't do that on this forum.

Heck, it's noticeable that every Echo Fighter, unlike Clones, hail strictly from the same Universe to avoid really dumb weirdness in having two characters from a different franchise in the same slot. So even that's taken into account.
I'd argue that Ganondorf is an exception. There aren't too many characters that make sense as clones at all, so to find them from two separate series is really difficult, especially with the tighter restrictions that Echo Fighters have.

All I can really think of for possible clones like that are Blaziken (Captain Falcon), Gardevoir (Zelda), and Birdo (Yoshi).

Honestly? I don't see it leaving. It's no longer plausible to kill. The entire Echo System is tied to it. Echoes aren't dropping either. They're actually different from a Model Swap Fighter entirely. A.K.A. Every other kind of clone or someone who uses a previous model to help create(this even includes freaking Ness, who is a Model Swap of Mario). It seems to not apply to those 100% unique otherwise, like Cloud, though? I think Wolf was the last one to be treated as that, so it even has limits in that regard.

Even if it did, it won't change that Echoes are hard tied to only make sense as one at a time. It's a deliberate design, and it would look really awkward to randomly have that, but not the number at all. Everyone Is Here isn't entirely the point of it either. That's misleading. The point behind it was to prevent confusion and use a very special reveal order as a consistent CSS design while also making it far easier to help understand why Echo Fighters are absolutely not a regular Model Swap Fighter.
I have no idea what you're on about with model swap fighter. If Ness used Mario as a starting point because it would be better than starting from scratch, I might buy that, but that doesn't make him a clone of Mario. They don't even share animations. Wolf makes a lot more sense since he very obviously repurposes animations from Sonic, and I think a few others, while also being close enough to Fox for him to be an obvious starting point.

As far as Echo Fighters being tied to the numbering system...Keeping the system when they don't have everyone would be way more confusing than having multiple Echo Fighters to a slot since there'd be a whole lot of skipped numbers. I suppose you could just renumber the characters, but it would still be weird, and would definitely be pretty arbitrary. Also, the numbering system makes the character select screen confusing since it splits all the series up so unless you're up to date on your Smash trivia (and even then), it's annoying to try and find who you want. It's probably why I play the DLC so much: They're in the center of the screen and thus, the easiest to find.

I think I'm going off on a tangent here, but the numbering system and Echo Fighter label exist for marketing purposes. They aren't perfect, and are pretty tied to this game's premise (at least, the numbering system is). I don't believe the Echo Fighter label is as rigid as you believe it to be, as it mainly seems to be a way to say "hey, these guys are little extras. They don't take away from other roster slots", killing a sentiment that was common despite Sakurai debunking it several times, and that was for fighters that aren't considered Echo Fighters. There's also that Dark Pit and Lucina weren't initially called Echo Fighters, which shows that the label isn't absolutely necessary, just helpful.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I still feel like since we never got an official explanation for the "Rules" of what counts as an echo, the small sample size of what we do have, and outliers like Ken and Dr. Mario. It feels pointless to try and gatekeep what should and shouldn't count as an echo.

Like obviously, there are some pretty blatant things that would make something not count as an echo.
Except we did.

They have to have the same bodyshape, period. If the animations can't work out because of that, they literally are ineligible. They can still have some different ones to a degree, but it can't be so massive that it doesn't work out(and if the entire bodyshape in compromised by the animations, you know they aren't getting that spot). It wasn't a coincidence that Isabelle was directly told could not be possible. She fit neither category. Her animations could not match Villager's whatsoever due to having an inherently different bodyshape. We also knew as well that she was built in a similar fashion to Villager while reusing a few assets, but we have found out recently she didn't use him as an actual base so much as borrow later. We have the same information on Toon Link as well, showing he took some stuff from Young Link, but we don't know enough like if he even used him as an outright base(he probably used Young Link's skeleton?).

The rest is far more unclear. Also, calling Dr. Mario an outlier is ridiculous too. He's not one. He was never a costume first and turned into a full character like Dark Pit and Lucina were. He didn't originate from Smash 4 and only fit one part(same bodyshape). His animations are also massively way too different to fit the mold, something that has been noted too. Something not present on Lucina and Dark Pit. It's just people trying too hard to justify a label on him while ignoring his entire history of creation. He was also meant to return in Brawl anyway, as a fully playable character. He's absolutely the same thing as the other Melee clones and the Smash 64 hidden characters(who only some are clones).

We don't have enough information, but we do know some things. Ken is a legitimate outlier due to having quite a few differences(though still less than you'd think it would be). Chrom is the only actual other outlier, but that's due to his animations being changed from Roy's different way he holds his sword. However, this only works in an aesthetic way, compared to different proportions and impossible to do feats. Likewise, many Echoes still have some animation changes here or there, but they aren't bodyshape-based either. Dark Samus and Daisy have light changes to keep their personality, with very slight hurtbox changes in return for Daisy. Dark Samus has a different kind and some minor animations that change her around as well, though in some different ways.

Basically? Yeah, we know a looooot. We just have a very tiny few confirmed rules. For instance, Weight is not a rule at all. It's just a consistent factor that so far, all Echoes share the same weight, and usually the same attributes otherwise(which does not refer to a move having special differences. Like Dark Samus having only electrical attacks).
--------------

To comment on Zero, it's only popularity that tends to get him in. X didn't even have a playable appearance till Infinite in the MVC series. Also, keeping in mind that MVC3 was a very dumb reason they removed MegaMan(they didn't want too many shotos, but then threw in Akuma. It was purely about function). X had no chance to get into that game cause he's just the same conceptual design as MegaMan. Zero's core thing is being a different type of character, so it wasn't hard to see why he got in. They also returned Tron Bonne as well. It's a super arbitrary thing and frankly, is a bad example of actual decisions. And that's not to mention Infinite's absolutely stupid way they handled the X-Men. It's completely reasonable to push their latest product with a different faction of Mutant-like characters. But when you remove ****ing Wolverine? You went too far. That's as dumb as removing Mario or Link entirely in Smash(updating them is one thing, and to be fair, they still play mostly the same). And no, the clones we have do not count in terms of "they're still there". They aren't. It's the character, not the moveset.

Zero is a fine choice, but X is also able to be retooled from MegaMan and is still the main character, as well as one of the few options from the same continuity. You only otherwise reasonably got Zero, Bass, ProtoMan, and Roll. It's notable how all of them but Zero are easy to retool from MegaMan, but only one of them is also able to not just be about Classic. In a twist, many of the other MegaMan themselves are intentionally meant to be similar to Classic, but their overall bodyshapes make it clear that they follow X's more adult forms as the obvious inspiration. Coupled with a lot more leeway in many cases with abilities too. They still share more of MegaMan's normal features, but are closer to X's core bodyshape. It makes sense. They want an adult character, but they're still literally MegaMan himself from an alternate universe.
 

pitchfulprocessing

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tbh if Zero got in I'd want it to be an MMZ moveset, I feel like his weaponry there is really distinct and lends itself really well to a unique moveset with stuff like the Chain Rod and Zero Knuckle. I don't think how Zero is handled in other crossovers should influence what direction Smash takes too much both in taking from them and contrasting them, but I do think it would help make Zero feel even more stand-out. Plus, I love the idea of a Sand Wilderness stage.
 
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Gengar84

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I am. The only difference between that and what I did is that I didn't make it superscripted since you can't do that on this forum.


I'd argue that Ganondorf is an exception. There aren't too many characters that make sense as clones at all, so to find them from two separate series is really difficult, especially with the tighter restrictions that Echo Fighters have.

All I can really think of for possible clones like that are Blaziken (Captain Falcon), Gardevoir (Zelda), and Birdo (Yoshi).


I have no idea what you're on about with model swap fighter. If Ness used Mario as a starting point because it would be better than starting from scratch, I might buy that, but that doesn't make him a clone of Mario. They don't even share animations. Wolf makes a lot more sense since he very obviously repurposes animations from Sonic, and I think a few others, while also being close enough to Fox for him to be an obvious starting point.

As far as Echo Fighters being tied to the numbering system...Keeping the system when they don't have everyone would be way more confusing than having multiple Echo Fighters to a slot since there'd be a whole lot of skipped numbers. I suppose you could just renumber the characters, but it would still be weird, and would definitely be pretty arbitrary. Also, the numbering system makes the character select screen confusing since it splits all the series up so unless you're up to date on your Smash trivia (and even then), it's annoying to try and find who you want. It's probably why I play the DLC so much: They're in the center of the screen and thus, the easiest to find.

I think I'm going off on a tangent here, but the numbering system and Echo Fighter label exist for marketing purposes. They aren't perfect, and are pretty tied to this game's premise (at least, the numbering system is). I don't believe the Echo Fighter label is as rigid as you believe it to be, as it mainly seems to be a way to say "hey, these guys are little extras. They don't take away from other roster slots", killing a sentiment that was common despite Sakurai debunking it several times, and that was for fighters that aren't considered Echo Fighters. There's also that Dark Pit and Lucina weren't initially called Echo Fighters, which shows that the label isn't absolutely necessary, just helpful.
I think Balrog, Vi, and Hitmonchan could probably all make for passable Little Mac clones. Probably closer to Ganondorf’s Melee clone status than an echo since they’d all have to be sized up to varying degrees.
 

Ivander

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I've already mentioned it. The biggest issue on why we have many similar stages is because most stages that came later were meant to replace stages that were in the previous game. While Melee had all 3 Donkey Kong stages at the time, when Brawl came out, we lost the 64 and Melee versions of Kongo Jungle and got Rumble Falls and 75m while Jungle Japes returned. Rumble Falls was meant to replace Melee's version of Kongo Jungle.
Then when Smash 4 came out, Jungle Japes went to the 3DS version while Kongo Jungle 64 and 75m returned to the Wii U version. The Wii U version also got Jungle Hijinx, a stage that replaced Rumble Falls as the bright jungle stage. Then obviously, when Ultimate came, we got back both Kongo Jungles, Jungle Japes and 75m, but lost Rumble Falls and Jungle Hijnix.

The issue isn't that Donkey Kong or some of the other franchises aren't incapable of other stage themes. The issue is that, whether out of familiarity or necessity, when they take out a stage for the most part, they feel the need to replace it with a similar stage that has the same theme as the one they replaced. Look between Melee and Brawl at some of the stage replacements.
  • We lost Peach's Castle from Melee, but got Luigi's Mansion in Brawl, both stages based around a building owned by a character.
  • We lost Zelda's Great Bay from Melee, but got Zelda's Pirate Ship in Brawl, both having a major water theme to them that has a ally(the Turtle in Great Bay, the King of Red Lions in Pirate Ship) that comes from the right side as another platform.
  • We lost Metroid's Brinstar Depths from Melee, but got Metroid's Frigate Orpheon in Brawl, both are stages that has a big monster in the background and has the stage flipping over.
  • We lost Mute City from Melee, and got Port Town Aero Dive in Brawl, both F-Zero stage that has the players on a platform that moves through the stage and then stops every bit and players have to sometimes dodge speeding cars that come their way.
And look at the 3DS and Wii U Stages. Each one has:
  • 2 Mario World 1 stages on each one(3D Land and New Super Mario Bros 2 on 3DS, Super Mario Bros U and Mario Galaxy on Wii U).
  • 2 Sunset-based Donkey Kong stages(Jungle Japes on 3DS, Kongo Jungle 64 on Wii U)
  • 2 Pokemon League stages(Unova on 3DS and Kalos on Wii U) and Unova was made similarly to Spear Pillar from Brawl.
  • 2 Arena-based Fire Emblem stages(Arena Ferox on 3DS and Coliseum on Wii U)
  • 2 World 1 Sonic stages(Green Hill Zone on 3DS, Windy Hill Zone on Wii U)
  • 2 NES-based stages(Balloon Fight on 3DS, Duck Hunt on Wii U before it later got ported to 3DS as well)
  • 2 Star Fox stages with the Great Fox(Corneria on 3DS, Orbital Gate Assault on Wii U)
Basically, each system had stages that were made to be similar to other stages on the other system. So of course, Ultimate would bring almost all of them back, so we end up getting a whole wack load of stages that are all very similar in structure and aesthetic because the stages that came later were meant to replace the stages that got replaced and probably weren't intended to come back.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I am. The only difference between that and what I did is that I didn't make it superscripted since you can't do that on this forum.


I'd argue that Ganondorf is an exception. There aren't too many characters that make sense as clones at all, so to find them from two separate series is really difficult, especially with the tighter restrictions that Echo Fighters have.

All I can really think of for possible clones like that are Blaziken (Captain Falcon), Gardevoir (Zelda), and Birdo (Yoshi).


I have no idea what you're on about with model swap fighter. If Ness used Mario as a starting point because it would be better than starting from scratch, I might buy that, but that doesn't make him a clone of Mario. They don't even share animations. Wolf makes a lot more sense since he very obviously repurposes animations from Sonic, and I think a few others, while also being close enough to Fox for him to be an obvious starting point.

As far as Echo Fighters being tied to the numbering system...Keeping the system when they don't have everyone would be way more confusing than having multiple Echo Fighters to a slot since there'd be a whole lot of skipped numbers. I suppose you could just renumber the characters, but it would still be weird, and would definitely be pretty arbitrary. Also, the numbering system makes the character select screen confusing since it splits all the series up so unless you're up to date on your Smash trivia (and even then), it's annoying to try and find who you want. It's probably why I play the DLC so much: They're in the center of the screen and thus, the easiest to find.

I think I'm going off on a tangent here, but the numbering system and Echo Fighter label exist for marketing purposes. They aren't perfect, and are pretty tied to this game's premise (at least, the numbering system is). I don't believe the Echo Fighter label is as rigid as you believe it to be, as it mainly seems to be a way to say "hey, these guys are little extras. They don't take away from other roster slots", killing a sentiment that was common despite Sakurai debunking it several times, and that was for fighters that aren't considered Echo Fighters. There's also that Dark Pit and Lucina weren't initially called Echo Fighters, which shows that the label isn't absolutely necessary, just helpful.
You're missing the point of Ness. The point is Clones are not Echoes. Model Swap Fighters does not only include Clones either. Echoes are extremely specific kind of Model Swap Fighters that work as different rules, including hard ones that doesn't apply otherwise. A Model Swap Fighter is the actual "Clone" term we originally had for development purposes. Where a character is used as a straight base. To include what I noted about earlier, Ness is a Model Swap Fighter but not a Clone whatsoever(a few of his animations are similar to Mario, conceptually, at best. The other trio are pretty similar in Smash 64 with some moves in comparison, with Luigi being the most similar, while still functioning quite a bit differently. Even moreso than Dr. Mario did for Mario in Melee).

Wait, are you seriously suggesting that an Echo will stay and the base won't?(I probably misread that, though, but if you are, it won't happen) No. Doesn't work that way. They are only there because the base exists. Period. It isn't confusing whatsoever. You don't need to see anything but "oh, this is their reveal number". That's it. That's the entire reason they are numbered in that order. It will never be an issue. The only way they'll cut how Echo Fighters work is if they 100% remove them, which means no, they aren't being "reformatted into a regular clone". They're either tied to the character or they don't exist. That's what an Echo is, a glorified costume(hell, no wonder Dr. Mario isn't. He wasn't a costume anyway).

Ganondorf doesn't really matter anyway. He's a Captain Falcon clone because it was the sole way he got into during Melee. The point is that Echoes are actually hard tied to franchises because a single slot will never have two characters from a different franchise. That's what it actually means. And no, Ganondorf isn't an outlier either at all. He's exactly the same as the others. Easy to make because he had the proper model to be able to be retooled from the base.

Some of those clone ideas aren't really plausible. Birdo and Yoshi function very differently to the point it would be a Wolf situation. It's way overstated how similar they are. Their models are somewhat similar. That's it. Blaziken and Gardevoir are cool mod ideas, but also, that's it. Blaziken can slightly resemble a few moves, sure. But he's just as bad as Ness is. Gardevoir has little to no similarities beyond some similar bodyshape pieces. In other words? With her capabilities, she probably could be similar enough to Wolf is to Fox if you push it. These examples were always terrible. Especially when only Ganondorf, who really isn't an outlier in how clones work, works because his actual characterization and own skills could be redefined to somewhat work with Falcon's abilities. Ganondorf literally is a physical powerhouse and it's shown even in the official artwork, of which he takes his Forward Air from.

Overall, these takes don't really make sense in development. There's too many attempts to find really strange outliers when they don't exist. It also is trying to find examples of something that don't matter. The Echo placement of being part of the same franchise, as I said above, is only because you can't have two characters from a different franchise entirely in the same slot. It doesn't work. Ganondorf has no relation to that factor and it wouldn't matter how many times a clone was made from someone else. The only thing it would mean is said clone couldn't work as an echo without extreme confusion. No more, no less(and unlike the odd Birdo thing, you aren't going to get confused by them sharing the same slot. She has been suggested as an Echo, though honestly, Boshi fits way better. Ironically he's the same technical issue, but you both know they're clearly Mario characters, eliminating the issue anyway).

A good way to put it is this; these are not exceptions or outliers. They're just unrelated coincidences at times. I mean, do we have to remind people that Falcon was built off of Samus and Jigglypuff was built off of Kirby? These are identical to Ganondorf's situation. How is he an outlier but they aren't? Exactly. Stop trying to put a round peg into a square hole to justify this. It doesn't work.

That said, fair enough on the numbering system. I don't believe it's going away absolutely, but it's very clear they have a hard Echo system set up that won't change or be modified just because the numbers are gone. The numbers are part of it, but not the most important part. It's meant to help organize it, but you still will see the same exact handling of Echoes anyway. They stay next to their counterpart, and are the only ones who can be stacked. They also are one per fighter intentionally(and way too confusing if it's more than one. Having two basically be MegaMan E is just plain confusing to everyone and... not a very good way. That's also ignoring that MegaMan is probably not eligible for an Echo to begin with, but still).
 

7NATOR

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I think it's down to X or Zero for another Mega Man rep. Mega Man X is the most popular subseries after Classic and it is presently the subseries after Classic with the most representation in Smash. Both X and Zero are very popular among the Mega Man fanbase and have a lot of merit to their inclusion. Zero is more distinct from Mega Man in terms of moveset and appearance, but X would be more unique relative to the roster as a whole and he's the only playable character in X1, which is the most popular X game and arguably the most popular in the series generally.

A lot of people seem to think Zero over X is an inevitability because "the X series became about him" and he was in Marvel vs. Capcom 3, but I really disagree with that sentiment. Beyond X4 and (debatably) X5, Zero is never really at the core of the X series' focus in a way X isn't. Inafune was indeed pretty open that Zero was his favourite character and he wanted to promote him as much as possible, but that mostly just manifested in the aforementioned X4, Zero getting his sub-plot of being a Wily Number, and Zero later getting his own series. Inafune wasn't too involved with the X games after 4. In terms of Marvel, including Zero but not some form of Mega Man was a very unpopular decision that resulted in X being the most requested Capcom character for MvC3 DLC and later being a headliner for Infinite.

My preferred course of action is to make X and Zero into a transforming fighter. X3, Xtreme 2, X7, and X8 all allow real-time swapping between playable characters and X and Zero's friendship is a core theme across all entries in the X series. They'd function like an inverse of Pyra and Mythra, having identical stats but different movesets. X would specialize in long-range combat, Zero would specialize in mid-range combat, and they'd both struggle in short-range combat. It could make for a fun basis for a glass cannon with a ton of versatility.
I just think the reason I think Zero over X is because at the end of the Day, Mega Man X would be adding another Mega Man to the Roster, A very Cool, Unique version of him, but another nonetheless. I actually do agree that X has the merits because he is the Main character and there's alot of Cool abilities in Mega Man X not in the OG series, but it's kind of the same reason why Some people (Including me) are against a character like Paper Mario, though I'm not against X as much really because Unlike Paper Mario, X really is a different entity all together in how he acts

I don't know about Transforming, but I did have the idea that X and Zero can share a moveset together in Smash so they both can get in, even if both can be Unique Individually, they can have some sort of Shared moveset that combines their abilities, since Zero can use a Buster Weapon, and X can use a Z Saber, though Zero Doesn't really have Armors like X Does. I do think even if they did share some stuff, X would have move abilities focused on his Long Range capabilities , while Zero would have more abilities focused on the Z Saber, and X can have his armor stuff as well. I do agree they would have the same stats though
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I think Balrog, Vi, and Hitmonchan could probably all make for passable Little Mac clones. Probably closer to Ganondorf’s Melee clone status than an echo since they’d all have to be sized up to varying degrees.
If they have to be sized up, they can't be Echoes, heh.

But yeah, they could be interesting ones. Ganondorf's mostly an odd one cause for the most part in Melee, he isn't that different from how Falcon is, it's just more of a power and a speed thing with a few changed moves. It depends how much you need to change them up to make work. It's possible we'd be talking more like a Semi-Clone at best depending who. Hitmochan is very notable for having so many unique moves that he would fit that much easier than Balrog who is a more traditional Boxer. I don't know who Vi is, so can't comment on the character.

I do want to see more cool mods, though. Sure, many won't work out anyway, but hey, it's just for fun. It's not actual true development for a game proper, so they don't need to follow any kind of logic beyond "rule of cool".
 

cashregister9

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I always felt like the term "Echo fighter" was just made to shut people up

and every time this discussions pops up my hatred towards that label grows more and more

"Echoes fighters can't have big changes (Unless they do)"

"Semi-clones can't be echoes (Unless they are)"

and discussions go nowhere, and Echo fighters functionally do nothing in the game itself aside from start more discourse, they were simpler to make, which is awesome! but the label has not done much.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I always felt like the term "Echo fighter" was just made to shut people up

and every time this discussions pops up my hatred towards that label grows more and more

"Echoes fighters can't have big changes (Unless they do)"

"Semi-clones can't be echoes (Unless they are)"

and discussions go nowhere, and Echo fighters functionally do nothing in the game itself aside from start more discourse.
You'd be wrong then.

The term was made because they're defined entirely differently and functions in different ways. The fact Sakurai outright said they have their own unique rules means they couldn't be like the regular clones(and to be fair? He doesn't actually use the word Clone. He uses Model Swap Fighter for everyone using a base that resembles the character. It's not entirely clear if he would use it for ones like Cloud or Bayonetta, who directly use Ike and Zero Suit Samus' data specifically, including their skeleton), but it can be presumed his lack of usage means Wolf, who still resembles Fox, is an actual legitimate treatment of the term while the others are probably not meant to be for how he uses it. Ness is the sole outlier in being nothing clone-like too, despite being one, so even that isn't perfectly defined enough. It's kind of easy to see why the fanbase uses different clone versions, heh.

The rules around them are very few, but definitely need more clear definitions, to cause less confusion.

What we do know is, based upon what you said;
  • Ken is not treated as "big changes" either. It doesn't help he does still function very very similarly to Ryu respectively. He's an outlier, as said before, though.
  • There is no such thing as a Semi-Clone being a legitimate Echo Fighter. That's a weird thing SmashWiki does because it refuses to actually properly separate Clone and Echo Fighter despite it being officially how Sakurai does it. He's just an Echo Fighter with the most amount of changes, but still counts as one. That's way more accurate that the weird way people go about it to justify it. What is true however is that his changes do make it clear, by Sakurai himself, that the Echo label is admittedly pushing it for Ken.
  • As I said before, Dr. Mario not being an Echo makes sense when he's not from Smash 4 at all. In those cases, the only Echoes taken were strictly introduced in that game, but also were first Costumes in that context. Notably, we don't know how Dr. Mario was during Melee. He could've also been a costume at first, but there's zero data to suggest it. That's why the context and timing plays more of a role just for those two characters, but not Dr. Mario.
    • Though as said, we do know Dr. Mario functions quite a bit different, despite being similar to Mario, to the point that he has to be played way more differently than Ken does from Ryu. We see the results of who is more different in the first place. While a Tier List isn't the "best", it only works that way to separate Clones/Semi-Clones/Pseudo-Clones(an odd term at the end) and Echoes solely due to gameplay differences. Unsurprising all the Echoes are pretty close to the original with only a few slightly being far away, but the regular Clones of any other kind are all over the place. That also said, him not being an Echo is arbitrary to us due to a bit of lack of information. He absolutely could be one, as he's not even a Semi-Clone, but close enough to Mario for the most part he's not too off from Ken. I think it's safe to say nobody would question it if Dark Pit and Lucina weren't treated as Echoes, though. Heck, maybe they're the outliers? XD
  • No Semi-Clone was made into an Echo. I really don't know where you're going with that one?
  • Well, no, Echo discussion happens a lot. There's still a lot of choices that people look at that make sense while still fitting the tiny information we have. The discourse is people not doing a lick of research and just attempting to throw a round peg into a square hole for the sake of filling a quota, not at least trying to see why it could or could not work. I won't disagree that it is a controversial subject, though.
Part of the issue also stems from Sakurai not even using Clone at any point. In fact, it's worth noting that Echo Fighter is really the only time he pretty much defines someone as "being extremely similar as the core concept" anyway. None of the Model Swap Fighters were treated as specifically clones in the same way, since the whole point was just that they could be retooled from base. That's where a lot of the confusion is. Our definition of Clone does not match what Sakurai ever said. To go back to SmashWiki, it even notes that "Clone" is an unofficial term/basically fan lingo. It's safe to say they really should make a page for Model Swap Fighter since it's not really an odd or hard to understand official terminology anyway.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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As for a Proto Man Echo Fighter, here are my proposed minor changes:
  • While standing, he holds a shield in front of him that blocks projectiles. This is how it works in Mega Man: Powered Up sans the whole dropping it after blocking 1 hit part.
    • Thinking about it, the ability to just jump through projectiles is way too strong in a fighting game. He'd just invalidate all the projectiles zoners. This way it's just a fun nod to the mechanic that doesn't change much.
  • His primary weapon is the Proto Buster. It takes the place of, and is stronger than the Mega Buster, but only fires two shots at a time, so Proto Man has to be a bit more careful where he places his shots.
  • His up tilt is Knight Crush. He swings a mace ball over his head similar to the Belmonts' up tilt. It works as an anti-air directly above him, but lacks the monstrous K.O. power of Mega Upper.
    • An official Proto Man Echo Fighter probably just give him Mega Upper, but it would bother me, so I'm adding the change.
  • His up special is Proto Coil, a reskin of Rush Coil.
  • His down special is Star Crash, a reskin of Leaf Shield.
  • His neutral special is Shadow Blade, working similarly to how it does in Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3Ds/Wii U. It has more offensive utility as a regular projectile, and still serves the same purpose of stopping approaches, but has less range, and can't be used as an item, which lowers Star Crash's practicality by a lot.
    • This is the biggest change, and I'm not sure if they'd actually do something like this, but I believe this change alone would make picking Proto Man over Mega Man a meaningful choice, and hopefully not in a way that just makes him a worse version of the character.
  • His Final Smash is Big Bang Strike, a Zero Laser style beam super that damages him a little, or one of the many screen nukes in the series.
    • If you were to go the screen nuke route, Astro Crush could be functionally similar or identical to PK Starstorm.
  • Animation changes for his idle, taunt, and victory animations, and if possible, to his Proto Buster animation (he fires with the arm opposite of the direction he's facing).
 

Pupp135

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What 3rd party characters do you think are likely for base game and which ones are likely for DLC?
I’m uncertain, but here are some fighters that I can see:
Bomberman (if Konami licensing works out)
Tails
Shadow
Arle
Chun Li
Dante
Lloyd / Yuri (Tales)
Master Chief
Doom Slayer
Rayman
Altair / Ezio
Sans
Shantae

What if they brought back Link and Zelda's Melee taunts?
I liked Zelda’s Melee taunt, so I’d be happy to see it again.
 

Perkilator

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For Alm, I think he might fit better as a Link Echo based primarily on Smash 4 Link, with some other moves changed for good measure.
Going back to this, here are the changes I'd make to Alm compared to Link:
  • Down Aerial: Deicide; A variation of Link’s Down Thrust (18% with a meteor effect, medium knockback). Unlike Link’s version, Alm doesn’t bounce off of opponents; instead, the move is a stall-then-fall.
  • Forward Smash: Double Lion; A two-handed, lunging downward slash (9%) followed by a single-handed outward slash (9%, medium knockback). Unlike Link’s, Alm doesn’t have sword beams at 0%.
  • B : Bow & Arrow; Alm charges an arrow that travels a set distance depending on how long B is held (4-12%, small knockback). Unlike Link, Alm cannot pick up arrows and use them as items.
  • B + Forwards : Crosswise Cut; Alm readies himself to charge forward and perform a lunging forward slash (13%, OK knockback)
  • B + Up : Windsweep; A variation of Link’s Spin Attack (14%, OK knockback)
  • B + Down : Defensive; Alm kneels down and raises his shield to reflect projectiles. However, this move can only protect from the front.
  • Final Smash: Scendscale; Celica appears via a Warp Circle and casts Ragnarok Ω on any opponents in front of Alm (10%). If it connects, the opponents are taken into a cutscene where Alm tosses his shield to the side before he and Celica perform a massive slash with the Royal Sword and Beloved Zofia enveloped in orange and blue flames, instantly K.O,-ing any opponents above 100% (45%, far knockback).
 
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Gorgonzales

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The biggest issue on why we have many similar stages is because most stages that came later were meant to replace stages that were in the previous game. While Melee had all 3 Donkey Kong stages at the time, when Brawl came out, we lost the 64 and Melee versions of Kongo Jungle and got Rumble Falls and 75m while Jungle Japes returned. Rumble Falls was meant to replace Melee's version of Kongo Jungle.

Then when Smash 4 came out, Jungle Japes went to the 3DS version while Kongo Jungle 64 and 75m returned to the Wii U version. The Wii U version also got Jungle Hijinx, a stage that replaced Rumble Falls as the bright jungle stage. Then obviously, when Ultimate came, we got back both Kongo Jungles, Jungle Japes and 75m, but lost Rumble Falls and Jungle Hijnix.

Basically, each system had stages that were made to be similar to other stages on the other system. So of course, Ultimate would bring almost all of them back, so we end up getting a whole wack load of stages that are all very similar in structure and aesthetic because the stages that came later were meant to replace the stages that got replaced and probably weren't intended to come back.
This is a fair point, and honestly this brought up a larger issue to my attention: I don't think it's sustainable to keep making new "variants" of older stages every time there's a new Smash. When Mario's stage legacy in Smash is an eyesore of 13 different boring grassy fields, that is a problem.

I guess the best solution would be for Smash to designate one or two stages per series to be "The representative stage" that showcases an iconic location that many players will be familiar with (Princess Peach's Castle & Mario Galaxy for Mario, Temple and Pirate Ship for Zelda, Fountain of Dreams for Kirby, etc).

Keep these "representative stages" around for new games to serve as a base for repping these series locations, then add more unique location/themed stages on top of these previously established stages. This isn't a perfect solution, but it's all I can think of for the moment.... but there HAS to be a better way of doing things than slapping the most recent "Level One™" from Mario into Smash every time it gets a new game.
 
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PeridotGX

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Going back to this, here are the changes I'd make to Alm compared to Link:
  • Down Aerial: Deicide; A variation of Link’s Down Thrust (18% with a meteor effect, medium knockback). Unlike Link’s version, Alm doesn’t bounce off of opponents; instead, the move is a stall-then-fall.
  • Forward Smash: Double Lion; A two-handed, lunging downward slash (9%) followed by a single-handed outward slash (9%, medium knockback). Unlike Link’s, Alm doesn’t have sword beams at 0%.
  • B : Bow & Arrow; Alm charges an arrow that travels a set distance depending on how long B is held (4-12%, small knockback). Unlike Link, Alm cannot pick up arrows and use them as items.
  • B + Forwards : Crosswise Cut; Alm readies himself to charge forward and perform a lunging forward slash (13%, OK knockback)
  • B + Up : Windsweep; A variation of Link’s Spin Attack (14%, OK knockback)
  • B + Down : Defensive; Alm kneels down and raises his shield to reflect projectiles. However, this move can only protect from the front.
  • Final Smash: Scendscale; Celica appears via a Warp Circle and casts Ragnarok Ω on any opponents in front of Alm (10%). If it connects, the opponents are taken into a cutscene where Alm tosses his shield to the side before he and Celica perform a massive slash with the Royal Sword and Beloved Zofia enveloped in orange and blue flames, instantly K.O,-ing any opponents above 100% (45%, far knockback).
Alm over Link is a really intresting choice - but I like it! Back when we all thought Chrom would be an Ike echo, I thought Alm would be a pretty good candidate for Roy (with animations flipped to keep him a leftie and maybe with a bow neutral b).

On the topic of cross series clones... for a while, I was deadset on Susie Haltmann as an echo for Bowser Jr. She would probably need to be a semi clone instead, but I think it could be done.
 

Laniv

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Going back to this, here are the changes I'd make to Alm compared to Link:
  • Down Aerial: Deicide; A variation of Link’s Down Thrust (18% with a meteor effect, medium knockback). Unlike Link’s version, Alm doesn’t bounce off of opponents; instead, the move is a stall-then-fall.
  • Forward Smash: Double Lion; A two-handed, lunging downward slash (9%) followed by a single-handed outward slash (9%, medium knockback). Unlike Link’s, Alm doesn’t have sword beams at 0%.
  • B : Bow & Arrow; Alm charges an arrow that travels a set distance depending on how long B is held (4-12%, small knockback). Unlike Link, Alm cannot pick up arrows and use them as items.
  • B + Forwards : Crosswise Cut; Alm readies himself to charge forward and perform a lunging forward slash (13%, OK knockback)
  • B + Up : Windsweep; A variation of Link’s Spin Attack (14%, OK knockback)
  • B + Down : Defensive; Alm kneels down and raises his shield to reflect projectiles. However, this move can only protect from the front.
  • Final Smash: Scendscale; Celica appears via a Warp Circle and casts Ragnarok Ω on any opponents in front of Alm (10%). If it connects, the opponents are taken into a cutscene where Alm tosses his shield to the side before he and Celica perform a massive slash with the Royal Sword and Beloved Zofia enveloped in orange and blue flames, instantly K.O,-ing any opponents above 100% (45%, far knockback).
Okay, first, A++ down-air name.

Second, are cross-series echoes viable? Because if so...

1713921679728.png


It's time.
 

superprincess

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For Marth at the very least, I’d pick Celica as an Echo with variations of Marth’s normals, Roy’s up special and Robin’s neutral, side and down specials
This doesn't work at all... echoes need to be balanced relative to their source character only.
Hypothetically, if they de-echoed Chrom and Lucina for the next game, but they still really wanted Marth and Roy to have echoes for some reason, who would you pick for the honor?
Leif for Marth and Alm for Roy. I know Alm is left handed but they could just mirror Roy's animations.
 

superprincess

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this even includes freaking Ness, who is a Model Swap of Mario
Sakurai never ever used the terminology "model swap fighter" to refer to Ness. He simply mentioned that Ness is based on Mario's skeleton, like Captain Falcon is based on Samus'.

"Model swap fighter" was a short-lived term that was only used for the Melee clones on the SSBM website. Never used for Ness or any 64 characters.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Huh, cut the clones.

Oh, look, we get barely any newcomers within the franchise since it's cut almost in half. Strange.

Oh, wait, every fighting game and even other games add them because it's ten times smarter to reuse assets anyway. Also, notably, removing those clones doesn't get us anything whatsoever in return. All of them combined do not "make for an easy fully unique character".

We wouldn't have Ness of all people without it. Likewise, they won't get decloned either. Without asset reusage from the base, they are not even plausible to make. No matter how you go about it, extreme moveset changes is bad. It was not popular in any game and further hurt competition because players couldn't adapt to massive changes at any point. Nobody can. It's not possible. It just forces them to try someone who can mesh with what they want. Minor changes like we keep getting not only further make them really fun and unique, it actually made them easy to get into. It's extremely rare in Smash for someone to drop a character, and it's only because a move they relied on as part of their playstyle was gone.

You know, it'd also suck if this was the roster(remember, no bases! Not even unique guys. Model Swap Fighters are all removed with this in mind);

Mario
Donkey Kong
Link
Samus
Yoshi
Kirby
Fox
Pikachu
Peach
Bowser
Ice Climbers
Sheik
Mewtwo
Mr. Game & Watch
Meta Knight
Pit
Zero Suit Samus
Wario
Snake
Ike
Pokemon Trainer(Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard)
Diddy Kong
Sonic
King Dedede
Pikmin & Olimar(FYI, you don't get an Alph alt either. It was noted that the alt was added as a specialized model swap. And only because Pikmin & Alph was considered as playable)
Lucario
R.O.B.
Villager
MegaMan
Wii Fit Trainer
Rosalina
Little Mac
Greninja
Mii Fighters(unique case, as they are not actual swaps. However, since they have specialized costumes, we probably wouldn't get them either by not allowing reused assets to help with characters)
Palutena
Pac-Man
Robin
Shulk
Bowser Jr.(no Koopalings)
Duck Hunt
Ryu
Inkling
Ridley
King K. Rool
Incineroar
Joker
Banjo & Kazooie
Min Min
Sephiroth
Kazuya
Sora

Anyone with a male/female form may lose those alts too for only the "default design". No model swaps, remember. Steve/Alex and Pyra/Mythra both are heavy assets or clone-like reusage. Can't use them with this in mind.

Special note to Terry and Kazuya who likely used some of Ryu's assets for a lot of their stuff. Hero absolutely used bits from Link, so is disqualified. Also, tons of Model Swaps even then to make it work. We have close to 60. Instead of 80. Pretty bad cuts for no legitimate reason. This is why it doesn't happen, because it makes no sense. Especially when you have to not allow any Model Swaps at all as part of the same rule. They are the core of what creates any kind of Clones, besides just Echoes. Neither Belmont are allowed in either, because they directly took assets from each other. They're the same as Pyra and Mythra in that regard. Ouch.

As for why is Piranha Plant not there? Despite being unique? Because it used Bowser Jr. as a base for its model. Automatically disqualified. Do I need to go on? No. Because they don't suck no matter how you go about it. Only the Echoes sometimes are poorly done at best, while the rest are actually legitimately stand out. The clone hate is honestly unjustified at this point and shows exactly why it's a bad idea. Look at that massive cut list just for the sake of it.

To last note, many of these are confirmed to share animations with others, which is why they are hard removed as possible use. This may sound extreme, but it is what it directly means to be not be allowed to use any kind of Model Swaps. Do note there's probably many more I missed. But yes, a tiny roster is the only other choice. Pick your poison. The fact Peach was used to make some of Zelda should tell you something about how poor this idea is too.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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Oh yeah. I think I got sidetracked when we talked about an updated Link. Here's my predictions:
  • Remote Bomb is replaced with Bomb Flower. It's functionally identical to his non remote bombs.
  • While holding a Bomb Flower, using Bow and Arrows will fuse the bomb to an arrow, giving you a higher powered arrow projectile.
    • If they were willing to go a little crazy, they could allow the fusion mechanic to work in this way with all items, with a few giving the arrows special properties.
 

Ivander

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Has anyone else noticed that Nintendo has been releasing games for NSO more recently from each other? Like at the least before, it was like every month, but recently it's been happening twice per month.
  • Like on December we got Harvest Moon, 1080 Snowboarding and Jet Force Gemini,
  • Than in January we got Golden Sun and Lost Age.
  • Then in February we got the 5 Rare games like Killer Instinct and Blast Corps.
  • Before the middle of March we got Mario Golf, Mario Tennis and Dr. Mario for Gameboy, but then at the end of March we got F-Zero Maximum Velocity.
  • Then before the middle of April, we got Wrecking Crew '98, R-Type and the one Japanese game. Now we're near the end of April and we just got these 2 new games.
Before there used to be notable gaps between NSO batch releases(like the last NSO release before Decembers was in October), then we started getting them once a month, now we've recently been getting them twice a month. Hopefully, this trend continues.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Has anyone else noticed that Nintendo has been releasing games for NSO more recently from each other? Like at the least before, it was like every month, but recently it's been happening twice per month.
  • Like on December we got Harvest Moon, 1080 Snowboarding and Jet Force Gemini,
  • Than in January we got Golden Sun and Lost Age.
  • Then in February we got the 5 Rare games like Killer Instinct and Blast Corps.
  • Before the middle of March we got Mario Golf, Mario Tennis and Dr. Mario for Gameboy, but then at the end of March we got F-Zero Maximum Velocity.
  • Then before the middle of April, we got Wrecking Crew '98, R-Type and the one Japanese game. Now we're near the end of April and we just got these 2 new games.
Before there used to be notable gaps between NSO batch releases(like the last NSO release before Decembers was in October), then we started getting them once a month, now we've recently been getting them twice a month. Hopefully, this trend continues.
I'm just glad we're getting them reasonably en masse. Killer Instinct was grand, though I'm still hoping we get the Game Boy game and eventually KI Gold.

I won't ever get the ones I want the most(and I am still disappointed in them releasing the versions of the Oracle Zelda games without the GBA pieces. Like, why would you release something you can't 100% when it's only a fix that requires a tad more licensing? It's still dumb on the NSO, but at least it's among a ton of other games you are essentially paying a lot less than they're all worth combined, but it's unjustified on the 3DS rerelease when you pay a real price for them. And quite a lot too).
 

dream1ng

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Has anyone else noticed that Nintendo has been releasing games for NSO more recently from each other? Like at the least before, it was like every month, but recently it's been happening twice per month.
  • Like on December we got Harvest Moon, 1080 Snowboarding and Jet Force Gemini,
  • Than in January we got Golden Sun and Lost Age.
  • Then in February we got the 5 Rare games like Killer Instinct and Blast Corps.
  • Before the middle of March we got Mario Golf, Mario Tennis and Dr. Mario for Gameboy, but then at the end of March we got F-Zero Maximum Velocity.
  • Then before the middle of April, we got Wrecking Crew '98, R-Type and the one Japanese game. Now we're near the end of April and we just got these 2 new games.
Before there used to be notable gaps between NSO batch releases(like the last NSO release before Decembers was in October), then we started getting them once a month, now we've recently been getting them twice a month. Hopefully, this trend continues.
I certainly hope the pace continues, though I worry things might get a bit drier if some of the NSO releases were either going to be tied to games on Switch 2 (perhaps DK64 and DKR), or there was to be a whole new system added with that console.

Not that there isn't still stuff to add - Genesis and GBA especially still have a lot, and they could always add something lower profile like Game Gear, but I wonder if the NSO slate will to some degree mirror what the rest of 2024 looks like it'll be: sparser than usual.

Of course I have no idea why Smash 64 never shows up in a timely manner (if at all), and that seems like it could be dropped at any time. Maybe they'll get that one out if the physical release schedule is looking particularly dire.
 

Pupp135

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I certainly hope the pace continues, though I worry things might get a bit drier if some of the NSO releases were either going to be tied to games on Switch 2 (perhaps DK64 and DKR), or there was to be a whole new system added with that console.

Not that there isn't still stuff to add - Genesis and GBA especially still have a lot, and they could always add something lower profile like Game Gear, but I wonder if the NSO slate will to some degree mirror what the rest of 2024 looks like it'll be: sparser than usual.

Of course I have no idea why Smash 64 never shows up in a timely manner (if at all), and that seems like it could be dropped at any time. Maybe they'll get that one out if the physical release schedule is looking particularly dire.
I’d love to see SSB64 on Switch online, and my best guess for it not being available is that either Itoi or The Pokemon Company (the more likely explanation) doesn’t want it.
 
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It shouldn't matter whether it's a first level/world stage or not if it's the most fitting to represent that game/franchise. I do think it matters to have enough stages that are very easy to associate to their respective games/franchises, and that lots of players are familiar with; naturally this favors early-game areas to some degree, but not entirely and not to the point that I think it should prevent a diverse stage lineup.
Even with the above line of thinking, there's still room for a lot of amazing later-game locales. We have some shining examples already in the game, and I can think of plenty of others I'd like to see.
I agree.
Honestly, i hope Smash 6 has mostly new stages, i know it's a hot take, but a nearly new brand stage roster would be really fresh (with some few past stages of course).
Maybe MinMin gets Ramen Bowl in Smash 6 lol.
 

Gorgonzales

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Hooray! We've reached the N64's barrel-scrapping phase! Though FWIW, I hear these games are pretty underrated.
A bit disingenuous to call it barrel-scraping when there's still Banjo-Tooie, DK64, Diddy Kong Racing, and Smash 64 to account for.

But I suppose they have to drag out these releases for excruciatingly long to justify NSO's grossly overpriced subscription fees... yay for capitalism.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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I agree.
Honestly, i hope Smash 6 has mostly new stages, i know it's a hot take, but a nearly new brand stage roster would be really fresh (with some few past stages of course).
Maybe MinMin gets Ramen Bowl in Smash 6 lol.
For a returning stage roster, how about this:
  • Battlefield
  • Small Battlefield
  • Big Battlefield
  • Final Destination
  • Rainbow Cruise
  • Temple
  • Corneria
  • Pokémon Stadium X (Still don't know why those are two separate stages)
  • Onett
  • WarioWare, Inc.
  • Smashville
  • Summit
  • Flat Zone X
  • Boxing Ring
  • Wuhu Island
  • Whatever stages that come with the surviving 3rd party characters.
 
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Swamp Sensei

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Looking at the way they handle some NSO announcements, I'm thinking that if DK64, Diddy Kong Racing and Super Smash Bros happen, they'll be part of a bigger set of announcements, like part of a Direct or something.
Speaking of directs.

We need one. We have next to no news on the latter half of 2024. No console's tease or anything.

What's going on?
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I'll take Sector Z over Corneria this time. Seriously, give the classic larger stage a chance to shine. And no, they don't operate the same. Corneria is meant to be an evolution of the stage, but its size is way too small and it kind of ruins the atmosphere(okay, it has a very different background focused on daytime instead of being in space, so it literally ruins the atmosphere too).

That, or give Sector Z back, but with the specific guns from Corneria as a fusion. Not unlike Flat Zone X. I also want to see Planet Zebes return instead of Brinstar. Giving those oldest ones more love would be really fun in general. They are redundant with the new stages, but how can they be redundant if the new stages aren't there? It'd be a fun change up to the formula. Plus, we have tons of much smaller/easier to work with stages, so having a few crazy ones is quite great~
 

CannonStreak

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I'll take Sector Z over Corneria this time. Seriously, give the classic larger stage a chance to shine. And no, they don't operate the same. Corneria is meant to be an evolution of the stage, but its size is way too small and it kind of ruins the atmosphere(okay, it has a very different background focused on daytime instead of being in space, so it literally ruins the atmosphere too).

That, or give Sector Z back, but with the specific guns from Corneria as a fusion. Not unlike Flat Zone X. I also want to see Planet Zebes return instead of Brinstar. Giving those oldest ones more love would be really fun in general. They are redundant with the new stages, but how can they be redundant if the new stages aren't there? It'd be a fun change up to the formula. Plus, we have tons of much smaller/easier to work with stages, so having a few crazy ones is quite great~
Funny you should mention Sector Z.

I missed that stage, and I wanted that stage to return in Smash Bros. Ultimate.
 

Gorgonzales

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For a returning stage roster, how about this:
  • Battlefield
  • Small Battlefield
  • Big Battlefield
  • Final Destination
  • Rainbow Cruise
  • Temple
  • Corneria
  • Pokémon Stadium X (Still don't know why those are two separate stages)
  • Onett
  • WarioWare, Inc.
  • Smashville
  • Summit
  • Flat Zone X
  • Boxing Ring
  • Wuhu Island
  • Whatever stages that come with the surviving 3rd party characters.


I'd argue it could be trimmed down even further, but I wouldn't mind this as the returning stage list. (I agree with the others on Sector Z being in over Corneria. I like the bigger ship.)

Except for that last bullet point. I don't want any development time dedicated to polishing up Windy Hill or Pac-Land.

Honestly I think BBF and SBF could be given new theming based on existing series and made into those "recurring stages" I suggested earlier. Would give them a bit more spice.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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Except for that last bullet point. I don't want any development time dedicated to polishing up Windy Hill or Pac-Land.
Yeah I kinda threw that out as a catch all, but some 3rd parties could just get new stages, and not all of their old stages need to come back if they have more than one. I also forgot to add Poké Floats, but like, a remastered version with more/different Pokémon, though that might count as a new stage.

Also also, I like the idea of replacing Corneria with Sector Z.
 
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