Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Dinoman96]

I'm sticking to my theory that if we don't get a reveal on Thursday then we're getting another 1st party character. I can only hope they're not underwhelming.

It's been implied by insiders that Byleth was supposed to be revealed at VGAs last year.

 

[Perkilator]

Well I guess more specifically, have elements from Dragalia Lost ever appeared in games on Nintendo home/portable consoles and not just other mobile titles?

Not necessarily, no.

I'm sticking to my theory that if we don't get a reveal on Thursday then we're getting another 1st party character. I can only hope they're not underwhelming.

I don't think big events are exactly correlated with whether we get a 1st party or 3rd party. I mean, we got Terry revealed in a rinky-dink Nintendo Direct.

 

[PeridotGX]

There has hardly ever been Pokemon spin off content in Smash.

You were literally just saying that not being represented is a good thing. That should help Grovyle.

 

[RileyXY1]

I remember someone in this thread saying that the lack of spin-off representation (except Detective Pikachu spirit) was due to a specific TPC decision. Is that true? I've never found info about it.

I also remember there being a Pokemon Snap-related trophy in Melee.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

If there is an exception to the redundancy of the same world being represented, I’d say Splatoon could be it

the only spirits we have from the Octo Expansion (a, if you’ll pardon the pun, “deeper” part of the Splatoon world) are the Octoling Girl & Boy (aka Agent 8) and Octoling Octopus (Agent 8’s Octo form). There’s no spirits for the OE versions of Cap’n Cuttlefish & Off the Hook, or Iso Padre, CQ Cumber,the phone etc. no OE music in the base game either

 

[RileyXY1]

If there is an exception to the redundancy of the same world being represented, I’d say Splatoon could be it

the only spirits we have from the Octo Expansion (a, if you’ll pardon the pun, “deeper” part of the Splatoon world) are the Octoling Girl & Boy (aka Agent 8) and Octoling Octopus (Agent 8’s Octo form). There’s no spirits for the OE versions of Cap’n Cuttlefish & Off the Hook, or Iso Padre, CQ Cumber,the phone etc. no OE music in the base game either

Octoling is more likely as an Echo than a unique fighter.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

"Same worlds" is a relative matter based on the IP anyway. A LoZ franchise that has several continuities/timelines in a sense has more settings to take from than a Metroid might for example.

 

[SharkLord]

If we're talking first-parties I'm still gonna push Isaac. First-party Banjo, I tell ya.

Going more in-depth, there's three reasons: The Ballot, the AT reveal and the negative reactions to it, and the new Golden Sun trademark. Isaac must've scored pretty high on the Smash Ballot; He was pretty darn high in various consolidation polls, including this one, which is apparently the largest of the consolidation polls. Not sure if he was exactly that high, but he must've been done pretty well. Plus, he got the Assist Trophy back, as well as a pretty powerful Spirit (The Spirit means less than the AT, of course, but they're scaled more on popularity than anything; For example, Trevor is a four-start while Julius is a mere two-star). Seeing as there's nothing Golden Sun in the works, it's most likely fan support.

Secondly, the AT. Part of it was everyone thinking it was his time (The GS item, the Rathalos pic, the Grinch leak, and general popularity), but I hear his snowglobing was met with very negative reception. I'd imagine Nintendo would be aware of such backlash (I think I heard somewhere that they actually did, but I'm not sure it's from and I don't want to spread misinfo if it's incorrect or from a dodgy source).

On that note, the eligibility of ATs. I think you know what my stance on ATs are by now. They weren't chosen with a second wave of DLC in mind, Spring Man was used in the ARMS guessing game and prominently featured in Min Min's trailer, Sakurai is fine with multiple Bomberman Miis near-identical to the AT running around, Nintendo most likely wouldn't care about something as arbitrary as that, yadda yadda. The only thing holding ATs back are their own merits, which I'm going over now anyways.

Lastly, the new Golden Sun trademark. I would hope everyone knows about it by now. A new, NON-RENEWAL trademark was filed in 2018, turned down twice, and finally passed this March. If it's just a port or emulation like with the recent Shadow Dragon port, it would use the original trademark and not a new one. If it failed twice before failing, it sounds like Nintendo wouldn't want to give up on it easily. At the very least, it sounds like Nintendo still cares about the series, and not just in the "Renew the IP that I'll never use" kind of way.

...Is he a lock? Of course not. I'm just pretty optimistic for him. Though I'm optimistic about like 80% of everyone I want so it's not like it's saying much Probably didn't need to write that much, but eh. Suppose I was just in a writing mood this morning

 

[SNEKeater]

It was a terrible sequel to a good game. Even fans of the original hated it and how it ruined the character development and relationships of the original

I wasn't going to answer to the TLOU2 discussion because as I said previously it's basically a waste of time, but I couldn't help myself after reading this and I want to clarify, I'm not trying to sound rude against you so I'm sorry if I offend you or something but: people in general should just STOP spreading this. This is just false.

When it comes to this game a lot of people loves to project their opinion or what they've read from a few individuals as the public opinion, even more than usual. Then, how some people would explain this? 2 weeks ago the Golden Joystick Awards happened, which is a relatively well known award with 30+ years of history for anyone who wasn't aware of it's existence. The thing is, those awards are 100% voted by the public. No critics or journalists involved in selecting almost all of the categories and the winners.

And which game won for best game of the year, including a bunch of different awards as well? Last of Us Part II (source: https://www.gamesradar.com/every-winner-at-the-golden-joystick-awards-2020/).
Hey, it seems like a lot of people really enjoyed and liked the game! That's strange, I was told by multiple clickbait videos on Youtube from people who suddenly were interest on this game despite never caring for the original that much and a bunch of random 4chan posters on Twitter that the game absolutely flopped sales wise, that no one liked it, that all the fans of the original game hated the sequel and that of course all the favourable reviews of the game were paid.

A lot of people liked the game. I'm honestly amazed some people aren't able to see that haters always make more buzz. And when I talk about haters, I'm talking about real haters. It's okay to have criticisms with a game and you're free to dislike it. So when I'm saying haters I'm not including those people who had actual or valid criticisms about the game, and I'm just using that word because it's shorter and straight to the point.

I honestly have never seen a "campaign" of hate against a videogame like this one. Like you can't go to any Naughty Dog tweet without finding people complaining like kids about the game, or reading anything about the Game Awards without finding crybabies upset because the game they don't like is getting nominations. Frankly: a lot of people should just move on.
I guess it doesn't help that people always likes to be contrarian against anything that is popular, even if they don't really care about it or aren't really informed about what's going on with the game.

Not to mention, I'm also amazed at how easy is for some people to write off the game as a bad sequel when said game is pretty much objectively better than the original game in most of it's aspects. And I'm not only talking about graphics or whatever, mind you. Makes me wonder if a lot of people have actually played Part II.

 

[DarthEnderX]

While I’m sure people have had those complaints (which are stupid), not everyone who has actual criticism of a game is a homophobe, transphobe, or any sort of -phobe.

Yeah, it annoys me that I can't think Ghostbusters 2016 is bad without people thinking I'm an incel...

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

It's been implied by insiders that Byleth was supposed to be revealed at VGAs last year.

I believe that’s more speculation than anything, I could be wrong but it does make total sense. It’s pretty obvious that the two DLC for Smash and Three Houses were going to get revealed together. That’s easy. What’s the focal point of all this is that one or the other was not ready to be shown at TGA so they delayed both. Pretty simple mindset and I do believe that was the original plan.

 

[PacificFun]

Actually they've done that multiple times, people don't seem to be aware of when they did it to a Winnie the Pooh gravestone in 2002

Regardless, its garbage behavior.

 

[PacificFun]

I found Uncharted 4 boring as hell. So I've never even bothered with TLOU which is even more story driven. I'll stick to modern Tomb Raider (as flawed as it is), t h a n k y o u.

I'll buy it when its like $10.

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

i know this is kinda a hot take but i feel like the pick of jason and sophia, from the blaster master series, might well be a sleeper pick. inti obviously developed zero 1 & 2, have fairly good relations with nintendo and i don't imagine sunsoft objecting. a lesser one compared to others, yeah, but one i think would be possible... and also pretty cool moveset-wise

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Ooh this is certainly an interesting criticism

Spoiler

I've only seen people criticize sandbox games for this, GTA and Watch Dogs being the first examples to pop in my head.

If the story doesn’t acknowledge the gameplay then yeah I think there’s a problem there. Watch Dogs 2 is a good one because Ded_Sec is supposed to be these pacifist hackers but then you can go murder people in the streets with a rocket launcher. If they wanted to go with that story then maybe a stealth-based espionage would’ve suited that story better.

On the flip side, in Doom Eternal you murder millions of Demons and that reflects in the story by the dialogue and reactions of both the demons and the humans. You’re legendary and you’re brutal and it reflects that in the story that calls back your characters legendary violent crusade.

If you’re going to make a good story make the gameplay complement that message. TLoU2 unfortunately has a problem where even parts of the story don’t complement the story causing plot holes and things that just don’t make sense. TLoU2 is literally how The Last Jedi turned out. I can draw a LOT of parallels between the two in both its story and the reaction of the general public.

 

[7NATOR]

2 Things I have to say

1. Splatoon 2 is a 2017 game in the Same vain of ARMS and Xenoblade 2. Splatoon 2 also sold 10 Million copies which destroys the sales of ARMS and Xenoblade 2. I do think it is kind of weird we don't have any Octoling Outfits at the least, and they were able to add music from the Xenoblade 2, but not Splatoon 2

2. I do think How Nintendo reveals the character is more Sophisticated than we might be expecting. Hero, Byleth, Min-Min, and Steve were revealed at times where the games were very Relevant

-DQ11 was Advertised in Hero's Smash Presentation
-The First DLC Pack of Three Houses was announced on the Same day as Byleth's Smash reveal
-The ARMS Game trial was announced right after ARMS was announced to be coming to Smash. Min-Min was revealed in the Same month of ARMs Anniversary (not the same day though)
-Steve was revealed close to Minecon, his Presentation was hours before Minecone, and Sakurai showed up at Minecon as well

 

[Cutie Gwen]

If the story doesn’t acknowledge the gameplay then yeah I think there’s a problem there. Watch Dogs 2 is a good one because Ded_Sec is supposed to be these pacifist hackers but then you can go murder people in the streets with a rocket launcher. If they wanted to go with that story then maybe a stealth-based espionage would’ve suited that story better.

Idk man Aiden Pierce's entire motivation being revenge for the death of his niece only to have it possible for the player to rob her grave feels like a better example to me

 

[Rie Sonomura]

2 Things I have to say

1. Splatoon 2 is a 2017 game in the Same vain of ARMS and Xenoblade 2. Splatoon 2 also sold 10 Million copies which destroys the sales of ARMS and Xenoblade 2. I do think it is kind of weird we don't have any Octoling Outfits at the least, and they were able to add music from the Xenoblade 2, but not Splatoon 2

2. I do think How Nintendo reveals the character is more Sophisticated than we might be expecting. Hero, Byleth, Min-Min, and Steve were revealed at times where the games were very Relevant

-DQ11 was Advertised in Hero's Smash Presentation
-The First DLC Pack of Three Houses was announced on the Same day as Byleth's Smash reveal
-The ARMS Game trial was announced right after ARMS was announced to be coming to Smash. Min-Min was revealed in the Same month of ARMs Anniversary (not the same day though)
-Steve was revealed close to Minecon, his Presentation was hours before Minecone, and Sakurai showed up at Minecon as well

We do have base game Splatoon 2 music - Ebb & Flow, Acid Hues, Now or Never (2 version), Now or Never (2 Splatfest version), Muck Warfare and one Salmon Run song

what we do not have is music from the Octo Expansion

including songs like Nasty Majesty, Fly Octo Fly, #13 shade etc. I need to hear those songs in Smash so badly fjdkndjsoks

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

i know this is kinda a hot take but i feel like the pick of jason and sophia, from the blaster master series, might well be a sleeper pick. inti obviously developed zero 1 & 2, have fairly good relations with nintendo and i don't imagine sunsoft objecting. a lesser one compared to others, yeah, but one i think would be possible... and also pretty cool moveset-wise

If they could figure out a way to effectively incorporate the tank mechanics into their moveset, it would make them one of the most distinct retro fighters in the game.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

i know this is kinda a hot take but i feel like the pick of jason and sophia, from the blaster master series, might well be a sleeper pick. inti obviously developed zero 1 & 2, have fairly good relations with nintendo and i don't imagine sunsoft objecting. a lesser one compared to others, yeah, but one i think would be possible... and also pretty cool moveset-wise

I too was thinking of an IntiCreates character... but instead of Jason it would be Gunvolt

I would kill for some Lumen bops

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Idk man Aiden Pierce's entire motivation being revenge for the death of his niece only to have it possible for the player to rob her grave feels like a better example to me

Oh ****, I never played the first one I didn’t know that lol.

 

[Miles of SmashWiki]

Your regularly-scheduled reminder that not everything is a "promotional pick". Banjo and Terry, for example, certainly weren't.

 

[7NATOR]

I too was thinking of an IntiCreates character... but instead of Jason it would be Gunvolt

I would kill for some Lumen bops

I Haven't played The First 2 Games in awhile, But I Remember that Gunvolt had different type of Bullets that had Different effects with his Tagging mechanic. Do you think he'll take a Page from Min-Min and be able to Change the type of Bullets he shoots on the Fly?

and actually I do wonder how the Tag Mechanic would work in a fighting game. I think that might require a Good bit of balancing translating it to a Fighting game

 

[zeldasmash]

Abby bad
Nuance bad
Realistic and gritty stuff bad, anime good
LGBT bad
Joel good despite him also being a murder
Muscle in girls bad
The story is bad because it didn't go the way I wanted

There I summed it up for you


He's been memeing and handling it like a pro, I'm not sure how else he suppose to do

No. Just...no.

The Last of Us 2 is controversial because the choices it went with to tell the story that is supposed to be a sequel to the first game fall incredibly flat and are nonsensical considering the characters that were established. And they tried so hard to make Abby, by all intents and purposes the main antagonist of the game, sympathetic that it's laughable. There are ways to make a sympathetic antagonist, but they dropped the ball with Abby. Doesn't help that the game rewards her with victory for the same reasons Ellie gets penalized which completely goes against the very story it's trying to tell. The whole story contradicts itself because of this and because of them making the previous characters much weaker and the new characters (except for Jessie) are either unlikable or morons, there isn't much to like about it. Also, Joel being a murderer is a moot point since literally every major character is heavily implied to be one and with how some of the cutscenes that harken to the first one paint him as a good father figure to Ellie despite it all and that Abby's father was far from a saint either, this point is damn near irrelevant. If anything, the game support Joel being a better person then given credit for. The story is hated because the choices it makes for the characters makes no sense considering the decisions those characters make. In a lot of instances, it seems like the story has no idea what it wants to be.

If you want a depressing story done right, look at Spec Ops: The Line. Not only does it succeed in what it tries to do, it detaches itself from the other entries in it's series to tell a self-contained story that is a deconstruction of the FPS genre. This game tries way too hard to tell an artsy revenge story without any satisfying pay off due to the sheer amount of dumb decisions made by the characters in what feels like a slap in the face to the fans of the first game. Also, Neil Druckmann seems to like acting like an unprofessional petulant child when it comes to the criticism surrounding the game and calling them all "haters" instead of learning from the mistakes made. Which makes less sense when you remember that Neil himself said the game will be divisive in an interview before the game came out or was even leaked, so he's contradicting himself with his own goal with the game.

If you like the game, more power to you. But know that there is good reason as to why people (myself included) are very disappointed with this game.

 

[Perkilator]

No. Just...no.

The Last of Us 2 is controversial because the choices it went with to tell the story that is supposed to be a sequel to the first game fall incredibly flat and are nonsensical considering the characters that were established. And they tried so hard to make Abby, by all intents and purposes the main antagonist of the game, sympathetic that it's laughable. There are ways to make a sympathetic antagonist, but they dropped the ball with Abby. Doesn't help that the game rewards her with victory for the same reasons Ellie gets penalized which completely goes against the very story it's trying to tell.

If you want a sympathetic antagonist done right, just look at Insomiac's interpretation of Doc Ock.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

If you want a sympathetic antagonist done right, just look at Insomiac's interpretation of Doc Ock.

God that last scene with Pete and Doc broke my heart man

 

[3BitSaurus]

God that last scene with Pete and Doc broke my heart man

Gotta praise not just the script, but also the voice acting for that one.

 

[TwiceEXE]

People are free to like or dislike TLOU2. But it gets so tiring/frustrating seeing the people who like it create strawmen and reduce the other sides points into jokes. The game has very real flaws and very real good parts. When you simply name call and ignore legitimate discussion you are only hurting yourself. Though I suppose it isn't surprising when the head behind the game (Druckman) engages in the same pathetic behavior.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Your regularly-scheduled reminder that not everything is a "promotional pick". Banjo and Terry, for example, certainly weren't.

I wish Banjo & Kazooie were promotional picks. Then they would come with a game.

 

[SharkLord]

The main thing I remember about TLOU2 is the memes

The choking
The punching
The other thing that I can't really say

Also the fact that the first thing I knew about Abby was an edit to make her look like Senator Armstrong
CORDYCEPS SON
THEY HARDEN IN RESPONSE TO PHYSICAL TRAUMA

 

[JOJONumber691]

Last of Us 2 is a meme lol. If I ever Play Part 2 it will almost entirely be as a joke!

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Though I suppose it isn't surprising when the head behind the game (Druckman) engages in the same pathetic behavior.

Pretty much this. I never played tlou 2, but seeing Neil attitude on Twitter really doesn't make me want to even try it. I know he does it on purpose, but it's so unprofessional and annoying.

 

[Jerry98]

People are free to like or dislike TLOU2. But it gets so tiring/frustrating seeing the people who like it create strawmen and reduce the other sides points into jokes. The game has very real flaws and very real good parts. When you simply name call and ignore legitimate discussion you are only hurting yourself. Though I suppose it isn't surprising when the head behind the game (Druckman) engages in the same pathetic behavior.

And it gets so tiring/frustrating seeing some of the people who didn't like the game doing criticisms that either make no sense or are just poor analysis of the characters actions, behaviours and narrative of the game in general. Not talking about this forum specifically, but the majority of the criticisms I see online are written in a way so that some important details are often omitted or some moments are purposely depicted in a distorted, vague, partial or biased way in order to give other people the impression that who's doing that criticism is right for sure.

 

[BlondeLombax]

What about the crunch time?

 

[chocolatejr9]

What about the crunch time?

Somehow, Naughty Dog got a "Best Company" award despite that...

 

[SharkLord]

Somehow, Naughty Dog got a "Best Company" award despite that...

To be fair it looks like TGA just chooses the GOTY candidates and gives them a nomination for every category that isn't genre-specific

 

[PacificFun]

The gaming industry is a joke.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

1 thing I remember seeing on twitter from when the last of us came out was this tweet

 

[SNEKeater]

What about the crunch time?

That's definitely bad, but if we enter crunch discussions no big company or developer is free of not having done crunch at some point. Not trying to dismissing it, but I'm wondering why people usually only brings said point when it comes to Naughty Dog, when we know other big developers such as Rockstar or CD Projekt Red had "practiced" crunch as well.

And the game being better or worse doesn't have much to do with crunch problems if you ask me, that's a different discussion and said discussion isn't exclusive of ND.

Also, people likes to bring this point a lot, but they should be fair and also mention how the studio or Druckmann have acknowledged this problem and their intention of improving and solving the crunch problem.

People are free to like or dislike TLOU2. But it gets so tiring/frustrating seeing the people who like it create strawmen and reduce the other sides points into jokes. The game has very real flaws and very real good parts. When you simply name call and ignore legitimate discussion you are only hurting yourself. Though I suppose it isn't surprising when the head behind the game (Druckman) engages in the same pathetic behavior.

I agree, but as Jerry98 has said, this happens in both sides, you know?

Maybe I had bad luck, who knows, but most of my experiences about discussing the game with other people online were pretty bad for the most part. Most of the people I've found just simplifies their points in an absurd almost childish way, building their arguments with their raw emotions rather than trying to be more rational.
Luckily there's people who have valid criticisms, like happens with any other game. Here I once discussed with zeldasmash and while our opinions about the game were completely different, we still had a cool and civil talk about the game. Unfortunately that kind of civil debate has been the exception for me and not the usual thing.

About Druckmann, I don't know?
He has been somewhat "provocative" a few times, and while obviously he should be more conscious of his position and try to keep it cool, I mean... I'd say he has been behaving pretty much well for the most part if you consider the harassment that he (or other people involved in the game) has suffered since the game leaked. And it's still happening.

Not trying to say he's perfect, but he isn't a robot and we're all humans, and I think it is at least understandable to explode at some point when you're receiving complains, insults, threats and more basically each day. I for sure would have exploded at some point, even if I know that I should try to not fall into that.

Maybe it's a hot take? but the kind of people who crosses that line completely deserves to be called out. And as far as I know, he hasn't denied any criticism or has said that "TLOU2 is a perfect game and nobody can't argue with that". I don't think he has a problem with people who just disliked the game or folks with valid counterpoints. In the end, there's always who will dislike a videogame, no matter which one.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Just remember Nintendo shutdown the Joycon thing due to being forced to, not cause "they wanted to" in itself. We have no clue what their actual opinion of it is. They aren't going to really say anything. The tweet speaks for itself "our trademark was infringed upon, and we've ordered a cease & desist" is a pretty clear and respectful statement.

It was a straight-out trademark infringement of Joycon. If they didn't, they'd lose the trademark IP in itself by law. That means anybody could pick it up instead of them, meaning they couldn't manufacture Joycons anymore without paying somebody else royalties for the product they outright trademarked and created in the first place. That's just plain awful. Imagine yourself having to pay others just to use your own work in the first place. Pretty dumb, isn't it?

It was a law-based requirement. It's not even copyright-related(which I'm pretty sure they don't have to take action in fear of losing it like trademark, but it's been a complicated thing) either, which to be fair, they'd have the rights backing them up in that way too if they wanted to deal with it. Not that they would have to, if that was the actual situation.

The problem was the law and how it works. Which honestly, can be seen as pretty dumb. Copyright and Trademark laws are rather annoying at times at how they work.

I got no opinion on TLOU2, mind you.

As for a VGA reveal, doesn't seem too likely. And yeah, the New Banner(on the website, not the fighters page itself) was down for quite a while before Steve appeared. It still can go down soon, but that's the only way we'd be getting someone. In the case of Byleth being a VGA reveal, I can easily believe that was intended. There could be many reasons why it didn't happen. Backlash, the character and trailer wasn't finished enough, Nintendo having more ideal plans, for a few examples.