Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

We're such a small speck compared to the entirety of Smash's full installed base that it will always be impossible to tell what is definitively the "most popular" choice due to silent majority.

On that note, Nintendo is likely in a similar place we are, unless they have analytics for what other games smash players own. The Smash player base is huge compared to other fighting games, and since it's a crossover in nature the field of choices is almost endless. Finding any consistent and accurate perspective on what people want would be incredibly difficult compared to something like Guilty Gear. It would be far easier to pick characters on basically any other metric. Things like legacy, modern relevence, business relations, etc. are more likely to matter in theory just out of practicality.

I do think we could get a fan favorite or two, but that may be a character that has had big support for a long time or just a coincidence or an executive's hunch.

 

[SKX31]

Not only that but it's not like swordfighters are like 50% of the roster, there are more characters fighting with punches and kicks than swords, so something seems fishy here if you ask me because I don't recall people complaining about that. Hey, not saying complaining about an archetype isn't valid, but to me it seems pretty clear that a good amount of the disdain and the hate for swordfighters came more for the anime and/or the JRPG aspect.
It's not like there's a conspiration against both things, I mean, anime and JRPGs are popular, but we also know that both things have haters. It isn't difficult to go anywhere in the internet and see people making fun of anything anime or in the context of videogames, people calling JRPGs boring, outdated and only for weebs.

It didn't help that Counter is such an oft-used move amongst the FE cast, despite it not properly emulating classic FE's combat and Counter becoming a thing in FE in 2005 - making FE's Counter a Smash reference. Oh and Counter-attacks being very much niché... until they got successively buffed in Smash 4. To the point that 's did this in certain situations:

While Corrin's and Bayo's counters were toned down (Bayo's original Witch Time protected against grabs and didn't scale at all with attacks, meaning that Witch Time punished jabs as hard as Falcon Punch) and Ultimate brought the Counters more in line, Counters have become too tied with FE and probably helped reinforce the "anime swordsman" stereotype. To reinforce a point MockRock made in the linked video, it's telling that neither Robin nor Byleth use Counters at all.

Banjo got in almost entirely because of fan demand. I'm certain Microsoft wouldn't have pushed for Banjo if they thought Smash fans were uninterested in the character.

Actually, I'm not even sure Microsoft would be involved with Ultimate had Banjo not been added.

I'm not completely sure if B-K got in almost entirely because of fan demand. Sure, Spencer and co. noticed that there was, but didn't B-K's Smash fanbase take off again largely because Spencer vocally supported the idea?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Well let's say of those that play Smash the 95% at least ACKNOWLEDGES it's a bad, bad choice. I've lost count how many ****ing FE characters, come on.

No Byleth is a great choice. Fire Emblem Three Houses is also a great game, amazing even. Byleth deserved his inclusion. Byleth also gave people hope for additional first party characters. You are also not the spokesman for 95% of the Smash players worldwide.

I like Byleth, and love their inclusion in Smash.

Come at me.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Goku is in the poll. The poll is automatically invalid.

Voters clearly taking cues from this.

 

[Cosmic77]

I'm not completely sure if B-K got in almost entirely because of fan demand. Sure, Spencer and co. noticed that there was, but didn't B-K's Smash fanbase take off again largely because Spencer vocally supported the idea?

Didn't Spencer say that in response to Smash fans supporting Banjo? Yes, Banjo took off shortly after that comment, but how many characters have seen a spike in popularity after someone said something that made them seem more likely?

I'm willing to flat-out say that Banjo wouldn't have gotten in Smash without his fan demand. Obviously he wasn't promoting anything. He clearly didn't get in because of relevancy; his franchise has been dormant for a long time. His franchise is rather small in all honesty, so I don't think it was his legacy in gaming. I guess you could argue that his moveset potential might've helped, but if Nintendo chose the DLC instead of Sakurai, why would they care about that?

Banjo felt like a fanservice character who got in because people wanted him, and after seeing Sakurai's comments on Banjo's popularity and the ease of working with Microsoft, I can't think of any other reason than that.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

In another round of WCF woefully misinterprets current discourse, three out of the five Fighter Pass 1 characters were from JRPGs. That’s not ignorance, that’s the stats. While they’re obviously unique in the grand scale of things and all bring unique mechanics to the table and sepereately all deserved their inclusion, including Byleth, I don’t think it‘s foul to speak out when you want more visually distinct characters, or want other types of genres represented.
JRPG fans got their share, and I think it’s fair to not want more of that if you’re not a fan of it, regardless of the differences within the category.

 

[SharkLord]

Didn't Spencer say that in response to Smash fans supporting Banjo? Yes, Banjo took off shortly after that comment, but how many characters have seen a spike in popularity after someone said something that made them seem more likely?

I'm willing to flat-out say that Banjo wouldn't have gotten in Smash without his fan demand. Obviously he wasn't promoting anything. He clearly didn't get in because of relevancy; his franchise has been dormant for a long time. His franchise is rather small in all honesty, so I don't think it was his legacy in gaming. I guess you could argue that his moveset potential might've helped, but if Nintendo chose the DLC instead of Sakurai, why would they care about that?

Banjo felt like a fanservice character who got in because people wanted him, and after seeing Sakurai's comments on Banjo's popularity and the ease of working with Microsoft, I can't think of any other reason than that.

Basically, some certain points kept Banjo popular, and Microsoft and Nintendo had suddenly become all buddy-buddy with each other. I believe it went something like this:

1. Banjo-Kazooie was released as a Nintendo 64 exclusive, partially owned by Nintendo, so Banjo-Kazooie became associated with Nintendo.
2. Microsoft bought out half or Rare, forcing Nintendo to sell their half as well. This prevented Banjo and Kazooie from being added to Smash.
3. Banjo's existing popularity, coupled with his absence from the roster, led him to becoming one of the most hotly-requested candidates.
4. The Ballot came around and his fans cast their votes, showing Nintendo that yes, he is popular. I believe Phil Spencer saying he wanted BK in Smash helped too.
5. Nintendo and Microsoft became pals, giving Banjo a clear path to Smash

 

[osby]

In another round of WCF woefully misinterprets current discourse, three out of the five Fighter Pass 1 characters were swordsmen from JRPGs. That’s not ignorance, that’s the stats.

...Joker and Byleth aren't swordsmen though. Claiming that a knife and bow/axe/spear/whip sword are the same thing with a regular sword is ignorance.

 

[J. Bond]

Lol maybe I've been living in a bubble

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Curious question? Had Banjo not been a heavily requested character would there even be a friendly relationship between Nintendo and Microsoft?

Or was there other reasons behind it?

Voters clearly taking cues from this.

Aw man I remember coming across that cover at my local Walmart when younger
Memories.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

...Joker and Byleth aren't swordsmen though. If you claim that a knife and bow/axe/spear/whip sword are the same weapons with what Hero uses, yes, that is ignorance.

You’re right, I’ve edited my statement.

 

[SharkLord]

In another round of WCF woefully misinterprets current discourse, three out of the five Fighter Pass 1 characters were swordsmen from JRPGs. That’s not ignorance, that’s the stats. While they’re obviously unique in the grand scale of things and all bring unique mechanics to the table and sepereately all deserved their inclusion, including Byleth, I don’t think it‘s foul to speak out when you want more visually distinct characters, or want other types of genres represented.
JRPG fans got their share, and I think it’s fair to not want more of that if you’re not a fan of it, regardless of the differences within the category.

I think the problem lies in the guy going out of his way to ignore any impact the Tales of series might have had, and dismissing him as just a "literal anime swordfighter." Opinion is one thing, but Tales has a fair bit of influence and popularity that was being passed over, and Lloyd wouldn't fight like the swordfighters we already have.

 

[Dinoman96]

Curious question? Had Banjo not been a heavily requested character would there even be a friendly relationship between Nintendo and Microsoft?

Or was there other reasons behind it?

Craig Duncan said it was Minecraft that created Nintendo and Microsoft's relationship.

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2020-01-29-who-saved-rare

"Minecraft had paved the way for that relationship between Nintendo and Microsoft," Duncan recalls. "I met with Nintendo at the E3 before we announced it. And then we connected our teams, because we thought it seemed like a great opportunity.

 

[Lionfranky]

Curious question? Had Banjo not been a heavily requested character would there even be a friendly relationship between Nintendo and Microsoft?

Or was there other reasons behind it?

Aw man I remember coming across that cover at my local Walmart when younger
Memories.

Rare said that it was Minecraft that bridged gap between Microsoft and Nintendo. But, Microsoft published few games on Nintendo system before Minecraft.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Heh we can thank Minecraft then for having made Banjo a reality.

 

[Dinoman96]

Steve supporters thought that Minecraft being on Nintendo would lead to Steve being in Smash, but instead it led to Banjo

Steve walked so Banjo could talon trot

 

[chocolatejr9]

Lol maybe I've been living in a bubble

Lots of people do. Just ask Geno fans.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Steve supporters thought that Minecraft being on Nintendo would lead to Steve being in Smash, but instead it led to Banjo

Steve walked so Banjo could talon trot

Doesn't mean Steve can still make it though granted dmfrom what it seems if we will get another Microsoft rep it might Mastet Chief perhaps coming with a Steve Mii Sworfighter.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I think the problem lies in the guy going out of his way to ignore any impact the Tales of series might have had, and dismissing him as just a "literal anime swordfighter." Opinion is one thing, but Tales has a fair bit of influence and popularity that was being passed over, and Lloyd wouldn't fight like the swordfighters we already have.

I skipped the discourse before the post I read so I didn’t know this was about Tales, but I think my point still applies that it’s fair to want a break on JRPG protagonists. I also don’t think dual-wielding is a guarantee for a unique moveset: Corrin’s Dragon’s Vein is mostly aesthetic in an otherwise Marth-like moveset skeleton, and Hero straight-up lends animations from Link. Of course they’re still unique, but there’s potential for sharing that simply isn’t there with another pick like Min Min. Admittedly, I’ve never played Tales so I don’t know what Lloyd has in his arsenal besides dual wielding and probably some JRPG mechanics

 

[OrpheusTelos]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Idk about you guys, but i'm starting to think hank hill is a lock now. why else would the nintendo europe account tweet this out except to hint at a king of the hill rep?

 

[zeldasmash]

I gotta disagree. Even though Steve is more controversial than Master Chief, I feel like Minecraft is the franchise that's made a bigger impact overall. There's all sorts of merch for it, and a lot of people who aren't in to gaming seem to recognize the franchise.

Now if you're trying to say more people would buy a console for Halo than they would for Minecraft, then you might be right. Either way, Minecraft has a much larger audience and has built itself up to be a fairly iconic name in gaming.

Not denying Minecraft is huge. It is. Heck, it is bigger then Halo as a franchise. I just think that to the gaming industry as a whole, I think Halo is more important. Shaping two entire generations of gaming with it's titles (6th gen and 7th gen), all of which brought new things to the industry and even other mediums. Halo was the bedrock of Machinima and there's even an entire web-show based on it. Then there's it being the kickstarter for Xbox Live, which shaped what is known as modern online gaming.

I do acknowledge that I do have bias toward Halo and against Minecraft because I just don't like the game. If it seems like I'm downplaying the game, I apologize.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

F-Zero hasn’t gotten anymore reps because it’s a racing game. The one character we did get in Smash has a completely unique moveset. F-Zero is awesome but I’d rather get characters that wouldn’t basically be OCs.

Not to mention they based Captain Falon's moveset on the original concept that was Dragon Fighters. To say the least he was darn lucky.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Lol maybe I've been living in a bubble

Welcome to Smashboards. You either want FE to massively outnumber everything or just have only one rep, there is no in-between.

 

[Perkilator]

In another round of WCF woefully misinterprets current discourse, three out of the five Fighter Pass 1 characters were from JRPGs. That’s not ignorance, that’s the stats. While they’re obviously unique in the grand scale of things and all bring unique mechanics to the table and sepereately all deserved their inclusion, including Byleth, I don’t think it‘s foul to speak out when you want more visually distinct characters, or want other types of genres represented.
JRPG fans got their share, and I think it’s fair to not want more of that if you’re not a fan of it, regardless of the differences within the category.

Yet another reason why a Resident Evil character should've been CP5 instead of Byleth (and I like the latter just fine).

...Although I will concur with osby that Joker and Byleth aren't necessarily swordsman, even if the latter does kinda use a sword.

 

[Digital Hazard]

...Joker and Byleth aren't swordsmen though. Claiming that a knife and bow/axe/spear/whip sword are the same thing with a regular sword is ignorance.

If you want to be technical, the dagger attacks count as sword attacks-in game and get a boost by spirits that affect sword attacks.

 

[SharkLord]

If you want to be technical, the dagger attacks count as sword attacks-in game and get a boost by spirits that affect sword attacks.

And so does Kazooie, for that matter. Obviously, this means that Phantom Thief and Bird and Bear are the highest FE sword classes there are.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Yet another reason why a Resident Evil character should've been CP5 instead of Byleth (and I like the latter just fine).

...Although I will concur with osby that Joker and Byleth aren't necessarily swordsman, even if the latter does kinda use a sword.

Joker literally isn't a swordsman, he wields a dagger which is closer to a knife than a sword

 

[Mushroomguy12]

And so does Kazooie, for that matter. Obviously, this means that Phantom Thief and Bird and Bear are the highest FE sword classes there are.

Poor, poor Kazooie.......

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[PLANTMAN]

I feel Steve is more likely than Master Chief to be honest.

I think if anything we'll get Steve as a fighter, Master Chief as a Mii Gunner.

I feel like none are likely for this pass

 

[Cosmic77]

I don't really care that much about which genre the character comes from, but I can understand why someone would feel like the first pass wasn't very diverse.

Compare the base roster with the first pass.




For base, we have a third-person shooter, two action-adventures (Metroidvania), a platformer, a life-simulation, and a RPG.
Meanwhile, the first pass has two RPGs, a platformer, a fighting, and a strategy that could arguably be counted as a third RPG.

Personally, I care a lot more about the variety in designs than I do genres, but designs are still something I can use to relate to the people who want other genres to be repped. Both are small details that don't really matter that much in the grand scheme of things, but it would make the pass better for those who care.

 

[Guynamednelson]

(Metroidvania)

The "vania" in "Metroidvania" doesn't come from Simon's games.

 

[Digital Hazard]

I don't really care that much about which genre the character comes from, but I can understand why someone would feel like the first pass wasn't very diverse.

Compare the base roster with the first pass.




For base, we have a third-person shooter, two action-adventures (Metroidvania), a platformer, a life-simulation, and a RPG.
Meanwhile, the first pass has two RPGs, a platformer, a fighting, and a strategy that could arguably be counted as a third RPG.

Personally, I care a lot more about the variety in designs than I do genres, but designs are still something I can use to relate to the people who want other genres to be repped. Both are small details that don't really matter that much in the grand scheme of things, but it would make the pass better for those who care.

Wasn't Symphony of the Night the Castlevania that strictly went towards that route, while Rondo of Blood and the first ones are more standard action platformers? Also FE is definitely a RPG.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

The "vania" in "Metroidvania" doesn't come from Simon's games.

I mean, it comes from Symphony of the Night, which starred Richter and Richter is in Smash.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Idk about you guys, but i'm starting to think hank hill is a lock now. why else would the nintendo europe account tweet this out except to hint at a king of the hill rep?

Next Mario game will have him saying he'll kick Bowser's ass when he comes in to save Peach. Just watch.

 

[Cosmic77]

The "vania" in "Metroidvania" doesn't come from Simon's games.

Wasn't Symphony of the Night the Castlevania that strictly went towards that route, while Rondo of Blood and the first ones are more standard action platformers? Also FE is definitely a RPG.

I went with Richter's game to make it seem like I wasn't purposely trying to make the list more diverse.

Simon's game is action/platformer, which would make it unique on a technicality.

 

[Schnee117]

I mean, it comes from Symphony of the Night, which starred Richter and Richter is in Smash.

It's where Simon and Richter get several of their moves from too

 

[chocolatejr9]

Sorry for trolling earlier. I didn't intend for it to come off that way.

Anyway, here's something that's been on my mind. If for whatever reason, they decide to bring back the Smash Ballot, how do you think they will handle it? Do you guys think it'll be largely the same, or do you think the rules will be a bit more strict?

 

[ZephyrZ]

In another round of WCF woefully misinterprets current discourse, three out of the five Fighter Pass 1 characters were from JRPGs. That’s not ignorance, that’s the stats. While they’re obviously unique in the grand scale of things and all bring unique mechanics to the table and sepereately all deserved their inclusion, including Byleth, I don’t think it‘s foul to speak out when you want more visually distinct characters, or want other types of genres represented.
JRPG fans got their share, and I think it’s fair to not want more of that if you’re not a fan of it, regardless of the differences within the category.

Is Joker, a modern high school thief clad in black and wielding a knife and a gun, not visually distinct from the slightly cartoonish fantasy character Hero?

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Is Joker, a modern high school thief clad in black and wielding a knife and a gun, not visually distinct from the slightly cartoonish fantasy character Hero?

I wasn’t comparing those two though, but comparing them to possible future RPG protagonists in Pass 2.

 

[Digital Hazard]

Is Joker, a modern high school thief clad in black and wielding a knife and a gun, not visually distinct from the slightly cartoonish fantasy character Hero?

"No, but you see, he's anime and I think anime is a sole universal style, so he's gonna look the same as every anime-like character in the roster"