New Mechanic: The Rage Effect

[Black Mantis]

Apparently I do...according to you and you are picking one thing from that whole post to refute and come up with that blanket statement? Really?

Firstly I heard it wasn't in or at least in an effective form. If it is then I'll take that statement back.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i3VqY6-0jk

Yes he did "dash dance" but if you think that does anything great you are mistaken I was referring to it being the viable and important spacing tool it used to be in 64 and Melee which it isn't. I guess I should have clarified. Hey did you know you can waveland in this game? Its "technically" in the game.

You mentioned no l canceling. Most aerials don't have any lag (brawl pro NAKAT and a japanese leaker both said this is not a big deal). There's pivot tilting which can be used offensively. Dashes can be canceled with shield meaning dashes are safe. Stutter stepping is back. Crouch canceling has returned. Many defensive options have been nerfed from previous smash games such as ledge abuse/planking (a problem that even melee suffered from) and gliding being gone so you can't air stall. Airdodging at the peak of your double jump or anywhere high on the stage will NOT give you landing lag.There are methods to have no lag after you attack or airdodge.

http://www.meleeitonme.com/nakats-smash-4-demo-impressions/

 

[Chiroz]

Does Falcon Punch kill at 50% without Rage?

Shofu seems to have VIed incorrectly in that video from what I can tell, he seems to have VIed left, which as we now know probably helped the Falcon Punch kill him (I can't tell much about VI yet though so I might be wrong on this).

One thing is for sure, if Falco Punch doesn't kill Fox at 58% without rage, it does kill him at 70-75% even if Captain Falcon was at 0%. The actual effect of Rage is not that big.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Does Falcon Punch kill at 58% without Rage?

Just checked in training mode, and yes it does, and that's without the 1.05 staleness multiplier.

so

 

[Werner Herzog]

One could argue there is such as thing as too much complexity, or that there is a point where blindly adding learning curves just takes away from the depth instead of adding to it. I agree, there is a fine line at which that happens, but this mechanic in no way crosses that line. It's barely noticeable and it's actually quite easy to learn.

Thanks - and yes, I agree with this as well. We are not anywhere close to the point where the complexity has become too steep, and I maintain that both this and vectoring are rather intuitive, to the point where people playing smash for the first time might actually adjust to these additions without even thinking about it or realizing it.

Easy to learn, difficult to master - that's the ideal imo, and so far nothing we've learned has hurt my optimism about this game delivering on it for a long time coming.

 

[kupo15]

You mentioned no l canceling. Most aerials don't have any lag (brawl pro NAKAT and a japanese leaker both said this is not a big deal). There's pivot tilting which can be used offensively. Dashes can be canceled with shield meaning dashes are safe. Stutter stepping is back. Crouch canceling has returned. Many defensive options have been nerfed from previous smash games such as ledge abuse/planking (a problem that even melee suffered from) and gliding being gone so you can't air stall. Airdodging at the peak of your double jump or anywhere high on the stage will NOT give you landing lag.There are methods to have no lag after you attack or airdodge.

http://www.meleeitonme.com/nakats-smash-4-demo-impressions/

Pivot tilting was always in the game. I forget if it was in Brawl but if it wasn't then its good its back.
Dashes could always be canceled with shield
Stutter stepping as in spinning around and around?
Crouch canceling is a defensive option so re-adding goes with what I was saying about the multitude of new defensive options added without adding new offense options or movement.
Ledge stuff being nerfed doesn't tie into the point I was making which was about combos
And what special new methods are there to remove lag from air dodges or attacks? If you are talking about doing it high enough that they end before you hit the ground that has been around since the beginning of the game or when they were first introduced.

The airdodging lag is a welcomed change from Brawl so I'll give you that. No gliding is also good.

 

[Caryslan]

Here's one simple thing I don't get, people are acting like the Rage Mechanic somehow breaks shields, ignores spot dodges and rolls, and allows the players who have Rage triggered to hit their opponent 100% of the time. if you see an opponent at a high percentage, don't make foolish mistakes. In fact, the other player can take advantage of this. Players in a Rage status might be desperate to get that KO before they lost their stock, especially if they are already down in a match. Even in a close game that is down to the last stock, the player with less damage can still control the flow of the match if they don't make mistakes that leave them open.


It adds an element of strategy to a match that was not there previously, and allows for even more mindgames.

Think about this, if this mechanic is so broken then Lucario should have been the best character in Brawl, since the aura does the same thing. Lucario's entire gameplay is based around the concept of taking damage in order to become more powerful.

As some others have said, this seems to be a mechanic that favours people who know then ins and outs of the game and can take advantage of that accordingly. On paper, it sounds like a broken mechanic that was thrown in to make casual players feel better and give them a chance. But comeback mechanics like this are not uncommon in fighting games.

Fatal Fury 2 gave players a super attack once they reached 25% of their health.

An even bigger one is X-Factor. It sounds like something that appeals to casuals on paper. A comeback mechanic that allows somebody to make a comeback and even win a match even if their opponent still has all three of their teammates. Expect, if your opponent is that good, the boost from X-Factor means nothing. A player who is being dominated is not going to suddenly win unless their opponent becomes careless. If they managed to take down two of your characters and left you with one, then it stands to reason they can control the flow of the match. In fact, they might take advantage since players will want to act during that power boost.

Kinda sounds like the same thing here, a power boost when a player enters a critical state. But just like X-Factor that seems to favour skilled players, this sounds like a mechanic that caters to skilled players. It can also be exploited by the defending player, since their opponent might become desperate for a KO while they are in the rage state. If anything, it might offset the biggest issue people had with Brawl. That it was too defensive and campy.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

Man this thread got dumb quick. Why won't you guys just listen to what Aerodrome is saying? The difference in KB between 0-70% is negligible. It only really becomes noticeable when you hit 150%, and even then the difference isn't super-significant. This mechanic is no-where near the level of something like X-Factor or the Ultra Meter; it's not even comparable.

 

[Espy Rose]

People need to do two things in this thread:

1) Listen to Aerodrome
2) Read Yume's post. Seriously, that man has made the second most intelligent post in this thread.

Praxis/kupo/etc, no one should honestly care about your opinion on whether or not this mechanic is bad. Some do, but they really shouldn't. What you say isn't going to magically remove this mechanic from the game, nor is it going to compromise the integrity of the inner workings of the system. It's here, and it's not going anywhere.

I'd far rather read about the discovery and its little intricate details over all of the bickering the two of you (Praxis/Kupo) have caused in here.Let Aero/AA/etc. do their sexy magic on this Rage Effect, and leave it be.

Go to Reddit or make another thread if you still want to bicker. This is not the place.

 

[Shaya]

Constructive opinions on something are fine/fair, but not everything should be "doomsday" responses. But there isn't really a logical response to "we don't know how this will impact things overall" so speculating in that fashion just needs to be... careful.

 

[ToadsterOven]

Seriously, I’m tired of this.

I read the competitive subforum in order to learn, just like hundreds of lurkers. Smashboards is a wonderful source of information, where pretty much all the new mechanics and techniques are discovered and posted first. I can’t be thankful enough to all these people who, through testing and analyzing data, find out new mechanics. They’re really those who make the metagame advance.

Sadly, not everybody is willing to make meaningful contributions. Every time there is a relevant discovery, people complain from the very first page of the post, instead of exploring the possibilities and implications of the finding. Claiming how the changes are highly detrimental to the metagame the same day they’re discovered, barely with any tournament data, is by no means a positive contribution. Explaining how the game should be to fit your personal tastes isn’t even relevant.

This kind of pointless discussion goes on in every page of the thread, making harder to find useful data or analysis (for example, any Aerodrome post in this thread) and giviing a really bad impression to people entering the competitive scene. It’s obstructing the development of the metagame, rather than helping. And I’m pretty sure that everybody here wants to see how competitive Smash 4 finally turns out.


tl;dr: Finding new mechanics and exploring their applications to create optimal strategies will develop the metagame. Your subjective opinion won’t.

Agreed. I don't want to be mean to anyone, but I'm starting to get the feeling that this subforum would function better if only mods/staff and chosen members with a 3DS/Wii U backroom tag on their profile were allowed to access. As far as I know, a backroom was going to be eventually be made for 4. Why not now? Most of you have made some solid contributions in this thread, but sadly the average user wouldn't know it based on how much petty bickering as well as general ignorance unfortunately pollutes it all thanks to a few bad eggs. Again, I'm not being mean to anyone in particular nor am I trying, but let's just leave it at that.

On topic, I did get the demo today and *gasp* combos actually are possible! I got into the 50's-60's at most before switching gears and trying to get easy offstage kills as Mario for example. (which is oh so satisfying btw!) Already, I'm thinking up potential tricks for each of the five demo characters to help them reach their full offstage potential and I can't wait until I have the full game. That's when the real battle will start!

 

[Chiroz]

Agreed. I don't want to be mean to anyone, but I'm starting to get the feeling that this subforum would function better if only mods/staff and chosen members with a 3DS/Wii U backroom tag on their profile were allowed to access. As far as I know, a backroom was going to be eventually be made for 4. Why not now? Most of you have made some solid contributions in this thread, but sadly the average user wouldn't know it based on how much petty bickering as well as general ignorance unfortunately pollutes it all thanks to a few bad eggs. Again, I'm not being mean to anyone in particular nor am I trying, but let's just leave it at that.

On topic, I did get the demo today and *gasp* combos actually are possible! I got into the 50's-60's at most before switching gears and trying to get easy offstage kills as Mario for example. (which is oh so satisfying btw!) Already, I'm thinking up potential tricks for each of the five demo characters to help them reach their full offstage potential and I can't wait until I have the full game. That's when the real battle will start!

I agree with this sentiment. Just make it viewable to everyone, but take away posting rights from people little by little until there is only a select group of people who want to help the game evolve.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Okay, let's use an example to help clear things up.

Let's say that you are playing competitive Pokemon. And you are trying to decide a move that would help your Pokemon's sweeping potential. You decide to pick either Power-Up Punch, or Swords Dance. One causes damage and raises your Attack stat by 1, while Swords Dance doesn't cause damage but raises your Attack stat by 2. Which one is ultimately better?

9 times out of 10, unless you are Mega Kangaskhan or have an Assault Vest or something, Swords Dance is going to be better. The damage that Power-Up Punch deals is very minimal (40 base damage), and it only gives you a 50% increase in attack. While Swords Dance gives you a 100% increase in attack, meaning that if you knock out your opponent's current Pokemon, your Swords Dance Pokemon is much more prepared for their next Pokemon.

Power-Up Punch is equivalent to Smash 4's rage mechanic, except the rage mechanic in Smash 4 is probably even less noticeable overall. (Also the rage mechanic doesn't directly deal damage, just a very small boost)

Sword's Dance would be akin to something like using Baroque in Tatsunoko vs Capcom, which greatly increases your attack (depending on red life) and can easily turn a match around. Or for people who haven't played TvC: Street Fighter 4's Ultras could vaguely be comparable.

Replace "Pokemon" with Smash 4 Stocks, and there you go.


...also X-Factor would be akin to using Shell Smash on a Pokemon with a White Herb. Except that you don't have to have a White Herb to negate the defense loses. And instead of +2 to attack, it gives you +6 to attack as if you used Belly Drum, minus the -50% HP reduction it normally gives.

 

[DownWitDaWaveDash]

This is a forum, there should be discussion on how people feel about a mechanic, how about you go complain about other peoples feelings somewhere else. We should have a right to voice our opinions , and most of the opinions are just that , Opinions.

It doesn't matter if the effect is negligible if theres like 0.95% chance that this will screw me over, no I do not want plz remove thank

Thats my opinion.


SOMEHOW, this post ^ was treated as trolling, thats cute, great mods we have here

 

[TTTTTsd]

Did some brainstorming today and came to an interesting conclusion about this mechanic.

It actually benefits combos against heavier characters. For instance, Mario's D-throw has low KB and is probably a bad idea at lower %s when you're fresh against a heavy character or a fast faller. But if you're at 100+% and they come in on a fresh stock, if you D-Throw them, the chance of increased KB and a more comboable throw(in theory) is presented.

Just some brainstorming.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Did more testing. Here are the results:

Stage: Battlefield (Final Destination version)
Move being used: Mega Upper/Mega Man's Up Tilt (All Completely Fresh)
Vectoring Direction: Straight Down
Testing: Vertical KOs

Opponent: Link (heaviest demo character)
KO percentage without vectoring 150% Mega (max rage): 68%
KO percentage without vectoring 0% Mega (no rage): 87%
KO percentage with vectoring 150% Mega (max rage): 104%
KO percentage with vectoring 0% Mega (no rage): 129%

Opponent: Pikachu (lightest demo character)
KO percentage without vectoring 150% Mega (max rage): 58%
KO percentage without vectoring 0% Mega (no rage): 75%
KO percentage with vectoring 150% Mega (max rage): 88%
KO percentage with vectoring 0% Mega (no rage): 110%

Results: Link
KO percentage difference w/o Max Rage (vectoring and not vectoring): 129% - 87% = 42%
KO percentage difference with Max Rage (vectoring and not vectoring): 104% - 68% = 36%
KO percentage difference w/o Vectoring (no rage and max rage): 87% - 68% = 19%
KO percentage difference with Vectoring (no rage and max rage): 129% - 104% = 25%
Maximum percentage KO minus Minimum percentage KO: 129% - 68% = 61%

Results: Pikachu
KO percentage difference w/o Max Rage (vectoring and not vectoring): 110% - 75% = 35%
KO percentage difference with Max Rage (vectoring and not vectoring): 88% - 58% = 30%
KO percentage difference w/o Vectoring (no rage and max rage): 75% - 58% = 17%
KO percentage difference with Vectoring (no rage and max rage): 110% - 88% = 22%
Maximum percentage KO minus Minimum percentage KO: 110% - 58% = 52%

Results: Link (heavyweight) vs Pikachu (lightweight) weight comparison
KO percentage comparison without vectoring 150% Mega: 68% - 58% = 10% difference
KO percentage comparison without vectoring 0% Mega: 87% - 75% = 12% difference
KO percentage comparison with vectoring 150% Mega: 104% - 88% = 16% difference
KO percentage comparison with vectoring 0% Mega: 129% - 110% = 19% difference

---

Final Results for Vectoring:
Vectoring influence w/o Max Rage: 35% to 42% (extremely rough estimate)
Vectoring influence with Max Rage: 30% to 36% (extremely rough estimate)
Vectoring influence on Vertical KO percent overall: 30% to 42% (extremely rough estimate)

Final Results for Max Rage:
Max Rage influence w/o Vectoring: 17% to 19% (extremely rough estimate)
Max Rage influence with Vectoring: 22% to 25% (extremely rough estimate)
Max Rage influence on Vertical KO percent overall: 17% to 25% (extremely rough estimate)

Maximum percentage KO minus Minimum percentage KO difference: 52% to 61% (extremely rough estimate)


All testing was done on the Smash 3DS Demo version. Credit to @ san. for helping me out. (Posted this on the Vectoring topic as well)

 

[Black Mantis]

So in summary what does that mean?

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Pivot tilting was always in the game. I forget if it was in Brawl but if it wasn't then its good its back.
Dashes could always be canceled with shield
Stutter stepping as in spinning around and around?
Crouch canceling is a defensive option so re-adding goes with what I was saying about the multitude of new defensive options added without adding new offense options or movement.
Ledge stuff being nerfed doesn't tie into the point I was making which was about combos
And what special new methods are there to remove lag from air dodges or attacks? If you are talking about doing it high enough that they end before you hit the ground that has been around since the beginning of the game or when they were first introduced.

The airdodging lag is a welcomed change from Brawl so I'll give you that. No gliding is also good.

Stutter-stepping refers to tapping forward to almost start a dash before you hit A to initiate the charge for a Smash Attack. If timed right, you'll move forward a little and the input will still register as a Forward Smash instead of a Dash Attack.
Pivot-tilts were definitely not in Brawl unless it was something that could be jump-cancelled.
Also there's a difference between an attack fully ending and not ending up in landing lag, and an attack auto-cancelling and not ending up in landing lag. An auto-cancel essentially gives you an extra window wherein you can land during the attack's endlag and not suffer landing lag.

As for this whole Rage Effect thing, that won't necessarily screw up your combos, but it will probably mean that you have to be careful because if your opponent comes back from a KO while you still have high Rage active, you'll need your combo moves to be stale to make up for the difference in knockback. This could easily change the meta in regards to stages that have damageable stage hazards, or characters that generate targetable props for their moves; you might want to try attacking them to stale your moves without adding to the opponent's percent. I think those kinds of tactics have been a thing since Brawl, however.

 

[san.]

So in summary what does that mean?

Heavy characters can survive weaker hits better than lighter characters. The stronger the attack, the less VI will help you in terms of % difference compared to no VI. Rage mechanics help, but aren't as significant as VI.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

So in summary what does that mean?

it means the game is rewarding you for not being ****

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Hey guys remember when Brawl changed the mechanics of DI in such a way that DIing directly towards the opponent could be an optimal solution and it altered the game for the worse

me neither

most of you probably didn't even know that DI in Brawl was different than Melee

squares, circles, whatever, I don't care. It's all just info to compile to be the best Smash 4 player possible. If it turns out that I need to start altering my DI based on both my % and my opponent % and need to alter my DI based on what trajectory AND what knockback I want, that just adds more for me to get better at. For those that don't want to get excited about the new stuff, you can keep getting d-throw -> u-tilted to 60% by mario. I'm going to vector down and jab him.

Brawl DI is different than Melee DI? I didn't know about that! Link (no, not this guy ) to info please?

Oh also, if Mario predicts you to VI down he can just throw one less UTilt into the combo and go for a DTilt > FTilt afterward instead. It does prevent him from regrabbing though, as he needs to land two UTilts to beat out the anti-grab timer, and DTilt will put you too far away for a grab as his grab in Smash 4 has like no horizontal range. And if you VI down at too high a percent, or possibly when Mario's percent is too high thanks to the Rage Effect, you could end up making his combo work when it otherwise wouldn't.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

it means the game is rewarding you for not being ****

Expanding on this because this post is vague:

Vectoring + slightly larger blastzones = living longer

Rage = more knockback at relatively high percents

In a 1 vs 1 with two people on 130%, if one KO's the other, then the KO'd player loses their rage bonus which makes it more difficult to KO the other opponent while NOT affecting combos and strings at low percents.

I think that KI/VI/DI and Rage were mechanics implemented to compliment each other

 

[Black Mantis]

it means the game is rewarding you for not being ****

and I love games that do.

edit side note: It sometimes amazes me how some smashers have no real knowledge of traditional fighting game mechanics. Someone had to literally explain to @ Praxis current rage meter styles in modern fighters. Do you people play/watch/have general knowledge of traditional fighters at all (of course this does not apply to everyone in this thread, but to those who complained about the mechanic it does apply)? This technique has been around since the 90's going back to the days of Samurai Showdown and is one of the many common staples of traditional fighters. There has never really been a game where rage factor is overwhleming (in Tekken the set point was set to 5% from 10% due to fan complaints). To those saying it makes things easier fail to understand that this is not a cover for bad players/those who lack knowledge of the game. No amount of "comeback mechanic" will allow me to beat Daigo in Ultra Street Fighter 4 because even beyond the mechanic he understands the game on a vastly deeper level than myself. The same logic applies to this mechanic in smash.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Surviving longer = playing badly?

Ok

Look at Praxis' post. That exemplifies how this mechanic effects gameplay.

It rewards the bad player for playing badly and punishes the good player for playing well. High percent is SUPPOSE to be at a disadvantage, that's how the game was founded in the first place. By encouraging a campy playstyle you are making the game less skill-based and less rewarding to those who practice. Even in a world where everyone is equal in skill it still makes it so character MUs become less prevalent by assisting campy characters like Diddy Kong and Mega Man and making it harder for aggressive characters to press their advantage. This unseats match-ups and is unfair to both skilled players, and to aggro characters.

 

[Chiroz]

Look at Praxis' post. That exemplifies how this mechanic effects gameplay.

It rewards the bad player for playing badly and punishes the good player for playing well. High percent is SUPPOSE to be at a disadvantage, that's how the game was founded in the first place. By encouraging a campy playstyle you are making the game less skill-based and less rewarding to those who practice. Even in a world where everyone is equal in skill it still makes it so character MUs become less prevalent by assisting campy characters like Diddy Kong and Mega Man and making it harder for aggressive characters to press their advantage. This unseats match-ups and is unfair to both skilled players, and to aggro characters.

Unfortunately for you, Praxis argument wasn't correct on how these things actually work. Even though your opponent might get the boost first, you will also get the boost at some point unless you die early. This doesn't reward the "losing" player it rewards the player who survives the longest. Which is a skill. So this mechanic actually does reward the better player (or the heaviest I guess).

Also I don't get why this would "encourage" a campy playstyle at all. Actually I feel this mechanic helps camping stop earlier as normally you want to camp until your opponent is at kill %. If your damage also influences then he will get to kill % earlier. On the other hand it's harder to fight camping when you want to build damage on a camping opponent instead of just landing a kill blow as getting many hits is harder than getting 1 hit. This will make it so that your own damage also counts towards his kill % which actually makes the transition from "damage building" to kill % happen much sooner thus making camping last shorter.

Basically it makes camping shorter for both the camper and the campee's point of view.

 

[Praxis]

Unfortunately for you, Praxis argument wasn't correct on how these things actually work. Even though your opponent might get the boost first, you will also get the boost at some point unless you die early. This doesn't reward the "losing" player it rewards the player who survives the longest. Which is a skill. So this mechanic actually does reward the better player (or the heaviest I guess).

Also I don't get why this would "encourage" a campy playstyle at all. Actually I feel this mechanic helps camping stop earlier as normally you want to camp until your opponent is at kill %. If your damage also influences then he will get to kill % earlier. On the other hand it's harder to fight camping when you want to build damage on a camping opponent instead of just landing a kill blow as getting many hits is harder than getting 1 hit. This will make it so that your own damage also counts towards his kill % which actually makes the transition from "damage building" to kill % happen much sooner thus making camping last shorter.

Basically it makes camping shorter for both the camper and the campee's point of view.

At no point did I get the mechanics wrong. Stop claiming this. I understood and still understand the mechanics. We established that you thought my phrasing would mislead people, so I have corrected that.

This is still an anticompetitive mechanic.

Rage means the player with higher perentage has a better chance of getting a kill than he should. This redues the benefit of the damage done.

Player 1 does 150% damage on his opponent.

Player 2 does 100% damage on his opponent.

However, the game rewards Player 2 by allowing him to kill his opponent as if he had done 120% damage (to pick a number), because he has increased knockback. And if he lands that kill, now player 1 respawns with weaker KO ability.


This mechanic reduces the reward a player earns by landing damage. It rewards the player to earn the first kill by giving him increased knockbac, but I'm not sure if that's a great reward- it impairs his ability to combo.


You say the mechanic is evenly given, but it's not. The game operates on a stock basis. It allows the losing player a stronger chance of getting the first kill, and then further punishes that player who had the early lead with reduced knockback on respawn (now he can't kill the person who killed him because of rubber banding easily).

We're fortunate the effects are weak, because this mechanic is anticompetitive. It basically means at all times the player who is closer to death has a better chance of getting a kill than he has earned.

edit side note: It sometimes amazes me how some smashers have no real knowledge of traditional fighting game mechanics. Someone had to literally explain to @ Praxis current rage meter styles in modern fighters.

Having forgotten about X-factor in MvC3 and Revenge Meter in Street Fighter 4 being similar are valid mistakes, but it doesn't mean I had no knowledge of it.

I stand by rubber banding mechanics being bad competitive game design. Revenge Meter is tame enough to not ruin the game (as is, I suspect, Smash 4's Rage mechanic), and X-Factor is in a game that the players generally accept to be broken and is still complained about a lot.

This is not a feature that is accepted as good in other fighting games. These kinds of mechanics are generally bad design, but also generally accepted because casuals like it and in good games they are weak in prevalence.

Long lasting games like Chess, Poker, Magic, Starcraft, and heck, Street Fighter II and MvC2, don't have mechanics like this. It's a modern phenomenon in new fighters that is not considered a good thing by anybody, but usually (except in X-Factor) not enough of a big deal to ruin the game. I'm sure Smash 4 will be in the latter category, but it's still sad to see it added.

 

[Chiroz]

At no point did I get the mechanics wrong. Stop claiming this. I understood and still understand the mechanics. We established that you thought my phrasing would mislead people, so I have corrected that.

This is still an anticompetitive mechanic.

Rage means the player with higher perentage has a better chance of getting a kill than he should. This redues the benefit of the damage done.

Player 1 does 150% damage on his opponent.

Player 2 does 100% damage on his opponent.

However, the game rewards Player 2 by allowing him to kill his opponent as if he had done 120% damage (to pick a number), because he has increased knockback. And if he lands that kill, now player 1 respawns with weaker KO ability.


This mechanic reduces the reward a player earns by landing damage. It rewards the player to earn the first kill by giving him increased knockbac, but I'm not sure if that's a great reward- it impairs his ability to combo.


You say the mechanic is evenly given, but it's not. The game operates on a stock basis. It allows the losing player a stronger chance of getting the first kill, and then further punishes that player who had the early lead with reduced knockback on respawn (now he can't kill the person who killed him because of rubber banding easily).

We're fortunate the effects are weak, because this mechanic is anticompetitive. It basically means at all times the player who is closer to death has a better chance of getting a kill than he has earned.

The rage is also benefitting the player at 100% allowing him to KO his opponent like he was at 164%. You can't ignore one fact while showing the other.

If the first player dies first then the mechanic keeps rewarding the player who was able to survive the longest at high % which IS a skill and it IS rewarding the player on the lead. Once first player kills the second player the second player will also go through the state of "0 rage". Controlling when this 0 rage stage happens is ALSO part of being skilled enough to deal damage to your opponent while being 1 hit away from dying.

You say you understand the mechanic yet you describe it as something it's clearly not.



Again, if I were to give 200 bucks to a person with 1 million dollars and another with 1 thousand dollars and the one with 1 thousand dollars suddenly makes those 200 bucks into a billion dollars (while the other wasn't able to invest it) that was his own merit and skill. They both got the 200 dollars only one of them was able to use it more effectively.




I understand your second argument though that this mechanic rewards a player for something he hasn't earned. This is a valid argument, although I feel it's not a big deal considering it makes KOing at lower percents. I would say it's the same as buffing both characters by the same amount, players don't "earn" their characters getting buffed/nerfed (unless the character is OP or bad), they are buffed to keep a certain match pace.

But the mechanic is rewarding both players exactly the same as long as they achieve the same goals and as such it isn't a comeback mechanic and it isn't "anticompetitive".

 

[RanserSSF4]

Seriously, I’m tired of this.

I read the competitive subforum in order to learn, just like hundreds of lurkers. Smashboards is a wonderful source of information, where pretty much all the new mechanics and techniques are discovered and posted first. I can’t be thankful enough to all these people who, through testing and analyzing data, find out new mechanics. They’re really those who make the metagame advance.

Sadly, not everybody is willing to make meaningful contributions. Every time there is a relevant discovery, people complain from the very first page of the post, instead of exploring the possibilities and implications of the finding. Claiming how the changes are highly detrimental to the metagame the same day they’re discovered, barely with any tournament data, is by no means a positive contribution. Explaining how the game should be to fit your personal tastes isn’t even relevant.

This kind of pointless discussion goes on in every page of the thread, making harder to find useful data or analysis (for example, any Aerodrome post in this thread) and giviing a really bad impression to people entering the competitive scene. It’s obstructing the development of the metagame, rather than helping. And I’m pretty sure that everybody here wants to see how competitive Smash 4 finally turns out.


tl;dr: Finding new mechanics and exploring their applications to create optimal strategies will develop the metagame. Your subjective opinion won’t.

By the far the best, most intelligent comment I've ever seen on Smashboards and I agree with everything on this post.

 

[Black Mantis]

This is not a feature that is accepted as good in other fighting games. These kinds of mechanics are generally bad design, but also generally accepted because casuals like it and in good games they are weak in prevalence.

http://iplaywinner.com/news/2012/3/...capcom-vs-snk-2-is-one-of-the-best-games.html

has K-Groove in it and is considered one of the best fighters ever

 

[Noa.]

The rage mechanic doesn't really function as a comeback mechanic because the knockback you gain from being at a higher percent is less than the knockback your opponent gains from you being at a higher percent. It is still more advantageous to be at a lower percent in comparison to you opponent when both of you are trying to kill each other. It does decrease the advantage you get from racking on percent on your opponent, but you still have an advantage none the less.

However the rage mechanic gives an advantage to whoever gets the first kill. I expect that while the KO difference from being at 100 to 150 is pretty small, it is more noticeable from 150 to 0. And with increased knockback you can keep your opponent away from you.

Rage reduces the advantage you used to get from putting your opponent at a higher percent, and increases the advantage you get from getting the first kill. The rage mechanic is a comeback mechanic if the advantage you lose from getting your opponent to a higher percent is more than the advantage you gain from getting the first ko. If the advantage you gain is bigger, than it's helping more skilled players. We'll see how it plays out.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Rage means the player with higher perentage has a better chance of getting a kill than he should. This redues the benefit of the damage done.

Player 1 does 150% damage on his opponent.

Player 2 does 100% damage on his opponent.

However, the game rewards Player 2 by allowing him to kill his opponent as if he had done 120% damage (to pick a number), because he has increased knockback.

Like, 6 points of knockback? That's like a 3 or 4% difference.

Aha.

Ahahahaha!

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Edit: Read this: http://smashboards.com/threads/new-mechanic-the-rage-effect.368987/#post-17614430

Actually ****ING read it pls

REPENT SINNER. REPENT THOUGH IT SHALL SAVE YOU NOT.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I hate this mechanic. I don't like handholding. If we wanted comebacks, Sakurai could have added better hitstun, allowing us to make crazy combos. Handholding us by making every move a kill move is babying down the game AND there are better ways to increase comeback potential (like the aforementioned combos, or nerfing recoveries as they're ridiculous now).

 

[Chiroz]

I hate this mechanic. I don't like handholding. If we wanted comebacks, Sakurai could have added better hitstun, allowing us to make crazy combos. Handholding us by making every move a kill move is babying down the game AND there are better ways to increase comeback potential (like the aforementioned combos, or nerfing recoveries as they're ridiculous now).

Read the post above you and then the one above that one and then my own comment 3 posts above. Once you get yourself informed then comment.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Read the post above you and then the one above that one and then my own comment 3 posts above. Once you get yourself informed then comment.

Still unneccesary mechanic. If Sakurai wanted comeback potential THAT MUCH, he would not add such a minimal mechanic.
Also this kinda ruins Lucario's trait. It makes him not stand out as much

 

[Chiroz]

Still unneccesary mechanic. If Sakurai wanted comeback potential THAT MUCH, he would not add such a minimal mechanic.
Also this kinda ruins Lucario's trait. It makes him not stand out as much

It's not a comeback mechanic and it's not "THAT MUCH" it barely has any difference in the game at all. It doesn't provide comebacks on the opposite it will probably make same stock fights feel much "closer" but once you take a stock it will act as the opposite of a "comeback" mechanic.

The effect is so small it doesn't matter either way, but you are wrong calling it a comeback mechanic. Read the posts I mentioned so you can understand it better.

 

[Overswarm]

What I find most interesting is that this mechanic seems to only benefit those who are winning longer. It's less a "comeback mechanic" and more a "winner keeps on winning mechanic".

If you live to 150% it is infinitely more likely that your opponent has simply been unable to kill you for whatever reason and that you have actually killed them. Furthermore, the difference between a 150% and 0% opponent can be seen as substantial (16 points of knockback) but a more reasonable difference between 150% and 100% or 125% is relatively minor (3-7 points of knockback).... and you don't gain a single point of knockback addition until you are at 40% (!).

This means that the player who kills his opponents first is able to kill them with what is essentially 16 extra points of knockback, essentially allowing strong players to eliminate their opponents faster.

 

[Black Mantis]

the person in this video is using the k groove (its related to the rage system in this game). is the mechanic holding his hand allowing him to win. Obviously not.

 

[Chiroz]

What I find most interesting is that this mechanic seems to only benefit those who are winning longer. It's less a "comeback mechanic" and more a "winner keeps on winning mechanic".

If you live to 150% it is infinitely more likely that your opponent has simply been unable to kill you for whatever reason and that you have actually killed them. Furthermore, the difference between a 150% and 0% opponent can be seen as substantial (16 points of knockback) but a more reasonable difference between 150% and 100% or 125% is relatively minor (3-7 points of knockback).... and you don't gain a single point of knockback addition until you are at 40% (!).

This means that the player who kills his opponents first is able to kill them with what is essentially 16 extra points of knockback, essentially allowing strong players to eliminate their opponents faster.

Exactly.

But as long as both players are around the same skill level in terms of survival all this mechanic does is allow both players to kill faster. Even if it is very slightly faster.

 

[san.]

This will alleviate high % players being unable to hit with much since the 0 % player could retaliate through the hitstun (based on what I see of 0% gameplay in Smash 4 so far).

 

[Praxis]

This means that the player who kills his opponents first is able to kill them with what is essentially 16 extra points of knockback, essentially allowing strong players to eliminate their opponents faster.

Doesn't this just mean that the strong player who kills his opponent first will have a hard time comboing on the next stock because he has extra knockback? Remember, it doesn't improve damage output.

Like, 6 points of knockback? That's like a 3 or 4% difference.

Aha.

Ahahahaha!

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Edit: Read this: http://smashboards.com/threads/new-mechanic-the-rage-effect.368987/#post-17614430

Actually ****ING read it pls

REPENT SINNER. REPENT THOUGH IT SHALL SAVE YOU NOT.

I will fully agree that, with your data, it thankfully looks like the effect will be too small to make a big difference most of the time. It definitely doesn't ruin the game, because it's so light. I still think it's an anticompetitive mechanic, but it looks like it has just been implemented so lightly that it won't affect gameplay enough to complain about.

Thank you for your diligent work

 

[Chiroz]

Doesn't this just mean that the strong player who kills his opponent first will have a hard time comboing on the next stock because he has extra knockback? Remember, it doesn't improve damage output.


I will fully agree that, with your data, it thankfully looks like the effect will be too small to make a big difference most of the time. It definitely doesn't ruin the game, because it's so light. I still think it's an anticompetitive mechanic, but it looks like it has just been implemented so lightly that it won't affect gameplay enough to complain about.

Thank you for your diligent work

4% extra of almost no knockback is still almost no knockback. I don't think it will affect combos very much if at all. It might help you if you survive long enough to get your opponent to high % again while you're still very high %.