Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Hadokeyblade]

For Mega Man, looking it up, I guess I understand why .EXE got the mii costume because it does seem like EXE is the most popular Mega man in Japan period. I Still think Zero would be the option for next Mega Man character, but maybe if they bring Custom Moves and alternate ways to pay characters, they could incorporate the other versions of Mega Man into playable

Personally i think Megaman.EXE should get a spot in smash if Megaman gets another character.

Sure Zero is most likely but EXE would be my prefered choice, maybe if Megaman got a third character as unlikely as that is.

 

[BuckleyTim]

it'd be funny if we do a semi-reboot on the stage list because that means pretty much every other series will get the problem newer franchises have where they have tons of song selection but like 1 stage to use them on (besides the random all on battlefield / final destination)

 

[SPEN18]

I agree.
Honestly, i hope Smash 6 has mostly new stages, i know it's a hot take, but a nearly new brand stage roster would be really fresh (with some few past stages of course).

There are a lot of stages that I would like to see back; I'm personally not asking for a complete do-over. But some cleaning of the house and very many new stages, yes. Some meaningful updates to some returning stages would also be nice, too.

 

[Louie G.]

Except for that last bullet point. I don't want any development time dedicated to polishing up Windy Hill or Pac-Land.

To piggyback off that, bringing back Pac-Maze back is a must. I’ve said it several times before but it really feels like Pac-Man is missing his home without it. By now it should be an unshakable series staple.

The rest of the third party stages… it does at least feel like we have the most essential, central location for most of them. I wouldn’t mind some being retired for the time being in favor of new ones, but there wouldn’t be too much harm in say… Green Hill and Casino Night or Station Square, or whatever. And Street Fighter pretty desperately needs an actual “street” stage.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

To piggyback off that, bringing back Pac-Maze back is a must. I’ve said it several times before but it really feels like Pac-Man is missing his home without it. By now it should be an unshakable series staple.

The rest of the third party stages… it does at least feel like we have the most essential, central location for most of them. I wouldn’t mind some being retired for the time being in favor of new ones, but there wouldn’t be too much harm in say… Green Hill and Casino Night or Station Square, or whatever. And Street Fighter pretty desperately needs an actual “street” stage.

I want Kens stage from Street fighter Alpha 2 to be used as a second SF stage.

I think that would be a good idea

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Suzaku Castle is such a weird stage. You're either smooshed against the blast zone or playing king of the hill on tiny platforms.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Sakurai never ever used the terminology "model swap fighter" to refer to Ness. He simply mentioned that Ness is based on Mario's skeleton, like Captain Falcon is based on Samus'.

"Model swap fighter" was a short-lived term that was only used for the Melee clones on the SSBM website. Never used for Ness or any 64 characters.

Spoiler: Long

Actually, it isn't a short-lived term. In fact, a silly translation used Clones instead of Model Swap Fighter during a Smash 4 interview to make it "sound better", which also ignores its whole point. My bad on the Ness thing, but he didn't use skeleton either.

“In general, we do reuse animations. When you consider the alternative– putting even more pressure on an already stringent schedule, and removing one character (Jigglypuff), what we did was the best option, right? I think we worked pretty hard, though. Normal polygon (3D) based fighting games recycle the same damage and walk animations, after all.”

On Character Selection: Smash 64

Nantendo gives his opinion on why the original cast was chosen.

sourcegaming.info

That said, he still never ever has once used Clone in an interview proper. No stock should be put into it as an official term as there's zero evidence of it. Model Swap Fighter is still the only official term used other than Echo(until we get more actual information otherwise).

https://www.ssbwiki.com/SmashWiki:26TP/Dr._Mario Also, we have the translation of the Melee website. He still uses "Modal Change Characters"(albeit, that's just an odd way Google Translation works), but Change and Swap are the same meaning. It is actually present during Melee too. You are right it's not there for Ness(though neither is the skeleton remark. We only really have "reused animations" and "polygons"(which does mean model). He more or less alludes to the concept, at best. Brawl however doesn't have it on the website. However...

"Sakurai: For Krystal, we didn’t have any of the technical modeling knowledge that we had cultivated with Fox and Falco, so it was like making a brand-new character from scratch. And because of the limited amount of time we had, creating Krystal wasn’t realistically possible. On that point, with Wolf we already have some knowledge of how to model his character, and would require about 70% of the effort required to create a whole new character."

Sakurai answers some (old) questions– about Brawl!

These questions were part of a two-part article that was published shortly after Brawl’s release, in the magazine Nintendo Dream, featuring a bunch of reader questions, which Sakurai answered…

sourcegaming.info

It's pretty clear it was purely about the modeling, not the skeleton. Sakurai doesn't really go on very often about skeletons as much as he does models. It kind of makes sense. He adopted the term Model Swap Fighter instead of Clone as early as Melee. Isabelle is the last one he speaks on in any case of various "reuse of assets", but doesn't actually refer to her as more than "fundamentally different bodyshape", which pretty much confirms that an Echo Fighter(in that context) cannot have a clearly different bodyshape. And let's be real, bodyshape actually means model. Likewise, let's also be real that a Model Swap Fighter does change around a skeleton too(that's how Link became Young Link respectively). However, Skeleton can't make much sense in Ness' case as the reason why. His Model is known to already be near identical to Mario's. They have different Skeletons as shown in-game(Ness has a much fatter one with less spots, despite the almost identical Model. Which is actually kind of odd) and the animations are actually pretty different at times. Besides the fact that he never refers to it as a Skeleton anyway.

Mario and Luigi's skeletons(the first two) are almost the same(very slightly differences) and Ness' is quite different.

However, by comparing the Polygons, Mario and Luigi are near identical and Ness is barely changed. His "Skeleton" got the most modified.

Though if you overall mean that his Skeleton got the most changes when creating him and I'm misunderstanding your point, my bad. Then again, we haven't seen his exact Skeleton compared to his Model so it's a bit harder to parse. Obviously they have similarities, though it's worth noting that characters who have changed Skeletons outright(ignoring the electric thing, as it might not be related at all to any kind skeletal remapping) also were actually different bodyshapes. Young Link is a perfect example of it(though it's not always the case for the Melee ones. None of the Smash 64 characters have new Skeletons or Models outright. Just modified Models). That said, again, if you mean it as mostly the same thing, then my bad. They're pretty much the same point in terms of basic understanding(there is a difference, respectively, but it's not really outside of two games where they're blatantly made different).

To go back to Young Link, he's noted as having a different bodytype on the website too. While it doesn't use Model Swap, this is probably the closest we got to a straight reference to changing the Skeleton outright. In fact, looking at it, Different Bodytype is probably the most logical term he means when it comes to Skeleton changing. (Different Bodyshape is obviously the exact same thing, anyway in this case, though it could be just, as I said, translation oddities). If it helps, the various character pages tend to go over the place like some kind of article so you have to piecemeal all the details. Even Pichu's page isn't just about itself. "Actually, even making the character models to secure their slot is not easy, and I know that it would make me, the person who adjusts character parameters the most (like attack power and jumps), busier than it would anyone else." It's also a time he talks about attributes/parameters. Another notable paragraph is;
"There, we prepared characters that shared Special Moves and motions (movement) with some of the other characters in order to save programming and motion creation time, but while looking and feeling different.
This is just like Luigi to Mario in the previous game."

The thing that makes that notable is he's referring to all the Model Swap Fighters in the same sense as Luigi. Even those with different bodyshapes. Overall, yeah, he does confirm that Ness is a Model Swap Fighter in retrospect(like the rest of them), but he also never directly spoke of the exact model factors in Smash 64, which means our details is still ambiguous.

It's kind of hard to explain due to tons of details. It's pretty much best just to say "Yeah, he's a model swap fighter. No, that doesn't mean he's a clone anyway". That's really the details overall and what it gives us. Brawl is also the first game to not acknowledge this, whereas Melee at least confirms it worked the same way to any degree in Smash 64(and it's perfectly fair to think it was just meant for Luigi too, respectively. Especially as the rest are pretty clearly very unique enough that it's an awkward situation).

To close, Model Swap Fighter, with our details, is yes, the way he did things in Smash 64. It's just only hard confirmed that he treated Luigi as one by the time of Melee, but it doesn't mean he used the specific term in 64(thank you for correcting me on that), but it's just a retroactive thing. Brawl has no hints of it. Ultimate doesn't either. I hope I didn't miss any core details. If there's better interviews or information on Smash 64(I legit don't know where you found the Skeleton bit, but please do cite it. That's really cool information to have).

--------------

I know people want Pac-Maze back, but it was killed for more than one reason. It wasn't really plausible with the Stage Swap mechanic, nor was it plausible to keep the original mechanic of the stage. It was a necessary cut for Ultimate. They can absolutely remake it without the same mechanic in 6, and I hope it comes back too. I wasn't a big fan of how annoying the stage got, but it still deserves to be here. Pac-Land isn't great either(it's just slightly less annoying for me to play on). Also, why did they think the Stage Swap thing needed to be for every stage? Just disable it on some. We didn't need the normal Pac-Maze mechanic(which really didn't work outside of everyone having their own screen) either. The cut was silly in that regard. But moreso for not making Stage Swap better. I can respect the purpose behind the mechanic too, which was cool, but uh... not much reason to worry about returning it. :/

I'm aware the stages were made from scratch too. That even makes the cut much worse since it wasn't hard to remake but change how it works(or just don't have the mechanic). It'd be a downgraded version, obviously, but let's not pretend the mechanic is the main reason people are annoyed by the cut. It's Pac-Maze, for crying out loud.

 

[Louie G.]

I want Kens stage from Street fighter Alpha 2 to be used as a second SF stage.

I think that would be a good idea

My pick is one of Chun-Li’s street market stages, but this would be a great choice also. Honestly most viable choices would be more exciting than Suzaku Castle… I get why they went with that one, but it’s not a favorite of mine.

After the KOF stage was able to fit in so many nods to its own characters, it’s a shame Street Fighter doesn’t have the same liberty seeing how it’s prone to do the same thing. I don’t necessarily think every stage needs a ton of cameos or whatever but the precedent has already been set, and Street Fighter feels kind of empty in comparison.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

My pick is one of Chun-Li’s street market stages, but this would be a great choice also. Honestly most viable choices would be more exciting than Suzaku Castle… I get why they went with that one, but it’s not a favorite of mine.

After the KOF stage was able to fit in so many nods to its own characters, it’s a shame Street Fighter doesn’t have the same liberty seeing how it’s prone to do the same thing. I don’t necessarily think every stage needs a ton of cameos or whatever but the precedent has already been set, and Street Fighter feels kind of empty in comparison.

Thats why i thought Kens alpha 2 stage could work.

Since its set during a party where the background is full of cameos, keep the same cameos of the Darkstalkers cast but also add the SF characters to the party setting

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Thats why i thought Kens alpha 2 stage could work.

Since its set during a party where the background is full of cameos, keep the same cameos of the Darkstalkers cast but also add the SF characters to the party setting

Oh that stage! Could be fun.

Inb4 they extend the pool into the play area so the right side of the stage is all water.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Fire Emblem has never gotten two Echoes to a character.

You know damn well we have 4 Marths.

Their bodyshape must be the same with barely a millimeter of difference once chosen.

That's not even true of alt costumes. Why would it be true of Echoes?

Male and Female Wii Fit Trainer don't have the same body shape. Neither do M/F Corrin or Byleth. Or any of the Koopalings.

The Smash team unironically needs to just do better when it comes to selecting stages. I don't know how you look at the vast portfolio of unique/iconic locations you have at your disposal and go, "know what DK could use? Another jungle level".

WINDMILL HILLS!!

Not keen on how the existence of echo fighters seemingly makes so many people try to shove movesets of characters that flat out don't fit onto potential newcomers that could be their own things

It's the only way those characters will make it in. And I'd rather they be playable than not.

It shouldn't matter whether it's a first level/world stage or not if it's the most fitting to represent that game/franchise.

That's all we and good for a series' first Smash Stage.

There's no excuse for that kind of lack of creativity once a series is 3-4 Stages deep.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

What new items, assists or pokeballs you'd like to see?

As far as assists go:

Chocobo (Final fantasy 7)
Majima (Yakuza)
Ratsel (Super Robot Wars Original Generation)
Meow Wow (Kingdom Hearts, this one will never happen but i think it would be neat)

I think Ratsel would be a neat assist trophy, they could reference the meme within the SRWOG series where his theme song is blasting everytime he shows up and just replace whatever music is currently playing on the stage with his theme song.

 

[DarthEnderX]

What new items, assists or pokeballs you'd like to see?

Assist Trophies
King Hippo [Punch-Out]
Eggplant Wizard [Kid Icarus]
Protoman [Mega Man]
Chocobo, Cactuars or Tomberrys [Final Fantasy]
Slimes/King Slime [Dragon Quest]
Majima [Yakuza]
Rygar [Rygar]
Abobo [Double Dragon]
Pyramid Head [Silent Hill]
Vic Viper [Gradius]
Mike Jones [Star Tropics]
Sophia 3rd [Blaster Master]
Bernard [Maniac Mansion]

Items
Gradius Option - Follows the player duplicating their Neutral Special.
Super Crown - Assets can be reused for Demitri's Midnight Bliss

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

To save time;

Chrom doesn't use any of Marth's actual assets. The rare times he share a move or animation, it's solely because Roy has it. It's a Roy animation he was solely retooled from with the exception of Aether, respectively. That's the only one taken from Ike.

Chrom specifically cannot ever be considered a Marth Echo. A distant cousin of him? Sure. That's fair. But he's factually one of Roy. Even moreso, even with the poorly aged meme, Marth has one Echo and one Clone. Roy has one Echo. Those are actual facts.

Something to also keep in mind is that the logic gets even worse when you can't play favorites to make it work. Ness is deliberately retooled from Mario. Lucas is retooled from Ness. Are we seriously going to make the argument that Lucas borrowed from Mario's assets to be created? No, cause we're not that insane. We know for a fact it doesn't work that way.

They are "distant cousins" at best and only that. Likewise, it also doesn't work when you realize that Lucina nor Roy can be an Echo of each other in the meme itself. This deludes the point behind the joke because it ran purely on nonsense, not reality. In order for it to work, it has look beyond stupid since it's more accurately; Marth created Roy, and Roy created Chrom. Marth created Lucina. Lucina has absolutely nothing to do with Chrom either in any way, meaning it further separates how it works.

In other words? It's a meme. Let it go. It was never meant to be taken seriously anyway. I absolutely adored the meme, but I always recognized(which others don't) it ran on troll logic to make it funny. That's just how some memes are, heh.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Chrom doesn't use any of Marth's actual assets. The rare times he share a move or animation, it's solely because Roy has it.

Exactly. Roy has a bunch of Marth's moves. Chrom has those same moves.

They're all Marths.

They are "distant cousins" at best and only that.

A clone of a clone is still a clone.

I always felt like the term "Echo fighter" was just made to shut people up

"Echoes fighters can't have big changes (Unless they do)"

"Semi-clones can't be echoes (Unless they are)"

Yup.

It was just a way to rebrand clones so people would stop complaining about them taking character slots. And it worked perfectly.

People need to stop pretending there are official rules on what differences Echoes can and can't have.

 

[cashregister9]

If we are speaking purely literal here, Fire Emblem has at least 3 echoes

 

[SpecterFlower]

I'll take Sector Z over Corneria this time. Seriously, give the classic larger stage a chance to shine. And no, they don't operate the same. Corneria is meant to be an evolution of the stage, but its size is way too small and it kind of ruins the atmosphere(okay, it has a very different background focused on daytime instead of being in space, so it literally ruins the atmosphere too).

That, or give Sector Z back, but with the specific guns from Corneria as a fusion. Not unlike Flat Zone X. I also want to see Planet Zebes return instead of Brinstar. Giving those oldest ones more love would be really fun in general. They are redundant with the new stages, but how can they be redundant if the new stages aren't there? It'd be a fun change up to the formula. Plus, we have tons of much smaller/easier to work with stages, so having a few crazy ones is quite great~

imo smash despite creating the genre has some of the worst stage desing in it

half of the stages are mediocre to garbage

and most the rest are nearly identical or almost unplayable.

sometimes simplicity is better but even wackier ones like temple and corneria work becuase they create unique situations the player still has agency of.
while having a unqiue feeling no other stage does.

theres like 10-20 i would want in the next game and the rest can all be left behind.

people praise melee for a lot but imo it was where the series peaked stage desing wise (that or 64)

brawl had soem interesting ideas but was hit or miss.

smash 4 was garbage, the lineup was straight trash, they recovered slightly with the dlc.

smash ultimate has just been funky battlefields, with some travelling stages on the side.

64 was peak, I don’t like mushroom kingdom 64 much but other than that it’s stage design is still some of the best

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

Huh, cut the clones.

Oh, look, we get barely any newcomers within the franchise since it's cut almost in half. Strange.

Oh, wait, every fighting game and even other games add them because it's ten times smarter to reuse assets anyway. Also, notably, removing those clones doesn't get us anything whatsoever in return. All of them combined do not "make for an easy fully unique character".

I get your overall point, but I can't think of any modern fighting game which handles clones to the same extent Smash does. Street Fighter 6 has no clones, and the closest in Tekken 8 is Kuma and Panda, who have become pretty distinct at this point. For the rest of the Evo 2024 lineup, the games have like one or two clones at best who are always distinct enough to have different niches.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I get your overall point, but I can't think of any modern fighting game which handles clones to the same extent Smash does. Street Fighter 6 has no clones, and the closest in Tekken 8 is Kuma and Panda, who have become pretty distinct at this point. For the rest of the Evo 2024 lineup, the games have like one or two clones at best who are always distinct enough to have different niches.

That makes sense. Smash is the only modern game to heavily have clones.

Though don't forget it was actually about heavy Model Reusage. Every single cut I noted was due to taking assets from other fighters to show how much of a terrible idea trying to avoid the concept is. Clones are born from Model Reusage. Not just animations alone. Though to be fair, Smash also is a unique case where Moveset Clone and Model Reusage are actually different things. Most games don't massively reuse the same Models outside of, well, clones. Smash still uses them for non-clones. It kind of changes the whole context.

Likewise, Marvel VS Capcom 1 had quite a few, but so did Marvel VS Capcom 2(my lordy). It's not till 3 they started to tone it down a bit.

The concept of clones is also different in Smash because cuts are not supposed to be all that heavy, and replacing characters was something considered but happened solely once(and I've noted before that the Zelda franchise is kind of a strange one in that everybody moved to their GameCube designs except for Sheik being a special case of nearly cut if they didn't have the right assets possible in some way. Young Link does get replaced, but his assets were reused to create Toon Link, implying it was a necessity).

Then, as noted, asset reuse is downright weird. Nobody would expect that Ness even borrowed from Mario that much other than the model, but it turns out he has a lot of animations originally from him. His playstyle is the actual reason he's not treated as any kind of clone(which I agree with, despite the arbitrary point to it). Clones are also more awkward by having very unique levels of different kinds. With only one actual specifically defined Term(and one Development Term that isn't even used to our knowledge beyond 2 games, and at least confirmed to refer to Luigi retroactively at bare minimum). The other 3 hidden characters in Smash 64 are much more clear that they took from a base, too. So it's not hard to see how we prefer to define it.

(To clarify, Sheik was not in TP, but may either have had concept art from TP's development or they created concept art as if it were for TP, since they asked for art to help rework on Sheik so she fits more with Zelda's design).

Tl;dr overall; To kill the concept of clones, you must remove model reusage. If you remove that, you also remove a huge part of the roster(about 25%) to justify this position properly. You can't really have it both ways. Either you deal with asset reusage, which will always have some clones, or you don't get many characters along with the clones. That's pretty much my point. It was more to show the extremity of what it really means to remove the Model Swap Fighter entirely too. And obviously nobody wants a unique character who... uses a few assets to be gone.

Even if you slightly swing it more, you still gotta remove a lot. If you add back to the list those who weren't related to a clone directly(minor reusage), that's not much either. 7 more, which while isn't that bad, shows how hard you have to nuke the roster to... kill the concept of Model Swap Fighters. The fact we still outright lose Pyra and Mythra says something about why the idea is dumb. Out of 82(not including Echoes, but including them 89), we need to remove 24. Just because they're clones. ...Sounds bad, no? I hope that explains a lot more why it's not a worthwhile idea. It also doesn't help that you have to lose Simon because Richter directly is part of the model reusage and they were made together. Or, as noted, losing Pyra/Mythra because they're built from each other. Nuff said on why the idea just plain bites. I'm all for updating some to further declone them too, but Smash without clones loses a lot. Hard numbers could take a while, though. And it's pretty late at night for me. I hope you get the idea, heh.

 

[BritishGuy54]

All this talk about clones gets me wondering…

Are there any clones you would actually like to see for the next game?

 

[fogbadge]

All this talk about clones gets me wondering…

Are there any clones you would actually like to see for the next game?

gooigi and octolings

 

[Quillion]

All this talk about clones gets me wondering…

Are there any clones you would actually like to see for the next game?

Dixie of Diddy. Just replace Peanut Popgun with Gumball Popgun and replace the jetpack with a variant of Spinning Kong similar to Chrom.

A more "classic" adult Link (OoT or TP, or preferably both) just so he and BotW Link can actually coexist.

(On the note of Wild Saga Link, I find it funny that if he comes back with a TotK-updated moveset, he'll probably be more in line with Melee-Smash 4 Link because he'd have to use Bomb Flowers instead of Remote Bombs)

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

For clones and echoes;

• Metal Mario(of regular Mario. But only if Weight isn't an actual rule we don't know about. Otherwise, it'd be of the heavier Dr. Mario instead. Albeit, that works better anyway. Even if just a clone over an Echo to help justify the bigger attribute differences. Plus, he would still use Fireballs, not Megavitamins. And the Mario Tornado. A new Side B would be nice, though).
• Black Shadow(of Ganondorf, but as a semi-clone using the Brawl/4 Moveset, without any sword stuff. Also, I just compared some various models to be sure I wasn't remembering wrong; Falcon has a different build outright from Black Shadow. The latter cannot possibly be his Echo. It won't work. Ganondorf, especially in Ultimate, which admittedly is not the same exact possible model in every case, but moreso his OOT/Tech Demo build, specifically matches Black Shadow. I haven't compared them in a very long time, but now I remember why I hold this logic. Because it's actually researched and correct).
• Octolings(Echo, clone, or semi-clone of Inklings. Doesn't matter).
• Dixie Kong(I don't care which, but if a semi-clone, I would like to see her have a full-out partner).
• Boshi(of Yoshi. I never minded cross-series clones. I however don't think he would be an Echo due to being from a different franchise. It's arbitrary, but he wouldn't have the Echo label. And unlike Dr. Mario, it's a bit more understandable as to why).
• Hilda(of Zelda. Being Zelda is unlikely to change to another version anyway, she's a very easy Echo or Clone. If her staff is fully used, than a semi-clone makes the most sense).
• ProtoMan(of MegaMan. I spoke of it before, but he is plausible as an Echo if the Shield isn't used that much, but otherwise, a Clone works fine too).
• Shadow(of Sonic. I don't really care about the status. They all work. I'm a fan of him mostly being changed in function, kind of akin to Wolf, if you will).
• Pikmin & Alph(of Pikmin & Olimar. As an Echo only works if it's just Rock Pikmin as new, it wouldn't really represent all the new Pikmin well. So I see them being as a Clone or Semi-Clone at best, with new Pikmin to show off. Likewise, Alph would also return to his model size being a bit different).

Otherwise, special shoutout to Toon Zelda/Toon Sheik as a full semi-clone of both, but combined into one slot with Transformation as a thing. A unique way to return the concept but do it differently and hopefully better.

While I've also had on my mind a version of Pokemon Trainer as an Echo, the big problem is you can't really given anything for Charizard. You can easily switch Ivysaur to Bulbasaur and Squirtle to Wartortle(though even then, there may be too many changes and it couldn't be labeled an Echo. It's borderline if it could work), but the big guy makes no sense to be changed at all. However, as new games come out and stuff like alternate versions, it wouldn't be later on that hard to change him out for something. I know there's stuff like Gigantimax too, but the problem is... all of these are upgrades to Charizard alone. I really hope they continue the trend of Paradox Pokemon, as that could lead to some easy Echo ideas(or at least mods). They're really fun, and at worst, some of the in-universe names are kind of eh, heh.

Crazy, isn't it? Falcon literally is taller and matches up to their horns. They're aren't even near 1:1. Or even barely 1:0.99(or semi-close). They're just that damn different.

These models and builds consist too. When comparing Ganondorf's build and height, they matched super well with Black Shadow. It's also not surprising they chose Ganondorf for Black Shadow's spirit. Besides being extremely alike in many ways(bar the Sword), they're the closest match you'll ever get. That said, Black Shadow could absolutely be a regular clone of Falcon, but just like Ganondorf's overall build is different from Falcon's, so is Black Shadow's. He was never a legitimate Echo choice as it stands. Him getting retooled moves, similar speeds, etc. is all very realistic and easy to go with. Him sharing the same model bodyshape just isn't ever plausible without completely redesigning Black Shadow's bodyshape(which to be fair, is not actually impossible if he reappears in a later F-Zero game. However, his build still persists even as a Trophy in Smash, so his current bodyshape is defined as of now). And no, obviously the fun mods people make do are just that, mods. We've seen the consequence of the attempt, and they often are only cool, but not good. About the only mod using a base that was pretty decent that isn't a 1:1 character in terms of moveset/etc. was a decent Shadow mod out there.

 

[fogbadge]

Dixie of Diddy. Just replace Peanut Popgun with Gumball Popgun and replace the jetpack with a variant of Spinning Kong similar to Chrom.

A more "classic" adult Link (OoT or TP, or preferably both) just so he and BotW Link can actually coexist.

(On the note of Wild Saga Link, I find it funny that if he comes back with a TotK-updated moveset, he'll probably be more in line with Melee-Smash 4 Link because he'd have to use Bomb Flowers instead of Remote Bombs)

you think TP link is classic link?

 

[Quillion]

you think TP link is classic link?

There's a reason why I said "more 'classic' Link" as opposed to "Classic Link".

The point is that as much as I love the Wild Saga of Zelda and think representing BotW Link as a fighter was a good call, changing Link and his moveset like that and having only Young and Toon Link as sort-of alternatives is just as alienating as the prospect of changing Ganondorf's moveset. That's why I want the old adult Link and BotW Link to coexist.

 

[Perkilator]

Suzaku Castle is such a weird stage. You're either smooshed against the blast zone or playing king of the hill on tiny platforms.

It’s such a bad stage…the Super Smash Flash 2 version is sooo much better and I wish that was how the stage actually was in canon Smash Bros.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

To be fair, TP Link also had a similar issue. The Boomerang working the way it did actually did start to cause issues. Same with Ganondorf suddenly being really damn slow and all. Zelda and Sheik were the only two to be relatively the same at the time.

On the other hand, TP Link was much easier to adjust to, and Ganondorf became a fairly popular design due to feeling really fun and satisfying to use. But yeah, OOT and TP Link are still pretty different overall. I get the point behind it, but overall, the only Classic-style Link ultimately would be the Melee/64 designs(which are almost identical bar minor updates). Yes, some flocked to Young Link due to being more classic-style, but that's only because he really is as close to OOT Link as you can get. Besides literally being him. However, his playstyle is still different. This is why I get some want a different Link in general for the earlier adult moveset. That also said, the biggest change to Link is his grab game suddenly being different. It hasn't actually helped that much. The Remote Bombs are still notable too, but to a lesser degree(and actually weakens his viability). We don't know how much he'd take from TOTK, but it's unlikely he'll leave the BOTW stuff completely behind. That would be a lot more alienating, so adding some new skills to his current moveset with some minor updates has a fairly good chance of happening. The game isn't being skipped for content, after all(that said, that doesn't mean it's just going to suddenly get a massive amount of content and changes to characters either. You can count that happening only at one point in Smash history too, and that was also the sole time we got a cut, meaning it's a bit more unique than you'd think).

But anyway, while the idea of having more classic bombs is not impossible, starting to add some unique move commands is starting to miss the point of being, well, Link. He has a variety moveset, but it's always been simple but having unique stuff to allow for neat combos and thoughtful gameplay. It's not complicated as a moveset. Trying to fuse items together starts to get overboard with how he operates. Him using fused weapons in an aesthetic way on the other hand? Or even maybe a few of his attacks use a slightly different property to spice it up? These are a bit more reasonable. Suddenly Bomb Arrows? At that point, he starts to operate a tad too differently. As was spoken before, we don't want to alienate people. He is not alienating with the BOTW updates overall, though a tad awkward to adjust to at best. But overhauling his core style with complicated moves and commands is a completely different story. At that point, why not just give him Bomb Arrows as his new default B? A little spiced up at best. Then he keeps the Remote Bombs for a different variety, but it also evolves his game and makes up for having some new changes. There's bound to be better ways to use the new Fuse Mechanic than essentially turning him into a new character.

Remember; characters haven't gotten any updates that heavily complicates their moveset or completely changes how they function. While some are still big overhauls, the core has always been kept intact. I note Ganondorf as a great example of this going into Brawl, and then back into Ultimate. You still have the clearly same core moveset, but it has some differences that help change things up. Whether it's too much to adjust to for some(which is a fair take), it's quite clearly built off of the same core concept. It's also worth noting that sometimes a conceptual moveset may not be as hard defined as other ones. Clones in general are notable in that they are traditionally similar to their counterpart. This never changes. Meanwhile ones like Pit did get a pretty big overhaul going into 4, but like some, he was more seen as a "this kind of character". So their origins and design philosophies does have some relevance to why some get bigger changes than others. There's kind of no "specific way" to define it cause characters are pretty much all over the place. At most, no clone has deviated that much, despite getting updates. Like, you know Roy is still tied to Marth. And Lucina always will be. Just like Chrom will be tied strictly to Roy, etc. Characters not tied to others base-wise do appear to be given more freedom, basically.

 

[Quillion]

Verde Coeden Scalesworth :

I'm not saying BotW Link should have more "unique" weapons. In fact, I agree that giving any of the Links "unique weapons" would actually suck. Mainly because those "unique items" are mainly very puzzle-oriented things rather than combat-oriented (hello hover boots, spinner, whip, and Cryonis).

But considering the explicit blood relation between OoT and TP Link, I think I can take the Gale Boomerang being fudged to not have its wind effect just so the two are skins of the same character.

And still, complicating a moveset and changing their function aren't the only ways to alienate established players from an old moveset. I still maintain that Bowser's Smash 4 animations are among the biggest disasters in Smash history made for the sake of either viability or canonical references. Leaving no alternative for OoT/TP Link is on that tier too. So is Ganondorf getting sword smashes.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Let me say as someone who is a Ganondorf main; yes, I did have some trouble adjusting to him in Ultimate. The Swords were fine, though less satisfying. They're cool, but his Up Smash in Brawl/4 felt like you were hitting someone and shattering that area of the body, which made it felt highly satisfying.

However, the reason he was harder for me to adjust to? It isn't the Swords. They don't actually feel all that different from his previous Smashes. It's his speed. He suddenly jumped up again and this changes how you work with him. He felt perfect to me when he was a tank. I won't deny this helped him, though. He's the most viable he's ever been since Melee(while he is the bottom tier, that doesn't change the tools made him much better to use. The thing to remember is the difference, even with Ultimate's massive roster, is that viability is surprisingly not as strained as one would think. Everyone is actually viable to begin with, but naturally some will not be able to do as well anyway).

Lastly, what I meant overall with the Link stuff is that you can't really properly incorporate the Zonai devices very well without actually complicating his moveset. Mildly referencing them with having a few of his attacks use a fused weapon with a mild property difference is one way to actually do something with what you got without overly changing it. Trying to actually add a new mechanic will make him much harder to adjust to. And no, I don't consider Ganondorf that actually hard to adjust to in any game(only his speed having quite a change was legitimately alienating. He was always a hard hitter, and many of his moves got quite a few buffs throughout the ages. It works well as a concept and in practice, but it's just lacking ways to handle certain characters he suffers from anyway). I say this in reference to Link to show that while yes, Ganondorf did get some notable change-ups, and it won't work for all, they aren't as big as you're making it out to be. He didn't change that freaking much. Nor did Link, for that matter. His biggest change was a different grab game, which, actually outright forces a different approach philosophy. That's far more changing than most movesets to begin with.

I should also note by having a Bomb Arrow I meant not using some weird mechanic to justify it. It's a great idea for a new B move that would outright improve his game, but also change it up a bit. However, it could also go the other way. Him having a regular arrow might be better. It's something to ultimately playtest to see what works better. I get the Bomb Flower thing and all, but why use that when he has an already new and unique Bomb that stands out. Is it as good as the old? No. But it doesn't necessarily have to be better. If they start changing a little bit of his playstyle(which they did, mind you), changing a few moves to compliment can possibly work better too. It's something you can't be sure of till you see it happen. That said, a fuse mechanic wouldn't be cohesive anyway, as it'd require too many complications for a rather simple character. It's a fun idea, though, for sure.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Are there any clones you would actually like to see for the next game?

Clones? No. Echoes? Absolutely.

10e. Ninten [Ness]
11e. Black Shadow [Captain Falcon]
16e. Impa [Sheik]
27e. Galacta Knight [Meta Knight]
31e. Liquid Snake [Snake]
32e. Black Knight [Ike]
35e. Charizard [Pokemon Trainer]
36e. Dixie Kong [Diddy Kong]
38e. Shadow [Sonic]
46e. Bass [Megaman]
61e. Zack [Cloud]
63e. Jeanne [Bayonetta]
64e. Octolings [Inklings]
82e. Roxas [Sora]

 

[Quillion]

Let me say as someone who is a Ganondorf main; yes, I did have some trouble adjusting to him in Ultimate. The Swords were fine, though less satisfying. They're cool, but his Up Smash in Brawl/4 felt like you were hitting someone and shattering that area of the body, which made it felt highly satisfying.

However, the reason he was harder for me to adjust to? It isn't the Swords. They don't actually feel all that different from his previous Smashes. It's his speed. He suddenly jumped up again and this changes how you work with him. He felt perfect to me when he was a tank. I won't deny this helped him, though. He's the most viable he's ever been since Melee(while he is the bottom tier, that doesn't change the tools made him much better to use. The thing to remember is the difference, even with Ultimate's massive roster, is that viability is surprisingly not as strained as one would think. Everyone is actually viable to begin with, but naturally some will not be able to do as well anyway).

I get you on this one. I felt alienated by Bowser going from his tank incarnation in Melee/Brawl to Smash 4, viability be damned.

That said, it's still mainly the animations I don't like on Bowser at this point (though I can take or leave the Melee/Brawl running animation). I'd also like to see Bowser's running slowed down considerably so that he actually feels like a heavy (no I don't give a **** about how he runs fast in some Mario games), but the animations being reverted (aside from the run) is the top priority.

Lastly, what I meant overall with the Link stuff is that you can't really properly incorporate the Zonai devices very well without actually complicating his moveset. Mildly referencing them with having a few of his attacks use a fused weapon with a mild property difference is one way to actually do something with what you got without overly changing it. Trying to actually add a new mechanic will make him much harder to adjust to. And no, I don't consider Ganondorf that actually hard to adjust to in any game(only his speed having quite a change was legitimately alienating. He was always a hard hitter, and many of his moves got quite a few buffs throughout the ages. It works well as a concept and in practice, but it's just lacking ways to handle certain characters he suffers from anyway).

Where did I say he should have Zonai devices?

Again, I AGREE that Link's moveset should stay the same, because even the Zonai devices suffer the same problem as those "puzzle items" I mentioned (though to a somewhat lesser extent).

I say this in reference to Link to show that while yes, Ganondorf did get some notable change-ups, and it won't work for all, they aren't as big as you're making it out to be.

Your opinion.

It's absolutely too much for me. And even as someone who tries not to main and likes to play with as much characters as I possibly can, I'm not settling for Link losing his hookshot, becoming a righty, getting remote bombs, and having a double arrow mechanic.

I should also note by having a Bomb Arrow I meant not using some weird mechanic to justify it...

I'd say if anything, that could be given to a OoT/TP Link clone just so while TP Link will have to change something to match OoT Link (the Gale Boomerang), OoT Link can gain something in the process. Plus, if BotW Link still needs to have his weird double arrow mechanic, make it a counterpart so that if OoT/TP Link has a bomb held, he can turn it into a bomb arrow by using the Bow.

 

[Garteam]

All of the newcomers in the next Smash game could be Mega Man characters and I'd still be relatively satisfied lmao. X is my favourite gaming character of all time, but the blue bomber has so many amazing choices that I really can't be too upset with who they go with.

On the subject of Mega Man, this mad lad needs to be a two-form boss like Dracula:

I need Reploid Magneto, Sakurai.

 

[Gorgonzales]

Clones? No. Echoes? Absolutely.

Why do you say characters that may as well be alternate skins are better than characters that can actually have differences?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Why do you say characters that may as well be alternate skins are better than characters that can actually have differences?

...To be fair, both can. It's more that Echoes have shown to usually gravitate towards "barely different" at the moment. However, that's just one way they're done(a poor way, imo). It's all over the place, and it's really only three out of seven that does. And one is basically a semi-clone in terms of differences from his counterpart(and overall, he's still pretty similar. Definitely not close enough to say, someone like Wolf. Lucas is a decent comparison to Ken, mayhaps?)

That said, it's always silly to think that Clones shouldn't exist anyway. It's pointless to kill a good playstyle. That, and I've already seen some very misinformed attempts at turning a clone type into an Echo(Pichu, both child Links, for example. Like, among the entire clone cast, only a select few can work, but not in every Smash game. Dr. Mario doesn't really work outside of Melee, as he's too massively changed up to really fit the label. And even with that as borderline, Roy never could be one either outside of, again, Melee. Luigi could up until maybe Melee or Brawl. But now he's entirely different. Besides, you can't just share the bodyshape alone. You have to be able to logically pull it off without being way too OOC. Isabelle is both cases, but it's quite noted she made no sense to use some of those moves. So she'd still have to have changes, and considering everything we know, her chances of hitting the Echo status even if she had the right bodyshape, is very unlikely. She'd have been a more regular clone fairly similar, to say, Pichu or Falco. In that range.

I never got the argument either to try and remove a clearly unique subset like it would help things. We would just get less characters. Besides what I said above, where it's trying to make characters into Echoes that literally impossible within how they work. It's one thing to basically just call them the new Clone(which is true), it's another to treat them as identical in how it works. Of course, ignoring the actual basic bodyshape rule just means it's as best a fun headcanon, which there's nothing wrong with that. As long as one remembers it's not based around anything but how you prefer it.

 

[Gengar84]

All of the newcomers in the next Smash game could be Mega Man characters and I'd still be relatively satisfied lmao. X is my favourite gaming character of all time, but the blue bomber has so many amazing choices that I really can't be too upset with who they go with.

On the subject of Mega Man, this mad lad needs to be a two-form boss like Dracula:

I need Reploid Magneto, Sakurai.

I really like a ton of Mega Man characters myself. I’d totally play a Mega Man exclusive Smash game. So many of the Robot Masters and Mavericks have awesome designs. My favorite of all of them is Pharaoh Man.

I made a custom model for him over Wolf in Brawl based on his appearance in a comic. This image was a variant where I used an Arbok for his snake on his hood but I made a more traditional one for the main.

This was the source image I was trying to capture with the model:

I just really loved this particular design and thought he’d make for an awesome Smash character. I’m not sure if I’d go with Dark Samus over Wolf if I was to do it again in Ultimate. Dark Samus has a lot going for her too.

 

[Megadoomer]

All this talk about clones gets me wondering…

Are there any clones you would actually like to see for the next game?

In terms of veterans, I wouldn't mind if they brought back Lucina. (I find Marth's tipper mechanic frustrating to use, so I like having an alternative where that isn't an issue) If Ryu comes back, I'd like to see Ken return as well.

For newcomers, Octolings seem like no-brainers. I don't know how likely it is, but if Bayonetta returns (which seems pretty likely in my eyes - Sonic seems basically guaranteed unless they cut third party characters entirely, so Sega would almost certainly be involved, and Nintendo funded 3/4 of the Bayonetta franchise), I'd like to see Jeanne as an echo fighter.

 

[kirbstr]

Alright, here's an idea:

Smash gets the full reboot treatment, nothing from 64-Ultimate stays. Every character is completely redone from the ground up with new/improved design philosophies. A new stage list to better represent cool locations from classic games. A full single player mode better than subspace, ect ect all stuff fans have been asking for.

But there's a catch: every series has to have the same number of fighters on the roster., including 3rd parties. Maximum 40 characters. What's the roster looking like?

 

[fogbadge]

I really like a ton of Mega Man characters myself. I’d totally play a Mega Man exclusive Smash game. So many of the Robot Masters and Mavericks have awesome designs. My favorite of all of them is Pharaoh Man.

I made a custom model for him over Wolf in Brawl based on his appearance in a comic. This image was a variant where I used an Arbok for his snake on his hood but I made a more traditional one for the main.

View attachment 388427

This was the source image I was trying to capture with the model:

View attachment 388428

I just really loved this particular design and thought he’d make for an awesome Smash character. I’m not sure if I’d go with Dark Samus over Wolf if I was to do it again in Ultimate. Dark Samus has a lot going for her too.

for a moment there i thought it was that mummy from MVC2

i know he was from darkstalkers save yourself a correction

 

[Gengar84]

for a moment there i thought it was that mummy from MVC2

i know he was from darkstalkers save yourself a correction

Not quite. I see that this Pharaoh Man might have taken a few design elements from Anakaris, like the eye motif, but he’s got a much slimmer frame. They do share some resemblance though.

I’ve just always loved the ancient Egyptian fantasy aesthetic so it would be really cool to see either of these guys. Extremely unlikely, but really cool.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Time for a little history lesson.

Back in the pre-Smash 4 Days, we had something called the SmashBoards Elite Four.

It was our top five most wanted characters. Like the Elite Four from Pokemon, there was a champion too.

Before the game's reveal, the champion was none other than Mewtwo. With the other four being Mega Man, Ridley, King K. Rool and Little Mac. Those five were decided by a number of extensive community polls done by a fantastic community member by the name of Shorts (RIP King).

When the game and Mega Man was revealed, Palutena joined the Elite Four and replaced Mega Man. When Little Mac was revealed, Isaac replaced him. By the time Palutena was revealed, people stop tracking the Elite Four thing so much. The Gematsu leaks were dominating the conversation.

All of the original SmashBoards Elite Four were eventually included in the franchise. But my question is... What do you think today's Elite Four would be? And should we work together to find out today's Elite Four would be?

Also, my memory past Little Mac's reveal was slightly foggy. I know Palutena eventually joined the Elite Four, but my memory is still foggy on Isaac. If I misremembered anything. Let me know.